Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:14 am

claret_in_exile wrote:Surely it's more about honoring our obligations made to secure a very hard-fought peace?
The bold bit, certainly yes. This is the important bit. In both spirit and letter.

But we should avoid the threat of violence featuring too heavily.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:16 am

If it be your will wrote:The bold bit, certainly yes. This is the important bit. In both spirit and letter.

But we should avoid the threat of violence featuring too heavily.
What level of deaths would you be happy with ITBYW?

For your Brexit?

500 a year?

Less?

More?
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

If it be your will
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:16 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes

Maybe just for once you could look at Brexit from a non-UK perspective?

Essentially the UK Govt promised that Brexit wouldn't affect the GFA.

This deal does not fufill that promise made to the signatures and guarantees of the GFA

But no, it surrendering to terrorists!?!
Again. if this bit is true, I agree we have a problem.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:17 am

If it be your will wrote:This all reads a little bit like "We should allow the threat of terrorism to dictate UK policy."

Am I reading it wrong?
Jesus wept, I was waiting for this narrative to be brought out sooner or later but expected it to come from the Brexit Party right wing clowns who couldn't give a sh*t about anything but getting exactly what they want and not from a poster like IIBYW.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What level of deaths would you be happy with ITBYW?

For your Brexit?

500 a year?

Less?

More?
...but if this bit is a primary driver, we also have a problem.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:22 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Jesus wept, I was waiting for this narrative to be brought out sooner or later but expected it to come from the Brexit Party right wing clowns who couldn't give a sh*t about anything but getting exactly what they want and not from a poster like IIBYW.
Okay, I can see there is no chance of a sensible discussion on this very important balance of principles, so I'll leave it there.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:31 am

FIRST CASE OF BREXIT PSYCHOSIS REPORTED!!!



The Brexit referendum caused a man to have an acute psychotic illness, with him suffering a serious of hallucinations and delusions, a doctor has said. 

This is the first reported case of Brexit-triggered psychosis, according to a new report which warns political upheaval can take a serious toll on mental health.

The male patient, who is in his forties, found his mental health “deteriorated rapidly” shortly after the results of the EU referendum. He also became increasingly worried about racial incidents and, after being admitted to a psychiatric ward, said he felt “ashamed” to be British.

Dr Muhammad Zia Ul Haq Katshu, who treated the patient, wrote: “His wife reported that since the EU referendum results were declared on 24 June 2016, he started spending more time putting his thoughts across on social media.

“He found it difficult to reconcile with the political events happening around him. He became increasingly worried about racial incidents. His sleep deteriorated.”


Once admitted, the unnamed patient was described as agitated, attempting to “burrow” through the hospital floor with his hands to “get the hell out of this place”. He believed he was being spied on and that talks on the radio were directed at him.

The patient later said: “I was looking at the electoral map of voting for the EU. I am in a constituency that reflects an opinion that is not for me.”


Come on which one of you is it!!??
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:33 am

If it be your will wrote:...but if this bit is a primary driver, we also have a problem.
Reality though

What is more important to people on the island of Ireland?

Brexit? Or the GFA?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:46 am

If it be your will wrote:Okay, I can see there is no chance of a sensible discussion on this very important balance of principles, so I'll leave it there.
You are normally very sound, but if you debate like Ringo, then you are going to get the replies Ringo gets.

But again, this deal is a deal for the Brexiteers first and foremost.

The GFA is not as important to the strategy that secures Brexit as that.

Its that simple (sadly)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:06 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are normally very sound, but if you debate like Ringo, then you are going to get the replies Ringo gets.

But again, this deal is a deal for the Brexiteers first and foremost.

The GFA is not as important to the strategy that secures Brexit as that.

Its that simple (sadly)

Sneer sneer!

Please reply to the following-

1 Remoaners have not accepted the result of the 2016 Peoples Vote. Why should brexiteers believe them when they claim theyd accept another Leave vote?

2 Why should I as a brexiteer have to win TWO referenda for my views to be actually implemented, where as you as a remoaner would only need to have won ONE.

3 we constantly hear "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?







So far, you simply haven't replied . I genuinely dont think they're unreasonable things to ask Lancasterclaret.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:08 am

PMQs today.

Dominic Raab to face Diana Abbot!


Insert your own jokes here!

:lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:09 am

If it be your will wrote:...but if this bit is a primary driver, we also have a problem.
If it be your will is right on this.

What was the intention of the GFA, peace in NI or locking 2 countries into the same membership status of the EU forever?

There's got to be flexibility. Surely anything else is not honouring the peaceful aims of the EU?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:15 am

Heard that the Benn Bill breaks convention.

Back benchers by passing a law that extends our membership means we have to contribute around a billion quid each month we remain. This means they have had obliged the government to change its budget and financial commitments, which they are not allowed to do. Only certain ministers are allowed to do it

May not be verbatim, but that's what Vernon Bogdanor said.

Wonder if that's why they're sounding so confident that we can still leave on WTO terms on 31st october?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:20 am

Paul Waine wrote:If it be your will is right on this.

What was the intention of the GFA, peace in NI or locking 2 countries into the same membership status of the EU forever?

There's got to be flexibility. Surely anything else is not honouring the peaceful aims of the EU?
The sole intention of the GFA is peace.

Again, to imply the 2nd part is joining in with the Brexiteer narrative.

Its perfectly possible to Brexit and to protect the GFA.

But is it possible to Brexit while protecting the GFA so a Brexit voter in Kettering will be happy with Brexit?

Thats the conundrum that we have in the UK.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:21 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Heard that the Benn Bill breaks convention.

Back benchers by passing a law that extends our membership means we have to contribute around a billion quid each month we remain. This means they have had obliged the government to change its budget and financial commitments, which they are not allowed to do. Only certain ministers are allowed to do it

May not be verbatim, but that's what Vernon Bogdanor said.

Wonder if that's why they're sounding so confident that we can still leave on WTO terms on 31st october?
Budgeting would have been done on the basis of us getting a deal and being in a transition period until the end of next year. That theory only has any legs if the government admit it’s always been their intention to leave with no deal on 31st and therefore they haven’t budgeted for continued payments to the EU during transition.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:29 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Heard that the Benn Bill breaks convention.

Back benchers by passing a law that extends our membership means we have to contribute around a billion quid each month we remain. This means they have had obliged the government to change its budget and financial commitments, which they are not allowed to do. Only certain ministers are allowed to do it

May not be verbatim, but that's what Vernon Bogdanor said.

Wonder if that's why they're sounding so confident that we can still leave on WTO terms on 31st october?
If that's the case you would have thought it would have gone to court to resolve the legality of the Benn Bill straight away.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:33 am

Paul Waine wrote:If it be your will is right on this.

What was the intention of the GFA, peace in NI or locking 2 countries into the same membership status of the EU forever?

There's got to be flexibility. Surely anything else is not honouring the peaceful aims of the EU?
I don't think those who signed the GFA did so with the intention of creating a problem for Britain should we wish to leave the EU, however the GFA Is a reality, and one treated as incidental or of little importance during the referendum itself by advocates of leave when John Major and Tony Blair brought it up.

It's happened time and time again that the promises and claims made by the leave campaign, have ended up being wrong. Bear in mind this article was written several weeks before the actual vote, when a customs union or staying in the single market was considered a viable option - and doing that would alleviate the issues around the Northern Ireland border. But now, with the government not considering a CU, it's become the intractable problem leavers claimed was just scare mongering:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ing-Brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:33 am

A billion pounds a month would be much better spent on the NHS and social care. By staying in the EU we are depriving these essential and underfunded services from much needed investment.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:34 am

Spijed wrote:If that's the case you would have thought it would have gone to court to resolve the legality of the Benn Bill straight away.
Think Martin is right on this one. However any reference to court will be at the last minute to try to prevent more rebel laws. I still think they will challenge that the surrender act was too rushed and no time for proper scrutiny.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:36 am

summitclaret wrote:Think Martin is right on this one. However any reference to court will be at the last minute to try to prevent more rebel laws. I still think they will challenge that the surrender act was too rushed and no time for proper scrutiny.
Thats a given.

But the reassuring thing to take out of the last couple of hours is that the governments plan to avoid breaking the law is to get a deal and get the EU to not give an extension.

