Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[willsclarets]

What's really interesting, is that besides the argument that we voted to leave in 2016, the actual arguments as to why we should leave have dissipated. It's almost as though the attempt to save face is more important than the future of the UK.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Oh so, you don't remember pretending to be in it, or are you in it, but don't remember telling everyone that you weren't in it?

Neither is a good look CM

Is this another one of those things people have made up about me but keep getting repeated?

Like i fund Tommy Robinson (i can barely afford my monthly rent let alone pay a millionaire) and/or that I am a white supremacist?

I mean feel free to add it onto the pile.

I'm also top boy in the FLA, why not.

[Jakubclaret]

Putting that aside, why are you still so confident leaving is the best thing for the UK, besides just having a positive attitude.

The steadfast belief that something wasn’t working before hence the need to ask the electorate & the hope that leaving will improve, admittedly it’s a gamble & time will be the bearer. You can always rejoin it’s not as if it’s permanent if things go s**tshaped. Night.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Doesn’t he already have their vote? Or is he just trying to ensure that young people with piercings get registered to vote against him? We are talking about a man who purged his party of so many MPs he lost any ability to command a majority - like a lame man angrily tossing his splinter causing crutches off a cliff onto the rocks of despair below, and wondering why he cannot rise and walk through grit and determination alone.

Well, of the 21 MPs Robert Peston thinks 6 are anti-Boris and 15 are desperate to come back, hence why Corbyn didn’t get a majority for his order paper seizure today.

It is certainly a different strategy......Boris is clearly doubling down on his core vote to shoot the Farage fox so to speak. Who knows if it will work. I guess it will prove which way the country is leaning, not just on Brexit but on hyper-liberalism. For more evidence of that approach, see my imminent post......

[willsclarets]

The steadfast belief that something wasn’t working before hence the need to ask the electorate & the hope that leaving will improve, admittedly it’s a gamble & time will be the bearer. You can always rejoin it’s not as if it’s permanent if things go s**tshaped. Night.

Nope you're going to have to be more specific than that. Why, in the biggest political decision of your lifetime did you vote to leave? It should be an easy question no? The vague hope "things will be better" isn't good enough. What is it you want to be better? What possible potential with brexit will deliver it?

[AndrewJB]

Putting that aside, why are you still so confident leaving is the best thing for the UK, besides just having a positive attitude.

Tumbleweed...

[CrosspoolClarets]

I strongly suggest this from Peston is a must read - it links to a Spectator article with a big message from a No 10 source but I think they allow a few free articles a month to view.

https://twitter.com/peston/status/11813 ... 45734?s=21

This “number 10 source” is clearly an unofficial official communication. It sounds like Cummings has fed this to the Spectator (speculation by me).

The quote passage is absolute dynamite.

It is essentially saying (my interpretation) that we are banking on our huge power in the world (not least with the USA as backup) to strong arm smaller EU countries.

It isn’t even a veiled threat - it is a clear threat. Threats of retribution, including by withdrawing some security and defence cooperation, to countries that back Brexit delay against the clear expressed will of the UK government. States that the UK will treat it as hostile interference by foreign powers and will respond accordingly.

Also very clear Ireland will be the main target of this message, but also Eastern Europe.

Ballsy stuff. Highly impressive - if it works. Clearly a risk it won’t.

[willsclarets]

Tumbleweed...

See above answer by Jakub, and the vague feeling something wasn't right. I encounter this all the time, and then I'm lambasted simply because I challenge the legitimacy of that claim in the context of brexit. All the arguments put forward by the brexit campaign have been reduced to dust, all that's left is the vote itself which was based on hogwash.

[summitclaret]

How this from the government of national acrimony in waiting? Absolute shambles.

http://news.sky.com/story/blame-game-as ... n-11830216" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

I strongly suggest this from Peston is a must read - it links to a Spectator article with a big message from a No 10 source but I think they allow a few free articles a month to view.

https://twitter.com/peston/status/11813 ... 45734?s=21

This “number 10 source” is clearly an unofficial official communication. It sounds like Cummings has fed this to the Spectator (speculation by me).

The quote passage is absolute dynamite.

It is essentially saying (my interpretation) that we are banking on our huge power in the world (not least with the USA as backup) to strong arm smaller EU countries.

