Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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bobinho
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by bobinho » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:46 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The government is the body that negotiated brexit - not parliament. The government is the body that put forward a deal deemed so bad that many of its own MPs voted against it. And now the government is failing to agree any kind of compromise with the EU to get a deal done - not parliament. The government took three years to get us where we are now - not parliament. The government had a working majority in parliament, and the government threw that away - not parliament. How much more evidence do you need held in front of your face before you realise how utterly inept this government has been?
I’m not saying they aren’t inept...

The government put forward three different deals (not largely different I’ll give you) to parliament. Parliament rejected them. Why? Because the majority of parliament are remainders.
The government took three years to get this far why? Because parliament rejected. All in the name of (hopefully) getting the whole thing written off as impossible. And what’s the governments working majority got to do with anything? Even with DC’s majority the deals wouldn’t have gone thru.
I don’t need anything held in front of my face, that would just really annoy me. A lot.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:55 pm

bobinho wrote:I’m not saying they aren’t inept...

The government put forward three different deals (not largely different I’ll give you) to parliament. Parliament rejected them. Why? Because the majority of parliament are remainders.
The government took three years to get this far why? Because parliament rejected. All in the name of (hopefully) getting the whole thing written off as impossible. And what’s the governments working majority got to do with anything? Even with DC’s majority the deals wouldn’t have gone thru.
I don’t need anything held in front of my face, that would just really annoy me. A lot.
This is rubbish. The govt ignored any cross party talks and put a deal together based on their own red lines to appease their own hard liners which was never going to get support from the opposition.

Now as the govt had a majority then all they had to do was present a deal that their own party and the DUP would support and so could completely ignore the rest of parliament

The govt was so inept and so at the mercy of the ERG they failed to do this simplest of tasks and that is why we are still trying to leave 3 years on.

Had the govt looked to have cross party talks and MPs from Labour and the Lib Dems had been obstructive to the process you might have a point but unfortunately this didnt happen
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claretspice
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claretspice » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:03 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is a total misunderstanding of the real world. Technically, legally, correct. But not reality.

Reality is that vetos only give you bargaining power. If the other 27 countries are desperate for you to vote with them they will either offer something to prevent your veto, or threaten you in some way. That’s why we haven’t vetoed much over the years.

A perfect example of why Cameron was being disingenuous when he talked of the veto in the context of the EU army, or Turkey entering. Does anyone really think he would have had the balls to use it? Just some threat for Frankfurt to pinch the City of London and we would have backed down. The trouble is, all these quid pro quos haven’t left the U.K. any richer. The rich thrive, the middle class enjoy their lattes, the poor stagnate.

That’s why we needed a referendum. We were right to have it. We were right to vote out.
This post is choc-full of hypothetical bogey men. Most obviously the Turkey thing, which was one of the great scandals of the last campaign - both sides made claims that didn't really stand scrutiny, but none were as appalling as that one. The Frankfurt thing is just paranoid nonsense.

As for the use of vetos more generally - the compromise time and again has been the UK opting out of closer union, like Schengen, and the Euro. We've not vetoed it, we've just stopped on the sidelines.

That *is* what has happened in the real world.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:03 pm

Biggest problem I have with all of this is that one side is rewriting history every time they get stopped.

No Deal hasn't been a democratic option since 2017, but its bought back time and time again by the same group of zealots who refuse to accept that their vision isn't followed by a majority.

Its doing far more damage to the UK than anything else.
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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:06 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think parents are number one when it comes to loving their children, but the reason we have teachers (and doctors) is because these people are highly trained in what they do. You wouldn't turn to a doctor and say; "thank you for your advice, but I'm afraid my wife and I, who know best, don't agree"
You would if you thought your child was getting the wrong treatment. If your knowledge of your child leads you to believe the doctor has got the wrong end of the stick, you would find another doctor.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:31 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is a total misunderstanding of the real world. Technically, legally, correct. But not reality.

