Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

Wether the Parliament is hung should be irrelevant to delivering the referendum.

I dont believe there will be a hung parliament however, unless Boris completely screws it up, but if there should be having a coalition focused on domestic issues should be fine. Its Brexit that is so divisive which is why yet another delay should be the last thing anyone wants.

You don't think your fantasy Brexit delusion isn't as divisive?

Look, I get that you believe that you don't know anyone who voted remain, but surely you concede that the reality is far different and we are a genuinely split country on this?

The only deal that unites us is one that we can all deal with, and that is emphatically not "No Deal".

And we need an extension even its the deal Johnston has, because of the time scale we have left.

An extension is the only sensible option.

[Colburn_Claret]

And exactly the same post could be aimed at you Colburn.

The easy deal never existed. It only existed pre-2016. As soon as the referendum was won, the reality of it sank in.

Impossible to have our cake and eat it in 2016, in 2017, in 2018 and guess what? just as impossible in 2019.

The ability to ignore reality is quite, quite breathtaking.

That's ******** Lancs.
The sad fact is we are never going to prove this one way or another, because the backstabbing, and back tracking cant be undone. However I think it's clear that the actions of Remainers in Parliament have more than hindered any hope of meaningful negotiations. They could have supported May or Johnson, if they really wanted a 'good' deal, but the support was never forthcoming. They dont want any deal, good or bad, they just want to remain.
I dont need to persuade you of this, it doesn't matter, the majority of the rational world can see it, even if you can't.

[Lancasterclaret]

That's ******** Lancs.
The sad fact is we are never going to prove this one way or another, because the backstabbing, and back tracking cant be undone. However I think it's clear that the actions of Remainers in Parliament have more than hindered any hope of meaningful negotiations. They could have supported May or Johnson, if they really wanted a 'good' deal, but the support was never forthcoming. They dont want any deal, good or bad, they just want to remain.
I dont need to persuade you of this, it doesn't matter, the majority of the rational world can see it, even if you can't.

Until you accept that the deal promised in 2016 would not have happened even if Parliament had a Brexit majority of 600, then you are going to continue to be disappointed.

if you continue to press for a Brexit that isn't possible, then you are running the huge risk of Brexit not happening at all.

[Lancasterclaret]

And the reality of Cumming memo and what it actually means

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/11 ... 1511608320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Colburn_Claret]

You don't think your fantasy Brexit delusion isn't as divisive?

Look, I get that you believe that you don't know anyone who voted remain, but surely you concede that the reality is far different and we are a genuinely split country on this?

The only deal that unites us is one that we can all deal with, and that is emphatically not "No Deal".

And we need an extension even its the deal Johnston has, because of the time scale we have left.

An extension is the only sensible option.

Try telling the businesses across the country that a further delay is a sensible option. They've been hit enough already, all they want is clarity to move forward, and all you are offering is more fudge. And even leaving under WTO is clarity.

The country is clearly split on this, but we had a vote, the referendum. Despite your federalist love in, why do you think its democratic to delay, delay, delay in the hope that some Leavers might migrate across the void. What if they did? Do we delay, delay, delay again until those same people migrate back again.
It cant go on like this. You lost, get over it, move on.

There is nothing to stop a future government from saying this was a mistake, we need to get back in again. The fear remainers have is that if we do leave first, and the scaremongering is shown to be just that. That leaving was a good idea after all, then they know it's all over. Well never be part of the European Empire.

[Mala591]

Extension scenario:

GE at the end of November
Tories campaign to guarantee a no-deal Brexit
Brexit Party stand down in all but 20 seats which are their best hopes (Burnley?)
Tories win election with 40 majority
No-deal Brexit in the middle of January

This is not what I want it is just a prediction.

[Tall Paul]

The fear remainers have is that if we do leave first, and the scaremongering is shown to be just that. That leaving was a good idea after all, then they know it's all over. Well never be part of the European Empire.

