Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:50 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:Plenty of time for that.

Democracy delayed.

Democracy denied.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think the days of blithely saying stuff like "we'll just have an FTA" are well behind us.

What exactly do you mean by an FTA?

How many times do people have to explain this? The title is self explanatory. It's been offered by the EU before but rejected by May presumably because it was not remain.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:54 pm

Oh my god, Guy Verhofstadt has just won social media for all time

"At least one big relief in the Brexit saga: the rule of law in the UK is alive & kicking. Parliaments should never be silenced in a real democracy.

I never want to hear Boris Johnson or any other Brexiteer say again that the European Union is undemocratic."

Ouch!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:54 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:On the day of another crushing defeat.

Really!

I wasnt aware I'd lost anything.

The only thing that is being lost is The Peoples trust in democracy.

Enjoy your open top double decker trip round town to celebrate your "victory"

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:55 pm

summitclaret wrote:How many times do people have to explain this? The title is self explanatory. It's been offered by the EU before but rejected by May presumably because it was not remain.

You've never explained it once.

Not once.

If you think its so good, then you must have some evidence to back it up?

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:57 pm

summitclaret wrote:I think you know very well what a free trade deal is.

I know what a Free Trade Deal is but what im asking on what negotiated terms / deal do we leave the EU to attain this position?

Edit: Seen you response to LC. Have you a link or can you explain as I may be being stupid but I really am not sure what you are referring to

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:58 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:They should award them MBEs, heroes of the people.

Heroes to the minority of the people

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh my god, Guy Verhofstadt has just won social media for all time

"At least one big relief in the Brexit saga: the rule of law in the UK is alive & kicking. Parliaments should never be silenced in a real democracy.

I never want to hear Boris Johnson or any other Brexiteer say again that the European Union is undemocratic."

Ouch!

Parliaments should never be silenced.

But it's fine to silence the voice of 17.400,000 People!

Democracy- nationalistic , EU empire promoters style!!

Talking of voices

Lancasterclaret wrote: Because less people are travelling because of Brexit uncertainty.

Yours has become uncharacteristically quiet when providing back up for this claim.

Any joy!?...

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:00 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Parliaments should never be silenced.

But it's fine to silence the voice of 17.400,000 People!

Democracy- nationalistic , EU empire promoters style!!

Get Liz out sharpish cos you're not even mildly amusing today

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:01 pm

We change the WA agreement to prevent an indefinite period in a trapstop and the PD makes clear that the aim is a FTA. I know it's not a guarantee but it's the best we can get.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:01 pm

Hipper wrote:Of course he did.

Whilst I'm pretty sure the people that brought this case did so for Brexit reasons, that is not what the court decision was about.

It was obvious what Johnson was doing and he's been quite rightly told it was wrong. Whilst I want us out of the EU this is not the way to do it. In some ways I was hoping he would get away with it because it seemed to offer us the only chance of moving on.

Currently the government can't do anything and Parliament don't want to.

Interesting times and as everyone is asking, where do we go from here?

A straight answer.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:03 pm

Walton wrote:7% fewer overseas visits by Brits in June 2019 compared to June 2018, according to the latest figures produced by the ONS

One months figures.

Any chance of pre and post referendum annual figures?

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:05 pm

summitclaret wrote:I could not support any of those options like I suspect most leavers. 2 are remain in all but name and no deal is ott. You keep leaving ft deal off your list. Why?

In any case having this many questions would ensure a remain victory, as you'd split the leave vote several ways. The question to be asked at another referendum is a real problem. I speak as a remain supporter but I think it would be difficult to come up with a question that was fair.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Get Liz out sharpish cos you're not even mildly amusing today

Have a word with Edward The Confessor to indulge you , seeing as you've apparently run out of argument !

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:06 pm

willsclarets wrote:In any case having this many questions would ensure a remain victory, as you'd split the leave vote several ways. The question to be asked at another referendum is a real problem. I speak as a remain supporter but I think it would be difficult to come up with a question that was fair.

