Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[summitclaret]

Well no. It specifies we should ask for three months.

And if he was trying to get us out with a deal surely he’d have submitted some proposals to the EU by now.

And then goes onto to say he gas to accept any different period the EU demand unless the HOC say otherwise within 2 days as you well know. If that's not surrender I don't know what is.

[Elizabeth]

The lord and martin have been put to bed. Just you Aggi, I said Aggi.

Oh go on then, Aggi Aggi Aggi.........


I hope I haven't posted this before ( unlike some).

Can you tell us all what is wrong with people originally voting 'remain' wanting democracy and accepting the leave vote should be honoured.

I humbly ask you to leave your personal opinion of me out of your reply.

[martin_p]

And then goes onto to say he gas to accept any different period the EU demand unless the HOC say otherwise within 2 days as you well know. If that's not surrender I don't know what is.

Well I’d start by looking up the definition of the word surrender. Pretty sure it won’t include anything about allowing more time to negotiate a deal to avoid damaging yourself and the party you’re trying to negotiate with.

You’re right about the length of time, but the only way the EU have a guarantee we’ll accept is offering three months, so that’s what they’ll do. The EU don’t get to choose any other date without the explicit say so of the PM or HoC.

[Lord Beamish]

It’s like playing Chess with a pigeon.

[Elizabeth]

Another remainer who logs off when they need time to answer the question. Let's pretend the question was never asked of you, shall we?

[Elizabeth]

My lord, I don't think that would be funny if we all lived to be a million years old and were pumped daily with :you will laugh at this' drugs

[Lord Beamish]

My lord, I don't think that would be funny if we all lived to be a million years old and were pumped daily with :you will laugh at this' drugs

Not funny at all. Just sadly accurate.

[Elizabeth]

I know, the next time I want to be accurate I will bring a pigeon into it.
Thank you my lord, you have finally made me laugh

[AndrewJB]

Here we go again. Remainers undermining any chance of getting a meaningful Brexit. Bring on a GE asap and get rid of the manifesto breakers.

Remainers? His cabinet is full of leave supporters.

I can’t believe all the forelock tuggers are still behind Johnson, but once we get to 31st October with an extension set in place, and him not dead in a ditch support for him will fall off. He’s just a chancer, and he hasn’t delivered.

[If it be your will]

Remainers? His cabinet is full of leave supporters.

I can’t believe all the forelock tuggers are still behind Johnson, but once we get to 31st October with an extension set in place, and him not dead in a ditch support for him will fall off. He’s just a chancer, and he hasn’t delivered.

Assuming support does fall away, where will it go?

He's polling about mid 30s right now, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if any of today's Tory support left for Labour or Lib Dem because anyone even vaguely tempted with either must surely have already gone by now, after the way he's behaved. Yet it's still mid 30s. It can only realistically go to Brexit Party from here I think, and provided that doesn't happen, he absolutely walks it. Hence his rabid pursuit of hard Brexit.

[Right_winger]

Remainers? His cabinet is full of leave supporters.

I can’t believe all the forelock tuggers are still behind Johnson, but once we get to 31st October with an extension set in place, and him not dead in a ditch support for him will fall off. He’s just a chancer, and he hasn’t delivered.

The only thing I can disagree with you in is the support will drop off. I’m not so sure about that especially with the tactics employed. It’s pretty easy to lay the blame at the remainer Parliament for the delay, which is exactly what he’s going to do.

[Lowbankclaret]

I have got one!!!
Someone has probably said this already.

Scenario 4

Vote of no confidence.
Form a gov under Swinson of all no Tories.

Back her in a vote to revoke article 50.
Revoke it , we stay in .

Boris loses.

Wait 18 months hoping things have calmed down and have a GE.

[Lancasterclaret]

The only thing I can disagree with you in is the support will drop off. I’m not so sure about that especially with the tactics employed. It’s pretty easy to lay the blame at the remainer Parliament for the delay, which is exactly what he’s going to do.

