Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:09 am

summitclaret wrote:Have you read the BBC link? Farage says he will agree a pact based on a ftd OR no deal. That's a game changer,
If that’s true it shows he’s not really paying attention. We can’t negotiate a trade deal until we’ve left.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:13 am

aggi wrote:All this talk of pacts comes from Farage. He's realised that although the Brexit Party may get a fair few votes in a GE they're likely to get a handful of seats at best so he's desperately trying to turn that around.

Note that the Tory Party are very quiet on this. There's no way they're going to abandon 100+ seats to the Brexit party, it makes them look incredibly weak.
They won't abandon any. It's seats like Burnley that have never been theirs that the tories will not stand to allow the BP to have a clear run.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:14 am

summitclaret wrote:They won't abandon any. It's seats like Burnley that have never been theirs that the tories will not stand to allow the BP to have a clear run.
farage will want to run in seats he can absolutely guarantee to win.

One like Peterborough.........oh wait

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:15 am

martin_p wrote:If that’s true it shows he’s not really paying attention. We can’t negotiate a trade deal until we’ve left.
He talking about after an election obviously an election obviously.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:16 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:farage will want to run in seats he can absolutely guarantee to win.

One like Peterborough.........oh wait
You still missing the point. They would not stand against each other. They did in Peterborough.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:19 am

elwaclaret wrote:Johnston HAS to ignore the Court... it is the only way Parliament keeps sovereignty. It is then Parliaments job to arrest Johnstone. It is the only way to keep the three pillars of British democracy in tact. I image the Queen for just one is livid at the Supreme Court.

If you think this isn’t now bigger than Brexit, you should really take a look at our history. This is Two cornerstone out of three under the other, an unelected group of Justices can now dictate... that is not democracy by default.
Folk might take you a bit more seriously as a political and historical commentator if you learned the Prime Minister’s name.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:22 am

summitclaret wrote:He talking about after an election obviously an election obviously.
What? The position of how we leave the EU will be the same after an election, either with some sort of withdrawal agreement that addresses the Irish border (amongst other things) and sets a framework for future trade negotiations with a likely transition period, or a cliff edge where we leave the EU with none of these sorted out and go straight into WTO trading terms. In the situation where we leave with no WA trade negotiations will then only start when the things we failed to sort out before we left are finally sorted out.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:23 am

summitclaret wrote:You still missing the point. They would not stand against each other. They did in Peterborough.
But that is a Tory winnable seat (as is Burnley if you think about it)

Farage will want seats that are currently held by ERG members in East Anglia as a minimum.

And again, not ever Tory voter is a Tory member or even a "No Deal" Brexiteer.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:25 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Farage doesn't, well, to be fair, he's completely opposed to the WA (which is essential for transition)

Not sure how you have an alliance under those circumstances.
Parties do funny things when potential power is laid in front of them. Ask Nick Clegg. Jezza will no doubt promise plenty more Unicorns yet to get a straight majority, let alone what he’ll do to get a coalition.

The only certainty I can see from the next GE is a hung parliament. After that, I can’t see how anyone can call which way it’s going to go.

After that we’re back to what mandate for Brexit was given? No deal or deal with Brexit / Cons or referendum / revoke with Lab/Lib/SNP.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am

Greenmile wrote:Folk might take you a bit more seriously as a political and historical commentator if you learned the Prime Minister’s name.
But I’m supposed to be his biggest fan. I don’t give a **** about Names, or parties this is constitutional. Far bigger and far more reaching.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am

Darthlaw wrote:Parties do funny things when potential power is laid in front of them. Ask Nick Clegg. Jezza will no doubt promise plenty more Unicorns yet to get a straight majority, let alone what he’ll do to get a coalition.

The only certainty I can see from the next GE is a hung parliament. After that, I can’t see how anyone can call which way it’s going to go.

