Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:43 pm

It’s no wonder the Brexit Party want Lowbank to canvas for them, he’s a fact free zone when it comes to the EU.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:45 pm

Boris Johnson says the UK will have to accept the "reality" of customs checks on the island of Ireland as part of a #Brexit deal, telling @BBCLauraK ministers will submit "very constructive and far-reaching proposals" to the EU within days

Does he not realise that as soon as you have any form of security at a checkpoint in Ireland then trouble will start up again?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:50 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I do but I am going to watch the others parties start to panic.

Swinson, ruled out backing Corbyn as an interim PM.

She might have a rethink if she realises we out on the 31st which could be by no deal..

This is going to be a very interesting month.

One thing is interesting is that although some people have stated they will never vote again if the referendum isn't honoured I suspect the Brexit debate has got far more people interested in politics than would otherwise be the case. In recent general elections turn-out has been a real issue.

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:57 pm

I think that's enough on chlorinated chicken, it has nothing to do with actually leaving and what deal we have with the EU other than ensuring these issues do not arrive in the EU from the UK part of the border dispute and not limited to Ireland. Presently we don't have any, so not a big issue today but am sure it will be a big issue that is debated down the line when/if we leave and we are in the transition period trying to negotiate other trade deals, particularly with the US.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:01 pm

aggi wrote:It sounds like your research was very limited. The issue isn't the chlorine (where your research seems to have stopped), the issue is that in America they have to wash the chickens in chlorine to try and get rid of bacteria because their welfare standards are much lower than ours.

We have the stance that the bird shouldn't be covered in bacteria to start with, in America the stance is we'll wash it and hope for the best.

That’s not the communication to the general public.

What you say could well be true.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:05 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:That’s not the communication to the general public.

What you say could well be true.

Yes it was

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47440562

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:20 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s no wonder the Brexit Party want Lowbank to canvas for them, he’s a fact free zone when it comes to the EU.

Or perhaps you guys are living in a utopia EU that’s not the reality of what’s going on.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:20 pm

Murger wrote:https://bloom.bg/2oVhbsC

Who'd have thought it eh?

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:28 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Yes it was

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47440562

Point made successfully.

I will point out I only buy free range chicken and pay around £9 per chicken as I completely disagree with intensive farming, but I can afford to.

Also a chicken eats more than £3 worth of food to live for the 26 weeks to slaughter. So they are sold at a loss.

I also understand that people who buy a £3 chicken don’t give a flying f ck about its welfare.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:33 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Point made successfully.

I will point out I only buy free range chicken and pay around £9 per chicken as I completely disagree with intensive farming, but I can afford to.

Also a chicken eats more than £3 worth of food to live for the 26 weeks to slaughter. So they are sold at a loss.

I also understand that people who buy a £3 chicken don’t give a flying f ck about its welfare.

Im not that bothered about the chickens. Its more the inability or lack of care of people to fact check the info they are being fed and are then willing to share as truths.

Ive seen a lot of that from you but you are in no way on your own even just on this messageboard.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:35 pm

Anyone in the Burnley area who wants to eat well looked after meat, beef, lamb, mutton, pork.
Can look no further than Causeway trading, they have a farm shop on the first Sunday of every month.
Just turn left at the kettledrum and follow the signs.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:43 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Im not that bothered about the chickens. Its more the inability or lack of care of people to fact check the info they are being fed and are then willing to share as truths.

Ive seen a lot of that from you but you are in no way on your own even just on this messageboard.

I will accept that happens on both sides.
I can be too rushed to point out info that’s proves to be spurious on scrutiny.

Both also some of the defence of the EU is just plain incorrect, but some are blind to the facts and supply no evidence in support of their stance.

I spent hours researching the taxation this weekend and put charts and links on here which showed the reality of taxation.

I would spend my life trying get proof for everything.

At least I concede my position when you supply evidence.

I had read the article you linked but only selectively remember certain aspects. Therefore conceded I was incorrect.

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Anyone in the Burnley area who wants to eat well looked after meat, beef, lamb, mutton, pork.
Can look no further than Causeway trading, they have a farm shop on the first Sunday of every month.
Just turn left at the kettledrum and follow the signs.

Crikey. Lowbankclaret has been on this thread so long he’s become an ‘influencer’

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:01 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:But if you actually go back to the referendum campaign this isn't actually so far removed from what Farage was advocating.
On Question time (and on other occasions) he's on record, ( and on You Tube) as supporting the Norway option.
This involves all the above except being part of the Customs Union.
If it's good enough for the Leader of the Brexit Party then why is it such a problem?
Presumably as disciples of Le Farage, it's what you voted for 3 years ago.
Or have the goalposts moved?