Reality is that vetos only give you bargaining power. If the other 27 countries are desperate for you to vote with them they will either offer something to prevent your veto, or threaten you in some way. That’s why we haven’t vetoed much over the years.

A perfect example of why Cameron was being disingenuous when he talked of the veto in the context of the EU army, or Turkey entering. Does anyone really think he would have had the balls to use it? Just some threat for Frankfurt to pinch the City of London and we would have backed down. The trouble is, all these quid pro quos haven’t left the U.K. any richer. The rich thrive, the middle class enjoy their lattes, the poor stagnate.

That’s why we needed a referendum. We were right to have it. We were right to vote out.
In the real world we aren’t part of the schengen area and don’t use the Euro.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:38 pm

dsr wrote:For one thing, I expect your opinion would be different if your local school was poor-to-terrible. In that case, you would be glad of an overabundance of places rather than being forced into the closest school regardless of how bad it was.

For another, you and I seem to have different opinions as to who are the "experts" in bringing up your daughter. Without even knowing you, I say you are the expert in bringing up your daughter. Not the Education authorities.
Is every parent the “expert” in bringing up their own children?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Erasmus » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:44 pm

Android, sorry about the John McDonald thing. I actually wrote John McD but my phone changed it wrongly.

And if you are going to continue to insist that McDonnell is a Marxist then you will have to define what you mean by a Marxist. I know you said you are not very strong on political theory but if you are going to attach value-laden term to a person you ought to have enough knowledge of political theory to be able to define what that term means.

Otherwise it's just Daily Mail stuff isn't it? I also recall that you said you didn't need to know what Marxism is because of self-definition. But then I found a quote from him in which he talks about himself as a 'democratic socialist'. A knowledge of political theory would show that democratic socialists are not Marxists, although they may share some of Marx's ideas.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:45 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Labour activist who works for Emily Thornberry, he speak with forked tongue.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/ ... 1349892096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hearing unconfirmed reports that the man in that video in the hospital was sacked by the Times for making up quotes in a story, and by Michael Howard for lying about having an affair, and once conspired to get a journalist beaten up.

Can anyone confirm?

(stolen unashamedly from twitter)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:49 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hearing unconfirmed reports that the man in that video in the hospital was sacked by the Times for making up quotes in a story, and by Michael Howard for lying about having an affair, and once conspired to get a journalist beaten up.

Can anyone confirm?

(stolen unashamedly from twitter)
Sounds like Prime Minister material.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:50 pm

Greenmile wrote:Is every parent the “expert” in bringing up their own children?
Unless they are hopeless ones like one or two who have been on TV recently, then yes, the best experts on any child are its parents.
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android
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not denying that he regards himself as a Marxist. But his parties plans are more Northern European socialist than marxist. I've even acknowledged that there is a risk that they would move further to the left in the event of a successful govt.

Your first line though is pretty telling. You could use that with a lot more justification for the current UK government but your side of the debate doesn't.
Not sure what your last bit means, especially as I wasn't really debating anything other than pointing out that Mcdonnell is a Marxist. Surely you are not suggesting that the current government is more extreme than Marxism!? Johnson is seen as a liberal Conservative and seems keen to spend more money (always has seemed this way inclined based on past criticisms of his predecessors and it will presumably be borne out in the Queen's speech if our courts let him deliver it!)) so hardly far right is he!? I guess it's more likely you were thinking only of Brexit where moderation is in short supply on all sides.

Hope nil is right that there is no prospect of a Corbyn led majority government but I'm not complacent.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hearing unconfirmed reports that the man in that video in the hospital was sacked by the Times for making up quotes in a story, and by Michael Howard for lying about having an affair, and once conspired to get a journalist beaten up.

Can anyone confirm?

(stolen unashamedly from twitter)
Confirmed, but the guy pretending to be a member of the public was wearing a mic.

