Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[KateR]

The Irish border can only be sorted if we accept that the customs border is in the Irish Sea. Even I know that is impossible for a Unionist and Conservative Party to accept, which is why May came up with the whole of the UK being in it.

Thats how to sort this, but its getting people to understand that and row back to it that is the problem.

You've seen Andys post a couple up. He calls her "remainer May" even though her deal delivered Brexit.

Its a completely mad way of looking at it, but that is why we are where we are.

I agree but Andy like myself pointed out it was rejected by Parliament 3 times, surely you are not proposing that only leave MP's voted rejection are you? If not then the remain are just as culpable are they not?

As I keep trying to say, we have been far apart in this negotiation, it needs to get closer and closer and that can only be done by sitting F2F and agreeing every point, dotting the i's and crossing the T's and ensuring what is there is legally binding on both sides.

[KateR]

The reductive nature of this argument, essentially based on a numbers game, is just perfect. You just want to leave, and you don't care how. And I dare say you don't know why.

It was not rejected by leave MP's only.

You are being argumentative just for the sake of it and throwing insults as you go, never a good argument to get people to listen to you, but then again your stance is more of "leavers should never post anything because they are stupid" Are you an MP by the way??

[willsclarets]

I completely agree that the Irish Border issue is the most complicated and the issue is around both sides of the argument wanting there own way, well unfortunately neither side will get it's own way. To me, and it's just me looking on, the EU have held firm and as it was in May's deal which we know 100% got blocked 3 times in parliament so no one should think it will be acceptable again.

BJ has not got what he asked for when he recently took office, since then he has modified, has presented something that was a line that would never be crossed in the last years. It's a change to help bring a deal, EU have 3 choices, if they just say no how does that help them of the UK? If they say yes, then you can logically assume we move to a deal and 2 years of negotiation, highly unlikely I agree. Finally they can say well ok we can accept this but not that and offer some constructive dialogue in try to get the what is not acceptable to something acceptable to both parties.

The EU stance whether you like it or not is irrelevant, but for me there stance is what is today stopping the deal everyone says they want and if it continues then it will result in a no deal. That bit is simple, well at least for me

But what you're missing, is the EUs responsibility to it's existing members which includes the ROI. When Johnson declared the backstop undemocratic basically to appease hard brexiters who rejected May's deal, he simultaneously put the EU in a very tricky situation. When you say the EUs stance is irrelevant, or that basically they'll be responsible for a no deal, it's just not true. The Irish feel passionately about the existence of a border, and the EU's singular biggest concern is the preservation of the single market. As Lancaster said further up, these evident problems were ignored time and time again by the government.

[willsclarets]

It was not rejected by leave MP's only.

You are being argumentative just for the sake of it and throwing insults as you go, never a good argument to get people to listen to you, but then again your stance is more of "leavers should never post anything because they are stupid" Are you an MP by the way??

So it's not reductive to simply count the number of times a deal was rejected in order to construct an argument that this one should be accepted?

[KateR]

So it's not reductive to simply count the number of times a deal was rejected in order to construct an argument that this one should be accepted?

You know most people understand the concept of "if you keep doing the same time and again don't expect any change"

When I said the EU stance is irrelevant I meant in terms that we have known it for a long time and therefore no point to discuss that further, what is relevant is that the EU, including the full 27, have to decide if it will negotiate or not negotiate, to date for quite a while it has been we will not negotiate. Obviously as with 99% of negotiations it goes on until the last minute so they are pretty much there this week with that.

Can you also try to understand the UK government has a duty to enact the vote of 2016 whether you agree with the vote outcome or not.

The EU will not in my opinion get what they want, so they have to change or they get no deal, in either case I will repeat, they will not get what they want. The remain people will not get what they want either in my opinion.

As Lancaster points out, maybe those same MP's are now think ohhh dear, what have we done. I think the ERG people are quite satisfied where we are today, probably the only ones.