To be fair, that only works if you are prepared to abandon any attempt at acknowledging what has happened over the last three years.

The % of the pop that can do that isn't enough to win a GE and is concentrated in leave voting areas.

[Elizabeth]

With an estimated 406 constituencies voting to leave in 2016 and the People v Parliament feeling in the country that Johnson is igniting, I think the outcome of a GE could be different to what some posters think.

[AndrewJB]

Assuming support does fall away, where will it go?

He's polling about mid 30s right now, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if any of today's Tory support left for Labour or Lib Dem because anyone even vaguely tempted with either must surely have already gone by now, after the way he's behaved. Yet it's still mid 30s. It can only realistically go to Brexit Party from here I think, and provided that doesn't happen, he absolutely walks it. Hence his rabid pursuit of hard Brexit.

How many conservative remain voters are backing Johnson to get a deal, but then could shift to a more Remain friendly Stan e if he fails and no deal becomes the default position? And how many die hard Leave voters will switch to the Brexit Party if Johnson fails to take us out as promised before the 31st October? The former position might be illustrated by Tories such as Ken Clarke or Amber Rudd - outing for May’s deal, but drawing the line at no deal. The latter position I’ve seen on social media a lot - backing Johnson to take us out, but if Johnson tries to do it with a reheated May’s deal they’ll turn to calling him a traitor very quickly, and their natural home might be Brexit Party in any case, so if we’re not out by 31st, why vote potential Brexit lite when you can vote for the full monty?

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

Assuming support does fall away, where will it go?

He's polling about mid 30s right now, I'd be utterly gobsmacked if any of today's Tory support left for Labour or Lib Dem because anyone even vaguely tempted with either must surely have already gone by now, after the way he's behaved. Yet it's still mid 30s. It can only realistically go to Brexit Party from here I think, and provided that doesn't happen, he absolutely walks it. Hence his rabid pursuit of hard Brexit.

I always find your posts interesting because you have an uncommon perspective, but I've got to ask: at this point, do you really think Brexit will be worth it? I would probably take May's deal now just to prevent us from descending further into the deep but this has been a right wing project all along, and now it's really showing its true colours. From the left-wing vantage point, what possible good can come from this?

[Lancasterclaret]

See we are at the "do what we tell you, or there will be riots" stage from the government.

Can't see how anyone can support that

This lot now have to win, or they will almost certainly face jail time, so they will do absolutely anything to avoid that.

Dark times, but hey, lets all just concentrate on it all being the fault of "remoaners" eh?

[AndrewJB]

The only thing I can disagree with you in is the support will drop off. I’m not so sure about that especially with the tactics employed. It’s pretty easy to lay the blame at the remainer Parliament for the delay, which is exactly what he’s going to do.

He’ll try to blame Parliament, but it remains a promise he made that he failed to keep. He was either ignorant of the potential for failure, or he knowingly made it anyway. When added to all the other promises he’s failed to keep, the opposition will be able to attack his honesty with impunity.

His advantage is a massive establishment media machine - smoothing over his failures, airbrushing his ugliness (physical and character), and attacking his rivals, however unlike regular times, his rivals will also get more coverage, so Labour’s message, that of the LibDems, and of the Greens , etc will also be heard - and that is how Tory support slipped away in 2017.

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

I should add, I'd accept May's deal with Labour deciding the future trajectory. The Conservatives are not toxic, they are radioactive: the fallout from their internal divisions has diffused across the country at large and now the mutant offspring are beginning to arise. I am being dramatic, but only because I can see exactly which way this is going.

[Lancasterclaret]

I should add, I'd accept May's deal with Labour deciding the future trajectory. The Conservatives are not toxic, they are radioactive: the fallout from their internal divisions has diffused across the country at large and now the mutant offspring are beginning to arise. I am being dramatic, but only because I can see exactly which way this is going.