It isn’t even a veiled threat - it is a clear threat. Threats of retribution, including by withdrawing some security and defence cooperation, to countries that back Brexit delay against the clear expressed will of the UK government. States that the UK will treat it as hostile interference by foreign powers and will respond accordingly.

Also very clear Ireland will be the main target of this message, but also Eastern Europe.

Ballsy stuff. Highly impressive - if it works. Clearly a risk it won’t.

Its the sort of thing traitors would do quite frankly.

We don't survive as a country if we do this to allies, and quite frankly we deserve all we get if we go down this road

If you lose doing this, then next time you flag waving lunatics go on about loyalty and love of country, I'll laugh in your face.

[summitclaret]

Its the sort of thing traitors would do quite frankly.

We don't survive as a country if we do this to allies, and quite frankly we deserve all we get if we go down this road

If you lose doing this, then next time you flag waving lunatics go on about loyalty and love of country, I'll laugh in your face.

Why do people fall for this type of gameplaying? It's clearly not serious and aims to get the remain side jumping up and down. Meanwhile the real exorset will come in due course.

[willsclarets]

"highly impressive" - read your history books from an Irish perspective and see how impressive you think the actions of UK government have been since the 1600s

[willsclarets]

Why do people fall for this type of gameplaying? It's clearly not serious and aims to get the remain side jumping up and down. Meanwhile the real exorset will come in due course.

This is just a game of win or lose to you isn't it? This isn't a game.

[Jakubclaret]

Nope you're going to have to be more specific than that. Why, in the biggest political decision of your lifetime did you vote to leave? It should be an easy question no? The vague hope "things will be better" isn't good enough. What is it you want to be better? What possible potential with brexit will deliver it?

I voted leave primarily as plenty others did because of immigration & the exploitation involved & the indigenous workers facing unemployment & bleak future prospects employment wise, I’ve explained this before repetitively to certain posters & lapsed posting as a consequence. I’ve always felt in terms of recruiting overseas we need to be very selective based on skills & what people can contribute rather than take, not a popular opinion as you put yourself on offer for xenophobia accusations.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Its the sort of thing traitors would do quite frankly.

We don't survive as a country if we do this to allies, and quite frankly we deserve all we get if we go down this road

If you lose doing this, then next time you flag waving lunatics go on about loyalty and love of country, I'll laugh in your face.

I had a feeling you would like this approach Lancs

I think the general thrust is that allies are not real allies if they interfere in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country over the head of their elected Government.

Thanks to the Benn Act and the democracy deniers in Parliament, the time for supplication is now over. Let us not forget Tusk offered us a free trade deal with close partnership on all the science and security stuff.

Then he withdrew the offer.

He would be wise to remember the power is always with the country with the money in their pocket, I’ve said this from the start, it’s an illusion to think otherwise.

[summitclaret]

This is just a game of win or lose to you isn't it? This isn't a game.

No its serious stuff, but I don't get why people don't see that Cummings is playing with the remainer HOC. We need a deal and every mp should be assisting in getting one. I can excuse the SNP because they don't see themselves as British.

[CrosspoolClarets]

"highly impressive" - read your history books from an Irish perspective and see how impressive you think the actions of UK government have been since the 1600s

This is geopolitics. Adults only.

Varadkar is like the little kid in the playground trying to push around the big kid in the year because he thinks all the others have his back.

He is the one who needs to read his history books - I am half Irish, I know the history books inside out, and a conciliatory approach to the UK was a must. He went the opposite route. Now he will see if the other kids turn away when that big kid comes out swinging.

This isn’t a game - he must have hugely annoyed those in Number 10, not least by constantly changing the goalposts and backtracking on promises. If the Irish have any sense they would get rid of him quick.

[CrosspoolClarets]

No its serious stuff, but I don't get why people don't see that Cummings is playing with the remainer HOC. We need a deal and every mp should be assisting in getting one. I can excuse the SNP because they don't see themselves as British.

I agree (though he is also targeting the EU as a contingency plan).

Don’t rule out a motion early next week to repeal the Benn Act. With our proposal on the table many rebel MPs may decide to return to the fold and give the EU a clear choice.