Pretty sure the truth is the exact opposite of this.

[Lancasterclaret]

Try telling the businesses across the country that a further delay is a sensible option. They've been hit enough already, all they want is clarity to move forward, and all you are offering is more fudge. And even leaving under WTO is clarity.

The country is clearly split on this, but we had a vote, the referendum. Despite your federalist love in, why do you think its democratic to delay, delay, delay in the hope that some Leavers might migrate across the void. What if they did? Do we delay, delay, delay again until those same people migrate back again.
It cant go on like this. You lost, get over it, move on.

There is nothing to stop a future government from saying this was a mistake, we need to get back in again. The fear remainers have is that if we do leave first, and the scaremongering is shown to be just that. That leaving was a good idea after all, then they know it's all over. Well never be part of the European Empire.

"federalist love in"?

LOL

I did wonder how long it would take for any attempt at a proper argument would end up at "WE WON, YOU LOST, GET OVER IT"

The more you demand your perfect Brexit, the more likely it is to slip away.

[martin_p]

The noises coming out of Number 10 now suggesting that any chance of a deal now gone after a call with Merkel this morning. More over Johnson seems to be indicating that he doesn’t think there’ll ever be a deal so it’s either leave on 31st without one or fight an election on a ‘no deal’ ticket. Big shift if true and seriously bad news for Nigel and co.

[aggi]

Try telling the businesses across the country that a further delay is a sensible option. They've been hit enough already, all they want is clarity to move forward, and all you are offering is more fudge. And even leaving under WTO is clarity.

The country is clearly split on this, but we had a vote, the referendum. Despite your federalist love in, why do you think its democratic to delay, delay, delay in the hope that some Leavers might migrate across the void. What if they did? Do we delay, delay, delay again until those same people migrate back again.
It cant go on like this. You lost, get over it, move on.

There is nothing to stop a future government from saying this was a mistake, we need to get back in again. The fear remainers have is that if we do leave first, and the scaremongering is shown to be just that. That leaving was a good idea after all, then they know it's all over. Well never be part of the European Empire.

It's not though is it.

I mean I guess there's clarity for some sectors. For the agriculture sector for instance then leaving under WTO rules will give clarity that they're ******. For a lot of other areas though there is very little clarity.

I was reading the government's guidance for auditors post-Brexit yesterday. A large part of it is "We don't know, you'll have to ask the other countries". It's not clarity.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The noises coming out of Number 10 now suggesting that any chance of a deal now gone after a call with Merkel this morning. More over Johnson seems to be indicating that he doesn’t think there’ll ever be a deal so it’s either leave on 31st without one or fight an election on a ‘no deal’ ticket. Big shift if true and seriously bad news for Nigel and co.

If that is the case then that should be the next move. Something needs to be done and decided one way or the other, be it leave without a deal or remain, this ******** has gone on way too long.

If there is an election and leave with no deal wins then that is the result, same with if remain wins.

[AlargeClaret]

Boris is still legally obliged to ask the EU for an extension so I guess it’s either:

Eu decline -we leave with no deal and an election sans farage.

Eu accept ( surely most likely ) Johnson removed via no confidence vote , temporary pm calls an election which is fought deal or no deal with Farago wrecking the Tories

[Lancasterclaret]

Boris is still legally obliged to ask the EU for an extension so I guess it’s either:

Eu decline -we leave with no deal and an election sans farage.

Eu accept ( surely most likely ) Johnson removed via no confidence vote , temporary pm calls an election which is fought deal or no deal with Farago wrecking the Tories

I have absolutely no idea which way this will go.

Almost certain now its "No Deal" or "Remain"

[CrosspoolClarets]

That punishment would simultaneously end a large part of our farming sector as well. These things don't happen in isolation.

Not necessarily.

We will be outside EU state aid rules.

Due to the desire of nations to be self sufficient I can see farming being a prime target for state aid, but of course the devil would be in the detail - leaving the EU is critical for our future, but only a first step.