Said similar last night on here, I was against this from the start because of the internal tensions in the country it would unleash.

Dan Snow had an ace quote on it

"Its quite a good time to be part of the establishment and well off in the UK at the moment, but that same group are playing pontoon with twenty in their hand and screaming "TWIST, TWIST, TWIST""

[Colburn_Claret]

The opposition has said that as soon as Johnson gets an extension to A50, they'll vote for a general election. I imagine more than one party will have election advertisements showing him saying he'd rather be dead in a ditch.

As far as "civil disorder of the highest order" if (or when) Corbyn becomes prime minister; you have no proof of that. It's just a project fear. You would just have to believe a bit more, and be a good democrat and get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, or otherwise you'd be a traitor, and people might call for you to be hanged. I have lots of positive reasons for wanting to see a Corbyn government, but sadly schadenfreude is also a growing one.

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels.
No his only way of becoming PM, is if the muppets in Parliament have a coup and put him there, in order to undermine Boris.

As for extending A50, there has to be a reason. That's what the EU said last time. It's pointless to extend unless it has a purpose, and it doesn't. After an extension nothing changes, the remainers in Parliament will continue to try and ignore/overturn the referendum. The Leavers will continue to try to deliver on the promises made to the people, both before and after the referendum, and at the hustings at the last GE.
Delaying it to see who wins a GE is pointless, because Boris will win it, if he does a deal with Farage he'll walk it, so again pointless.
Businesses have had enough, they just want it doing. It's amazing how well business, as a whole, has coped during the last 3 years of turmoil and just indicates how strong our economy is right now, that it can bear that burden. It's why leaving with no deal is nothing to fear.
The people have had enough of bickering, snarling MPs, pulling this country inside out, embarrassing us before the whole world, trying to score political points, while ignoring the mandate given by the referendum.

If it's my duty to get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, then I look forward to your posts supporting Boris, and Brexit, after the next election.

[martin_p]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels.
No his only way of becoming PM, is if the muppets in Parliament have a coup and put him there, in order to undermine Boris.

As for extending A50, there has to be a reason. That's what the EU said last time. It's pointless to extend unless it has a purpose, and it doesn't. After an extension nothing changes, the remainers in Parliament will continue to try and ignore/overturn the referendum. The Leavers will continue to try to deliver on the promises made to the people, both before and after the referendum, and at the hustings at the last GE.
Delaying it to see who wins a GE is pointless, because Boris will win it, if he does a deal with Farage he'll walk it, so again pointless.
Businesses have had enough, they just want it doing. It's amazing how well business, as a whole, has coped during the last 3 years of turmoil and just indicates how strong our economy is right now, that it can bear that burden. It's why leaving with no deal is nothing to fear.
The people have had enough of bickering, snarling MPs, pulling this country inside out, embarrassing us before the whole world, trying to score political points, while ignoring the mandate given by the referendum.

If it's my duty to get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, then I look forward to your posts supporting Boris, and Brexit, after the next election.

It’s not anyone’s duty to get behind the leader of the country. I’ll use one of Wrongo’s favourites here, if you want that sort of thing get to North Korea.

[Lancasterclaret]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British.

No offence, but I'd vote for Farage before I'd ever believe you were a socialist.

Not a chance with your posts on here.

[Lancasterclaret]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels.
No his only way of becoming PM, is if the muppets in Parliament have a coup and put him there, in order to undermine Boris.

As for extending A50, there has to be a reason. That's what the EU said last time. It's pointless to extend unless it has a purpose, and it doesn't. After an extension nothing changes, the remainers in Parliament will continue to try and ignore/overturn the referendum. The Leavers will continue to try to deliver on the promises made to the people, both before and after the referendum, and at the hustings at the last GE.
Delaying it to see who wins a GE is pointless, because Boris will win it, if he does a deal with Farage he'll walk it, so again pointless.
Businesses have had enough, they just want it doing. It's amazing how well business, as a whole, has coped during the last 3 years of turmoil and just indicates how strong our economy is right now, that it can bear that burden. It's why leaving with no deal is nothing to fear.
The people have had enough of bickering, snarling MPs, pulling this country inside out, embarrassing us before the whole world, trying to score political points, while ignoring the mandate given by the referendum.