After that we’re back to what mandate for Brexit was given? No deal or deal with Brexit / Cons or referendum / revoke with Lab/Lib/SNP.
Okay, lets just go back a bit here.

What do you think happens if we crash out on a No Deal under a Tory/Brexit Party pact and then go to the EU "Give us an FTA"?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:35 am

martin_p wrote:What? The position of how we leave the EU will be the same after an election, either with some sort of withdrawal agreement that addresses the Irish border (amongst other things) and sets a framework for future trade negotiations with a likely transition period, or a cliff edge where we leave the EU with none of these sorted out and go straight into WTO trading terms. In the situation where we leave with no WA trade negotiations will then only start when the things we failed to sort out before we left are finally sorted out.
What? A free trade deal is obviously to.be negotiated during a transition period under WA. That would be explicit in a revised PD.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:35 am

summitclaret wrote:What? A free trade deal is obviously to.be negotiated during a transition period under WA. That would be explicit in a revised PD.
But Farage is totally opposed to the WA!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:39 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But that is a Tory winnable seat (as is Burnley if you think about it)

Farage will want seats that are currently held by ERG members in East Anglia as a minimum.

And again, not ever Tory voter is a Tory member or even a "No Deal" Brexiteer.
He might want them but will forego them if he gets a clear run at labour seats in leave areas. That's the point of a pact - to increase the total seats pro brexit not to fight leave seats jointly.

I see you remain lot are spooked by this development as some are losing your nirmal logic

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:41 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:The country voted for a Tory government. They got one with May when she left they still got one with Boris. The GE never asked the question which politician do you want to run the country, just the party. As I've said, the house has it in their own hands to change that if they arent happy, they can have a vote of confidence, they can call for a GE, but they are running scared of both.
As for Corbyn taking up the position, it would lead to civil disorder of the highest order, not just because he and Labour weren't voted to run the country, but as I said, the bloke is hated by the majority of the country.
I am concerned about democracy, above everything else, but I don't think Boris broke any laws. It should have been dismissed summarily, on the grounds it was a decision for Parliament not a law court. He lost because the majority of the judges were on the side of remain, no other reason. Mates of Tony Blair, people who've worked within the EU system, and probably due a nice fat Brussels pension when they retire. The biggest argument against the ruling, is how many times the House has been prorogued in the past. IF what Boris did was illegal, then it stands to reason that when John Major prorogued Parliament it was illegal. When every other PM prorogued Parliament it was illegal. Moving the goalposts to suit yourself, is just another undemocratic move the remainers in this country have picked up from the EU.
The remainers in Parliament have stopped representing their constituents, they are now representing the EU. They are using the same twisted maneuverings that the EU use, in order to get it's own way, and they couldn't give a **** about what the people want or think.
As I've explained many times, this is why I voted Leave in the first place, and why despite all the scaremongering and misinformation I'd still vote to Leave in a heart beat. It's not that the people you are up against dont believe in democracy, they have no time for it at all. It just gets in the way, and slows down their progress to the ultimate goal. A European Empire, their words not mine. Anyone who can stand by and watch this happen, with no voice or opinion on it, is a fool.
The opposition has said that as soon as Johnson gets an extension to A50, they'll vote for a general election. I imagine more than one party will have election advertisements showing him saying he'd rather be dead in a ditch.

As far as "civil disorder of the highest order" if (or when) Corbyn becomes prime minister; you have no proof of that. It's just a project fear. You would just have to believe a bit more, and be a good democrat and get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, or otherwise you'd be a traitor, and people might call for you to be hanged. I have lots of positive reasons for wanting to see a Corbyn government, but sadly schadenfreude is also a growing one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:41 am

summitclaret wrote:He might want them but will forego them if he gets a clear run at labour seats in leave areas. That's the point of a pact - to increase the total seats pro brexit not to fight leave seats jointly.

I see you remain lot are spooked by this development as some are losing your nirmal logic
He won't win enough seats with that though.