[martin_p]

I think the general thrust is that allies are not real allies if they interfere in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country over the head of their elected Parliament.

The elected parliament that wants an extension in the event of no deal? If you don’t want these allies to ‘interfere’ them surely they accept the delay our sovereign parliament requests.

[martin_p]

I agree (though he is also targeting the EU as a contingency plan).

Don’t rule out a motion early next week to repeal the Benn Act. With our proposal on the table many rebel MPs may decide to return to the fold and give the EU a clear choice.

It’s the Queens Speech on Monday and the debate and vote following that. Don’t think there’ll be time before the EU Summit on 17th. Then it’s Johnson’s letter sending day on 19th.

[If it be your will]

I voted leave primarily as plenty others did because of immigration & the exploitation involved & the indigenous workers facing unemployment & bleak future prospects employment wise, I’ve explained this before repetitively to certain posters & lapsed posting as a consequence. I’ve always felt in terms of recruiting overseas we need to be very selective based on skills & what people can contribute rather than take, not a popular opinion as you put yourself on offer for xenophobia accusations.

Don't get dragged into it! You don't have to justify your position one bit in 2019. That debate was for 2016 and leave won the vote. Had remain won, do you think remainers would feel obliged to keep justifying their reasons for 3 straight years? Do you think they'd even bother replying to you if you demanded why they voted remain 3 years earlier?

Ignore them. Concentrate on how we go about leaving, and what can be done to mitigate the risks of doing so.

[If it be your will]

I strongly suggest this from Peston is a must read - it links to a Spectator article with a big message from a No 10 source but I think they allow a few free articles a month to view.

https://twitter.com/peston/status/11813 ... 45734?s=21

This “number 10 source” is clearly an unofficial official communication. It sounds like Cummings has fed this to the Spectator (speculation by me).

The quote passage is absolute dynamite.

It is essentially saying (my interpretation) that we are banking on our huge power in the world (not least with the USA as backup) to strong arm smaller EU countries.

It isn’t even a veiled threat - it is a clear threat. Threats of retribution, including by withdrawing some security and defence cooperation, to countries that back Brexit delay against the clear expressed will of the UK government. States that the UK will treat it as hostile interference by foreign powers and will respond accordingly.

Also very clear Ireland will be the main target of this message, but also Eastern Europe.

Ballsy stuff. Highly impressive - if it works. Clearly a risk it won’t.

If this is for real (and I must say I'm somewhat suspicious of that), I can't see it working. There might be a country or two that would rather not be our enemy, but they would want even less to be an enemy of the EU. And that's what they'd become if they vetoed an extension.

I'm just looking at the EU map, and I can only think of 2 plausible possibilities (because they're already on the wrong side of the EU): Poland and Hungary. But can you really imagine either of these turning on the EU for our sake? Possibly, but not likely. I'd be amazed indeed if Ireland were the ones to veto it.

Interesting article, though!

[If it be your will]

I agree (though he is also targeting the EU as a contingency plan).

Don’t rule out a motion early next week to repeal the Benn Act. With our proposal on the table many rebel MPs may decide to return to the fold and give the EU a clear choice.

It's vaguely possible this might happen, though.

[aggi]

If this is for real (and I must say I'm somewhat suspicious of that), I can't see it working. There might be a country or two that would rather not be our enemy, but they would want even less to be an enemy of the EU. And that's what they'd become if they vetoed an extension.

I'm just looking at the EU map, and I can only think of 2 plausible possibilities (because they're already on the wrong side of the EU): Poland and Hungary. But can you really imagine either of these turning on the EU for our sake? Possibly, but not likely. I'd be amazed indeed if Ireland were the ones to veto it.

Interesting article, though!

Rees Mogg has already been buttering Hungary up with a bit of Soros bashing. It may have just been coincidence that he brought him up whilst reportedly seeking help from Hungary and some of their politicians were over here but I'm a bit cynical.

[CombatClaret]

Don't get dragged into it! You don't have to justify your position one bit...

Ignore them. Concentrate on how we go about leaving, and what can be done to mitigate the risks of doing so.

Whatever you do don't ask why we're still leaving, or people might see the Emperor has no clothes!