(as an aside, on a related point I won also expect us to encourage parts of the manufacturing supply change to relocate to the UK with the use of enterprise zones and free ports, coupled with the investment in training colleges and a reform of the apprenticeship levy)

[Lancasterclaret]

Not necessarily.

We will be outside EU state aid rules.

Due to the desire of nations to be self sufficient I can see farming being a prime target for state aid, but of course the devil would be in the detail - leaving the EU is critical for our future, but only a first step.

(as an aside, on a related point I won also expect us to encourage parts of the manufacturing supply change to relocate to the UK with the use of enterprise zones and free ports, coupled with the investment in training colleges and a reform of the apprenticeship levy)

Have you seen the latest UK tariffs released today CC

Throws the farmers under a bus.

[Colburn_Claret]

Pretty sure the truth is the exact opposite of this.

Then lets test it. As I said, nothing prevents a future government from taking us back in if it turns out wrong. What's to fear.

[Lancasterclaret]

Then lets test it. As I said, nothing prevents a future government from taking us back in if it turns out wrong. What's to fear.

That only works if you deny the existence of everything that everyone has been telling you about the effects of Brexit.

That is the UK Government all the way down to posters on here.

Just process that for a minute

[aggi]

Not necessarily.

We will be outside EU state aid rules.

Due to the desire of nations to be self sufficient I can see farming being a prime target for state aid, but of course the devil would be in the detail - leaving the EU is critical for our future, but only a first step.

(as an aside, on a related point I won also expect us to encourage parts of the manufacturing supply change to relocate to the UK with the use of enterprise zones and free ports, coupled with the investment in training colleges and a reform of the apprenticeship levy)

I thought your plan was WTO. There are also WTO rules for state aid as well. ON top of that it's going to be a struggle to get Brazil, Australia etc to sign up to those trade deals when the UK is also subsidising its farming industry. It's not going to be an attractuve deal for them in that case.

I know a lot of people (not necessarily you) have an idea of this utopia when we leave the EU when the UK will be able to do whatever it wants without being restrained by anyone but that just isn't reality. The EU is just one part of this global framework.

[Colburn_Claret]

"federalist love in"?

LOL

I did wonder how long it would take for any attempt at a proper argument would end up at "WE WON, YOU LOST, GET OVER IT"

The more you demand your perfect Brexit, the more likely it is to slip away.

You've a very selective memory.
You've already admitted on this thread many moons ago now, that you do believe in a federalist United States of Europe.

Are you now saying you've changed your mind, or do you just not know what you believe in any more.

Theres no such thing as a perfect Brexit. Whatever happens there are winners and losers. The only thing that matters is when we leave, we leave in a way where the EU no longer has a say on our future. Whatever that future is.

We won, you lost, get over it isnt an argument, it's a fact. The only reason we are still here arguing 3 years on, is because you cant accept that simple fact.

[aggi]

Then lets test it. As I said, nothing prevents a future government from taking us back in if it turns out wrong. What's to fear.

Schengen, the Euro, loss of vetoes, etc

[If it be your will]

Quite apart from the fact that refusing to give reasons as to why people want to leave makes it sound like they don't really know why, it's very difficult to work out how to leave if we don't know why people want to leave.

For instance jakubclaret wants to leave due to free movement of people so any deal involving that staying wouldn't be acceptable. If people can't be clear about why they want to leave them they can't complain if the leave that we finally get doesn't match their expectations.

Yes, but we can do that by talking amongst ourselves in the leave camp, whilst you can talk about how to go about remaining in the remain camp. Paths don't really have to cross now - the referendum has already taken place.

It makes the whole thing less objectionable.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Morning CC, glad that you don't agree with this. It is Cummings to a tee, but its completely unacceptable and I would hope that we never see this again.



How long have the MERSCOR negotiations with the EU being going on CC?

