Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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AndyClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not at the border though, and only in the event of a "No Deal", which in case we forget, was completely dismissed as an option by anyone and everybody before the referendum in 2016.
So we can have checks away from the border in the event of No Deal, but not with a deal, go figure.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:48 pm

AndyClaret wrote:So we can have checks away from the border in the event of No Deal, but not with a deal, go figure.
Nope

Again, you need to understand that a "No Deal" is the Uk choice, and the EU have to react to it.

You won't, but it doesn't matter as you are not likely to change your mind.

The problem you have is that everyone who is as capable of ignoring reality like you, Ringo, Crosspool, Colburn etc is only a percentage of the Brexit vote.

The ones that believed what they were told in 2016 about the NHS, easiest trade deal ever etc, are the ones who are going to be turned off by people telling them that annexing Northern Ireland is a German masterplan since the war.

There is a limit to what levels of bullshit people will accept, and the Brexit row has gone way past what that level.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nope

Again, you need to understand that a "No Deal" is the Uk choice, and the EU have to react to it.

You won't, but it doesn't matter as you are not likely to change your mind.

The problem you have is that everyone who is as capable of ignoring reality like you, Ringo, Crosspool, Colburn etc is only a percentage of the Brexit vote.

The ones that believed what they were told in 2016 about the NHS, easiest trade deal ever etc, are the ones who are going to be turned off by people telling them that annexing Northern Ireland is a German masterplan since the war.

There is a limit to what levels of bullshit people will accept, and the Brexit row has gone way past what that level.
Lancaster,
not putting words in your mouth but:
is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the backstop or keep NI tied to the EU because the EU 27 have stuck together and that the UK will not be allowed to do any other type of deal?

is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the deal or remain in the EU and that is what is best for the UK, you could also read this as the UK MUST bow to the will of the EU and accept all there rules?

I ask this because this is what I am interpreting from your posts, and several other avid remainers so just asking for clarification of your stance. I also note your previous posts regarding your stance was leave with deal or remain, but you appear to be driving remain now, is it because you believe there can be not be a deal with the EU and essentially you blame the UK 100% for not being able to make a deal.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:08 pm

KateR wrote:Lancaster,
not putting words in your mouth but:
is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the backstop or keep NI tied to the EU because the EU 27 have stuck together and that the UK will not be allowed to do any other type of deal?

is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the deal or remain in the EU and that is what is best for the UK, you could also read this as the UK MUST bow to the will of the EU and accept all there rules?

I ask this because this is what I am interpreting from your posts, and several other avid remainers so just asking for clarification of your stance. I also note your previous posts regarding your stance was leave with deal or remain, but you appear to be driving remain now, is it because you believe there can be not be a deal with the EU and essentially you blame the UK 100% for not being able to make a deal.
This just about covers it, according to Lancaster there is to be no negotiation, and we have to accept whatever Brussels says.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:11 pm

KateR wrote:Lancaster,
not putting words in your mouth but:
is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the backstop or keep NI tied to the EU because the EU 27 have stuck together and that the UK will not be allowed to do any other type of deal?

is it your contention that the UK should/must accept the deal or remain in the EU and that is what is best for the UK, you could also read this as the UK MUST bow to the will of the EU and accept all there rules?

I ask this because this is what I am interpreting from your posts, and several other avid remainers so just asking for clarification of your stance. I also note your previous posts regarding your stance was leave with deal or remain, but you appear to be driving remain now, is it because you believe there can be not be a deal with the EU and essentially you blame the UK 100% for not being able to make a deal.
None of the above

There is a Brexit deal out there that means the referendum result is respected and the GFA is unaffected.

That has been the reality since 2016 as the prerequisite for any deal (been said a lot on here)

Mays deal sorted it (which is why I backed it, even though its far from ideal)

The big difference between me and a lot of the brexiteers on here is that I don't see membership of the CU or the SM as meaning we are in the EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:11 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I don't believe what SOME people have been saying about the effects of Brexit. It's all supposition.
What I do know for a certainty, is that if we remain we'll be locked into the most undemocratic political system in the world. We'll be tied to a system that takes more and more power away from Westminster, which is exactly the same as taking power away from the people. Locked into a closer monetary policy, that will screw us royally when the next recession hits, and it will hit like night follows day.