[Devils_Advocate]

You know most people understand the concept of "if you keep doing the same time and again don't expect any change"

When I said the EU stance is irrelevant I meant in terms that we have known it for a long time and therefore no point to discuss that further, what is relevant is that the EU, including the full 27, have to decide if it will negotiate or not negotiate, to date for quite a while it has been we will not negotiate. Obviously as with 99% of negotiations it goes on until the last minute so they are pretty much there this week with that.

Can you also try to understand the UK government has a duty to enact the vote of 2016 whether you agree with the vote outcome or not.

The EU will not in my opinion get what they want, so they have to change or they get no deal, in either case I will repeat, they will not get what they want. The remain people will not get what they want either in my opinion.

As Lancaster points out, maybe those same MP's are now think ohhh dear, what have we done. I think the ERG people are quite satisfied where we are today, probably the only ones.

What if Labour were allowed to negotiate a Norway style deal that met the referendum criteria of leaving the EU and the EU agreed to it.

Would you expect the ERG to support it in Parliament on the basis it will be getting Brexit done and allow us to enact the vote?

You need to remember that this Tory brexit is not thr only viable brexit and the EU and a lot of UK MPs recognise this. The EU not agreeing to a deal that jepordises the GFA and compromises their protection of their customs union is not blocking brexit.

[summitclaret]

Its a UK government promise, made on a negotiated deal that took us out of the EU. Those types of things matter Andy, even if you don't want to think they do.

Its 100% the Brexit that possible and satisfied the referendum result.

The EU knew before agreement was reached with May that, thanks to Gina Miller, the HOC had to agree. That draft agreement was thrashed in Dec .

[Lancasterclaret]

You know most people understand the concept of "if you keep doing the same time and again don't expect any change"

When I said the EU stance is irrelevant I meant in terms that we have known it for a long time and therefore no point to discuss that further, what is relevant is that the EU, including the full 27, have to decide if it will negotiate or not negotiate, to date for quite a while it has been we will not negotiate. Obviously as with 99% of negotiations it goes on until the last minute so they are pretty much there this week with that.

Can you also try to understand the UK government has a duty to enact the vote of 2016 whether you agree with the vote outcome or not.

The EU will not in my opinion get what they want, so they have to change or they get no deal, in either case I will repeat, they will not get what they want. The remain people will not get what they want either in my opinion.

As Lancaster points out, maybe those same MP's are now think ohhh dear, what have we done. I think the ERG people are quite satisfied where we are today, probably the only ones.

I have no idea why they are supported by those who want a deal.

A lot of people on here say they want a deal, but will talk up stuff that is completely unrealistic and then blame the EU when they confirm it isn't realistic.

To me, if you can make that distinction and still ignore the reality, then we are in a seriously bad place.

The talk with DSR is a case in point. I agree with him 100% on everything Burnley related, he's sound and clear in his arguments when it comes to football.

But he's an accountant. I'm a ex-transport manager who worked EU-UK road haulage and sea freight.

He tells me I'm wrong on stuff I literally did for fifteen years.

I cannot get my head around that level of belief in Brexit ahead of people pointing out reality.

(just using you as an example DSR, i could have used others as well)

[summitclaret]

The Irish border can only be sorted if we accept that the customs border is in the Irish Sea. Even I know that is impossible for a Unionist and Conservative Party to accept, which is why May came up with the whole of the UK being in it.

Thats how to sort this, but its getting people to understand that and row back to it that is the problem.

You've seen Andys post a couple up. He calls her "remainer May" even though her deal delivered Brexit.

Its a completely mad way of looking at it, but that is why we are where we are.

It didn't deliver the brexit in the tory manifesto and that's why the ERG fought it.

[JohnMcGreal]

I agree but Andy like myself pointed out it was rejected by Parliament 3 times, surely you are not proposing that only leave MP's voted rejection are you? If not then the remain are just as culpable are they not?

As I keep trying to say, we have been far apart in this negotiation, it needs to get closer and closer and that can only be done by sitting F2F and agreeing every point, dotting the i's and crossing the T's and ensuring what is there is legally binding on both sides.

