Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

Ok, if we leave with no deal, but call it remain. You would be ok with that?

Sounds like compromise is only an interest to remainers.

If that is the case, then you've no chance of reuniting the country after this.

Said it before and I'll say it again. You aim for the hard Brexit and you could end up with no Brexit at all.

[martin_p]

It is but can you see that i voted to leave and want a Canada style ftd is also a compromise as it is not the hardest of Brexit.

It is, unfortunately no one in government wants that.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not true. Immigrants were and are allowed full and free voting rights in all UK elections, including Brexit - there is no restriction on place of birth in deciding whether UK citizens can vote.

What you are confusing it with is that temporary migrant workers were not allowed to vote. This vote was for UK citizens, but foreigners passing through - whether short or long term - they were the ones who couldn't vote.

Very hard to be polite to someone who persists in treating us all like idiots.

You are not thick enough not to know what he meant, so don't assume we are either eh?

[Spijed]

No. Put it on the list with the other things that were supposed to happen

Hang on a minute. That's after we leave, not currently.

[Damo]

It was interesting how at the Brexit Party meeting tonight it was discussed about how the racist, fascist card is thrown at Brexit ME-P’s.
When in fact it is so far away from the truth.

The Brexit parties parliamentary candidates has a higher number of minority people represented without any box ticking quotas, just selecting the best candidates.

I was listening to 5 live in the early hours, and they were talking about a character currently invading every aspect of the dutch media at the moment called the "brexit muppet"
It's all part of the machine, and easy to see why anyone easily influenced is so terrified of leaving. Some of the propaganda they use is subtle, and then you get things like this.

[Damo]

But the May deal had us leaving the EU. It would have had us out six months now.

I'm guessing you didnt see what the deal entailed Martin?

[Damo]

Sounds like compromise is only an interest to remainers.

If that is the case, then you've no chance of reuniting the country after this.

Said it before and I'll say it again. You aim for the hard Brexit and you could end up with no Brexit at all.

Again, this is only true if you consider May's deal a compromise. I can see why the EU were happy with it

[Damo]

Hang on a minute. That's after we leave, not currently.

We have heard all of these things before. Both post brexit and post referendum.
Not one of these predictions have materialised

[martin_p]

I'm guessing you didnt see what the deal entailed Martin?

Yes, read it all, did you? It offered everything the average Brexiteer wanted, leaving the customs union, single market, ending free movement. All it required was that we wait until the Irish border issue was sorted. We’ll have to wait until the Irish border issue is sorted before we get a trade deal anyway, however we leave. But no deal will have us on WTO terms until it is with the consequent impact on some businesses.

[If it be your will]

Cheers. Is there anywhere that has done it successfully in the past thirty years? I'm generally curious, it's not something I'd really thought about before.

It'd be really difficult to think of one in the last 30 years without launching ourselves across cultural and economic landscapes, thus making any comparison meaningless.

If you're looking for an example in an advanced Western economy, there's not actually much to choose from. The EU forbids it, and the US is the land of the free-market - that rules out most of the West immediately. All that's really left is Australia, Canada, and New Zealand (I honestly don't know the situation there). There are examples of the things I speak of in the EFTA countries, despite them being closely tied to the EU, e.g. Iceland's energy sector (up to 2006) and their health sector. There's Swiss Railways, too. And the Bank of North Dakota in the US is an approximation of the proposed NIB. The truth is the neoliberal model has dominated western civilisation for the last 30 years. But it's not as if the alternative economic model is uniquely novel - most European citizens have living memory of it.

I'm at least glad the conversation has moved on from Of Course Corbyn could implement his manifesto as a member of the EU to Has anyone implemented something approximating to Corbyn's manifesto before? The answer to which is a resounding yes: "Most of Europe pre-Maastricht"

(Notice how I borrowed one of your debating tactics there?)