[If it be your will]

Whatever you do don't ask why we're still leaving, or people might see the Emperor has no clothes!

Perhaps you're right, but it makes little difference either way, no-one is changing their mind anymore. Both sides are completely dug in. If you really want to remain, you'd be better served trying to work out ways to make it happen without having to persuade us leavers we got it wrong. Remainers have been doing that for 3 years without success.

Your immediate task is trying to work out which of Labour or Lib Dems you want the remain vote to coalesce around. This is not an easy thing to co-ordinate, but if they go to polling day on 23% each you'll get wiped. (Boris's task is somewhat easier, all he has to do is persuade leavers he will definitely hard leave and he gets the bulk of the leave vote.)

If you can't figure that conundrum out, you'll have to be more devious about it. I gather there's a plan for a Unity government to not only extend article 50, but to also oversee a referendum (all before a GE), where the choices will be limited to either remain or remain+. Clever! I like it!

(Nice editing of my post, by the way.)

[AndyClaret]

Who knew that the surrender act makes getting a deal harder ? i mean, it's not like anybody warned about it did they ?

[JohnMcGreal]

Who knew that the surrender act makes getting a deal harder ? i mean, it's not like anybody warned about it did they ?

What happened to the easiest deal in history Andy? What happened to the EU bending over backwards for us? What happened to us holding all the cards after voting to leave? What happened to the row of the summer?

All those bullshit claims made by Leavers had disintegrated long before the Benn Act was even conceived. But let me guess, you've got a whole load of excuses for why they all turned out to be faulty, and none of them are because of the lying spivs in the Leave campaigns, are they?

Also, the Benn act will lead to the third extension of article 50, so let's not pretend that this is the reason your side has utterly failed here. They and their doomed project failed a long time ago.

[Paul Waine]

Whatever you do don't ask why we're still leaving, or people might see the Emperor has no clothes!

Hi Combat, I guess the question is, is the EU the "Emperor" or leaving the EU? You might have identified the reason the leave vote was the majority in 2016, leavers were the ones who had seen that "the Emperor was in the all together."

Based on the way the EU has behaved since then, would you argue that the EU has "smoothed the path" for a member state to leave or displayed a negativity that is the best demonstration of why leaving is the best course for the UK?

Oh that we can all get through this and get to a time in the future when the EU and UK can be friends again, with the UK supporting the EU from the outside.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is geopolitics. Adults only.

Varadkar is like the little kid in the playground trying to push around the big kid in the year because he thinks all the others have his back.

He is the one who needs to read his history books - I am half Irish, I know the history books inside out, and a conciliatory approach to the UK was a must. He went the opposite route. Now he will see if the other kids turn away when that big kid comes out swinging.

This isn’t a game - he must have hugely annoyed those in Number 10, not least by constantly changing the goalposts and backtracking on promises. If the Irish have any sense they would get rid of him quick.

Three years

You have learnt nothing about how the EU operates in three years.

There is zero % it will throw Ireland under a bus (a member) to accomodate a country that is leaving.

[Lancasterclaret]

I had a feeling you would like this approach Lancs

I think the general thrust is that allies are not real allies if they interfere in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country over the head of their elected Parliament.

Thanks to the Benn Act and the democracy deniers in Parliament, the time for supplication is now over. Let us not forget Tusk offered us a free trade deal with close partnership on all the science and security stuff.

Then he withdrew the offer.

He would be wise to remember the power is always with the country with the money in their pocket, I’ve said this from the start, it’s an illusion to think otherwise.

I posted just before I went to bed and I did wonder if I was being a bit harsh.

But I've looked at it in the cold hard light of day and I don't think I was being harsh enough.

We live in a world that gives us daily challenges in the field of security and co-operation with all allies in the EU (who are also in NATO in the main) is key to that.

So we'd jeopardize that because the ERG can't get their perfect, dreamed about Brexit and we might have to settle for a realistic one?

Just reinforces the view from my side that the generation driving this took all the wrong lessons from the war, and none of the correct ones.

And this is the best line ever

I think the general thrust is that allies are not real allies if they interfere in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country over the head of their elected Parliament.

The EU will only interfere in our domestic affairs if they actually refuse to accept an extension which has been voted for in our democratically elected parliament, as we are a parliamentary democracy.