Think remain or leave, then a further question on what deal you would like. Seems the only fair way.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:12 pm

willsclarets wrote:In any case having this many questions would ensure a remain victory, as you'd split the leave vote several ways. The question to be asked at another referendum is a real problem. I speak as a remain supporter but I think it would be difficult to come up with a question that was fair.

There is only 1 fair first question.

Leave or remain. Anything else would be a fix.

A sub question would be needed if the intention us to get a steer on how to leave along the lines of

If the uk leaves the EU should this be with:-

x
y
Z

Voters should put the options they could support in priority order.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:14 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Heroes to the minority of the people

Ha! As if anyone would be stupid enough to vote Leave again.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:14 pm

Three choices but two should add up.

Remain
Leave with a deal
No deal

The bottom two would be leave and added together but at least in gives a definitive view.

*Lancaster beat me to it.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:15 pm

willsclarets wrote:In any case having this many questions would ensure a remain victory, as you'd split the leave vote several ways. The question to be asked at another referendum is a real problem. I speak as a remain supporter but I think it would be difficult to come up with a question that was fair.

They made such a pigs ear of the first one, if we really need to have a 2nd they should making voting compulsory.
I'm not sure why remain should be invited back to have another go in round two, because if leave won again we'd either have multiple questions on a referendum or have a 3rd to confirm with or without deal.

Either way it needs to be worded correctly so we don't have to listen to the tired old rubbish being trotted out that people didn't know what they were voting for etc etc etc

It probably needs all the information laid out in layman's terms for people to understand too, so they know exactly what we give, what we get back, what sort of deals we've got and what we are going to lose and I don't think that's something that's easy to put into a booklet or online site for people to digest and make sense of.

Oh and it should be made perfectly clear that whichever side wins, we are NOT having another vote to make sure in a couple of years, because that has been another boring line trotted out regularly.

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:16 pm

They would need to agree in Parliament as to what to put on the ballot paper. I wonder if they could manage that?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:17 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:They made such a pigs ear of the first one, if we really need to have a 2nd they should making voting compulsory.
I'm not sure why remain should be invited back to have another go in round two, because if leave won again we'd either have multiple questions on a referendum or have a 3rd to confirm with or without deal.

Either way it needs to be worded correctly so we don't have to listen to the tired old rubbish being trotted out that people didn't know what they were voting for etc etc etc
It probably needs all the information laid out in layman's terms for people to understand too, so they know exactly what we give, what we get back, what sort of deals we've got and what we are going to lose and I don't think that's something that's easy to put into a booklet or online site for people to digest and make sense of.

Because you can't have a referendum in 2019 on a 2016 electoral roll and call it fair.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:18 pm

summitclaret wrote:We change the WA agreement to prevent an indefinite period in a trapstop and the PD makes clear that the aim is a FTA. I know it's not a guarantee but it's the best we can get.

I know May was in talks with the EU about this tweak to her originally deal but was this offer officially put on the table and if so what happened at the end of the period if we had not resolved the backstop issue with the EU?

Just to say in the original post you questioned I did mention a 4th option around some kind of tweak to May's deal and if there is a deal on the table from the EU then I would more than happily put it on the ballot.

My issue is not with giving as much choice as possible but the fact we need things on the ballot paper that have actually been agreed as a viable option with the EU and not just something we want which goes against what the EU will ever flex to.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:19 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because you can't have a referendum in 2019 on a 2016 electoral roll and call it fair.

We are having one about how we leave.

Sticking remain back on every time we have a referendum is daft.

If leave won again, then we had one about how we leave would you want remain sticking back on it again?

I've already said on my previous answer what I think should happen.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:20 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Three choices but two should add up.

Remain
Leave with a deal
No deal

The bottom two would be leave and added together but at least in gives a definitive view.

*Lancaster beat me to it.

The 2016 referendum result was "Leave". That result has not been implemented (first time in UK political history) If there was to be a 2nd referendum. It means that as a Leave voter, I would have to have won TWO referenda to finally have my viewpoint implemented. Whereas a Remain voter would only have to have won ONE referendum to have their viewpoint implemented.