[If it be your will]

Yes, read it all, did you? It offered everything the average Brexiteer wanted, leaving the customs union, single market, ending free movement. All it required was that we wait until the Irish border issue was sorted. We’ll have to wait until the Irish border issue is sorted before we get a trade deal anyway, however we leave. But no deal will have us on WTO terms until it is with the consequent impact on some businesses.

All that was to be negotiated after we'd signed the withdrawal agreement, once we no-longer possessed a unilateral exit clause. Great negotiating position we'd have had entering those talks, then.

[Lowbankclaret]

You should probably take a closer look at the posts in response to lowbank. It's not about how he can be so thick to support farage, it's about how he can be so thick full stop.

For instance yesterday he kept peddling the absolute bullshit that Johnson can prevent an election after the extension is agreed because the fixed term parliament act requires a two thirds majority.

Many people explained that a vote of no confidence only requires a simple majority and will trigger an election but he continued to insist that it could be blocked by Johnson.

He wasn't being called thick for supporting Farage. He was being called thick because his posts were incredibly stupid.

You are correct, a vote of no confidence will result in other parties being able to try to form an alternative gov in 14 days.

If not it forces a GE.

At this time, a position that appears to be getting more probable. As opposition parties start thinking Boris has some master plan up his sleeve.


There are times I don’t read every word of every post and don’t respond correctly. When I read it back the day after its often embarrassing.

[Lancasterclaret]

Again, this is only true if you consider May's deal a compromise. I can see why the EU were happy with it

Two years

Economic damage minimised

Acceptable compromise to all but the most extreme on all sides.

Reality

[summitclaret]

Yes, read it all, did you? It offered everything the average Brexiteer wanted, leaving the customs union, single market, ending free movement. All it required was that we wait until the Irish border issue was sorted. We’ll have to wait until the Irish border issue is sorted before we get a trade deal anyway, however we leave. But no deal will have us on WTO terms until it is with the consequent impact on some businesses.

But the Irish border would only be sorted when and if the EU say it is meaning that we have no control of when and if we actually leave propetly.

[summitclaret]

Very hard to be polite to someone who persists in treating us all like idiots.

You are not thick enough not to know what he meant, so don't assume we are either eh?

Think you need to spell out clearly the accusation is because you appear to be way out of order.

[Damo]

Yes, read it all, did you? It offered everything the average Brexiteer wanted, leaving the customs union, single market, ending free movement. All it required was that we wait until the Irish border issue was sorted. We’ll have to wait until the Irish border issue is sorted before we get a trade deal anyway, however we leave. But no deal will have us on WTO terms until it is with the consequent impact on some businesses.

It required we wait until the EU decided the irish border issue was sorted. Until the time they decide. So it didnt offer anything that brexiteers wanted, but it did offer everything remainers wanted.
Like I said, it was in no way a remain/leave compromise

[martin_p]

All that was to be negotiated after we'd signed the withdrawal agreement, once we no-longer possessed a unilateral exit clause. Great negotiating position we'd have had entering those talks, then.

I put it to you that a position of being desperate for a deal because the economy is taking the hit of a job deal Brexit is a worse negotiating position!

[Elizabeth]

I feel too many are being overly harsh on some of the persistent remoaners on this thread.
They suffered a defeat in 2016 and grief often leads to a long period of denial. It is a protective mechanism and I believe should be more respected.
Don't people realise that they should be listened to with empathy when they say they are trying to support a deal.
We have to hope the right deal is found for them so they can finally come to terms with their loss

[Lancasterclaret]

Think you need to spell out clearly the accusation is because you appear to be way out of order.

Not talking or aimed at you.

Dsr treats us all like idiots and it's well annoying.

[Damo]

I put it to you that a position of being desperate for a deal because the economy is taking the hit of a job deal Brexit is a worse negotiating position!

"I put it to you"

[Lancasterclaret]

Essentially you are claiming that every Brexiteer wants the same Brexit.

No one seriously believes that.

