Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:34 pm

Robert Peston
@Peston
Labour has insisted all its MPs are in Commons tomorrow. I imagine that is because they will want to use Standing Order 24 to make sure that whenever the Commons is sitting between now and 31 October MPs have whatever powers they think they need to...

try to block a no-deal Brexit. But without removing @BorisJohnson as PM they cannot be confident they will get their Brexit delay. And right now they are a long way from having a credible and workable plan to remove him. Some three and a bit weeks of turbulent history start now.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Words fail me

Evening Lancs.

You never did come back to me yesterday on my question as to whether Boris’s lies (which I accept) are worse than Blair’s lies over Iraq, Cameron’s lies over enacting the referendum or May’s lies to get the Tory leadership?

I could then add Corbyn’s lies (e.g. never supporting or meeting the IRA said to Andrew Neil in 2017) and Swinson’s lies (aside from not declaring the family company getting €3.5m, she clearly lied about the origins of the referendum, which originally came from the Lib Dems).

I can’t accept people calling out BJ for (mainly) lies about personal issues or in journalist editing unless they also call out the other stuff above. It’s fine to want someone totally pure as PM (though it would be a small pool), but let’s not single BJ out for opportunistic reasons and pretend he is different to the others.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:52 pm

martin_p wrote:I asked would he organisation in question lose the EU funding if we left the EU, you haven’t answered. It’s key to whether there’s any perceived conflict of interest.

You can ask all you like Marty.

It doesn't matter one iota what questions are asked on a football message board.

It's how its perceived by the electorate out there.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:58 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:

You can ask all you like Marty.

It doesn't matter one iota what questions are asked on a football message board.

It's how its perceived by the electorate out there.

Don’t worry, I’m well past expecting anything resembling an answer from you.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:59 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Evening Lancs.

You never did come back to me yesterday on my question as to whether Boris’s lies (which I accept) are worse than Blair’s lies over Iraq, Cameron’s lies over enacting the referendum or May’s lies to get the Tory leadership?

I could then add Corbyn’s lies (e.g. never supporting or meeting the IRA said to Andrew Neil in 2017) and Swinson’s lies (aside from not declaring the family company getting €3.5m, she clearly lied about the origins of the referendum, which originally came from the Lib Dems).

I can’t accept people calling out BJ for (mainly) lies about personal issues or in journalist editing unless they also call out the other stuff above. It’s fine to want someone totally pure as PM (though it would be a small pool), but let’s not single BJ out for opportunistic reasons and pretend he is different to the others.

You'll find that when Lancasterclaret says "words fail me" , it means answers fail him.

When he doesn't come back to you its because you've asked him a tricky question that he hopes that, by now, you've gone away.

Believe me, I've had over 3 years of this kind of stuff.

Remember this.

Lancasterclaret , in one of his more pompous, pontificating moments claimed, and I quote,

" I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time "

Good luck.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:09 am

martin_p wrote:Don’t worry, I’m well past expecting anything resembling an answer from you.

Read the above post back to yourself!

You might as well have said, "and I'll scratch your bloody eyes out. Bitch"

Your roots need doing Marty!!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:30 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You'll find that when Lancasterclaret says "words fail me" , it means answers fail him.

When he doesn't come back to you its because you've asked him a tricky question that he hopes that, by now, you've gone away.

Believe me, I've had over 3 years of this kind of stuff.

Remember this.

Lancasterclaret , in one of his more pompous, pontificating moments claimed, and I quote,

" I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time "

Good luck.

You are obsessed with me mate.

Its not healthy

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:40 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Evening Lancs.

You never did come back to me yesterday on my question as to whether Boris’s lies (which I accept) are worse than Blair’s lies over Iraq, Cameron’s lies over enacting the referendum or May’s lies to get the Tory leadership?

I could then add Corbyn’s lies (e.g. never supporting or meeting the IRA said to Andrew Neil in 2017) and Swinson’s lies (aside from not declaring the family company getting €3.5m, she clearly lied about the origins of the referendum, which originally came from the Lib Dems).