(stole unashamedly from twitter)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Gunnar Beck German MEP sees through the sculduggery of the EU

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:40 pm

If it be your will wrote:It's really difficult now they've been pushed so firmly into the remain corner. A policy of a 3-way AV referendum (no deal/ remain/ negotiated deal) with MPs given a free pass to campaign for any of these would be intellectually coherent, but that would be seen as a reversal from their overt remain stance, causing fury amongst full on remainers. I can't see how, electorally, they can take this path anymore. As such I can't see this happening.

But they have to think of something to replace the current policy. The current one is disastrous.
I don't think they've ever had an overt remain stance. I think a second referendum commitment would sway most remain voters (and those it wouldn't would probably be voting Lib Dem anyway). I think it would more likely alienate leave voters who are convinced that people can't change their minds and really don't want a second referendum.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:47 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I made a mistake regards the Dame Laura Cox inquiry that looked into bullying and inappropriate sexual behaviour. It wasn't her that said "The fish always rots from the head" when referring to john Bercow and the culture inside Westminster. It was 2 female MPs, one a northern Irish one (I think) and also jess Philips (again I think)

Either way, it's not a very complimentary thing to be said about someone at the very heart of the democratic process is it?

Anyway, you now, finally, accept that rises in the cost of food and goods disproportionately affects the lowest paid. Despite trying to wriggle out of admitting previously, by using average wage rises and RPI !

So it just leaves you to confirm whether or not millions of the lowest paid , who have as you now concede, been disproportionately affected by the rise in prices of food, goods and fuel, during the 40 odd years of membership of the Common Market/European Market. Voted to leave in the 2016 referendum?

Yes

Or

No?
Indeed. Not complimentary but the point was more that you tend to play fast and loose with "facts".

Anyway, you now, finally, accept that rises in the cost of food and goods disproportionately affects the lowest paid.

I've never not accepted that. What I'm waiting for is your evidence that the cost of food and goods has risen in real terms for the lowest paid.

The answer to your third question is yes, it's a matter of record.

However, your issue is that you have taken three discrete questions and tried to link them by putting them in the same post. In reality, unless you provide the evidence as above there is a disconnect in your argument.

Also, I note that you have refused to answer 2 of my questions. I assume you're trying to reconcile answering those questions correctly or sticking with your earlier statements that contradict the answers.

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Could you point me to the page in the labour manifesto that said " we will seize the order paper and conspire with tory party MPs that stood on manifesto pledges that said "no deal is better than a bad deal" and force a prime minister to request an extension of article 50 . The same article 50 that we by a massive majority voted for.

I'm struggling to find it!

And as for your throw away comment "on the surface you may be voting for a party, manifesto, a PM, etc". If you're going to try and say once they , on the basis of that manifesto promise to their voting constituents, become our "elected representatives" . They can just toddle off down to London and do what ever they want, regardless of their manifesto pledges. Then why have a bloody manifesto to stand on in the first place!!! :roll:

The manifestos are the basis on which voters differentiate between one candidate and the next!

If they're gonna tear it up and and act as "best as they see fit" Then the manifesto pledges on which they were elected arent worth the paper they were written on.

They should stand as independents.
I think the bit you're looking for is We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge for the economy. It was in my previous post, not sure how you missed it.

MPs are still judged by their manifestos, it is just done retrospectively. Pretty much no party has ever achieved all the stuff in their manifesto but next time round the voters will look at what they did achieve those promises and decide whether they're going to vote their MP in again.

The LibDems ventured too far from what they had promised and next time round suffered badly.

What if a party that you hadn't voted for was elected as a government. Then wanting to bring in some extreme measures that you, and the majority if the People thought were outrageous, decided because they were acting "as best as they saw fit" decided to suspend all general elections for the next 20 years or something like that, if not exactly that. Would that be acceptable aggi. ?

It wouldn't be acceptable but that's why we have checks and balances such as the Lords, the Supreme Court, requiring a majority vote, etc.

It's a pretty poor example because in reality there's nothing to stop that happening now. What would most likely stop it would be MPs rebelling against their party and not voting it through.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:35 pm

You do realise you’re being “schooled” don’t you aggi?