I'm speculating, but I reckon that a compromise is much more likely to be accepted than either remain or no deal.

[martin_p]

It required we wait until the EU decided the irish border issue was sorted. Until the time they decide. So it didnt offer anything that brexiteers wanted, but it did offer everything remainers wanted.
Like I said, it was in no way a remain/leave compromise

No, until we and the EU agree it’s been sorted, not the time they decide. If you’re going to go into a negotiation fundamentally distrusting the other party it’s likely you’ll never end up with a mutually beneficial agreement anyway. It’s hardly a surprise we are where we are taking that approach.

[martin_p]

"I put it to you"

Sorry, I was trying to appeal to the Mensa in you.

[Damo]

Sorry, I was trying to appeal to the Mensa in you.

There was me thinking you had had a drink, and politics had got to your head

[Lowbankclaret]

It’s interesting that the Brexit party is cast as seriously right wing.

Listening to Claire Fox tonight it’s kinda, hows that being spun that way.


Just read her background. Erm fairly left.

The one thing that’s drives everyone is Brexit and getting out of the EU.

But people from the left and Right were there.

[martin_p]

It’s interesting that the Brexit party is cast as seriously right wing.

Listening to Claire Fox tonight it’s kinda, hows that being spun that way.


Just read her background. Erm fairly left.

The one thing that’s drives everyone is Brexit and getting out of the EU.

But people from the left and Right were there.

If they ever publish any policies people will be able to make a judgement. Until then it all has to be based on Farage and he’s seriously right wing.

[martin_p]

We have heard all of these things before. Both post brexit and post referendum.
Not one of these predictions have materialised

That’s not true.

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-accura ... eferendum/

[Damo]

That’s not true.

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-accura ... eferendum/

I meant the scare stories Martin. The overnight recession, mass unemployment, house prices crashing etc. Not a couple of optimistic forecasts by a couple of the more rational think tanks

[martin_p]

I meant the scare stories Martin. The overnight recession, mass unemployment, house prices crashing etc. Not a couple of optimistic forecasts by a couple of the more rational think tanks

Everything that wasn’t positive was branded a scare story. All part of ‘Project Fear’.

[If it be your will]

It’s interesting that the Brexit party is cast as seriously right wing.

Listening to Claire Fox tonight it’s kinda, hows that being spun that way.


Just read her background. Erm fairly left.

The one thing that’s drives everyone is Brexit and getting out of the EU.

But people from the left and Right were there.

This is absolutely true. On paper at least they're neither left nor right. I know I've said it before, but it's the money thing. I have a cynical tendency to follow the money, with the assumption the financial backers must be pulling the strings somehow. But I have no solid evidence for that yet.

[Damo]

Everything that wasn’t positive was branded a scare story. All part of ‘Project Fear’.

Not true. Plenty of people on here have accepted there will be negative impacts because of brexit.
Ask Rileybobs about my imaginary grandchildren

[aggi]

Paul Waine posted a good comment piece from the Times by a retired QC in the thread about the unlawful suspension of parliament. The last line resonated:

The moral is that under our constitution 52 per cent cannot expect to carry off 100 per cent of the spoils. They have to engage with the rest. That is what parliament is for.

[Bin Ont Turf]

The moral is that under our constitution 52 per cent cannot expect to carry off 100 per cent of the spoils. They have to engage with the rest. That is what parliament is for.

Except when it's a General Election, then it's okay and folk don't ask for a second election.

[jontybfc]

Except when it's a General Election, then it's okay and folk don't ask for a second election.

So ridiculous. Totally naive .

[jontybfc]

I feel like I’m missing something. So many people want a no deal brexit, someone tell me why it’s so great? How’s my or anyone’s life going to improve?

[AndyClaret]

If they ever publish any policies people will be able to make a judgement. Until then it all has to be based on Farage and he’s seriously right wing.

A few were announced last night.