I can’t accept people calling out BJ for (mainly) lies about personal issues or in journalist editing unless they also call out the other stuff above. It’s fine to want someone totally pure as PM (though it would be a small pool), but let’s not single BJ out for opportunistic reasons and pretend he is different to the others.

Sorry Crosspool, been out and about a lot this weekend so only just had a chance for a proper post this morning.

I think you are missing the pattern of Johnsons lies to be perfectly honest. Since he started off as a journalist in Brussels for the Telegraph, he's consistently lied to further his own career.

I mean, your defence makes more sense that Jakubs hilarious one and I do accept that on all sides, the standards in public life have fallen well below what is required for a proper functioning democracy, but Johnsons entire career is based on lying, and then convincing those that matter that those lies have ever happened or have been "blown out of all proportion".

and whether you like it or not, the element of trust that is required in all diplomatic events between very friendly states (as in UK-EU relations) is not there. That is not just Johnsons fault, but its certainly a factor in the current impass.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:52 am

And I've no idea who thought it was a good idea for his current scandal to be on GMB, but I doubt its helping his image or his reputation as a trusted politician.

I know its impossible to get a proper answer from some on this, but surely the argument that "as long as he delivers Brexit, we will argue thats he's trustworthy regardless of any facts whatsoever" is a desperate one?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:21 am

Interesting thread on electoral polling v vote v Brexit - none of it remotely good for Labour

https://twitter.com/benwansell/status/1 ... 0322342912" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:03 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Evening Lancs.

You never did come back to me yesterday on my question as to whether Boris’s lies (which I accept) are worse than Blair’s lies over Iraq, Cameron’s lies over enacting the referendum or May’s lies to get the Tory leadership?

I could then add Corbyn’s lies (e.g. never supporting or meeting the IRA said to Andrew Neil in 2017) and Swinson’s lies (aside from not declaring the family company getting €3.5m, she clearly lied about the origins of the referendum, which originally came from the Lib Dems).

I can’t accept people calling out BJ for (mainly) lies about personal issues or in journalist editing unless they also call out the other stuff above. It’s fine to want someone totally pure as PM (though it would be a small pool), but let’s not single BJ out for opportunistic reasons and pretend he is different to the others.

As PM Johnson was always going to get this extra scrutiny. It's different to the lies you allege to the other politicians (I think Blair railroaded us into war too, but I don't think he has been proven to have lied - and as for the others, they're a matter for opinion too), because Johnson has a big backhistory of lies and sleaze, and has already told a series of porkers while being in office for a very short period of time. The "we have no plans to prorogue parliament" - when we know from leaked cabinet documents that this had already been decided, and then going ahead and doing just this as "nothing to do with brexit". And the sleaze - today it was announced that the London Assembly has demanded answers about his role with the American business woman, Arcuri (how she got onto a trade delegation despite not being eligible, how she won the grant without her company being eligible under the criteria - not being British, and not being large enough), and the Garden Bridge debacle (which he's never properly accounted for).

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:05 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:So it wouldnt be as simple as just an NI referendum and all the problems disappear as it would still need considerable negotiation and agreement with the EU and the ROI to enact the result and thats assuming they vote to remain in the EU in the way you propose

An agreement that would be impossible to execute without compromising political stability in Ireland nor the the EU's principle desire, which is to protect the single market. Not to mention the precedent it sets. If NI get another referendum, then why not Scotland who also voted to remain? It's a ridiculous proposal.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:07 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Interesting thread on electoral polling v vote v Brexit - none of it remotely good for Labour

https://twitter.com/benwansell/status/1 ... 0322342912" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which is why there probably won't be a GE soon. Barry Gardiner on Sky this morning said that an alternative was a coalition governnent, implying that it could continue for some while. What bothers me is that I can't see the tory manifesto deniers wanting an election as they would be toast. However, I can see most of them voting for a deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:18 am

summitclaret wrote:Which is why there probably won't be a GE soon. Barry Gardiner on Sky this morning said that an alternative was a coalition governnent, implying that it could continue for some while. What bothers me is that I can't see the tory manifesto deniers wanting an election as they would be toast. However, I can see most of them voting for a deal.