KateR
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:37 pm

AndrewJB wrote:What kind of concessions outside of the ones they made do you think the EU could have made for Cameron in 2016?

And if you seriously think the Tories are a party for ordinary people, what have they done for them?

Comrade Andrew, very sorry and humbly apologize, clearly Cameron never asked for any concessions within the new treaty proposed, he was obviously on a jolly, I should have realized, him being a Tory and everything you hate.

Again my apologies, I can not list what the Tories have done for the ordinary people, it's obviously nothing. My foolish mistake was believing that some of those millions of people voting for the Tory party in numerous elections over numerous years that there might be a few ordinary people who actually voted from them. Those people whom I have talked to over the years in the pubs and within my family are clearly not ordinary people, they are obviously dressing down and infiltrating the unwashed masses just to try and confuse them in there thinking. Easily done as you continue to confuse me in my thinking with your thought provoking questions and by oversimplifying things for a stupid women like me, I thank you, as it really helps me in understanding the type of person I was trying to have dialogue and debate with.

All this talk of the very few people in the top 1% of earners, (obviously Tory People) meant I foolishly thought as we moved down the pay scale there must be ordinary working people voting for them.

I would also like it if you are able to educate me further in giving me some highlights as to what the Labour Party has done for the ordinary people and while you are at that, perhaps you could also, just for me edification, provide me with the agreed definition of ordinary people. Are they working people, would this dismiss any students or retired people for example. Also is there a kind of pay bracket below/above when one becomes a working man as apposed to say a Tory voter, is there in addition some form of educational attainment which separates Tory voters from ordinary people.

I look forward to your response in order to further understand how politics works before I get back to my cleaning and ironing.

I really wish I would have had parents like you instead of those that encouraged me to think for myself, that way I could have flown the Red Flag and have understood my upbringing demanded that I vote for the ordinary persons party

Regards Comrade

Kate

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:40 pm

KateR wrote:Comrade Andrew, very sorry and humbly apologize, clearly Cameron never asked for any concessions within the new treaty proposed, he was obviously on a jolly, I should have realized, him being a Tory and everything you hate.

Again my apologies, I can not list what the Tories have done for the ordinary people, it's obviously nothing. My foolish mistake was believing that some of those millions of people voting for the Tory party in numerous elections over numerous years that there might be a few ordinary people who actually voted from them. Those people whom I have talked to over the years in the pubs and within my family are clearly not ordinary people, they are obviously dressing down and infiltrating the unwashed masses just to try and confuse them in there thinking. Easily done as you continue to confuse me in my thinking with your thought provoking questions and by oversimplifying things for a stupid women like me, I thank you, as it really helps me in understanding the type of person I was trying to have dialogue and debate with.

All this talk of the very few people in the top 1% of earners, (obviously Tory People) meant I foolishly thought as we moved down the pay scale there must be ordinary working people voting for them.

I would also like it if you are able to educate me further in giving me some highlights as to what the Labour Party has done for the ordinary people and while you are at that, perhaps you could also, just for me edification, provide me with the agreed definition of ordinary people. Are they working people, would this dismiss any students or retired people for example. Also is there a kind of pay bracket below/above when one becomes a working man as apposed to say a Tory voter, is there in addition some form of educational attainment which separates Tory voters from ordinary people.

I look forward to your response in order to further understand how politics works before I get back to my cleaning and ironing.

I really wish I would have had parents like you instead of those that encouraged me to think for myself, that way I could have flown the Red Flag and have understood my upbringing demanded that I vote for the ordinary persons party

Regards Comrade

Kate
I see you’ve shifted from patronising (your first post) to outraged faux hillbilly. I suppose anything to avoid an actual conversation.
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If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:47 pm

aggi wrote:I don't think they've ever had an overt remain stance. I think a second referendum commitment would sway most remain voters (and those it wouldn't would probably be voting Lib Dem anyway). I think it would more likely alienate leave voters who are convinced that people can't change their minds and really don't want a second referendum.
You don't think a referendum with their negotiated deal v remain, then campaigning for remain, qualifies as an 'overtly remain' position? Are you/Labour seriously expecting, if that choice was put to the electorate, in those circumstances, 'remain' might actually lose?? Of course not! For a start, very few leavers would even bother to vote in such a referendum. If Labour get in and they keep to that policy, we are remaining. (We do all know that, don't we? Or do we not?)