I understand the fear, it's not accidental, it's a deliberate ploy used many times by the EU and its supporters. They want people to think they cant survive without them. They tell you often enough until your brainwashed into believing it.
I have a lot more faith in mankind, and especially the British, that we can survive bloody well outside the EU. You're not alone, there are many people across Europe who hate the EU, but fear the consequences of leaving. We are the litmus test, and the EU know it, if we leave and succeed people will have the courage to jump ship, and leave the rats to sink.
Ah, my favourite fallacy. That the EU takes power away from Westminster. As usual, and ever since the leave campaign's wheels were in full motion, this is sprouted as a general statement or complaint about legislation and laws being dictated to the UK. There's never specific examples that particularly upset them; particular laws we adhere to which out of the EU we would hope to redact, standards of industry we would hope to overhaul. Nothing. And then there's the other general statement without qualification.."Take back our borders!"
Also can you explain to me in any kind of detail why choosing to stay in the EU would be worse for our economic stability than say, erm, a no deal brexit?

And the second paragraph is utter nonsense. Support for the EU has grown massively across member states in the last few years. I can't think why.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm

AndyClaret wrote:This just about covers it, according to Lancaster there is to be no negotiation, and we have to accept whatever Brussels says.
It doesn't though does it?

Look, you can go down the Ringo route and just make things up about me if you want, but to a Brexit deal that guarantees the GFA would have my support.

That would mean customs checks down the Irish Sea, us in a CU/SM scenario, or some variation of the above.

All would still mean Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:None of the above

There is a Brexit deal out there that means the referendum result is respected and the GFA is unaffected.

That has been the reality since 2016 as the prerequisite for any deal (been said a lot on here)

Mays deal sorted it (which is why I backed it, even though its far from ideal)

The big difference between me and a lot of the brexiteers on here is that I don't see membership of the CU or the SM as meaning we are in the EU.

Thank you for the clarification
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:17 pm

KateR wrote:Thank you for the clarification
Not a problem

thank you for asking for it!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 pm

The only people saying that there has to be a hard border in the event of a no deal are the EU.

The UK or any part of it staying in the SMCU is not Brexit and leaves us bound by their rules and regulations.

So if there’s a no deal and therefore a hard border it’s because the EU require it not us.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't though does it?

Look, you can go down the Ringo route and just make things up about me if you want, but to a Brexit deal that guarantees the GFA would have my support.

That would mean customs checks down the Irish Sea, us in a CU/SM scenario, or some variation of the above.

All would still mean Brexit.
The irony of the current situation is that if NI had a referendum to stay in the EU's SM and CU they would probably vote to stay in (trade border in the Irish Sea).

The DUP obviously wouldn't be happy but that is democracy. Massive financial investment into NI might sweeten the bitter pill.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:24 pm

Mala591 wrote:The irony of the current situation is that if NI had a referendum to stay in the EU's SM and CU they would probably vote to stay in (trade border in the Irish Sea).

The DUP obviously wouldn't be happy but that is democracy. Massive financial investment into NI might sweeten the bitter pill.
Hey, Scotland calling. Can we have a referendum too?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:29 pm

Mala591 wrote:The irony of the current situation is that if NI had a referendum to stay in the EU's SM and CU they would probably vote to stay in (trade border in the Irish Sea).

The DUP obviously wouldn't be happy but that is democracy. Massive financial investment into NI might sweeten the bitter pill.
Northern Irish business overwhelming back the backstop.

People in Kettering and Wimbourne don't get that, which is why we are in a world of trouble

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:36 pm

Mala591 wrote:The irony of the current situation is that if NI had a referendum to stay in the EU's SM and CU they would probably vote to stay in (trade border in the Irish Sea).

The DUP obviously wouldn't be happy but that is democracy. Massive financial investment into NI might sweeten the bitter pill.

This in reality though is not just about NI, ye it is a stumbling block that appears insurmountable but the end game here is the Union, this was a UK red line from day one and therefore it is not worth debating, as someone put, Scotland next, maybe followed by Wales.

Solves one problem but creates a far bigger one for the UK, however the EU would just love that as it reinforces there policy of fear in regard to, this is what happens if you try to leave the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Northern Irish business overwhelming back the backstop.