Thats four or five seats max.

He knows he can win a lot more than that in the leave and Tory areas.

Some Labour voters who want Brexit also want to see how voting for Farage helps their area, especially as he's more right wing than the Tories are.

I get that brexit is more important to you than anything else, but its a mistake to assume everyone who votes Labour and Brexit is the same.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:42 am

summitclaret wrote:What? A free trade deal is obviously to.be negotiated during a transition period under WA. That would be explicit in a revised PD.
The current PD’s aim is free trade. Have you read it?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:42 am

elwaclaret wrote:... I don’t give a **** about Names, or parties....

..or facts, or reality.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:42 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But Farage is totally opposed to the WA!
May's yes. However i take his comments today about a ftd to mean he would accept WA with a clear intention of a ftd and obviously not trapstop.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:43 am

summitclaret wrote:He might want them but will forego them if he gets a clear run at labour seats in leave areas. That's the point of a pact - to increase the total seats pro brexit not to fight leave seats jointly.

I see you remain lot are spooked by this development as some are losing your nirmal logic
What development? It’s the second time he’s asked, the first time he was flat out refused. There’s only any development in this area if the Tories indicate they want a pact.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:45 am

summitclaret wrote:May's yes. However i take his comments today about a ftd to mean he would accept WA with a clear intention of a ftd and obviously not trapstop.
He's against the WA.

He wants a "No Deal" because he's built his entire career on telling people that "they need us more than we need them"

Just as Johnston loses massively if we are still in the EU after Oct 31st, then Farage loses massively if he accepts the WA.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:45 am

Greenmile wrote:..or facts, or reality.
We’ll see.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:47 am

martin_p wrote:The current PD’s aim is free trade. Have you read it?
Rubbish the current PD is totally vague on future trade arrangements.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:52 am

summitclaret wrote:Rubbish the current PD is totally vague on future trade arrangements.
It talks specifically about a free trade area and maintaining zero tariffs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:58 am

martin_p wrote:It talks specifically about a free trade area and maintaining zero tariffs.
There is no clear way forward. That's what may and the EU wanted to enable them to keep us as close as possible to remaining.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:14 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But that is a Tory winnable seat (as is Burnley if you think about it)

Farage will want seats that are currently held by ERG members in East Anglia as a minimum.

And again, not ever Tory voter is a Tory member or even a "No Deal" Brexiteer.
Labour Lisa Forbes 10,484 30.91 −17.16
Brexit Party Mike Greene 9,801 28.89 (new)
Conservative Paul Bristow 7,243 21.35 −25.45
Liberal Democrat Beki Sellick 4,159 12.26 +8.92

What are you not getting they wouldn't both contest any seat so this would be a BP candidate and 17,000 is bigger than 10,000
I don't think they'll make a pact but if they did..... it's not that complicated
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:17 am

summitclaret wrote:There is no clear way forward. That's what may and the EU wanted to enable them to keep us as close as possible to remaining.
Options are:

1. No-deal 'clean' Brexit with a hard customs/single market border across Ireland
2. May's WA with the backstop 'insurance policy' across Ireland
3. May's WA but with backstop down the Irish Sea
4. No Brexit (after a second referendum)

MP's should be interviewed (under oath?) to clarify which option they will vote for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:19 am

Greenmile wrote:..or facts, or reality.
He makes ridiculous, false statements and then says he's not bothered about getting into the details.

Absolute tripe and just as bad as Ringo/Elizabeth in terms of having a discussion.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:22 am

BleedingClaret wrote:Labour Lisa Forbes 10,484 30.91 −17.16
Brexit Party Mike Greene 9,801 28.89 (new)
Conservative Paul Bristow 7,243 21.35 −25.45
Liberal Democrat Beki Sellick 4,159 12.26 +8.92

What are you not getting they wouldn't both contest any seat so this would be a BP candidate and 17,000 is bigger than 10,000
I don't think they'll make a pact but if they did..... it's not that complicated
It is complicated bleeding.