I think a lot more MPs would vote for a deal if they're presented with one which fulfills the claims made by the Leave campaigns in 2016. One which provides all the benefits of membership with none of the costs.

That is quite clearly never going to materialise, so if the government keeps presenting them with a proposal that is worse than our current membership, it will be rejected by Parliament, and rightly so.

[Lancasterclaret]

It didn't deliver the brexit in the tory manifesto and that's why the ERG fought it.

After two years, it did.

Again, the backstop is only a problem if the tech that the ERG says exist actually doesn't exist.

Now we are back to the trust question.

Why on earth should the EU trust the ERG and the PM based on their record?

[KateR]

What if Labour were allowed to negotiate a Norway style deal that met the referendum criteria of leaving the EU and the EU agreed to it.

Would you expect the ERG to support it in Parliament on the basis it will be getting Brexit done and allow us to enact the vote?

You need to remember that this Tory brexit is not thr only viable brexit and the EU and a lot of UK MPs recognise this. The EU not agreeing to a deal that jepordises the GFA and compromises their protection of their customs union is not blocking brexit.

There are so many what if scenarios to play with, if you are asking me personally about labour negotiating and a Norway deal, I would first answer that there have to be numerous types of deals from Remain as is deal to no deal. I personally can not tell you what the best deal is that we could agree to with the EU and of course that they agree, but I would be happy if a deal was agreed and we move tot he negotiation side of things, Norway style or otherwise.

I would personally be very unhappy with labour doing the negotiation as I simply have no confidence in them, similar to how I felt about May negotiating, the perverse side of me however says I would love to see JC negotiating this and that Scotland get there independence, just so I can see and be the one complaining continually. However in seriousness no I do not want labour as a government in it's present state, that would be far worse than remaining for me.

In regard to ERG accepting it probably 60/40 they would not

[summitclaret]

After two years, it did.

Again, the backstop is only a problem if the tech that the ERG says exist actually doesn't exist.

Now we are back to the trust question.

Why on earth should the EU trust the ERG and the PM based on their record?

Because if BJ gets a majority at the GE we are leaving come what May. That means a hard border if no deal can be agreed. A hard border if the EU has to devise it will suddenly not be a hard border and will be along the lines that BJ has proposed. The EU have a few days to decide whether to roll the dice and hope for revoke/a BRINO brexit or deal with BJ now and get a decent compromise.

The government is now in a stronger position than it should be with no majority because BJ rightly judges that only his government is trying to get Brexit done WITH A DEAL.

[Lancasterclaret]

There are so many what if scenarios to play with, if you are asking me personally about labour negotiating and a Norway deal, I would first answer that there have to be numerous types of deals from Remain as is deal to no deal. I personally can not tell you what the best deal is that we could agree to with the EU and of course that they agree, but I would be happy if a deal was agreed and we move tot he negotiation side of things, Norway style or otherwise.

I would personally be very unhappy with labour doing the negotiation as I simply have no confidence in them, similar to how I felt about May negotiating, the perverse side of me however says I would love to see JC negotiating this and that Scotland get there independence, just so I can see and be the one complaining continually. However in seriousness no I do not want labour as a government in it's present state, that would be far worse than remaining for me.

In regard to ERG accepting it probably 60/40 they would not

Its 100/0 they wouldn't.

the only Brexit they will back is one that dumps us right in the **** (sadly)

No Deal Brexit was beaten in 2017 in a GE, in numerous indicative votes and we even have a law against it, but they still refuse to give up on their dream Brexit.

They have never compromised on this once. Not once.

This is their big chance to blow the UK back to what they want, and they will never get another chance like this.

[Lancasterclaret]

Because if BJ gets a majority at the GE we are leaving come what May. That means a hard border if no deal can be agreed. A hard border if the EU has to devise it will suddenly not be a hard border and will be along the lines that BJ has proposed. The EU have a few days to decide whether to roll the dice and hope for revoke/a BRINO brexit or deal with BJ now and get a decent compromise.