If it's my duty to get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, then I look forward to your posts supporting Boris, and Brexit, after the next election.

And the rest of the post is 100% evidence free.

Why don't you tell us all again that you don't know a single person who voted remain?

Its about as believable.

[martin_p]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels.
No his only way of becoming PM, is if the muppets in Parliament have a coup and put him there, in order to undermine Boris.

As for extending A50, there has to be a reason. That's what the EU said last time. It's pointless to extend unless it has a purpose, and it doesn't. After an extension nothing changes, the remainers in Parliament will continue to try and ignore/overturn the referendum. The Leavers will continue to try to deliver on the promises made to the people, both before and after the referendum, and at the hustings at the last GE.
Delaying it to see who wins a GE is pointless, because Boris will win it, if he does a deal with Farage he'll walk it, so again pointless.
Businesses have had enough, they just want it doing. It's amazing how well business, as a whole, has coped during the last 3 years of turmoil and just indicates how strong our economy is right now, that it can bear that burden. It's why leaving with no deal is nothing to fear.
The people have had enough of bickering, snarling MPs, pulling this country inside out, embarrassing us before the whole world, trying to score political points, while ignoring the mandate given by the referendum.

If it's my duty to get behind the democratically elected leader of the country, then I look forward to your posts supporting Boris, and Brexit, after the next election.

And I’ll ask you the same question I’ve been asking other Brexiteers throwing doubt on the EU extending article 50. Is no deal so scary to the EU that ’keeping it on the table’ is the only way of getting a good deal or something they’ll choose to enter into on 31st October when the option is there to avoid it for at least three months? It can’t be both.

[Lancasterclaret]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-27/exc ... rt-peston/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SNP prepared to back Corbyn as interim PM

Interesting.

[martin_p]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-27/exc ... rt-peston/

SNP prepared to back Corbyn as interim PM

Interesting.

It’ll need the Lib Dem’s as well though and they seem reluctant. If it becomes the only way of stopping no deal they need to have a serious think.

[claretonthecoast1882]

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-27/exc ... rt-peston/

SNP prepared to back Corbyn as interim PM

Interesting.

Just when you think the **** show can't get any worse than it currently is

[Elizabeth]

The only relevant evidence in all this is that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU and that should be enough to shut some people up

[Greenmile]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels...

You ain’t no socialist, bruv.

[Clarets4me]

It’ll need the Lib Dem’s as well though and they seem reluctant. If it becomes the only way of stopping no deal they need to have a serious think.

Lib Dems and Labour have a special dislike for each other, no more so that on a local level here in Burnley ....

Interesting to note that there were 5 local by-elections in England yesterday, and there was an average swing from Labour to Conservative of around 6% in these seats based on 2017. The Lib Dems share of the vote was up around 8% on average .... Granted, it's a very small sample but even so ..

[Cryssys]

You're missing a few points. I have no fear of Corbyn ever winning a GE. If I as a socialist, hate him and his extreme left wing agenda, and his hatred of everything British, then I can only imagine what the rest of the country feels.

Every time you call yourself a socialist I can't help but laugh. If there was a God I'm sure he would have dropped his clog on you by now. Please can you provide examples of his extreme left wing agenda and his hatred of everything British?

I'd be grateful if you could stick to the truth rather than regurgitating editorials from the Mail and the Express.

[SalouClaret]

Cummings this week, "This is a walk in the park compared to the referendum. We are enjoying this. We are going to leave and we are going to win," he said.

Cummings this morning when questioned as he left his home in London said: "Who said it would be a walk in the park?"

Told that he had made the remark, he replied: "No."

Now I know where Ringo gets his contradicting from!