Surely by now we should have learnt the lessons of pretending stuff isn't complicated!

And I'll say again, Burnley can be won by the Conservative Party so why would it give the Brexit Party a free run?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:23 am

summitclaret wrote:There is no clear way forward. That's what may and the EU wanted to enable them to keep us as close as possible to remaining.
The stated aim is free trade, that can only be confirmed once we start negotiating a trade deal. Maybe you should try reading it.

Thing is the Brexit you want is there for the taking but it’s only a deep distrust of foreigners (the ‘trapstop’) that is stopping you getting it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:32 am

If you are interested in what is actually happening with a Deal, then there are few better than PM Foster of the Telegraph

Not looking good

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 9064255488" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:38 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It is complicated bleeding.

Surely by now we should have learnt the lessons of pretending stuff isn't complicated!

And I'll say again, Burnley can be won by the Conservative Party so why would it give the Brexit Party a free run?
Cons can't win Burnley if BP stand too

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:40 am

BleedingClaret wrote:Cons can't win Burnley if BP stand too
I'm not so sure.

Tories are now as Brexity as BP.

And the BP don't have any other policies.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:It is complicated bleeding.

Surely by now we should have learnt the lessons of pretending stuff isn't complicated!

And I'll say again, Burnley can be won by the Conservative Party so why would it give the Brexit Party a free run?
Jan. 1910 Gerald Arbuthnot Conservative
Dec. 1910 Philip Morrell Liberal
1918 Dan Irving Labour
1924 by-election Arthur Henderson Labour
1931 Gordon Campbell, VC National Liberal
1935 Wilfrid Burke Labour
1959 Dan Jones Labour
1983 Peter Pike Labour
2005 Kitty Ussher Labour
2010 Gordon Birtwistle Liberal Democrats
2015 Julie Cooper Labour

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:03 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Jan. 1910 Gerald Arbuthnot Conservative
Dec. 1910 Philip Morrell Liberal
1918 Dan Irving Labour
1924 by-election Arthur Henderson Labour
1931 Gordon Campbell, VC National Liberal
1935 Wilfrid Burke Labour
1959 Dan Jones Labour
1983 Peter Pike Labour
2005 Kitty Ussher Labour
2010 Gordon Birtwistle Liberal Democrats
2015 Julie Cooper Labour
Still amazing that Burnley had a Lib Dem MP in 2010

But it also shows how much can change in a short period of time.

There is a lot for the Conservatives to lose with an electoral alliances with Farage Ltd, and Farage gains a huge amount.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:30 pm

martin_p wrote:The stated aim is free trade, that can only be confirmed once we start negotiating a trade deal. Maybe you should try reading it.

Thing is the Brexit you want is there for the taking but it’s only a deep distrust of foreigners (the ‘trapstop’) that is stopping you getting it.
It's not a distrust of foreigners it's a distrust of the EU and in particular the self serving EC.

There is no brexit I want there with a trapstop.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 pm

Ace prank call to Farage (who to be fair, took it well)

https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/statu ... 3615217667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ace prank call to Farage (who to be fair, took it well)

https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/statu ... 3615217667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cant get onto Twitter on my work laptop but if its the guy who got kicked by a horse it was very good. If its something else I will have to look at it later
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:38 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:He makes ridiculous, false statements and then says he's not bothered about getting into the details.

Absolute tripe and just as bad as Ringo/Elizabeth in terms of having a discussion.
To be fair to Ringo it is all a bit of a game to him. The scary thing about poster like Elwa and Colburn is they really seriously believe the guff they are posting
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:39 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Cant get onto Twitter on my work laptop but if its the guy who got kicked by a horse it was very good. If its something else I will have to look at it later
it was the horse kicking one
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Geoffrey Cox has just said in Parliament that they will implement the "Benn Act".