People in Kettering and Wimbourne don't get that, which is why we are in a world of trouble
But what happens when the backstop 'comes to an end'? The problem is just the same as today. Best to face up to and solve the problem today rather than kick the can 2/3/4 years down the road.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Moving on from NI discussions and thoughts, assuming we get to the "we can't agree a deal scenario, highly likely and we then go extension, regardless of length but let's just assume 3 months to 2 years.

Can anyone see a deal being reached within the extension? I can't but would like other inputs/thoughts.

Is the extension going to be just to prepare for a GE in reality, hoping to resolve the hung parliament issue and therefore go back to the EU after the GE with some form of will behind the government, including no deal. I am assuming parliament moves one way or another.

Please, we don't need anymore nonsense about lies/dying in a ditch etc. simple question (I hope)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:44 pm

willsclarets wrote:Hey, Scotland calling. Can we have a referendum too?
The situation in Ireland is obviously politically worlds away from the situation in Scotland.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:45 pm

Mala591 wrote:But what happens when the backstop 'comes to an end'? The problem is just the same as today. Best to face up to and solve the problem today rather than kick the can 2/3/4 years down the road.
You assume that there isn't going to be an alternative solution by then.

That could range from NI joining the republic, us rejoining the EU all the way down to the EU collapsing.

Certainly putting it off is a zillion times better than a "No Deal", especially for the economy.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:23 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:That's ******** Lancs.
The sad fact is we are never going to prove this one way or another, because the backstabbing, and back tracking cant be undone. However I think it's clear that the actions of Remainers in Parliament have more than hindered any hope of meaningful negotiations. They could have supported May or Johnson, if they really wanted a 'good' deal, but the support was never forthcoming. They dont want any deal, good or bad, they just want to remain.
I dont need to persuade you of this, it doesn't matter, the majority of the rational world can see it, even if you can't.
I agree 100% wouldn’t be so bad if it was done subtly but it’s so damn obvious, every delay is a war of attrition until eventually I think we’ll end up stopping & leaving will be abandoned or leave in name only & still be attached but with minor adjustments.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I agree 100% wouldn’t be so bad if it was done subtly but it’s so damn obvious, every delay is a war of attrition until eventually I think we’ll end up stopping & leaving will be abandoned or leave in name only & still be attached but with minor adjustments.
It’s all the fault of remainers? Did remainers invent the Good Friday Agreement? Did remainers fritter away the years May had in charge of negotiations? Did remainers persuade the ERG to vote against May’s deal? Did remainers predict this would all be easy?

Do you hold the leave side at all responsible for misleading the public on how this would all go?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:53 pm

Reality not a strong point of Brexiteers in 2016
Reality not a strong point of Brexiteers in 2017
Reality not a strong point of Brexiteers in 2018
Reality not a strong point of Brexiteers in 2019

No suggestion that this is going to change in 2020

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LoveCurryPies » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:01 pm

I'm sick of Brexiteer's lies.

Recent one.... "We grew our own food in the last war, we can do it again".

During the last war, the UK had a population of 48.6 million, that's now grown to 67 million. 20 million more mouths to feed. And we had thousands more farms than we now have. We also shipped in huge quantities of food from the Commonwealth, the USA, Canada etc.

And another lie...."Even Remainers now want to get Brexit done and leave the EU".

Amazes me that they think the EU will be keen to negotiate if we simply walk out of Europe. The negotiators being the very same chinless wonders who couldn't negotiate a deal during the last 3 years.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm

https://www.ft.com/content/30c58758-e91 ... pe=blocked" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£15 billion a year bill to sort out the red tape of a "No Deal" Brexit per year.

Hope you lot that voted for this are looking forward to the big tax rises that pay for this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:26 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You assume that there isn't going to be an alternative solution by then.

That could range from NI joining the republic, us rejoining the EU all the way down to the EU collapsing.

Certainly putting it off is a zillion times better than a "No Deal", especially for the economy.
So, as the 31st October approaches and the EU get spooked that the Benn bill isn't watertight, they could then offer a 2 or 3 year expiry date on the backstop. During those 2 or 3 years the EU commit to working with the UK to develop an electronic alternative to the backstop (which had been fully tested by successful pilot projects).

In the event of no acceptable solution being developed the UK can then leave without a deal.

...and so we have a solution to the current impasse...