The government is now in a stronger position than it should be with no majority because BJ rightly judges that only his government is trying to get Brexit done WITH A DEAL.

Its in a position its put itself in summit.

Its only chance is a deal, but its not got the numbers in its own ranks to offer a deal that might be acceptable to the EU.

So its gambling the future of the country on what is left of the unity of the Conservative Party (again).

That alone makes it completely unfit for government

[KateR]

I have no idea why they are supported by those who want a deal.

A lot of people on here say they want a deal, but will talk up stuff that is completely unrealistic and then blame the EU when they confirm it isn't realistic.

To me, if you can make that distinction and still ignore the reality, then we are in a seriously bad place.

The talk with DSR is a case in point. I agree with him 100% on everything Burnley related, he's sound and clear in his arguments when it comes to football.

But he's an accountant. I'm a ex-transport manager who worked EU-UK road haulage and sea freight.

He tells me I'm wrong on stuff I literally did for fifteen years.

I cannot get my head around that level of belief in Brexit ahead of people pointing out reality.

(just using you as an example DSR, i could have used others as well)

Unfortunately there are rabid leave & remain who make many comments I do not agree with, have stopped trying to talk sense to them and just ignore many of there comments, yet sometimes I can't help myself

[summitclaret]

Its 100/0 they wouldn't.

the only Brexit they will back is one that dumps us right in the **** (sadly)

No Deal Brexit was beaten in 2017 in a GE, in numerous indicative votes and we even have a law against it, but they still refuse to give up on their dream Brexit.

They have never compromised on this once. Not once.

This is their big chance to blow the UK back to what they want, and they will never get another chance like this.

Think you need to think about that. The vast majority of the ERG backed May's 3rd vote. About 27 did not plus about 7 tory manifesto deniers. So that's about 90% tory support. Labour was about 95% against May's deal. Bet they wish that they had voted for it now.

[Lancasterclaret]

Unfortunately there are rabid leave & remain who make many comments I do not agree with, have stopped trying to talk sense to them and just ignore many of there comments, yet sometimes I can't help myself

What the drive for the perfect Brexit as backed by the ERG has done is harden the position on the remain side,

In 2016, the Lib Dems had less that 10% support and about five MPs.

Now they are in 2nd place in most polls, with a "revoke Article 50" stance.

The list of things that should have been done in the aftermath of the vote in 2016 is pretty exhaustive, but what it shouldn't have is an actual use of Article 50 until we had decided what Brexit to have.

Well, we are where we are.

[FactualFrank]

Good luck to anybody considering going through every page.

[Devils_Advocate]

One of the few redeeming features of this thread is that its FactualFrankFree. Please don't spoil it

[summitclaret]

Its in a position its put itself in summit.

Its only chance is a deal, but its not got the numbers in its own ranks to offer a deal that might be acceptable to the EU.

So its gambling the future of the country on what is left of the unity of the Conservative Party (again).

That alone makes it completely unfit for government

Well the strategy of alternative government is a joke. It's we will let the people decide in a 2nd referundum but we can't say whether we want to leave or not before the GE because we want to have it both ways ( even though we really don't want to leave).

[martin_p]

I explained that in previous posts pal. It wasnt in layman's terms, so ill have another go for you...

So, combatclaret asked me (you were part of this conversation, so I shouldn't need to repeat it, but I will);

So I said;
"If anyone wants to hold up their hand and say the heard that, believed it to be true and voted to leave on the back of it, then I'm quite happy to have a conversation with them about brexit being scrapped"

Combat then came back with 2 examples of people who supposedly voted Leave, then changed their mind. Given that he quoted me, I assumed it was because they were lead to believe that "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside"
I then had a really quick look at one of the people he quoted, and discovered that his wife was German.
Because of that (I do understand other brexiteers may have german wives, but i try to take each persons descision to vote the way they did on merit, and concluded that Farage had bigger factors than his wife's passport to consider when applying his vote) i concluded that the guy in question (James Mellor, not Nigel Farage) must have been lying or incredibly stupid. I did say I thought he was lying, but it turns out intact, that he was incredibly stupid for voting leave. Not just, as it turns out because his wife was an EU citizen, but also because it was a protest vote.