This is it, remain and leave are talking across a chasm now. Arguments by either side no longer make the remotest sense to the other.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:47 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:People think they are being reasonable about a second referendum which restricts Leave to one variant of it, but they would never consider applying the same logic to Remain (e.g. only Remain if the EU doesn’t integrate any further).

We should call it for what it is - an opportunity to stack the deck and ensure Remain wins in a 2nd vote.
It is patently, unmistakably obvious this is what the vocal remainers are attempting to do. All leavers know this. We all know it has absolutely nothing to do with 'People might have changed their minds' or 'We should compromise (i.e. effectively remain)' garbage, it's all about preventing the enactment of the original result.

But then you and I both want to leave, so we would think that. Just maybe, however hard we try, we are both incapable of seeing it any other way (it really is obvious, though!). I just wish I could be a remainer for 5 minutes to decisively check that all the 'People's vote' campaigners are indeed every bit as insincere as they appear to be, or whether they actually firmly believe what they're saying is fair and true.

(I'm pretty sure had remain won, I'd have quietly accepted the result, completely and unequivocally, though.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:57 pm

If it be your will wrote:It is patently, unmistakably obvious this is what the vocal remainers are attempting to do. All leavers know this. We all know it has absolutely nothing to do with 'People might have changed their minds' or 'We should compromise (i.e. effectively remain)' garbage, it's all about preventing the enactment of the original result.

But then you and I both want to leave, so we would think that. Just maybe, however hard we try, we are both incapable of seeing it any other way (it really is obvious, though!). I just wish I could be a remainer for 5 minutes to decisively check that all the 'People's vote' campaigners are indeed every bit as insincere as they appear to be, or whether they actually firmly believe what they're saying is fair and true.

(I'm pretty sure had remain won, I'd have quietly accepted the result, completely and unequivocally, though.)
The honesty in your second paragraph is gratifying to see. You are the only Brexiteer on here who can look at something and go "maybe we are wrong"

I can't speak for anyone else, but everyone who voted remain that I know just wants a deal that isn't a "No Deal"

And then we are back to the real reason we haven't got one, the "No Deal" zealots who are determined to do whatever they want, whatever the consequences.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:08 pm

If it be your will wrote:You don't think a referendum with their negotiated deal v remain, then campaigning for remain, qualifies as an 'overtly remain' position? Are you/Labour seriously expecting, if that choice was put to the electorate, in those circumstances, 'remain' might actually lose?? Of course not! For a start, very few leavers would even bother to vote in such a referendum. If Labour get in and they keep to that policy, we are remaining. (We do all know that, don't we? Or do we not?)

This is it, remain and leave are talking across a chasm now. Arguments by either side no longer make the remotest sense to the other.
I didn't really get the impression that this was official policy.

The point is that if enough people vote for labour then they're validating the position of a second referendum.

If enough people vote conservative then clearly the people don't want it.

If very few leavers bother to vote then I don't really have a great deal of sympathy.

I wouldn't disagree about that chasm. It started when May decided that a 52:48 split meant that she should listen to the ERG and push for a hard Brexit and it's deteriorated from there.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:10 pm

Reporting incidents of potential domestic abuse.
Getting angry that your sick child is being treated on an underfunded ward.