I can't now

I think the Tories have banked it all on a "No Deal" Brexit because that is what its support base wants.

I suspect (like the Labour position) that they have overestimated the support for that.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:23 am

Polling will be greatly affected by the 31st October and if there is no deal how Brexit had gone.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:32 am

Question about the NI assembly (Stormont):

Why is it still in a state of dissolution/suspension? If Sinn Fein refuse to attend why don't the other democratically elected politicians just go ahead without them?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:37 am

Mala591 wrote:Question about the NI assembly (Stormont):

Why is it still in a state of dissolution/suspension? If Sinn Fein refuse to attend why don't the other democratically elected politicians just go ahead without them?

Because it wouldn't representative of all of NI if it did.

Only works if its power sharing, but because the DUP and Sinn Fein represent the extremes, its not helping.

Personally, the cost of the DUP disastrous and expensive fuel plan (not properly investigated) and a bizarre (to non-NI residents) argument about the Irish language is not a reason to walk out but whatever floats your boat!

One thing for sure, the Brexit argument isn't helping sort this out, and if it goes to direct rule (which it has to if we have a No Deal with a non-functioning Stormont) then it just gets worse*.

*not 100% about that but I think that is correct

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:51 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are obsessed with me mate.

Its not healthy

Despite your weapons grade level of self-agrandizing statement "" I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time "

You've managed to be wrong twice in one sentence!

I'm not obsessed with you and I'm not your mate!

Not a good start to week for you.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:52 am

Spijed wrote:Robert Peston
@Peston
Labour has insisted all its MPs are in Commons tomorrow. I imagine that is because they will want to use Standing Order 24 to make sure that whenever the Commons is sitting between now and 31 October MPs have whatever powers they think they need to...

try to block a no-deal Brexit. But without removing @BorisJohnson as PM they cannot be confident they will get their Brexit delay. And right now they are a long way from having a credible and workable plan to remove him. Some three and a bit weeks of turbulent history start now.

This has failed by the way, the 21 expelled Tories agree with Boris and Cummings that it's undermining the chances of getting a deal.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:53 am

People have accepted there will be negatives only after the result. The campaign was fought on the pretense that
"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" - Former Brexit Secretary
So it is right we continue on even though what some people likely voted for has turned out to be untrue?

Damo wrote:If anyone wants to hold up their hand and say the heard that, believed it to be true and voted to leave on the back of it, then I'm quite happy to have a conversation with them about brexit being scrapped

What would you say to these people?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 54691.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many, many more like them. It's ok to change your mind.

Emma-Jane Manley, 39
"I changed my mind within the first 12 months. At the time they were saying: ‘Oh it's going to be the easiest deal in history, it's going to be no problem at all, and then we just started to see it unravel. We saw the Brexit ministers resign, they just kept toppling and it just became really clear that there was no such amazing deal."

James Mellor, 41
"Lots of people, politicians, assured me that even if we were to leave we would still stay in the single market and customs union and if that were to become an issue there would've been a separate vote on that. I foolishly believed that.
When I was voting Leave, I thought that Remain would win because that's where all the polls were going at the time. It was almost like a protest vote. Quite soon after the result, I changed my mind."

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:56 am

No legal reason why the NI parliament cannot meet so I say again, the other parties should go ahead and meet. I suspect that Sinn Fein would soon start to feel left out and would decide it would be in the interest of their constituents to attend.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:57 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Despite your weapons grade level of self-agrandizing statement "" I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time "

You've managed to be wrong twice in one sentence!

I'm not obsessed with you and I'm not your mate!

Not a good start to week for you.

I'm having a great week Ringo

Going into the international break with the clarets in the top half, one of my kids teams through to the 3rd round of the Lancashire Cup and another five days of top notch political history to observe!

Oh, and lots of work (boo!)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:59 am

Mala591 wrote:No legal reason why the NI parliament cannot meet so I say again, the other parties should go ahead and meet. I suspect that Sinn Fein would soon start to feel left out and would decide it would be in the interest of their constituents to attend.

No offense meant, but its not that simple in NI.