" "

"Schooled!!1!1111!!"

Get me on that bloody radio!

[martin_p]

Cummings this week, "This is a walk in the park compared to the referendum. We are enjoying this. We are going to leave and we are going to win," he said.

Cummings this morning when questioned as he left his home in London said: "Who said it would be a walk in the park?"

Told that he had made the remark, he replied: "No."

Now I know where Ringo gets his contradicting from!

" "

"Schooled!!1!1111!!"

Get me on that bloody radio!

It’s getting to the point where when journalists ask him a question face to face he’ll deny he even exists.

[Lancasterclaret]

It’s getting to the point where when journalists ask him a question face to face he’ll deny he even exists.

Think we are at the stage where quite a lot of Conservative MPs wish he didn't exist as well.

[Murger]

I wonder if all those complaining BoJo only got in by a small number of people, will complain when Corbyn gets put in charge by an even smaller number?

[martin_p]

I wonder if all those complaining BoJo only got in by a small number of people, will complain when Corbyn gets put in charge by an even smaller number?

Doubt it. When Corbyn won the last Labour leadership contest over 300,000 members voted for him. That’s twice as much as the whole Tory membership. So what you say won’t be true.

[Lord Beamish]

I wonder if all those complaining BoJo only got in by a small number of people, will complain when Corbyn gets put in charge by an even smaller number?

“BoJo” as you call him didn’t get in with any number of people. He then proceeded to, in a fit of pique, ditch 20-odd of the people he did have.

[Murger]

Doubt it. When Corbyn won the last Labour leadership contest over 300,000 members voted for him. That’s twice as much as the whole Tory membership. So what you say won’t be true.

Well it will. His party wasn't elected, the Tories were.

[Erasmus]

This whole business is just so awful now in terms of what it has done for our country. I favoured Remain because nobody could ever tell me what the benefits of leaving are for me, my family or the people of my community, whilst there seems to be some risk of economic damage from leaving. But the harm to the country caused by these divisions is going to take years to repair. The real hatred between the two sides can do no good for anyone. As Jesus said:

'Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.' (Matthew 12.25)

However bad leaving or remaining might seem the worst outcome is the intensity of the divisions between us. I think now we should just accept May's deal with all its faults as it allows us to leave but at the same time limits the economic damage that leaving might cause. Then we might begin to heal the divide; but the whole process has caused so much harm to the country whilst any potential gain appears so negligible.

[Murger]

“BoJo” as you call him didn’t get in with any number of people. He then proceeded to, in a fit of pique, ditch 20-odd of the people he did have.

100,000+ members voted between him and Hunt. So he was elected by a small number.

[Spijed]

Well it will. His party wasn't elected, the Tories were.

Can you show me the results where the Tories were elected into government?

Thanks in advance.

[Lord Beamish]

100,000+ members voted between him and Hunt. So he was elected by a small number.

You seem to be switching between his election as Tory Leader and his ascension to PM. You really are confused.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well it will. His party wasn't elected, the Tories were.

No overall majority in the 2017 GE

You know you should have just deleted your first post, rather than digging yourself this massive hole.

[Mala591]

It might be useful if MPs were allowed a free vote on whether they would support an EU/UK trade border down the middle of the Irish sea. The EU have indicated that they would find this an acceptable option.

If this idea had majority MP support then the WA could be amended and ratified. We would then have a two year transition period to phase this solution in.

[Colburn_Claret]

It’s not anyone’s duty to get behind the leader of the country. I’ll use one of Wrongo’s favourites here, if you want that sort of thing get to North Korea.

I never believed it was, I was using Andrew's argument against him. Which you would know if you bothered to read it.

[Tall Paul]

I never believed it was, I was using Andrew's argument against him. Which you would know if you bothered to read it.

You didn't realise that that part of Andrew's post was massively tongue-in-cheek and a pop at the Brexiteers who keep telling us that we just need to believe more?