Hope that clears that up pal

It does. As I suspected you’ve based your initial judgement entirely on the nationality of his wife. And you have the gall to call him stupid!

[Lancasterclaret]

Well the strategy of alternative government is a joke. It's we will let the people decide in a 2nd referundum but we can't say whether we want to leave or not before the GE because we want to have it both ways ( even though we really don't want to leave).

There are no good solutions at the moment, that is the problem

[martin_p]

Looks like Johnson has been economical with the truth today about knowing what the EU thinks of his proposal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1570466855

[AndyClaret]

After two years, it did.

Again, the backstop is only a problem if the tech that the ERG says exist actually doesn't exist.

Now we are back to the trust question.

Why on earth should the EU trust the ERG and the PM based on their record?

The thing is, the tech could exist, but without the EU's agreement we can't leave the backstop.

[summitclaret]

There are no good solutions at the moment, that is the problem

There will be once the EU accept that we are leaving. That can only be after GE. Personally I am prepared to risk no Brexit to get a free trade deal. It's not worth giving up what we already have for anything less than us controlling our own laws, borders, money and trade.

[Damo]

It does. As I suspected you’ve based your initial judgement entirely on the nationality of his wife. And you have the gall to call him stupid!

Ok pal. Dont say I didnt try

[Spijed]

There will be once the EU accept that we are leaving. That can only be after GE. Personally I am prepared to risk no Brexit to get a free trade deal. It's not worth giving up what we already have for anything less than us controlling our own laws, borders, money and trade.

But we do control our laws!

[summitclaret]

But we do control our laws!

Some yes. I mean all.

[Mala591]

I think the EU are 'subconsciously' admitting that the backstop can never be replaced because a technological solution cannot (and will not) deliver the same reassurances (CU and SM).

Only solutions they will accept are imo

CU and SM border down the Irish Sea
OR
UK as a whole stay in the CU and closely align to the SM (partial Brexit *copyright)

Not looking good for a deal is it ?

Edit * copyright the phrase 'partial Brexit'

[martin_p]

Ok pal. Dont say I didnt try

You didn’t try.

[Jakubclaret]

I have no idea why they are supported by those who want a deal.

A lot of people on here say they want a deal, but will talk up stuff that is completely unrealistic and then blame the EU when they confirm it isn't realistic.

To me, if you can make that distinction and still ignore the reality, then we are in a seriously bad place.

The talk with DSR is a case in point. I agree with him 100% on everything Burnley related, he's sound and clear in his arguments when it comes to football.

But he's an accountant. I'm a ex-transport manager who worked EU-UK road haulage and sea freight.

He tells me I'm wrong on stuff I literally did for fifteen years.

I cannot get my head around that level of belief in Brexit ahead of people pointing out reality.

(just using you as an example DSR, i could have used others as well)

Have some faith it’ll all sort itself out, progress is being made albeit slowly due to the EU in my view remaining intransigent a stance that hasn’t changed from day 1, well aware the referendum was a close call & taking advantage of the divisions hoping we decide to stay or leave with a bum deal, you’d benefit immensely with becoming a glass half full type of person as opposed to a glass half empty type of person, in my view I’d just simple leave on WTO terms & call their bluff we’d all manage perfectly fine I think & simply adapt to the situation in hand.

[Quickenthetempo]

Have the EU made plans on how they will replace the cash from us yet?
They did some budgeting recently didn't they?

Will all the smaller nations have to chip in a million a week or just the big players taking more on?

Or are they just hoping to get enough money off us to see them right for a few years?

[tiger76]

I think the EU are 'subconsciously' admitting that the backstop can never be replaced because a technological solution cannot (and will not) deliver the same reassurances (CU and SM).