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:35 pm

Mala591 wrote:So, as the 31st October approaches and the EU get spooked that the Benn bill isn't watertight, they could then offer a 2 or 3 year expiry date on the backstop. During those 2 or 3 years the EU commit to working with the UK to develop an electronic alternative to the backstop (which had been fully tested by successful pilot projects).

In the event of no acceptable solution being developed the UK can then leave without a deal.

...and so we have a solution to the current impasse...
How does that safeguard the GFA if we leave without a deal in two years and the tech still isn't available?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:11 pm

Mala591 wrote:The irony of the current situation is that if NI had a referendum to stay in the EU's SM and CU they would probably vote to stay in (trade border in the Irish Sea).

The DUP obviously wouldn't be happy but that is democracy. Massive financial investment into NI might sweeten the bitter pill.
I would probably agree with that. Though a lot of Unionists would hate it, and NI is a tinderbox at the best of times, so it may set off just the kind of upset people predict with leaving the customs union.

That’s the problem for NI, there is no status quo (and no, there isn’t, before the People’s Revote jump into this comment).

I don’t think NI would vote to leave the UK (they know we would be voting to join a country we would be about to economically destroy as a consequence, which is what the Tories would surely do in that situation, shipping goods to Cherbourg isn’t realistic and most demand comes from the UK).

But NI could vote to stay in the UK but inside the Customs Union with a customs border at the port. I also think Johnson may go for that once he has a majority.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:17 pm

Oh my oh my.
I go fishing for 48 hrs and it’s all happening.
Living in a bivvy away from the world was bliss, with only water in front of you and fish to outwit.

It’s all going off.

Going to get interesting.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:22 pm

AndrewJB wrote:It’s all the fault of remainers? Did remainers invent the Good Friday Agreement? Did remainers fritter away the years May had in charge of negotiations? Did remainers persuade the ERG to vote against May’s deal? Did remainers predict this would all be easy?

Do you hold the leave side at all responsible for misleading the public on how this would all go?
In a normal set of circumstances none of the factors mentioned should be of any relevance not to the extent of any impact, the Irish question can easily be solved with mutual cooperation from both sides by circumventing the GFA with unification with a no deal brexit, I’m pretty sure it will be high up on Sinn Féin’s agenda the popularity to do that is on the increase anyhow even amongst some Ulster’s quarters, domestic politics is a completely different beast regarding TM & the ERGs reluctance to support the proposed deal, in a nutshell I’m not quite sure how leave can be held to account as the solutions are there.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Northern Irish business overwhelming back the backstop.

People in Kettering and Wimbourne don't get that, which is why we are in a world of trouble
What people in Kettering and Wimborne (wherever that is) will get is that the backstop is a crazy, crazy idea. This last 24 hours has proven beyond all doubt that it was a trap (admittedly a few slow witted types still don’t see this).

A Northern Ireland only backstop is very different. The DUP blocked it when the EU originally proposed it. But, if it is temporary and there is a clear protocol for Stormont and Dublin to remove it, it might fly.

The VAT border though would be fraught with trouble. Every parcel moving between NI and Britain could be subject to different VAT and thus needs tracking. Without doubt it would lever apart NI from the UK.

Our existing VAT borders (e.g. at Heathrow Worldwide Distribution Centre) process millions of items per day and it is carnage.

I am slowly starting to wonder if no deal is indeed the best option and if I have been naive to prefer a deal. The brief chaos would force minds to meet and agree solutions that hitherto they are unwilling to do. A no deal election may well let the public declare which one they want, no deal or a Labour referendum to revoke.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:27 pm

If Borris were to get a deal what exactly can he campaign on?

As it currently stands it's "People v Parliament", but once we leave what next?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by bobinho » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:30 pm

AndrewJB wrote:It’s all the fault of remainers? Did remainers invent the Good Friday Agreement? Did remainers fritter away the years May had in charge of negotiations? Did remainers persuade the ERG to vote against May’s deal? Did remainers predict this would all be easy?

Do you hold the leave side at all responsible for misleading the public on how this would all go?
May WAS a remainer...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:35 pm

bobinho wrote:May WAS a remainer...
Exactly, I’m surprised she was even mentioned in that context it’s a hardly a persuasive argument to reinforce & somehow imply leave was responsible for a remainer spending a age negotiating, it’s obvious the end result will be square root of bugger all.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:39 pm

Spijed wrote:If Borris were to get a deal what exactly can he campaign on?