Party chairman Richard Tice also unveiled some policies at the London event without going into detail, including:

Scrapping the "absurd" HS2 scheme
Abolishing inheritance tax
Reducing by 50% the UK's foreign aid budget to fund public services
Wifi access on public transport and "not just the London tube"
Investment in broadband
Change the interest on student loans to 0%

[Lancasterclaret]

A few were announced last night.

Two on there are as right wing as you can get.

Other ones are the sort of policies that everyone will probably have variants on.

No offence to ITBYW but the Brexit Party is to the right of the Tory Party economically, socially, fiscally etc etc

It's indefensible for a true socialist to vote for them, especially as Corbyn (for all his faults) is the most socialist lab leader for quite a while

[Spijed]

How great would this be?

Ken Clarke becomes interim leader, everyone calmly sits down.

We then revoke Article 50.

And everyone is happy!

What's not to like?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nico ... -9z3xghdc8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

A few were announced last night.

Not really earth shattering stuff is it? They’ll need more than that to attract anyone more than no deal Brexiteers.

Someone needs to tell them that I can get Wi-fi on my local buses and the majority of trains, neither of which are the London Underground

[martin_p]

How great would this be?

Ken Clarke becomes interim leader, everyone calmly sits down.

We then revoke Article 50.

And everyone is happy!

What's not to like?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nico ... -9z3xghdc8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That sounds promising.

[Lancasterclaret]

Says "could"

It's asking a lot of Corbyn (and especially some of his more vocal supporters)

[taio]

Says "could"

Applies to the overwhelming majority of articles on what might happen in all things relating to Brexit.

[summitclaret]

Imagine if europhile Clark is to one to send in the surrender letter or just revoke. Talk about playing into BJ and Farage'so arms at the GE. Bring it on. That would mean re issuing A50 the day after and up to 2 years to prepare properly for no deal if the EU won't play ball. No excuses for not being ready and the certainty that we are leaving.
Edit. With the added bonus that corbyn would be xx xx xx.

[Lancasterclaret]

Applies to the overwhelming majority of articles on what might happen in all things relating to Brexit.

It does

But with one huge massive caveat.

Some of them are pretty much agreed amongst those who actually know about it.

Saying "Project Fear" all the time isn't helping anyone change their minds about that.

[Lancasterclaret]

Imagine if europhile Clark is to one to send in the surrender letter or just revoke. Talk about playing into BJ and Farage'so arms at the GE. Bring it on. That would mean re issuing A50 the day after and up to 2 years to prepare properly for no deal if the EU won't play ball. No excuses for not being ready and the certainty that we are leaving.
Edit. With the added bonus that corbyn would be xx xx xx.

Again, you are making the "Colburn Claret mistake"

You assume everyone thinks like you, because most of the people you know think like you.

[taio]

It does

But with one huge massive caveat.

Some of them are pretty much agreed amongst those who actually know about it.

Saying "Project Fear" all the time isn't helping anyone change their minds about that.

A view on those in the know will be a biased view.

[Lancasterclaret]

A view on those in the know will be a biased view.

Who needs "experts" eh?

Thats why we are in such a mess

[Mala591]

A good summary of current backstop options.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern- ... s-44615404" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am still convinced that a Northern Ireland only backstop (EU/UK trade border down the Irish sea) is the only solution that will work.

Anyone interested in discussing the pros and cons of a NI only backstop?

[CombatClaret]

Not true. Plenty of people on here have accepted there will be negative impacts because of brexit.

People have accepted there will be negatives only after the result. The campaign was fought on the pretense that

"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" - Former Brexit Secretary

So it is right we continue on even though what some people likely voted for has turned out to be untrue?

[taio]

Who needs "experts" eh?

Thats why we are in such a mess

I didn't say we don't need experts. I'm suggesting that over last three years the amount of conjecture has been phenomenal. And some of such conjecture has come from people who you would regard as experts - people who you regard as experts will be those who you happen to agree with. And the experts or lack of experts is not why we are in such a mess.