Only solutions they will accept are imo

CU and SM border down the Irish Sea
OR
UK as a whole stay in the CU and closely align to the SM (partial Brexit *copyright)

Not looking good for a deal is it ?

Edit * copyright the phrase 'partial Brexit'

As i understand it the 2nd option CU membership and close SM alignment is Labour's current position,and this could well command a majority in the HOC,however until the opposition parties can bring themselves to bite the bullet and install JC as an interim PM,Labour's proposals won't gain any traction or not enough traction anyway,many people who voted leave will not consider that as brexit,but this is pretty close to what Nigel Farage amongst others suggested prior to the vote,as i've stated previously if NI is given any form of special status,then Ian Blackford and Nicola Sturgeon will demand Scotland is also treated as a special case,and whether people agree with them or not they can simply point out that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

In answer to your nope it's not looking good for a deal,and already the blame game appears to have begun.

IF the UK crashes out without a deal (WA) at the end of this month heaven only knows what will follow,it certainly won't simply be a case of just turning up in Brussels and getting a FTA,the problems that exist now,UK'S financial commitments to existing budgets,i.e divorce bill will still exist,yes i suppose the UK could refuse to honour our current obligations and withhold the cash,but if that happened the EU would simply refuse to negotiate a trade deal until such time as the UK honoured our debts,and other countries which might consider doing business with the UK wouldn't be overly impressed if their potential partner was reneging on it's existing commitments.

And arguably the bigger concern which bizarrely is treated with disdain on this site is the GFA,you can't just disregard legally binding international treaties because they're inconvenient,remember the 2016 referendum was only advisory and in theory isn't legally binding on any government.

[summitclaret]

Have the EU made plans on how they will replace the cash from us yet?
They did some budgeting recently didn't they?

Will all the smaller nations have to chip in a million a week or just the big players taking more on?

Or are they just hoping to get enough money off us to see them right for a few years?

That was our main card and May threw it away.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Boris has clearly decided to become diplomatic and attract the hippie left vote......

....tonight at an event he said his team didn’t want him to come “because uncooperative crusties lettered the road.”. He then went on to describe them as “importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters" living in "heaving hemp-smelling bivouacs.

He certainly has a talent for knowing what the majority of people of thinking, and yep, that will have locked down a bit more of taxi driver and white man man vote. Trumpesque.....

[TheFamilyCat]

Have some faith it’ll all sort itself out, progress is being made albeit slowly due to the EU in my view remaining intransigent a stance that hasn’t changed from day 1, well aware the referendum was a close call & taking advantage of the divisions hoping we decide to stay or leave with a bum deal, you’d benefit immensely with becoming a glass half full type of person as opposed to a glass half empty type of person, in my view I’d just simple leave on WTO terms & call their bluff we’d all manage perfectly fine I think & simply adapt to the situation in hand.

Could you edit that and add some punctuation? Might make it possible to understand what you're on about.

[Devils_Advocate]

Could you edit that and add some punctuation? Might make it possible to understand what you're on about.

And they say us remoaners aren't optimistic

[Spijed]

He certainly has a talent for knowing what the majority of people of thinking, and yep, that will have locked down a bit more of taxi driver and white man man vote. Trumpesque.....

Probably explains why he refused to shake the hands of two black guys at the Tory Conference.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6303834" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AndrewJB]

I explained that in previous posts pal. It wasnt in layman's terms, so ill have another go for you...

So, combatclaret asked me (you were part of this conversation, so I shouldn't need to repeat it, but I will);

So I said;
"If anyone wants to hold up their hand and say the heard that, believed it to be true and voted to leave on the back of it, then I'm quite happy to have a conversation with them about brexit being scrapped"

Combat then came back with 2 examples of people who supposedly voted Leave, then changed their mind. Given that he quoted me, I assumed it was because they were lead to believe that "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside"
I then had a really quick look at one of the people he quoted, and discovered that his wife was German.
Because of that (I do understand other brexiteers may have german wives, but i try to take each persons descision to vote the way they did on merit, and concluded that Farage had bigger factors than his wife's passport to consider when applying his vote) i concluded that the guy in question (James Mellor, not Nigel Farage) must have been lying or incredibly stupid. I did say I thought he was lying, but it turns out intact, that he was incredibly stupid for voting leave. Not just, as it turns out because his wife was an EU citizen, but also because it was a protest vote.