[Colburn_Claret]

No offence, but I'd vote for Farage before I'd ever believe you were a socialist.

Not a chance with your posts on here.

I was a Labour Party member for 40 years and attended conference down at Bournemouth once. I've said many times, I never left the Labour Party, they left me. I know lots of friends and family who feel exactly the same way.
Corbyn isnt a Socialist, he never has been, hes a Commie, and not even a thinly disguised one. The extremes of the far left have been tried, tested and failed before. They'd fail again .
If you really want to help the poor, the sick, the elderly a country has to generate the money to fund it first, you cant eat pie in the sky. Any extreme left wing party, run by Corbyn or anyone else, would grind business to a standstill. And then it's the ones most in need that suffer.
I dont believe in the Tories, I never have, but at least they understand what business needs to prosper, all they need is a heart to understand how to use it. At the moment they are by far the lesser of two evils.

[Lancasterclaret]

I was a Labour Party member for 40 years and attended conference down at Bournemouth once. I've said many times, I never left the Labour Party, they left me. I know lots of friends and family who feel exactly the same way.
Corbyn isnt a Socialist, he never has been, hes a Commie, and not even a thinly disguised one. The extremes of the far left have been tried, tested and failed before. They'd fail again .
If you really want to help the poor, the sick, the elderly a country has to generate the money to fund it first, you cant eat pie in the sky. Any extreme left wing party, run by Corbyn or anyone else, would grind business to a standstill. And then it's the ones most in need that suffer.
I dont believe in the Tories, I never have, but at least they understand what business needs to prosper, all they need is a heart to understand how to use it. At the moment they are by far the lesser of two evils.

So you were Labour pre- Kinnock?

[If it be your will]

How many conservative remain voters are backing Johnson to get a deal, but then could shift to a more Remain friendly Stan e if he fails and no deal becomes the default position? And how many die hard Leave voters will switch to the Brexit Party if Johnson fails to take us out as promised before the 31st October? The former position might be illustrated by Tories such as Ken Clarke or Amber Rudd - outing for May’s deal, but drawing the line at no deal. The latter position I’ve seen on social media a lot - backing Johnson to take us out, but if Johnson tries to do it with a reheated May’s deal they’ll turn to calling him a traitor very quickly, and their natural home might be Brexit Party in any case, so if we’re not out by 31st, why vote potential Brexit lite when you can vote for the full monty?

No dispute at all that Boris's support could drain to Brexit Party. Indeed, anything other than a hard Brexit and it almost certainly will - possibly dramatically so. The question is: would it go anywhere other than Brexit Party?

For that you're looking at your classic free-market Tories: the adherents of open, frictionless trade, together with a belief that state intervention distorts the correct functioning of capitalism, and should therefore be minimised. This is your Ken Clarke club. The Tories that read the Financial Times, if you like. Might they switch to the Lib Dems? (I think we can rule out a switch to Corbyn's Labour, can't we?)

The answer is yes, they certainly can. The Boris agenda offers them nothing but chaos. But I've just looked at the data in the last 3 major opinion polls, and the take home message is this: They have already gone!

Nearly 80% of the current Tory vote are leavers, and leavers everywhere are now overwhelmingly no-dealers. Have a look in the data, it is truly shocking. Broken down into social class, current Tory support is highest in DE, and least in AB. When broken down into income, it's almost linear - the higher your income, the less likely you are to vote Tory! Now have a look at Lib Dem support, and the exact opposite is true. It seems your classic Clarke/Rudd remainer Tory - the educated affluent buiseness family with kids in private school - is already firmly in the Lib Dem camp. Yet Boris still gets support in the mid 30s, easily enough for a majority.

Can you see where I'm coming from? So long as Boris pursues a hard brexit, he wins the next election. The only way this doesn't work is if there's mass tactical voting in the remain camp, but considering the entire political map has been upended, it is close to impossible to know how to vote in a tactical way, even if you wanted to.