Its a small positive to take in these troubled times, but its still a positive.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:38 am

Spijed wrote:If that's the case you would have thought it would have gone to court to resolve the legality of the Benn Bill straight away.
Youd think so, but maybe tactically it could be better to throw the spanner in the works at the last minute. It was just a thought.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:45 am

summitclaret wrote:Think Martin is right on this one. However any reference to court will be at the last minute to try to prevent more rebel laws. I still think they will challenge that the surrender act was too rushed and no time for proper scrutiny.
I think it’s also the case that continued membership just reduces the divorce bill, the £39 billion, anyway. So any extension up to December 2020 is cost neutral. We can only be saving money if we leave with no deal and refuse to pay the ‘divorce bill’.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:46 am

Mala591 wrote:A billion pounds a month would be much better spent on the NHS and social care. By staying in the EU we are depriving these essential and underfunded services from much needed investment.
No we aren’t. See my other posts.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:48 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ook-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Has this been discussed yet or is Bloomberg news considered too bias on either side?

On first impression it seems Boris is having an affect.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:49 am

martin_p wrote:No we aren’t. See my other posts.
We've f**k all chance of sorting this out if people just believe the stuff they want to, rather than stuff that is actually true.

And yes, I'm well aware that I could have posted this tweet in 2016, in 2017, in 2018 etc etc etc

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:49 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ook-brexit
Has this been discussed yet or is Bloomberg news considered too bias on either side?

On first impression it seems Boris is having an affect.
Discussed yesterday, debunked by the EU last night.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:53 am

Mala591 wrote:A billion pounds a month would be much better spent on the NHS and social care. By staying in the EU we are depriving these essential and underfunded services from much needed investment.
You still at that place? #believeinthebus

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:We've f**k all chance of sorting this out if people just believe the stuff they want to, rather than stuff that is actually true.

And yes, I'm well aware that I could have posted this tweet in 2016, in 2017, in 2018 etc etc etc
You've repeatedly said the only way out looks , to you like a 2nd referendum.

We constantly hear "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:57 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi HBH, you will have to excuse me on the "combined" response, I was in a rush to get out to work. Just back home now, after a very enjoyable evening: "A very expensive poison" by Lucy Prebble. Excellently written and staged at The Old Vic (near London Waterloo, for any not familiar with London theatres).

I'm unsure why you are referencing "average household budgets" and "national economies" - I make no link between the two. However, if you are arguing that "austerity" was wrong, the truthful answer is "what austerity?" There was no "big cut back" in Government spending; deficit expenditure has continued every year since 2010, that's why the national debt has continued to grow. Yes, there's been adjustments and re-prioritizing - and this was all necessary. Bad economics was the path that Gordon Brown had set the country on - "no more boom and bust" - unfortunately, GB led us to "bust." "There's no more money" was the truth.

It's bad economics to measure everything from the peak of a bubble. The summer of 2008 was that peak. If we measure from a few years earlier, let's say 2004 or 2005, then trend lines look a lot better - and personal wellbeing is also a lot better. Why measure stuff when it's all froth?

I like the idea of "reasonable debate" - and I hope that no one feels that I'm insulting them.

Yes, we disagree. I'm surprised why you think I am "pessimistic bordering on defeatist." I'm an optimist by nature. I'm not "defeatist" on a government not being able to increase taxes.....whatever other countries do. I feel there is a fair share of someone's income that the government can "demand" is paid in taxes - and there is a level above this level that is neither fair nor achieves the government's aim of "plucking the golden goose" without too much hissing and the death of the goose. If a country is "civilised," "cultured" and "balanced" then many people will choose to live there and be content to pay their fair share in taxes. On the other hand, if the state is "too ambitious" then the people who feel themselves to get the "worst of the bargain" will look elsewhere and settle somewhere where they feel "more fairly treated." I am referencing personal income tax rates.

You mention taxes on corporations and why do companies continue to trade in one country or another. The answer is straightforward, companies organise their operational presence according to the optimisation of their operational costs - be that a manufacturing presence, or a service centre presence, or a legal structure presence. (Why is London one of the world's major financial centres? why are a number of the major accountancy and legal firms in London, why is Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing in Midlands and in Central Europe? why is Nissan in Sunderland. Why does Airbus manufacture wings in Bristol and North Wales and other aircraft parts in other European countries?). The same companies then locate their market presence based on where their markets. i.e. their customers are? And, they organise their taxable presence according to internationally agreed tax laws - and their corporate activities that establish their corporate "permanent establishment(s)." (I've done some of this stuff in my career, I've passing understanding of PE tax rules, transfer pricing, thin capitalisation and similar - but, I'm very, very far from being an expert). So, some finance companies choose to locate around Dublin, because RoI offers favourable tax deals. Similarly, Microsoft has based their European headquarters in Dublin for favourable tax treatment. And then, along come all the "new" giant technology companies, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter (I guess) - and the international tax rules were set up long before the internet and this new technology existed, so these new companies "follow the rules" and we don't like it.