Stormont without the majority nationalist party in it breaks the GFA for a start (again, going from memory here but again, pretty sure that is correct)

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:06 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I can't now

I think the Tories have banked it all on a "No Deal" Brexit because that is what its support base wants.

I suspect (like the Labour position) that they have overestimated the support for that.

You are way off the mark re leave voters. Most want a deal but say that the would reluctantly accept no deal if the EU insist on the current backstop which hands control to the EU.

This will be the tory manifesto imo and will put the shits up Labour.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 am

summitclaret wrote:You are way of the mark re leave voters. Most want a deal but say that the would reluctantly accept no deal if the EU insist on the current backstop which hands control to the EU.

This will be the tory manifesto imo and will put the shits up Labour.

My only problem with that is that its shown time and time again that what that deal would involve wouldn't be universally accepted amongst leave voters.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:My only problem with that is that its shown time and time again that what that deal would involve wouldn't be universally accepted amongst leave voters.

Sorry but it's moved on - it's a free trade deal as that is what the Tory manifesto will say, not least because that's the only way forward that has a chance of them taking most BP votes.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:53 pm

CombatClaret wrote:What would you say to these people?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 54691.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many, many more like them. It's ok to change your mind.

Emma-Jane Manley, 39
"I changed my mind within the first 12 months. At the time they were saying: ‘Oh it's going to be the easiest deal in history, it's going to be no problem at all, and then we just started to see it unravel. We saw the Brexit ministers resign, they just kept toppling and it just became really clear that there was no such amazing deal."

James Mellor, 41
"Lots of people, politicians, assured me that even if we were to leave we would still stay in the single market and customs union and if that were to become an issue there would've been a separate vote on that. I foolishly believed that.
When I was voting Leave, I thought that Remain would win because that's where all the polls were going at the time. It was almost like a protest vote. Quite soon after the result, I changed my mind."

I just had a quick look at James Mellor's twitter profile (@JamesMellor22) and it turns out he has a German wife.
That leads me to think...
A, he's lying (this is difficult to confirm at a glance, as he doesn't seem to have tweeted anything pre referendum)
B, he is incredibly stupid.

I suspect the answer is A, but B is far more damning.

I've not had chance to look at Emma-Jane Manleys twitter but I suspect she has a similar story

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:56 pm

Damo wrote:I just had a quick look at James Mellor's twitter profile (@JamesMellor22) and it turns out he has a German wife.
That leads me to think...
A, he's lying (this is difficult to confirm at a glance, as he doesn't seem to have tweeted anything pre referendum)
B, he is incredibly stupid.

I suspect the answer is A, but B is far more damning.

I've not had chance to look at Emma-Jane Manleys twitter but I suspect she has a similar story

Are you saying people only voted Leave because they're stupid!

P.S. other people who managed to vote Leave while having a German wife include Nigel Farage.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:02 pm

For those of you who like this kind of stuff

Spreadsheet highlighting the issues affecting import/export at Dover in the event of a "No Deal"

https://www.doverport.co.uk/administrat ... t%20v5.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No mention of lorries just being waved through, to no ones surprise!

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:03 pm

martin_p wrote:Are you saying people only voted Leave because they're stupid!

P.S. other people who managed to vote Leave while having a German wife include Nigel Farage.

No pal.
People voted leave or remain for all sorts of different reasons. (I know you dont understand this)
This guy voting leave when he has a german wife would be incredibly stupid, if it was true, and not just some made up fairy tale

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:07 pm

Damo wrote:No pal.
People voted leave or remain for all sorts of different reasons. (I know you dont understand this)
This guy voting leave when he has a german wife would be incredibly stupid, if it was true, and not just some made up fairy tale

So Nigel Farage is incredibly stupid then?

I understand perfectly well that people voted for different reasons, you need to tell that to some of your Brexiteers pals. You know the ones that claim 'we all knew what we were voting for', etc and the ones that jump on a person who dare suggest that some of the people voting Leave have been conned and are a bit stupid (some of them post on here)

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:For those of you who like this kind of stuff

Spreadsheet highlighting the issues affecting import/export at Dover in the event of a "No Deal"

https://www.doverport.co.uk/administrat ... t%20v5.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No mention of lorries just being waved through, to no ones surprise!