You continue to say things about FTAs like they are agreed overnight like reinsuring your car or something. That is false, and I think you know it. Please stop doing it!

EU won't compromise on its core principles. You know that. If the UK sticks to this plan, then I'm pretty sure that we are in the zone where Brexit is more likely never to happen.

You don't seem to get (which I find very surprising) what the EU can and can't compromise on. You are not alone in this, but it does show how effectively brain washed the UK is about how much the EU apparently needs us more than we need them.

Someone has summed up this spectator article really well

"Two ways to read this piece as a whole:
1) downing street believes what's written in it, and is utterly deluded
2) downing street thinks pretending to believe all this stuff and leaking it will influence EU negotiators, and is utterly deluded"

Th speed of an Australian trade deal was mentioned just a month ago by Simon Birmingham, Trade Minister. He said it could happen within weeks of Brexit. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t, but I am just paying attention to what is said.

The other point you made is about the EU compromises - that would be fine and dandy, but they are changing tac and doing about turns al the time (hence why Cummings in his leak refers to Varadkar going back on promises). There were numerous tweets yesterday from Greg Hands MP, about the Prosperity UK report he authored on the Irish issue, telling people to go back and read the report, and that it addressed many of the issues the EU now claim haven’t been addressed.

Let us not forget that it was Tusk who offered a free trade deal in 2016/2017, and let us not also forget that Tusk said that checks away from the border or at ports would be acceptable, but no new infrastructure. Rowing back from that is playing hardball, not respecting an original red line.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Parliament is elected - not government. Parliament makes the government. Parliament is sovereign. Parliament can pass laws on anything it wants - including treaties with foreign governments.

Not true - read the House of Common’s Library on this issue. Bercow reinventing the rules has confused many people I admit, but in the Gina Miller case in 2017 the Supreme Court made it clear what Parliament can and cannot do.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... ry/SN05855

It isn’t just treaties. Can Parliament take control of MI6 and send James Bond to sort this mess out? No. The Queen has asked Boris to form a Government on her behalf - nobody else.

[Lancasterclaret]

You've a very selective memory.
You've already admitted on this thread many moons ago now, that you do believe in a federalist United States of Europe.

Are you now saying you've changed your mind, or do you just not know what you believe in any more.

Theres no such thing as a perfect Brexit. Whatever happens there are winners and losers. The only thing that matters is when we leave, we leave in a way where the EU no longer has a say on our future. Whatever that future is.

We won, you lost, get over it isnt an argument, it's a fact. The only reason we are still here arguing 3 years on, is because you cant accept that simple fact.

You've spent three years pretending things haven't happened

You've spent three years pretending things have happened that haven't

You've spent three years inventing powers the EU have that they haven't

You've spent three years ignoring stuff that isn't what you already believe, and you refuse to admit you've been wrong about anything, even when presented with the evidence that you are.

As I said, refusal to accept reality massively increases the chances that your Brexit will not happen.

I'm not an ex-federalist btw, I'm still one, but more one in favour of a federal UK. I don't think its feasible to have one in Europe, nor do I think it likely with the current make up of the EU.

[yTib]

australian trade deal. australian points system.

the straws that folk will grasp at to try to convince themselves that this isn't disastrous are truly amazing.

btw australia has a population of about 25 million people.

[Lancasterclaret]

No offence Crosspool, but all the trade experts I follow on twitter have been in a state of permanent disbelief about the unrealistic ideas of what trade deals are with the UK Government.

[Colburn_Claret]

That only works if you deny the existence of everything that everyone has been telling you about the effects of Brexit.

That is the UK Government all the way down to posters on here.

Just process that for a minute

I don't believe what SOME people have been saying about the effects of Brexit. It's all supposition.
What I do know for a certainty, is that if we remain we'll be locked into the most undemocratic political system in the world. We'll be tied to a system that takes more and more power away from Westminster, which is exactly the same as taking power away from the people. Locked into a closer monetary policy, that will screw us royally when the next recession hits, and it will hit like night follows day.