For Crosspool to claim that the EU is interfering in our internal politics because they are doing exactly the opposite is ludicrous and sums up where we are.

Seriously mate, just how far down the rabbit hole are you?

EDIT - Clearly some Brexiteers are deeply unhappy with this policy even on this thread. That is some consolation, and i hope this ludicrous plan never sees the light of day

[Heathclaret]

Our huge power in the world?

I know the history books inside out.

You need to stop looking backwards. Britain is a small to mid size fish in a ocean full of bigger ones. If the banking sector contracts and moves abroad, we are in serious trouble.

The idea we can bully countries is morally wrong and literally wrong. We just don’t have that leverage any more.

[Lancasterclaret]

I agree (though he is also targeting the EU as a contingency plan).

Don’t rule out a motion early next week to repeal the Benn Act. With our proposal on the table many rebel MPs may decide to return to the fold and give the EU a clear choice.

Okay

So because we have a deal that the EU won't agree to because of very obvious issues with the Irish border and the GFA, the plan to stop a "No Deal" will be ditched by parliament at exactly the same time it will be needed as the deal arranged by the ERG won't be acceptable to the EU?

[Lancasterclaret]

Is this another one of those things people have made up about me but keep getting repeated?

Like i fund Tommy Robinson (i can barely afford my monthly rent let alone pay a millionaire) and/or that I am a white supremacist?

I mean feel free to add it onto the pile.

This was the one. Glad to know you are not in it.

I was probably trolling, never been on a march in my entire life.

I'm not into herd behaviour.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The elected parliament that wants an extension in the event of no deal? If you don’t want these allies to ‘interfere’ them surely they accept the delay our sovereign parliament requests.

I do beg your pardon Martin, of course I meant elected Government, not elected Parliament, which I have now edited. Sorry fo the confusion.

Foreign treaties are entirely a Government issue (at least up until this year).

[CrosspoolClarets]

Perhaps you're right, but it makes little difference either way, no-one is changing their mind anymore. Both sides are completely dug in. If you really want to remain, you'd be better served trying to work out ways to make it happen without having to persuade us leavers we got it wrong. Remainers have been doing that for 3 years without success.

Your immediate task is trying to work out which of Labour or Lib Dems you want the remain vote to coalesce around. This is not an easy thing to co-ordinate, but if they go to polling day on 23% each you'll get wiped. (Boris's task is somewhat easier, all he has to do is persuade leavers he will definitely hard leave and he gets the bulk of the leave vote.)

If you can't figure that conundrum out, you'll have to be more devious about it. I gather there's a plan for a Unity government to not only extend article 50, but to also oversee a referendum (all before a GE), where the choices will be limited to either remain or remain+. Clever! I like it!

(Nice editing of my post, by the way.)

The trouble with the Remain approach you describe is that their vote is focused heavily on affluent and student metropolitan areas, relatively few constituencies. As has been cleverly shown on a cool graphic, everywhere with a Pret A Manger.

It is quite simple - if Johnson takes the Brexit Party vote in a Brexit election, he wins big.

So the only hope for Remain to actually Remain is to do one of two things:

a) take over the Government with a coup an hold another referendum before an election (it may work, but the payback would be long and brutal, even by today’s standards - I would predict that within 10 years first past the post, the House of Lords, the BBC and the Supreme Court would all be gone (sadly).

b) Labour win an election or a minority government using traditional arguments, i.e. Johnson’s character, Labour public spending, capping private schools, nationalisation etc. To win they would need to retain all their Leave seats by not promoting Remain, and then team up with the Lib Dem’s who would nibble into the Tories. Corbyn gets this, I suspect, to give him credit.

[Colburn_Claret]

The elected parliament that wants an extension in the event of no deal? If you don’t want these allies to ‘interfere’ them surely they accept the delay our sovereign parliament requests.

The problem is the elected parliament isnt acting on behalf of the electorate, the majority who voted leave. Democracy is a wonderful thing, but it dies the death when those elected refuse to represent the peoples wishes.
Not just on the Brexit issue, but every issue, this House is the worst in history. Brexit needs delivering. Then the first thing we should do is get rid of as much of the deadwood in Parliament as possible.