"The default position for RoRo is that all accompanied freight is free to board and disembark the ferries or the Le Shuttle trains as they do
now, and only stop if they are required to by Border Force."

Isn't that an implication that lorries are waved through now, and will be waved through in the future? Are you saying that at present all lorries are required to stop by Border Force?

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:20 pm

Just for a change I thought I would do some scenario planning, tyring to put myself in BJ & Co's shoes given how parliament is and the latest deal they put tot he EU last week. I believe we all know where we are so just looking at the rest of the month and putting major pieces in place, feel free to have alternatives but I have tried to keep it somewhat realistic, and things like "BJ lies" just don't work.

1. This week sees both sides come out with negotiations, intense or otherwise
2. Next step/week EU says we can not accept this proposal
3. Quickly followed by Government explanations as to why they can not go back to the backstop and that May's deal has been rejected 3 times therefore wont be presented to parliament again.
4. Government writes officially to the EU and all members leaders separately stating that continued rationale and negotiations demonstrate a failure of both sides to be able to agree, therefore THIS Government will NOT be offering anything further and will be looking to leave the EU 31 Oct.
5. Day after 4 above BJ writes to the EU asking for an extension.
6. EU responds, feel free to write in your own answer here as I believe it is irrelevant.

Somewhere in the latter timeframe BJ asks for GE again and moves to campaign on the Leave Platform, We hope the EU will reconsider once you the people show support to leaving, however if they do not then we leave on No Deal since the EU will not let the UK leave with a FAIR deal.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:20 pm

martin_p wrote:So Nigel Farage is incredibly stupid then?

I understand perfectly well that people voted for different reasons, you need to tell that to some of your Brexiteers pals. You know the ones that claim 'we all knew what we were voting for', etc and the ones that jump on a person who dare suggest that some of the people voting Leave have been conned and are a bit stupid (some of them post on here)

No pal. You may need to read my comment again, as I was referring to the guy who pretended to have voted leave and changed to remain.

Also, I dont know all of the brexiteers.
Not even the ones on here. We dont have a brexiteer club that we all attend or anything

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:28 pm

Cherry case lost. However another case tomorrow on asking the Scottish Court to send the letter if BJ doesn't. That's a BJ win either way really.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:36 pm

Damo wrote:No pal. You may need to read my comment again, as I was referring to the guy who pretended to have voted leave and changed to remain.

Also, I dont know all of the brexiteers.
Not even the ones on here. We dont have a brexiteer club that we all attend or anything

It was your big discovery of having a German wife that lead you to say he was lying or being stupid. Now you're saying that relates to the changing his mind bit not the voting Leave bit. What's that got to do with having a German wife then?

So someone who has passed a Mensa test (but chose not to join) your logic is very poor.

I don't know the Brexiteers on here either but I find reading their views on Brexit helps understand what their views on Brexit are, it's not hard.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:37 pm

KateR wrote:Just for a change I thought I would do some scenario planning, tyring to put myself in BJ & Co's shoes given how parliament is and the latest deal they put tot he EU last week. I believe we all know where we are so just looking at the rest of the month and putting major pieces in place, feel free to have alternatives but I have tried to keep it somewhat realistic, and things like "BJ lies" just don't work.

1. This week sees both sides come out with negotiations, intense or otherwise
2. Next step/week EU says we can not accept this proposal
3. Quickly followed by Government explanations as to why they can not go back to the backstop and that May's deal has been rejected 3 times therefore wont be presented to parliament again.
4. Government writes officially to the EU and all members leaders separately stating that continued rationale and negotiations demonstrate a failure of both sides to be able to agree, therefore THIS Government will NOT be offering anything further and will be looking to leave the EU 31 Oct.
5. Day after 4 above BJ writes to the EU asking for an extension.
6. EU responds, feel free to write in your own answer here as I believe it is irrelevant.

Somewhere in the latter timeframe BJ asks for GE again and moves to campaign on the Leave Platform, We hope the EU will reconsider once you the people show support to leaving, however if they do not then we leave on No Deal since the EU will not let the UK leave with a FAIR deal.