Yes I think the goalposts have moved. I voted remain because the options just seemed pointless, why leave what we have got just to be tied into things we have no control over. Either stay or leave and live with the consequences, there is no deal that will be acceptable to both sides, compromise is pointless

jontybfc · Post by **jontybfc** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I will accept that happens on both sides.
I can be too rushed to point out info that’s proves to be spurious on scrutiny.

Both also some of the defence of the EU is just plain incorrect, but some are blind to the facts and supply no evidence in support of their stance.

I spent hours researching the taxation this weekend and put charts and links on here which showed the reality of taxation.

I would spend my life trying get proof for everything.

At least I concede my position when you supply evidence.

I had read the article you linked but only selectively remember certain aspects. Therefore conceded I was incorrect.

I’d love it if you spent minutes researching, just have a google before you post, a quick fact check. Could help.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:22 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Point made successfully.

I will point out I only buy free range chicken and pay around £9 per chicken as I completely disagree with intensive farming, but I can afford to.

Also a chicken eats more than £3 worth of food to live for the 26 weeks to slaughter. So they are sold at a loss.

I also understand that people who buy a £3 chicken don’t give a flying f ck about its welfare.

It's kinda weird how you point out that you "can afford to" spend more on a chicken because you disagree with intensive farming, but for some reason assume that people who spend less than you do so because they "don't give a flying f ck about its welfare".

If you couldn't afford to spend £9 per chicken, would you just stop eating chicken? If you didn't stop, does that mean you don't give a flying f ck?

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:27 pm

Spijed wrote:One thing is interesting is that although some people have stated they will never vote again if the referendum isn't honoured I suspect the Brexit debate has got far more people interested in politics than would otherwise be the case. In recent general elections turn-out has been a real issue.

We live in interesting times, whichever side of the fence you come down on.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's kinda weird how you point out that you "can afford to" spend more on a chicken because you disagree with intensive farming, but for some reason assume that people who spend less than you do so because they "don't give a flying f ck about its welfare".

If you couldn't afford to spend £9 per chicken, would you just stop eating chicken? If you didn't stop, does that mean you don't give a flying f ck?

No mate I would just rear my own.
I have about 50 chickens but show them.
We do turn them into soup, as they are not big enough for roasting.

I grew up on farms and can kill any animal, butcher it and have no issues with eating it.

I go out shooting and eat pigeon and rabbit.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm

jontybfc wrote:I’d love it if you spent minutes researching, just have a google before you post, a quick fact check. Could help.

I do, but I think you will find most don’t link anything they post.

I linked or posted several graphs on taxation at the weekend.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:38 pm

: 00FCEBF3-2FBA-41AF-BBFB-C440FAD47480.jpeg (1.1 MiB) Viewed 2900 times

My show chickens.

jontybfc · Post by **jontybfc** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:42 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:That’s what they do all the time passing EU laws we have to abide by no questions asked, and will have to accept more EU intervention if we stayed in.

I think your argument is flawed on this one.

Could you post your research into this?

CleggHall · Post by **CleggHall** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:53 pm

A beautiful bird Lowbank, what breed is it?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:54 pm

Wonder if the Jennifer Arcuri scandal will have any effect?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... n-official" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 pm

CleggHall wrote:A beautiful bird Lowbank, what breed is it?

Claret and blue. Fantastic!

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:05 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
00FCEBF3-2FBA-41AF-BBFB-C440FAD47480.jpeg
My show chickens.

I wonder which chicken will be the first to squawk

Chicken Boris, Chicken Jeremy or Chicken Nigel ?

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:27 pm

Not sure how this thread has descended into chickens, unless we're paying a strange some of homage to that lot down the M65 ...

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:20 pm

Well, we've released our new Brexit Plan.

It's complicated and unwieldy and looks a nightmare.

Get ready for no deal everyone.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's kinda weird how you point out that you "can afford to" spend more on a chicken because you disagree with intensive farming, but for some reason assume that people who spend less than you do so because they "don't give a flying f ck about its welfare".

If you couldn't afford to spend £9 per chicken, would you just stop eating chicken? If you didn't stop, does that mean you don't give a flying f ck?

Yes and yes.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Get ready for no deal everyone.

Which is illegal.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Well, we've released our new Brexit Plan.

It's complicated and unwieldy and looks a nightmare.

Get ready for no deal everyone.

How do you know thd details? Thought it was not coming out until tomorrow afternoon.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:59 pm

Twitter

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:02 pm

Peter Foster has done a really good summary and attached a detail breakdown

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:10 pm

Peter Foster of the Telegraph is making a living out of pessimistically predicting the U.K. suggestions will never fly with the EU.

He might be right but he will look a complete mug if it leads to a deal.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:10 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Twitter

That must be right then.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:13 pm

summitclaret wrote:That must be right then.