[Spijed]

The problem is the elected parliament isnt acting on behalf of the electorate, the majority who voted leave. Democracy is a wonderful thing, but it dies the death when those elected refuse to represent the peoples wishes.
Not just on the Brexit issue, but every issue, this House is the worst in history. Brexit needs delivering. Then the first thing we should do is get rid of as much of the deadwood in Parliament as possible.

But what happens if there is still a hung parliament after the next GE?

Where do we go from there?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Three years

You have learnt nothing about how the EU operates in three years.

There is zero % it will throw Ireland under a bus (a member) to accomodate a country that is leaving.

Morning Lancs.

Actually, there have been some huge assumptions on this page that I support this action. I do not. I was highlighting the seismic nature of the news, not supporting it. But that is Cummings - he is a fan of burning things to the ground and building them up, it is highly impressive in one sense, but can backfire.

Regarding your above, I think we all know how the EU works. The punishment of Ireland will come after No Deal, probably by a near immediate free trade deal with Brazil, Argentina and Australia focusing on beef whilst Ireland has a tariff put in place. I support that approach, but not one of security or defence withdrawals, nor one of overt threats in the public domain.

But who knows, maybe we do not know the EU as well as we think, and they will compromise? Not long to wait.

[CrosspoolClarets]

But what happens if there is still a hung parliament after the next GE?

Where do we go from there?

The problem is not the hung Parliament it is the maverick Remain Tory rebels. I doubt they would be allowed to stand again. A Parliament re-elected with exactly the same numbers would likely allow Johnson and the DUP to win votes.

[summitclaret]

The problem is not the hung Parliament it is the maverick Remain Tory rebels. I doubt they would be allowed to stand again. A Parliament re-elected with exactly the same numbers would likely allow Johnson and the DUP to win votes.

If tories let the likes Grieve stand again then they deserve to fail.

[aggi]

Morning Lancs.

Actually, there have been some huge assumptions on this page that I support this action. I do not. I was highlighting the seismic nature of the news, not supporting it. But that is Cummings - he is a fan of burning things to the ground and building them up, it is highly impressive in one sense, but can backfire.

Regarding your above, I think we all know how the EU works. The punishment of Ireland will come after No Deal, probably by a near immediate free trade deal with Brazil, Argentina and Australia focusing on beef whilst Ireland has a tariff put in place. I support that approach, but not one of security or defence withdrawals, nor one of overt threats in the public domain.

But who knows, maybe we do not know the EU as well as we think, and they will compromise? Not long to wait.

That punishment would simultaneously end a large part of our farming sector as well. These things don't happen in isolation.

[aggi]

I do beg your pardon Martin, of course I meant elected Government, not elected Parliament, which I have now edited. Sorry fo the confusion.

Foreign treaties are entirely a Government issue (at least up until this year).

I think here you're conflating government and parliament. It is parliament that normally has the power, not government. However a government normally has a majority which is what gives it the power.

[Lancasterclaret]

Morning Lancs.

Actually, there have been some huge assumptions on this page that I support this action. I do not. I was highlighting the seismic nature of the news, not supporting it. But that is Cummings - he is a fan of burning things to the ground and building them up, it is highly impressive in one sense, but can backfire.

Morning CC, glad that you don't agree with this. It is Cummings to a tee, but its completely unacceptable and I would hope that we never see this again.

Regarding your above, I think we all know how the EU works. The punishment of Ireland will come after No Deal, probably by a near immediate free trade deal with Brazil, Argentina and Australia focusing on beef whilst Ireland has a tariff put in place. I support that approach, but not one of security or defence withdrawals, nor one of overt threats in the public domain.

But who knows, maybe we do not know the EU as well as we think, and they will compromise? Not long to wait.

How long have the MERSCOR negotiations with the EU being going on CC?

You continue to say things about FTAs like they are agreed overnight like reinsuring your car or something. That is false, and I think you know it. Please stop doing it!

EU won't compromise on its core principles. You know that. If the UK sticks to this plan, then I'm pretty sure that we are in the zone where Brexit is more likely never to happen.

You don't seem to get (which I find very surprising) what the EU can and can't compromise on. You are not alone in this, but it does show how effectively brain washed the UK is about how much the EU apparently needs us more than we need them.