Why is it incumbent on the EU to find a solution to the Ireland question that both satisfies their primary concern (protecting the single market) and preserve political harmony and the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement. It's nothing to do with the EU refusing to let us leave with a "FAIR" deal, it's a fundamental component of Brexit that was never planned for or even debated properly prior to the vote. Imagine being in Ireland, on either side of the border. Not only were the big advocates of Brexit never interested in the interests of Ireland in the first place, now they want to risk a hard border by simply leaving on a no deal without ever establishing a workable solution. So, after no.4 I'd probably have "5. Throw Ireland under the bus"

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:49 pm

martin_p wrote:It was your big discovery of having a German wife that lead you to say he was lying or being stupid. Now you're saying that relates to the changing his mind bit not the voting Leave bit. What's that got to do with having a German wife then?

So someone who has passed a Mensa test (but chose not to join) your logic is very poor.

I don't know the Brexiteers on here either but I find reading their views on Brexit helps understand what their views on Brexit are, it's not hard.

I didnt say that either did I pal? Read my comment again
Also, not sure why you are prattling on about mensa again. You are coming across as being quite grumpy today

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:52 pm

willsclarets wrote:Why is it incumbent on the EU to find a solution to the Ireland question that both satisfies their primary concern (protecting the single market) and preserve political harmony and the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement. It's nothing to do with the EU refusing to let us leave with a "FAIR" deal, it's a fundamental component of Brexit that was never planned for or even debated properly prior to the vote. Imagine being in Ireland, on either side of the border. Not only were the big advocates of Brexit never interested in the interests of Ireland in the first place, now they want to risk a hard border by simply leaving on a no deal without ever establishing a workable solution. So, after no.4 I'd probably have "5. Throw Ireland under the bus"

Seems you're clearly misunderstanding the idea of scenario planning, nobody said it is incumbent on anyone to do anything, I am using a cloudy crystal ball for things that have not happened yet, the idea is, can you see it happening or not, if not what are your thoughts for the rest of this month regarding this topic??? I have no idea what you "throw Ireland under a bus means"

I can see parliament trying to 1 stop BJ sending a letter of "we are no longer negotiating" and we are not having a GE. However everything is conjecture but if you think about it, that is a way BJ will satisfy his many critics regarding "we will leave on 31 Oct do or die" because even if we have the extension he will have put it out there that the big bad EU have done that with the nasty parliament lead by JC/JS.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:59 pm

Damo wrote:I didnt say that either did I pal? Read my comment again
Also, not sure why you are prattling on about mensa again. You are coming across as being quite grumpy today

You‘ve had to change what you’re saying that’s the problem. You saw having a German wife and voting leave as incompatible (he must be lying) until it was pointed out that the worlds most famous Brexiteer had a German wife too.

The Mensa thing gives me endless amusement that’s why

Couldn’t be less grumpy today thanks, it’s been a good news day so far!

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:02 pm

Damo wrote:I just had a quick look at James Mellor's twitter profile (@JamesMellor22) and it turns out he has a German wife.
That leads me to think...
A, he's lying (this is difficult to confirm at a glance, as he doesn't seem to have tweeted anything pre referendum)
B, he is incredibly stupid.

I suspect the answer is A, but B is far more damning.

I've not had chance to look at Emma-Jane Manleys twitter but I suspect she has a similar story

James Mellor said he voted leave as a protest vote, believing ultimately that remain would win. That sounds plausible to me.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:09 pm

AndrewJB wrote:James Mellor said he voted leave as a protest vote, believing ultimately that remain would win. That sounds plausible to me.

But he’s got a German wife!

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:09 pm

AndrewJB wrote:James Mellor said he voted leave as a protest vote, believing ultimately that remain would win. That sounds plausible to me.

So he didnt vote leave because of the following quote?
"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" - Former Brexit Secretary

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:12 pm

martin_p wrote:You‘ve had to change what you’re saying that’s the problem. You saw having a German wife and voting leave as incompatible (he must be lying) until it was pointed out that the worlds most famous Brexiteer had a German wife too.