Do you use Twitter?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:26 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Do you use Twitter?

From what I gave read even most of the cabinet don't know the details yet so anything out now cam only be speculation.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:29 pm

The Tweets from reporters appear in this instance to be true. It is common for politicians to brief the night before a big speech (one I intend to get an early train to go and watch).

The key to me seems to be whether Ireland and the EU accept that the UK has a sovereign right after Brexit to have our own customs territory for the whole UK, and if they do accept that (it is surely unreasonable not to) do they then accept that Boris’s offer is the best way of solving it?

I get that they would like us to revoke or to keep in their Customs orbit, but if they realistically accept those are not going to happen, what other shape of arrangement is possible? Very little, it seems to me, which means after “no deal” (after a Johnson election victory) the border would still be built in the way that Boris is proposing.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:33 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Well, we've released our new Brexit Plan.

It's complicated and unwieldy and looks a nightmare.

Get ready for no deal everyone.

1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have ONE.

3 we constantly here, "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?

Swerve ..........

In coming.......

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:34 pm

Well apparently its been briefed to the EU capitals today and this story is leaked to Johnsons's paper the Telegraph and the tweet is outlining the story they are running with tomorrow

It has been discussed on newsnight and the opinion was based on who it was leaked to that it is almost certainly true and it has already been shot down by both the Irish govt and the opposition on Irish TV who have stated if it is true then there's no way it will fly with them or the EU.

Also on twitter a lot of respectable in the know people are backing the story so I would say 99% it is likely to be right though we can never be certain.

We will see soon enough but if it is correct then see LC's post further up for a good simple summary.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:51 pm

All the reporters and guests on newsnight seem to think this is a non starter.

Only one news programme, but still...

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:15 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:Appreciate the response and you've made some interesting points, but you've run my argument together with someone else's which is always a bad move in a forum (in the general sense) like this.

I applaud your suggestion of getting the centre of democracy on the move to other parts of the country: the details are a bit sketchy but it's a good idea. A bit like what myself and Andrew are suggesting.

A national economy does not function like the budget of the average household, and that view is assented to by the vast majority of academic economists and has, despite the Conservatives economic plans, also been accepted by the IMF since early 2010. Austerity is, and was, bad economics - it was also, in my view, morally wrong.

There was no suggestion on my part that there was any malign motive on the part of the 'rich' to make the poor poorer. It is, as you rightly intimate, a nonsensical idea: globally, who are the 'rich' if not the median earners of this country? Graciously, you have now stated that you, like me, want a fairer society and that is a good thing: we are not just trading insults but talking on a plane where we might learn something from on another. That's how political discussion used to be.

As it is, unsurprisingly, I disagree: I think you are pessimistic bordering on defeatist. I think you suppose that a government cannot increase taxes simply because another government might offer lower rates and, as a result, we are beholden to the lowest bidder. This is an empirical argument. Not my forte. Here is what I offer as a riposte: already nations offer lower taxation rates than the UK, so why do companies still continue to trade here? Why do companies trade in nations with an even higher tax burden?

I suggest it is not so simple as you make out, just as it is not simple as the UK being a house whose roof needs mending whilst the sun is shining.

Hi HBH, you will have to excuse me on the "combined" response, I was in a rush to get out to work. Just back home now, after a very enjoyable evening: "A very expensive poison" by Lucy Prebble. Excellently written and staged at The Old Vic (near London Waterloo, for any not familiar with London theatres).

I'm unsure why you are referencing "average household budgets" and "national economies" - I make no link between the two. However, if you are arguing that "austerity" was wrong, the truthful answer is "what austerity?" There was no "big cut back" in Government spending; deficit expenditure has continued every year since 2010, that's why the national debt has continued to grow. Yes, there's been adjustments and re-prioritizing - and this was all necessary. Bad economics was the path that Gordon Brown had set the country on - "no more boom and bust" - unfortunately, GB led us to "bust." "There's no more money" was the truth.

It's bad economics to measure everything from the peak of a bubble. The summer of 2008 was that peak. If we measure from a few years earlier, let's say 2004 or 2005, then trend lines look a lot better - and personal wellbeing is also a lot better. Why measure stuff when it's all froth?

I like the idea of "reasonable debate" - and I hope that no one feels that I'm insulting them.

Yes, we disagree. I'm surprised why you think I am "pessimistic bordering on defeatist." I'm an optimist by nature. I'm not "defeatist" on a government not being able to increase taxes.....whatever other countries do. I feel there is a fair share of someone's income that the government can "demand" is paid in taxes - and there is a level above this level that is neither fair nor achieves the government's aim of "plucking the golden goose" without too much hissing and the death of the goose. If a country is "civilised," "cultured" and "balanced" then many people will choose to live there and be content to pay their fair share in taxes. On the other hand, if the state is "too ambitious" then the people who feel themselves to get the "worst of the bargain" will look elsewhere and settle somewhere where they feel "more fairly treated." I am referencing personal income tax rates.