I understand the fear, it's not accidental, it's a deliberate ploy used many times by the EU and its supporters. They want people to think they cant survive without them. They tell you often enough until your brainwashed into believing it.
I have a lot more faith in mankind, and especially the British, that we can survive bloody well outside the EU. You're not alone, there are many people across Europe who hate the EU, but fear the consequences of leaving. We are the litmus test, and the EU know it, if we leave and succeed people will have the courage to jump ship, and leave the rats to sink.

[Lancasterclaret]

What I do know for a certainty, is that if we remain we'll be locked into the most undemocratic political system in the world.

This is what Brexit is doing to people.

They will post this on a public message board without a care in the world.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I thought your plan was WTO. There are also WTO rules for state aid as well. ON top of that it's going to be a struggle to get Brazil, Australia etc to sign up to those trade deals when the UK is also subsidising its farming industry. It's not going to be an attractuve deal for them in that case.

I know a lot of people (not necessarily you) have an idea of this utopia when we leave the EU when the UK will be able to do whatever it wants without being restrained by anyone but that just isn't reality. The EU is just one part of this global framework.

My plan is a deal. But BJ needs a majority or the DUP, so playing tough will get him that majority, leading to him negotiating a compromise the DUP are not fully comfortable with.

That is where I suspect we will end, but there has to be a point where we walk away from stupid posturing (which is where I feel the EU are, the GFA is not the issue, wanting us to lose N Ireland as punishment is the issue).

I agree with you that trade deals are a cat’s cradle of issues between dozens of countries, but some quick ones can be done first and fine tuned later.

[claret2018]

All this mess because some people don't like foreigners

[Lancasterclaret]

My plan is a deal. But BJ needs a majority or the DUP, so playing tough will get him that majority, leading to him negotiating a compromise the DUP are not fully comfortable with.

That is where I suspect we will end, but there has to be a point where we walk away from stupid posturing (which is where I feel the EU are, the GFA is not the issue, wanting us to lose N Ireland as punishment is the issue).

I agree with you that trade deals are a cat’s cradle of issues between dozens of countries, but some quick ones can be done first and fine tuned later.

The GFA is the issue because it is Irelands priority, which makes it the EUs priority.

This is the reality.

[Right_winger]

The GFA is the issue because it is Irelands priority, which makes it the EUs priority.

This is the reality.

I think the EU have already shown that they don’t give a toss about the GFA.

We should just leave now WTO and let the EU protect its precious SM/CU as they will be rightfully blamed. Varadkar has Vastly overplayed his hand and it will come back to haunt him when Ireland is going to implode on itself.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the EU have already shown that they don’t give a toss about the GFA.

When?

[CombatClaret]

Amazing analysis highlighted today of how the real end game is not Brexit but Johnson in power for 5 long years, predicted in July and played out exactly.

https://twitter.com/syrpis/status/1154286327699005440" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

You've spent three years pretending things haven't happened

You've spent three years pretending things have happened that haven't

You've spent three years inventing powers the EU have that they haven't

You've spent three years ignoring stuff that isn't what you already believe, and you refuse to admit you've been wrong about anything, even when presented with the evidence that you are.

As I said, refusal to accept reality massively increases the chances that your Brexit will not happen.

I'm not an ex-federalist btw, I'm still one, but more one in favour of a federal UK. I don't think its feasible to have one in Europe, nor do I think it likely with the current make up of the EU.

You've spent three years pretending the 2016 Peoples Vote never happened.


It did.

As a member of the North Korean Clarets process this.











Democracy- it means sometimes you lose.

[Lancasterclaret]

You've spent three years pretending the 2016 Peoples Vote never happened.


It did.

As a member of the North Korean Clarets process this.











Democracy- it means sometimes you lose.

Its almost like you read what you want me to say, rather than what I'm actually saying isn't it?