Someone has summed up this spectator article really well

"Two ways to read this piece as a whole:
1) downing street believes what's written in it, and is utterly deluded
2) downing street thinks pretending to believe all this stuff and leaking it will influence EU negotiators, and is utterly deluded"

[aggi]

Don't get dragged into it! You don't have to justify your position one bit in 2019. That debate was for 2016 and leave won the vote. Had remain won, do you think remainers would feel obliged to keep justifying their reasons for 3 straight years? Do you think they'd even bother replying to you if you demanded why they voted remain 3 years earlier?

Ignore them. Concentrate on how we go about leaving, and what can be done to mitigate the risks of doing so.

Quite apart from the fact that refusing to give reasons as to why people want to leave makes it sound like they don't really know why, it's very difficult to work out how to leave if we don't know why people want to leave.

For instance jakubclaret wants to leave due to free movement of people so any deal involving that staying wouldn't be acceptable. If people can't be clear about why they want to leave them they can't complain if the leave that we finally get doesn't match their expectations.

[Colburn_Claret]

What happened to the easiest deal in history Andy? What happened to the EU bending over backwards for us? What happened to us holding all the cards after voting to leave? What happened to the row of the summer?

All those bullshit claims made by Leavers had disintegrated long before the Benn Act was even conceived. But let me guess, you've got a whole load of excuses for why they all turned out to be faulty, and none of them are because of the lying spivs in the Leave campaigns, are they?

Also, the Benn act will lead to the third extension of article 50, so let's not pretend that this is the reason your side has utterly failed here. They and their doomed project failed a long time ago.

Are you completely thick, or just taking the ****.
Nobody knew when they said getting a deal would be easy, that the HOC was going to do everything it could to undermine any meaningful negotiations. You'd have needed a crystal ball.
A deal would have been easy if it weren't for the actions of remainers in Parliament. They've been working for 3 years to get the referendum overturned, it's no surprise under the circumstances that the EU doesn't want to deal.
IF we leave with no deal, great, you've got no one to blame but your blinkered undemocratic buddies in Parliament.



I'll copy and paste it later. You've had this explained to you God knows how many times, yet you still manage to ignore the patently bloody obvious.

[AndrewJB]

I do beg your pardon Martin, of course I meant elected Government, not elected Parliament, which I have now edited. Sorry fo the confusion.

Foreign treaties are entirely a Government issue (at least up until this year).

Parliament is elected - not government. Parliament makes the government. Parliament is sovereign. Parliament can pass laws on anything it wants - including treaties with foreign governments.

[Lancasterclaret]

Are you completely thick, or just taking the ****.
Nobody knew when they said getting a deal would be easy, that the HOC was going to do everything it could to undermine any meaningful negotiations. You'd have needed a crystal ball.
A deal would have been easy if it weren't for the actions of remainers in Parliament. They've been working for 3 years to get the referendum overturned, it's no surprise under the circumstances that the EU doesn't want to deal.
IF we leave with no deal, great, you've got no one to blame but your blinkered undemocratic buddies in Parliament.



I'll copy and paste it later. You've had this explained to you God knows how many times, yet you still manage to ignore the patently bloody obvious.

And exactly the same post could be aimed at you Colburn.

The easy deal never existed. It only existed pre-2016. As soon as the referendum was won, the reality of it sank in.

Impossible to have our cake and eat it in 2016, in 2017, in 2018 and guess what? just as impossible in 2019.

The ability to ignore reality is quite, quite breathtaking.

[martin_p]

I do beg your pardon Martin, of course I meant elected Government, not elected Parliament, which I have now edited. Sorry fo the confusion.

Foreign treaties are entirely a Government issue (at least up until this year).

That’s no better really given the government wasn’t elected.

[Colburn_Claret]

But what happens if there is still a hung parliament after the next GE?

Where do we go from there?

Wether the Parliament is hung should be irrelevant to delivering the referendum.

I dont believe there will be a hung parliament however, unless Boris completely screws it up, but if there should be having a coalition focused on domestic issues should be fine. Its Brexit that is so divisive which is why yet another delay should be the last thing anyone wants.