You mention taxes on corporations and why do companies continue to trade in one country or another. The answer is straightforward, companies organise their operational presence according to the optimisation of their operational costs - be that a manufacturing presence, or a service centre presence, or a legal structure presence. (Why is London one of the world's major financial centres? why are a number of the major accountancy and legal firms in London, why is Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing in Midlands and in Central Europe? why is Nissan in Sunderland. Why does Airbus manufacture wings in Bristol and North Wales and other aircraft parts in other European countries?). The same companies then locate their market presence based on where their markets. i.e. their customers are? And, they organise their taxable presence according to internationally agreed tax laws - and their corporate activities that establish their corporate "permanent establishment(s)." (I've done some of this stuff in my career, I've passing understanding of PE tax rules, transfer pricing, thin capitalisation and similar - but, I'm very, very far from being an expert). So, some finance companies choose to locate around Dublin, because RoI offers favourable tax deals. Similarly, Microsoft has based their European headquarters in Dublin for favourable tax treatment. And then, along come all the "new" giant technology companies, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter (I guess) - and the international tax rules were set up long before the internet and this new technology existed, so these new companies "follow the rules" and we don't like it.

Enough for tonight. I've got work again in the morning.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:31 am

“what austerity?”

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:48 am

Appears to be a "take it or leave it" offer from the UK.

Refusing to accept that what we want is not going to happen without also accepting that we might have to put up with stuff we don't want has been the problem before the referendum, during the referendum and after the referendum.

And this is the end result.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:56 am

The Irish border issue summed up superbly in 2 mins

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 3108643840" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:06 am

Well I have seen Newsnight now.

Even the Irish gov apparently don't know what the proposal is yet, nor do the EC. But the eu country leaders ( probably the key ones do).

We had the Irish Gov rep not budging an inch which is hardly a surprise at this stage. Of course we will say it will be a final offer at this stage. May had no clue how to negotiate.

I don't doubt that Jonathan Powell knows a lot about the GFA and understand why he is precious about it. Wr all are. However what he says is likely to support the Blair remain position.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:11 am

summitclaret wrote:Well I have seen Newsnight now.

Even the Irish gov apparently don't know what the proposal is yet, nor do the EC. But the eu country leaders ( probably the key ones do).

We had the Irish Gov rep not budging an inch which is hardly a surprise at this stage. Of course we will say it will be a final offer at this stage. May had no clue how to negotiate.

I don't doubt that Jonathan Powell knows a lot about the GFA and understand why he is precious about it. Wr all are. However what he says is likely to support the Blair remain position.

No, what he does is give reasons why a hard border in Ireland completely puts at risk the GFA.

Which is still one of the most remarkable and amazing diplomatic achievements you will see.

And its being put at risk because we can't accept reality, and that people who don't have a clue about NI think its not going to have an effect (or worse, just don't care)

Thousands of UK citizens, policemen and soldiers died

The GFA stopped that.

To me, any deal should make sure that GFA is protected first and foremost, and this deal does not do that.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:35 am

How do you know? Even Simon Coveney does not know the details yet as has said on Sky just now.

Of course delicate but the time has come to sort it. I doubt very much that what ends up will actually physically be a hard border. Politically though?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No, what he does is give reasons why a hard border in Ireland completely puts at risk the GFA.

Which is still one of the most remarkable and amazing diplomatic achievements you will see.

And its being put at risk because we can't accept reality, and that people who don't have a clue about NI think its not going to have an effect (or worse, just don't care)

Thousands of UK citizens, policemen and soldiers died

The GFA stopped that.

To me, any deal should make sure that GFA is protected first and foremost, and this deal does not do that.

This all reads a little bit like "We should allow the threat of terrorism to dictate UK policy."

Am I reading it wrong?

claret_in_exile · Post by **claret_in_exile** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:05 am

If it be your will wrote:This all reads a little bit like "We should allow the threat of terrorism to dictate UK policy."

Am I reading it wrong?

Surely it's more about honoring our obligations made to secure a very hard-fought peace?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:08 am

If it be your will wrote:This all reads a little bit like "We should allow the threat of terrorism to dictate UK policy."

Am I reading it wrong?

Yes

Maybe just for once you could look at Brexit from a non-UK perspective?

Essentially the UK Govt promised that Brexit wouldn't affect the GFA.

This deal does not fufill that promise made to the signatures and guarantees of the GFA

But no, it surrendering to terrorists!?!