Care to read my posts on this thread and back that claim up with some quotes from me?

[RingoMcCartney]

I think the EU have already shown that they don’t give a toss about the GFA

Agreed. David Trimble, and he should know, says the May's deal, the new EU treaty, the back stop, call it what you like, breaks the Good Friday Agreement. (No doubt the UTC message board self proclaimed political heavyweights, will claim it doesn't)

If it goes to a no deal, given that the UK have already shown they dont want, and will not put in place , a hard border, Varadker could be the Taoscioch responsible for a hard border.

That'll do his electoral prospects a lot of good!!!

Anyway, it seems to have been forgotten. Barnier has previously reassured Varadker that in the event of a no deal withdrawal, there will be no need for a hard border.

As our Irish cousins would say, it's a crock of Shoite.

[RingoMcCartney]

Its almost like you read what you want me to say, rather than what I'm actually saying isn't it?

Care to read my posts on this thread and back that claim up with some quotes from me?

Cant be arsed, and if I could, I'd only need to read one.


They all say the same thing.

You dont believe in democracy being implemented. You dont believe in losers consent.

Anyway I'll let you get back to your huffing and puffing.

[Damo]

The tone of remainers on here and other social media platforms, suggests we are closer to getting the brexit the people voted for

[Lancasterclaret]

Brexiteer supporter and commentator

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/11 ... 1891704833" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Cant be arsed, and if I could, I'd only need to read one.


They all say the same thing.

You dont believe in democracy being implemented. You dont believe in losers consent.

Anyway I'll let you get back to your huffing and puffing.

So thats a "No" then

What. A. Shock.

[RingoMcCartney]

EU calms Varadkar’s fears of physical Border checks after Brexit
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... -1.3569485" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one will impose border checks on Ireland, so let's stop pretending it's an issue
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ing-issue/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like I said , Hard Border!?

Crock of shoite.

[Chip Harrison]

My plan is a deal. But BJ needs a majority or the DUP, so playing tough will get him that majority, leading to him negotiating a compromise the DUP are not fully comfortable with.

That is where I suspect we will end, but there has to be a point where we walk away from stupid posturing (which is where I feel the EU are, the GFA is not the issue, wanting us to lose N Ireland as punishment is the issue).

I agree with you that trade deals are a cat’s cradle of issues between dozens of countries, but some quick ones can be done first and fine tuned later.

Well, I've read some rubbish in this thread but this is the hands down winner.

[Lancasterclaret]

Reporters covering the Johnston plan being scrutinised at committee level in Parliament.

Agree that the plan is a change from the 2017 declaration from the UK Government about "No Hard Border"

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1181531491051823104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Serious question

Does anyone actually believe No 10s briefing of the what Merkel said in the telephone call about Northern Ireland?

Anyone?

[AndyClaret]

When?

Maybe when they said a hard border has to go in to protect the single market in the event of No Deal.

[AndyClaret]

Brexiteer supporter and commentator

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/11 ... 1891704833" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Err Hodges is a Remainer, who voted remain.

[Lancasterclaret]

Maybe when they said a hard border has to go in to protect the single market in the event of No Deal.

Not at the border though, and only in the event of a "No Deal", which in case we forget, was completely dismissed as an option by anyone and everybody before the referendum in 2016.

[AndyClaret]

Serious question

Does anyone actually believe No 10s briefing of the what Merkel said in the telephone call about Northern Ireland?

Anyone?

She's only repeating what Selmyer said last year. "The price you will pay for Brexit is N Ireland".

[Tall Paul]

I don't believe what SOME people have been saying about the effects of Brexit. It's all supposition.
What I do know for a certainty, is that if we remain we'll be locked into the most undemocratic political system in the world. We'll be tied to a system that takes more and more power away from Westminster, which is exactly the same as taking power away from the people. Locked into a closer monetary policy, that will screw us royally when the next recession hits, and it will hit like night follows day.

This is the real scaremongering.