Not things you are allowed to do unless you agree with the current government position.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:The honesty in your second paragraph is gratifying to see. You are the only Brexiteer on here who can look at something and go "maybe we are wrong"

I can't speak for anyone else, but everyone who voted remain that I know just wants a deal that isn't a "No Deal"

And then we are back to the real reason we haven't got one, the "No Deal" zealots who are determined to do whatever they want, whatever the consequences.
I've been resisting posting in this thread recently,as it's descended into a tit-for-tat spat,however believe me it's not just remain voters that want a deal,many leave voters also want a deal,which incidentally was what was promised during the campaign,certainly no deal wasn't touted as a viable option,now that the Yellowhammer documents have finally been released outlining the problems that could likely ensue in such a scenario,how on earth can anybody think that's still a sensible strategy.

It's the extremes in the Tory party that will stop brexit,as the more they pursue their ideological outcome,the more the opposition will push back,still no new proposals from Downing Street on how to solve the Irish border question,clearly Johnson and Cummings are just running the clock down,and have no intention of finding a compromise.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:32 pm

Erasmus wrote:Android, sorry about the John McDonald thing. I actually wrote John McD but my phone changed it wrongly.

And if you are going to continue to insist that McDonnell is a Marxist then you will have to define what you mean by a Marxist. I know you said you are not very strong on political theory but if you are going to attach value-laden term to a person you ought to have enough knowledge of political theory to be able to define what that term means.

Otherwise it's just Daily Mail stuff isn't it? I also recall that you said you didn't need to know what Marxism is because of self-definition. But then I found a quote from him in which he talks about himself as a 'democratic socialist'. A knowledge of political theory would show that democratic socialists are not Marxists, although they may share some of Marx's ideas.
Not sure what more I can add Ersamus. You need to take it up with John Mcdonnell if you think he is wrong to call himself a Marxist.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:32 pm

aggi wrote:I didn't really get the impression that this was official policy.

The point is that if enough people vote for labour then they're validating the position of a second referendum.

If enough people vote conservative then clearly the people don't want it.

If very few leavers bother to vote then I don't really have a great deal of sympathy.

I wouldn't disagree about that chasm. It started when May decided that a 52:48 split meant that she should listen to the ERG and push for a hard Brexit and it's deteriorated from there.
May didn't push for a hard Brexit. She pushed for her ridiculous deal that would have all the penalties of staying in, plus some extras for luck, while giving up some of the rewards.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Reporting incidents of potential domestic abuse.
Getting angry that your sick child is being treated on an underfunded ward.

Not things you are allowed to do unless you agree with the current government position.
I don't see why the illness of the man's child, or the NHS apparent underfunding, is the responsibility of Boris Johnson. Certainly he ought to look at May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, Callaghan, Wilson, Heath before he blames Johnson.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:35 pm

dsr wrote:May didn't push for a hard Brexit. She pushed for her ridiculous deal that would have all the penalties of staying in, plus some extras for luck, while giving up some of the rewards.
Er, she did.

then took it to the people in 2017 and thats where the dream of a "Hard Brexit" should have died.

I know you don't want to admit it, but zealots like you will drag the country down even further because you are completely incapable of compromise.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:38 pm

OK Lancaster, that's about a hundred mentions you've made in the last week of you wanting a deal. You can have a rest now.
Maybe you are trying too hard. The GE will be with us soon most likely, then you can vote. If I remember correctly you told us you were voting for the Lib Dems.
The party who say they will revoke Brexit if they get a majority.
For me that says it all about where you really stand.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:39 pm

dsr wrote:I don't see why the illness of the man's child, or the NHS apparent underfunding, is the responsibility of Boris Johnson. Certainly he ought to look at May, Cameron, Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, Callaghan, Wilson, Heath before he blames Johnson.
So far down the rabbit hole you can't see what a **** you look posting that.

Sad, but also depressingly predictable.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Er, she did.

then took it to the people in 2017 and thats where the dream of a "Hard Brexit" should have died.