Enough for tonight. I've got work again in the morning.
- I'm afraid austerity was real.
- I don't understand why you'd want to tie a governments hands by saying no more than forty percent of a person's income should be taxed away (is this in the Bible or something?). Already we do that, so people paying back student loans could be paying sixty percent out of their salaries - or are you going to lump that in with mortgage and credit card payments? It's like that 19th Century argument that property is sacrosanct. The argument has to be considered holistically. If I'm being taxed at 90% on my income over £1 Million, I might feel disappointed, but it's not going to kill me. At the other end of the spectrum, people do actually die as a result of public services being underfunded. Seven hundred deaths of homeless people in the last year, for example. From a moral standpoint - especially when you get into the stratosphere of wealth - there is no argument for people hanging on to more of what they've earned, when other people in the same country have a lot less. You can argue that these people don't care about anyone else, and are mobile - and I say there's nothing wrong with the country taking punitive measures against such people - deny them access to our markets (once we have our sovereignty back we can do this), tax their passports and foreign earnings, and I'm sure there are people with more able imaginations than I have that could come up with other incentives to get people to pay in.
- with multinational corporations the best way to prevent them avoiding tax is for countries to work together. I hope that even though we're leaving the EU, Britain works with the rest of the EU to accomplish this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:02 am

Fact check:

Latest figures for NET annual payment to the EU is £11 billion. Not quite £1 billion a month but not far off.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:03 am

A referendum is considered a finance bill, only the government can enact one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:05 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You've repeatedly said the only way out looks , to you like a 2nd referendum.

We constantly hear "the referendum has caused division and uncertainty "

Please explain to me how you believe having another will actually bring to an end "division and uncertainty"?
Proper questions get proper answers.

I've said I want a deal a lot more times than a 2nd ref!

2nd ref is the last resort, but if we are very close to that stage.

Nothing will bring an end to the division, but a deal, no-deal, GE, 2nd ref all at least have a potential to end the "uncertainty"

QUICK EDIT - the right deal would deal with the division I think, but it would have to be an all party agreed one, which is something that I just can't see happening.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:09 am

Mala591 wrote:Fact check:

Latest figures for NET annual payment to the EU is £11 billion. Not quite £1 billion a month but not far off.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please read all of this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:10 am

Mala591 wrote:Fact check:

Latest figures for NET annual payment to the EU is £11 billion. Not quite £1 billion a month but not far off.
I suggest you go and read my posts again. I haven’t disputed what we pay, just the notion that we’d budgeted to stop paying it on 31st October.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:12 am

AndyClaret wrote:A referendum is considered a finance bill, only the government can enact one.
What is this supposed to be saying?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:39 am

martin_p wrote:What is this supposed to be saying?
Just saying that only the government can enact a second referendum.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:40 am

And more pressure from the big guaranteer of the GFA

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/stat ... 1280670720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And more pressure from the big guaranteer of the GFA

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/stat ... 1280670720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So basically Trump has no power whatsoever to approve a trade deal on his own.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:48 am

AndyClaret wrote:Just saying that only the government can enact a second referendum.
You mean only the government can call a second referendum or only a government can enact the outcome of a second referendum?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am

Cummings on Tories
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/11 ... 62530?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:17 pm

Johnston just said the Irish Border was a "technical issue"

This is a speech for Tory heartlands (at least I hope it is)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BurningBeard » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:10 pm

aggi wrote:Cummings on Tories
Not even if they were on fire.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:30 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Proper questions get proper answers.

I've said I want a deal a lot more times than a 2nd ref!

2nd ref is the last resort, but if we are very close to that stage.

Nothing will bring an end to the division, but a deal, no-deal, GE, 2nd ref all at least have a potential to end the "uncertainty"

QUICK EDIT - the right deal would deal with the division I think, but it would have to be an all party agreed one, which is something that I just can't see happening.

Even though I've asked you the very same question, as part of a 3 question post, you've decided to graciously decide, in only the lofty way you can , that I'm now asking it in the "proper way"!