How is that fair?

That effectively reduces a Leave vote to being worth half that of a Remain vote.

How is that democratic?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:20 pm

willsclarets wrote:In any case having this many questions would ensure a remain victory, as you'd split the leave vote several ways. The question to be asked at another referendum is a real problem. I speak as a remain supporter but I think it would be difficult to come up with a question that was fair.

Everyone gets three votes indicated by the numbers, 1, 2 and 3. against any of the four options. All the number one votes are counted, and if no majority over fifty percent is achieved, all number two votes are counted, and so on until a majority over fifty percent is arrived at.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:20 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Ha! As if anyone would be stupid enough to vote Leave again.

Would be more like a vote for democracy itself & independance

At least we thought we ctually had the right to leave the EU now we know we do not!

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:23 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Think remain or leave, then a further question on what deal you would like. Seems the only fair way.

I disagree with you on this point. Ranked voting seems the fairest to me so if you get over 50% you win but if noone gets 50% then the top 2 remain and votes from those who voted for a different option gets awarded to one of the remaining two base on their ranked preference.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:23 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Everyone gets three votes indicated by the numbers, 1, 2 and 3. against any of the four options. All the number one votes are counted, and if no majority over fifty percent is achieved, all number two votes are counted, and so on until a majority over fifty percent is arrived at.

Talk about making it overcomplicated.

People will be vote weary by the end of it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:We are having one about how we leave.

Sticking remain back on every time we have a referendum is daft.

If leave won again, then we had one about how we leave would you want remain sticking back on it again?

I've already said on my previous answer what I think should happen.

Again, you claim to be democratic but want to use the 2016 electoral role and decision to decide one in 2019.

Thats not democratic at all.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:24 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Talk about making it overcomplicated.

People will be vote weary by the end of it.

Tough

The last three years have proved that it is complicated.

You can't simplify this into politically friendly slogans.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:25 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:One months figures.

Any chance of pre and post referendum annual figures?

Do you really want me to spend part of my lunch break absolutely owning you?

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:25 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Everyone gets three votes indicated by the numbers, 1, 2 and 3. against any of the four options. All the number one votes are counted, and if no majority over fifty percent is achieved, all number two votes are counted, and so on until a majority over fifty percent is arrived at.

Just Game playing, but real life.

Honour the first Referendum and then when we have left begin your campaign for a further Referendum.

Througout history we as a country and democracy have shown outrage against countries that just keep voting until they wear down their opponents to obtain the result they want.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:26 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The 2016 referendum result was "Leave". That result has not been implemented (first time in UK political history) If there was to be a 2nd referendum. It means that as a Leave voter, I would have to have won TWO referenda to finally have my viewpoint implemented. Whereas a Remain voter would only have to have won ONE referendum to have their viewpoint implemented.

How is that fair?

That effectively reduces a Leave vote to being worth half that of a Remain vote.

How is that democratic?

It's not democratic but I'm very confident Leave would win again

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:28 pm

Honour democracy or face the alternative

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:29 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:One months figures.

Any chance of pre and post referendum annual figures?

Pre referendum is immaterial. We were due to leave on 29th March 2019 so that’s the date to use. Rules on travelling to Europe wouldn’t have changed before then.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:31 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:It's not democratic but I'm very confident Leave would win again

IMO we wouldn't as too many would not vote

Plus it would be manipulated.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:31 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Again, you claim to be democratic but want to use the 2016 electoral role and decision to decide one in 2019.

Thats not democratic at all.

You claim to be democratic.

Yet, you think not actually implementing the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed, before having another referendum that could over turn it , is democratic!!

True europhile style of democracy!

Which is.

"You keep voting till you give us the answer we want"

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:35 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You claim to be democratic.

Yet, you think not actually implementing the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed, before having another referendum that could over turn it , is democratic!!

True europhile style of democracy!

Which is.

"You keep voting till you give us the answer we want"

You really are going to have to work on the whole idea of a messageboard.