I know you don't want to admit it, but zealots like you will drag the country down even further because you are completely incapable of compromise.
And zealots like you. I know you think you are the voice of reason because you're willing to leave the EU as long as we remain subject to all its rules, but believe me - you're a zealot too.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:42 pm

dsr wrote:And zealots like you. I know you think you are the voice of reason because you're willing to leave the EU as long as we remain subject to all its rules, but believe me - you're a zealot too.
Jesus

You need proper help.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:43 pm

dsr wrote:May didn't push for a hard Brexit. She pushed for her ridiculous deal that would have all the penalties of staying in, plus some extras for luck, while giving up some of the rewards.
I suspect in a few months Brexiteers might look back at May’s deal as the hard Brexit that got away.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You need proper help.
You really are distasteful. I asked it before - are you like this in real life?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:48 pm

What a surprise to see the Liz character rolled out tonight following this afternoons performance.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:48 pm

dsr wrote:You really are distasteful. I asked it before - are you like this in real life?
Yeah, but only with complete knobheads.

I'm perfectly fine with normal people.

Actually, I'll clarify that.

Only with people who threaten what I stand and believe in.

Which is the UK and it continuing to be the beautiful, tolerant country that it is.

You threaten that, even if you pretend to yourself that you don't.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:51 pm

DA, please keep your nose out of things. You may think you are being smart but you're not.
Let Lancaster respond to me if he can
Last edited by Elizabeth on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:54 pm

martin_p wrote:I suspect in a few months Brexiteers might look back at May’s deal as the hard Brexit that got away.
Right, come on martin_p, be completely honest (you can edit your response away a minute later): when you typed that, was it a genuine representation of reality as you see it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:55 pm

I'm reading a lot about a "Special economic zone" for NI to try to get around the backstop, but I'm also reading a lot of head shaking going on from the European experts about how it doesn't go far enough.

There just isn't enough time to do a deal if we stick to the Oct 31st "leave regardless" date.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:56 pm

martin_p wrote:Leave under what terms?
Under the terms that 17.4 million voted for.

Leave the single Market.

Leave the customs union

End free movement of People

End the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

Before you waste your breath telling either-

It's not what they voted for. Or, how do I know? Or, none of that was on the ballot paper.

Dont bother. It's been done to death. On here and everywhere else when it comes to brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:57 pm

If it be your will wrote:Right, come on martin_p, be completely honest (you can edit your response away a minute later): when you typed that, was it a genuine representation of reality as you see it?
It does depend on how the court case ends up I suspect.

if the government wins, you'll be lucky to see parliament back before Oct 31st, and then it will all really kick off.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:59 pm

Elizabeth wrote:DA, please keep your nose out of things. You may think you are being smart but you're not.
Let Lancaster respond to me if he can
Was that edit really worth the effort?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:01 pm

Is that Lancaster replying for martin?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:02 pm

Yes DA because it got to you

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:It does depend on how the court case ends up I suspect.

if the government wins, you'll be lucky to see parliament back before Oct 31st, and then it will all really kick off.
Well I hope to speak for nearly all leavers here, and will welcome any leaver to object if I don't speak for them, but very, very few leavers would mourn the passing of May's deal. It was terrible. Absolutely woeful. That's not the same as saying a close variant of it won't be passed, though. But if it did, we have all - leavers and remainers alike - made a terrible mistake.

(Mala still sticks up for it sometimes, but that's about it)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:03 pm

If it be your will wrote:Right, come on martin_p, be completely honest (you can edit your response away a minute later): when you typed that, was it a genuine representation of reality as you see it?
Absolutely. May’s deal is a hard Brexit. It was everything Farage and co had dreamt of but it was thrown away because you may have had to wait a couple of years for it (having waited a generation for a referendum). The harder the no deal Brexiteers push the less likely it is to happen in my opinion. We’re in a position now where Labour have moved to a referendum in which they’ll support remain and the Lib Dem’s revoke article 50. Unless the Tories can win (or manufacture) a majority at the next election (or Johnson pulls something out of the bag in the next month) then Brexit starts to look as far away as it’s looked since 22nd June 2016.
Last edited by martin_p on Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:03 pm

Absolutely cutting

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Absolutely cutting
That’s you schooled.

Locked