You say you want a deal. Before a 2nd referendum.

You say it's a last resort.

You admit it wont bring an end to the division.

But you claim it could have the potential to end the uncertainty.






How and why?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Johnston just said the Irish Border was a "technical issue"

This is a speech for Tory heartlands (at least I hope it is)
Nick Robinson sums it up well.

‘The Irish border problem is summed up by @BorisJohnson as “essentially a technical discussion of the exact nature of customs checks.” The EU see it as about peace in Ireland, defending the European ideal & the single market. This gulf in understanding may not be bridgeable’
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:39 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Even though I've asked you the very same question, as part of a 3 question post, you've decided to graciously decide, in only the lofty way you can , that I'm now asking it in the "proper way"!


You say you want a deal. Before a 2nd referendum.

You say it's a last resort.

You admit it wont bring an end to the division.

But you claim it could have the potential to end the uncertainty.






How and why?
If you use the language you use, then you don't get an answer.

Its not hard to grasp is it Ringo?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Siddo » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:03 pm

Patel has just confirmed that we are now the only major European country who's citizens cannot live, work, study or retire to Italy, Spain, France, Germany etc, etc.
Can anyone honestly say that is a step forward?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:If you use the language you use, then you don't get an answer.

Its not hard to grasp is it Ringo?
Get over yourself, stop being so self righteous.

I've lost count of how many times you've spoken down to various people in that pompous , superior and pontificating manner , just because they have a different view to you,that's lead to them telling you to get off your high horse and stop sneering.

So I'm not going to take a lecture from you about language.


I get it.

You cant answer, and you find it easier to whine on about language!

The question is just too awkward for you to give an honest answer.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:51 pm

If it be your will wrote:It'd be really difficult to think of one in the last 30 years without launching ourselves across cultural and economic landscapes, thus making any comparison meaningless.

If you're looking for an example in an advanced Western economy, there's not actually much to choose from. The EU forbids it, and the US is the land of the free-market - that rules out most of the West immediately. All that's really left is Australia, Canada, and New Zealand (I honestly don't know the situation there). There are examples of the things I speak of in the EFTA countries, despite them being closely tied to the EU, e.g. Iceland's energy sector (up to 2006) and their health sector. There's Swiss Railways, too. And the Bank of North Dakota in the US is an approximation of the proposed NIB. The truth is the neoliberal model has dominated western civilisation for the last 30 years. But it's not as if the alternative economic model is uniquely novel - most European citizens have living memory of it.

I'm at least glad the conversation has moved on from Of Course Corbyn could implement his manifesto as a member of the EU to Has anyone implemented something approximating to Corbyn's manifesto before? The answer to which is a resounding yes: "Most of Europe pre-Maastricht"

(Notice how I borrowed one of your debating tactics there?)
Cheers, that's an interesting answer. The Scandinavian companies would have been my first guess.

I agree there was much more in the way of nationalised companies in years gone by although I'm not convinced, even if we left the EU, that the world is still the same place. With the likely obligations of new trade agreements do you think that we'd be able to be heavily nationalised and still trade within the world? I remember reading an article a while ago suggesting that state aid rules roughly in line with the EU's would be necessary to agree a trade deal with them (obviously that hasn't been an issue for a long time as our state aid spending is about a third or so of Germany, France, etc but would put a crimp in your hopes).

Why do you think countries have moved away from that kind of model? You cite Maastricht but obviously it was those self-same countries who came up with Maastricht so there must have been something prior to that.

(I'm not sure which debating tactic you're referring to.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:58 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Yep right, keep saying, you will believe it eventually.

How does Clair Fox being a Brexit ME-p and being a Marxist figure then.
Claire Fox (and others such as Brendan O'Neill) may class themselves as Marxist but where they are now isn't where they claim to be. I lived with someone who worked for Spiked so I'm probably a bit more familiar with her than many.

It may have sprung from Living Marxism but most are professional contrarians more than anything. Given that Spiked, and by extension people such as Claire Fox, have been funded by the Koch brothers it's pretty difficult to argue that they're not right-wing.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Mala591 wrote:Fact check:

Latest figures for NET annual payment to the EU is £11 billion. Not quite £1 billion a month but not far off.
https://fullfact.org/europe/1-billion-brexit-extension/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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