The Mensa thing gives me endless amusement that’s why

Couldn’t be less grumpy today thanks, it’s been a good news day so far!

I haven't changed anything pal.
Read my comment.

Also, I know the mensa thing gives you endless amusement. I'm just wondering why you keep quoting me about it, when it's you that is struggling to comprehend something simple.

Also brexit news dictates your mood for the whole day. That explains quite a lot pal

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:16 pm

summitclaret wrote:Cherry case lost. However another case tomorrow on asking the Scottish Court to send the letter if BJ doesn't. That's a BJ win either way really.

It was always likely to be the case once the court had received the written submission that the government intends to follow the law.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:19 pm

Damo wrote:I haven't changed anything pal.
Read my comment.

Also, I know the mensa thing gives you endless amusement. I'm just wondering why you keep quoting me about it, when it's you that is struggling to comprehend something simple.

Also brexit news dictates your mood for the whole day. That explains quite a lot pal

Where did I mention Brexit news?

I struggling to comprehend what the relevance of your big 'he's got a German wife' reveal was. You don't seem to know yourself anymore.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:22 pm

martin_p wrote:It was always likely to be the case once the court had received the written submission that the government intends to follow the law.

Maybe so. I am loving the idea that someone appointed by a Scottish Court might actually send a letter requesting an extension and inviting to EU extend Brexit for as long as the EU want, including forever. If BJ had any doubts about winning a GE, he wouldn't after that.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:25 pm

Damo wrote:So he didnt vote leave because of the following quote?
"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" - Former Brexit Secretary

Let's look at his full quote:

"My dad was an ex-Conservative councillor so it was sort of inbuilt in terms of my political upbringing. I got involved in helping a business group in Yorkshire campaign to vote Leave. My name is on a letter from those two to three hundred businesses, sent to The Telegraph. To my shame, it's there.

"For me it was that I didn't want further political integration and that's the way things seemed to be going. I was quite happy with the status quo.

"Lots of people, politicians, assured me that even if we were to leave we would still stay in the single market and customs union and if that were to become an issue there would've been a separate vote on that. I foolishly believed that.

"When I was voting Leave, I thought that Remain would win because that's where all the polls were going at the time. It was almost like a protest vote.

"Quite soon after the result, I changed my mind. I feel stupid because my wife is German and I hadn't fully or at all realised the emotional impact on my wife and then my family situation going forward, I just hadn't really looked at those ramifications.

"As soon as it went that way (Leave), all those promises and untruths just started cracking apart and these people just disappeared and scuttled off.

"It's just been twisted to such a horrible extent that as soon as anyone says ‘17.4 million’, I'm screaming at the TV or newspaper or Twitter saying: “No, that figure is way wrong now!”

After reading that, does what he says make more sense?

This is also worth taking from the article:

Andy said there are three common threads RemainerNow members follow.

“The first is they saw money for the NHS, they weren't that engaged with politics and thought: ‘that sounds great I want that.’ Then when they saw that that's not happening, that's what change their mind,” he said.

“Then there’s the people who did it as a protest, they didn't like the government at the time, and they just did it because they thought ‘I'm going to give them a kick, often thinking that Leave wasn't going to win.’

“The third is people who listened to claims that we would keep our role in the single market, keep our relationship on an economic side but would just have a bit more political freedom, the Norway-type voters in this respect."

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:26 pm

dsr wrote: Isn't that an implication that lorries are waved through now, and will be waved through in the future? Are you saying that at present all lorries are required to stop by Border Force?

No

Certainly coming off the ships with correct paperwork, then what is it, 10% will be stopped (I think that is it at the moment) then it will be as normal as possible.

And with all the will in the world, when you said they would be "waved through", that isn't what you meant!

The backlogs/hold ups will be at the export end of both Calais and Dover I suspect, but hopefully we will never have to find out.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:26 pm

summitclaret wrote:Maybe so. I am loving the idea that someone appointed by a Scottish Court might actually send a letter requesting an extension and inviting to EU extend Brexit for as long as the EU want, including forever. If BJ had any doubts about winning a GE, he wouldn't after that.

If there is a substantial delay how is he going to stop.losing votes to Nigel Farage?