I'm deal first, if no-deal, then remain

So i'm going to answer a hypothetical question on how to phrase a 2nd ref as fair as I can, because I'm fair.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:36 pm

martin_p wrote:Pre referendum is immaterial. We were due to leave on 29th March 2019 so that’s the date to use. Rules on travelling to Europe wouldn’t have changed before then.

The failed marriage guidance counselor is back!!!

Pre referendum figures compared to post referendum figures are only "immaterial" if you want to potentially avoid being proven wrong!

Lancasterclaret wrote: Because less people are travelling because of Brexit uncertainty.

If you can back up Lancasterclarets claim, hes gone very quiet, with some figures, fire away!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:39 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The failed marriage guidance counselor is back!!!

Pre referendum figures compared to post referendum figures are only "immaterial" if you want to potentially avoid being proven wrong!

If you can back up Lancasterclarets claim, hes gone very quiet, with some figures, fire away!

Somebody already has but you’ve moved the goalposts because you don’t like the answer. The uncertainty relates to the period after 29th March 2019. There was no uncertainty about travelling before then because we were never going to leave before then. Surely even you can work that out.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:39 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The failed marriage guidance counselor is back!!!

Pre referendum figures compared to post referendum figures are only "immaterial" if you want to potentially avoid being proven wrong!

If you can back up Lancasterclarets claim, hes gone very quiet, with some figures, fire away!

Amazing

Still this is your modus operandi

ignore all the inconvenient facts that show your position is a load of ********, and concentrate on one point.

The fact its already been answered just doesn't matter to you when you are in full flow does it?

Never change Ringo old boy, never change

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You really are going to have to work on the whole idea of a messageboard.

I'm deal first, if no-deal, then remain

So i'm going to answer a hypothetical question on how to phrase a 2nd ref as fair as I can, because I'm fair.

If you're spending time on thinking about how to phrase a question on a ballot paper that would potentially cancel out an earlier ones result.

Then , you really are going to have to work on the whole idea of democracy..........

I had no idea the North Korean Clarets had a branch in Lancaster!

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:42 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Three choices but two should add up.

Remain
Leave with a deal
No deal

The bottom two would be leave and added together but at least in gives a definitive view.

*Lancaster beat me to it.

I wouldn't say that's a good idea. People may want to leave with a deal but would prefer to remain rather than leave with no deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:42 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:If you're spending time on thinking about how to phrase a question on a ballot paper that would potentially cancel out an earlier ones result.

Then , you really are going to have to work on the whole idea of democracy..........

I had no idea the North Korean Clarets had a branch in Lancaster!

I'm 100% sure now you have no idea what hypothetical means.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Amazing

Still this is your modus operandi

ignore all the inconvenient facts that show your position is a load of ********, and concentrate on one point.

The fact its already been answered just doesn't matter to you when you are in full flow does it?

Never change Ringo old boy, never change

It's been answered as it!

You're doing what you do best!

One months figures and that's it!

You have to try harder than that. Much harder!

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:43 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Talk about making it overcomplicated.

People will be vote weary by the end of it.

It's not that complicated. Mayoral elections are already done on this basis in the UK.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm 100% sure now you have no idea what hypothetical means.

Where as, I'm 100% sure now you have no idea what
democracy means.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:46 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Where as, I'm 100% sure now you have no idea what
democracy means.

Now you are just being even sillier.

I want to leave with a deal.

You acting like a little kid who can't have his own way all the time doesn't change that.

Full credit to you never having changed your username, despite everything btw.

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:50 pm

Of the last 19 referendums held in Europe (before 2016) only 2 were upheld without further public votes, or were not upheld at all.

Referendums aren’t, and never have been binding, so please don’t think that it is written in stone that we still MUST leave. That’s not how a democracy works.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:52 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote: I want to leave with a deal.

Interesting comment Lancaster, I'm of the same mind and that having voted remain in 2016.

May I ask a question........ If the options are either Remain or Leave, hope you don't mind me asking but where would your cross go?