Hope that clears that up pal

Those people all explained their reasons for having voted leave in the linked article. I don’t see how they could be lying or stupid, as their reasons are reasonable enough.

[Jakubclaret]

Could you edit that and add some punctuation? Might make it possible to understand what you're on about.

I do humbly apologise profusely for the lack of coherent grammar, not my strongest suit, but the essence of the post stands.

[TheFamilyCat]

I do humbly apologise profusely for the lack of coherent grammar, not my strongest suit, but the essence of the post stands.

The only essence I got from your post was a hint of gibberish.

[AndrewJB]

Boris has clearly decided to become diplomatic and attract the hippie left vote......

....tonight at an event he said his team didn’t want him to come “because uncooperative crusties lettered the road.”. He then went on to describe them as “importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters" living in "heaving hemp-smelling bivouacs.

He certainly has a talent for knowing what the majority of people of thinking, and yep, that will have locked down a bit more of taxi driver and white man man vote. Trumpesque.....

Doesn’t he already have their vote? Or is he just trying to ensure that young people with piercings get registered to vote against him? We are talking about a man who purged his party of so many MPs he lost any ability to command a majority - like a lame man angrily tossing his splinter causing crutches off a cliff onto the rocks of despair below, and wondering why he cannot rise and walk through grit and determination alone.

[Jakubclaret]

The only essence I got from your post was a hint of gibberish.

Must be a avid remainer as a wild guess, who I strongly suspect suffered 24hr amnesia on the 23rd June 2016, just a hunch

[willsclarets]

Must be a avid remainer as a wild guess, who I strongly suspect suffered 24hr amnesia on the 23rd June 2016, just a hunch

Have you got some sort of amnesia from that date to the present day? It seems most brexiters have is all.

[tiger76]

Heidi Allen finally joins the Lib Dems https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49967901TBH i'm surprised it's taken her so long,unlike some of the other defectors she will contest her present seat,large Con majority in 2017,but the Lib Dems are strong at local level and crucially it's a heavy remain voting area.

[willsclarets]

Have some faith it’ll all sort itself out, progress is being made albeit slowly due to the EU in my view remaining intransigent a stance that hasn’t changed from day 1, well aware the referendum was a close call & taking advantage of the divisions hoping we decide to stay or leave with a bum deal, you’d benefit immensely with becoming a glass half full type of person as opposed to a glass half empty type of person, in my view I’d just simple leave on WTO terms & call their bluff we’d all manage perfectly fine I think & simply adapt to the situation in hand.

But why has it come to this? The closer we get to leaving with a no deal, the less clarity those who were avid leavers have on why it's a good thing we voted to leave. It's now apparently a case of thinking positively. Where are all those persuasive arguments about immigration, making our own laws and amazing trade deals with Europe and the rest of the world. The "situation at hand" is our own making, and it's going to do us no good whatsoever for a million reasons.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Probably explains why he refused to shake the hands of two black guys at the Tory Conference.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6303834" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, he shook hands with me on the way out 15 minutes later, and the guy next to me (a top man actually) was from Pakistan, and he shook hands with him too. So that implies to me the article is total boloks.

(got to say, it was a real bit of clever positioning in the exit route on our part, Boris had more security around him than a US President, they clearly didn’t want him near anybody)

[Jakubclaret]

Have you got some sort of amnesia from that date to the present day? It seems most brexiters have is all.

Brexiteers, you don’t want family cat pulling you up on your spelling

[willsclarets]

Putting that aside, why are you still so confident leaving is the best thing for the UK, besides just having a positive attitude.