So its a deal before Oct 31st, or an extension.

Definite "No Deal"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:It is complicated bleeding.

Surely by now we should have learnt the lessons of pretending stuff isn't complicated!

And I'll say again, Burnley can be won by the Conservative Party so why would it give the Brexit Party a free run?
Send for the men in white coats.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:54 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Send for the men in white coats.
Okay, so you'll vote for the Brexit Party, who are more right wing than the Conservatives, ahead of the Conservatives?

By doing so, you could also be guaranteeing a Labour government if the Brexit Party and the Conservatives can't agree a deal?

Hope your white coat fits you as well!

BleedingClaret
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Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Okay, so you'll vote for the Brexit Party, who are more right wing than the Conservatives, ahead of the Conservatives?

By doing so, you could also be guaranteeing a Labour government if the Brexit Party and the Conservatives can't agree a deal?

Hope your white coat fits you as well!
If they can't agree a deal they'll both stand so he could vote for either surely

summitclaret
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Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:09 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:If they can't agree a deal they'll both stand so he could vote for either surely
And if they do the vast majority of leave voters in places like Burnley will choose the safe optipn of voting BP. Whereas in places where the tories within striking distance of labour.

RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:And now it appeared that you’re drunk. Again.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I had a quick glance at where you entered the discussion yesterday .

There was no interaction with me. No attempt to offer a persuasive alternative view. No challenge. No counter argument. Nothing.

Just straight in claiming I'm "mentally Ill"!

It really was route one stuff! Just a pure baseless attempt of character assassination .

Now, that is usually the the fall back position when democracy denying Remoaners have lost the arguement.

But not you. Now Big Sam is accused of " Hoofball". No playing out from the back, tippy tappy stuff. No, just launch it to the big fella up front. Blunt, unthinking, unattractive route one "hoofball"

Congratulations!!!


You're the Sam Allardyce of debating!!!

And the above post is classic example of "Hoof debate"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

AndyClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Geoffrey Cox has just said in Parliament that they will implement the "Benn Act".

So its a deal before Oct 31st, or an extension.

Definite "No Deal"
Not quite, see peston's tweet.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

Quickenthetempo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:45 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Okay, so you'll vote for the Brexit Party, who are more right wing than the Conservatives, ahead of the Conservatives?

By doing so, you could also be guaranteeing a Labour government if the Brexit Party and the Conservatives can't agree a deal?

Hope your white coat fits you as well!
I think you underestimate the anger in these working class towns that the elite have failed to implement leaving the EU.

I and many others will vote for the Brexit party unless it's already been delivered. If that happens then I won't vote again for the foreseeable as them MPs in Parliament are arseholes.

But under no circumstances will the Tories win Burnley.

The Asian vote will see to that. Nevermind the old entrenched Labour voter.

RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:49 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:You talk utter, utter garbage.

Welcome to my ignore list.
Arent you assuming that your're not already on his ignore list, Mr Kettle-Pot-Black!?


:D

TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:53 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

I had a quick glance at where you entered the discussion yesterday .

There was no interaction with me. No attempt to offer a persuasive alternative view. No challenge. No counter argument. Nothing.

Just straight in claiming I'm "mentally Ill"!

It really was route one stuff! Just a pure baseless attempt of character assassination .

Now, that is usually the the fall back position when democracy denying Remoaners have lost the arguement.

But not you. Now Big Sam is accused of " Hoofball". No playing out from the back, tippy tappy stuff. No, just launch it to the big fella up front. Blunt, unthinking, unattractive route one "hoofball"

Congratulations!!!


You're the Sam Allardyce of debating!!!

And the above post is classic example of "Hoof debate"


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ringo's way of dodging actual discussion this week is football metaphors. I'll be interested to see where he's gone with this by Friday.

On another note, how do you expect an "alternative view" or "counter argument" when you have presented nothing yourself?

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