As it currently stands it's "People v Parliament", but once we leave what next?
If BJ gets a deal then parliament has to ratify it so a lot depends on what happens at that point

Assuming parliament do ratify it then surely JC & Co will be voting for a no confidence in the government, which leads me to an interesting point for me:

Can BJ bring a motion of no confidence in Government before parliament? Yes it probably has never been done but I don't know, can he legally introduce it to force a GE?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:49 pm

bobinho wrote:May WAS a remainer...
If she was, how gullible does that make Johnson for serving in her cabinet? How useless does that make the Tory Party for making her leader?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:27 pm

Spijed wrote:If Borris were to get a deal what exactly can he campaign on?

As it currently stands it's "People v Parliament", but once we leave what next?
Sorting phase 2 with a ftd. That what the fuss has been about with the trapstop i e. to give us a level playing field in the trade discussions with May we had no cards and would be held to ransom never get away from the EU, which May was happy with.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:37 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:In a normal set of circumstances none of the factors mentioned should be of any relevance not to the extent of any impact, the Irish question can easily be solved with mutual cooperation from both sides by circumventing the GFA with unification with a no deal brexit, I’m pretty sure it will be high up on Sinn Féin’s agenda the popularity to do that is on the increase anyhow even amongst some Ulster’s quarters, domestic politics is a completely different beast regarding TM & the ERGs reluctance to support the proposed deal, in a nutshell I’m not quite sure how leave can be held to account as the solutions are there.
Over 100 years of problems in Ireland can now ‘easily be solved’ :lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:57 pm

Looking like the EU may offer an extension to June when Johnson sends his letter in eleven days time.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:59 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:...That’s the problem for NI, there is no status quo (and no, there isn’t, before the People’s Revote jump into this comment)...
:lol: :lol:

The initial statement may or may not be true (depends on your definition of “status quo”, I suppose).

The bit in brackets is just desperate though, and clearly shows that Crosspool doesn’t believe his own words.

I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again, I have no real beef with the likes of Jakub, Ringo and Colburn, who obviously believe the things they come out with, but folk like Crosspool (and by extension, Johnson, JRM et al) who deliberately come out with stuff they know is wrong, just to try to persuade folk to vote against their own interests, really boil my ****.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by thatdberight » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:02 pm

KateR wrote:
Can BJ bring a motion of no confidence in Government before parliament? Yes it probably has never been done but I don't know, can he legally introduce it to force a GE?
He wouldn't win it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:07 pm

martin_p wrote:Looking like the EU may offer an extension to June when Johnson sends his letter in eleven days time.
General election 5th May 2022

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by LoveCurryPies » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:08 pm

Parliament has just been prorogued again.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:09 pm

willsclarets wrote:Ah, my favourite fallacy. That the EU takes power away from Westminster. As usual, and ever since the leave campaign's wheels were in full motion, this is sprouted as a general statement or complaint about legislation and laws being dictated to the UK. There's never specific examples that particularly upset them; particular laws we adhere to which out of the EU we would hope to redact, standards of industry we would hope to overhaul. Nothing. And then there's the other general statement without qualification.."Take back our borders!"
Also can you explain to me in any kind of detail why choosing to stay in the EU would be worse for our economic stability than say, erm, a no deal brexit?

And the second paragraph is utter nonsense. Support for the EU has grown massively across member states in the last few years. I can't think why.
I've explained before, many times, that too many of the member states are up **** creek, and if we are still in the EU come the next recession and theres always another recession, it will be a mill stone around our necks. We need to be free to take whatever steps are necessary to protect our economy. We wont be free to act unilaterally, to take those necessary steps.
That's all important, but the main issue has nothing to do with finances, long term or short term, it's about democracy, and the EU isnt, and never has been a democracy. You, and so many remainers seem to think that democracy is a small price to pay, if it means you can be solvent, or make money. I disagree completely. I dont think we will be worse off outside the EU, but even if I did, it wouldnt change my opinion on wanting to leave. People all over the world, going back centuries, have paid the ultimate price for freedom, to live in a democracy, and yet people lucky enough to have been born into such a society, are willing to sell it for 30 pieces of silver.
I just dont get it.
Support for the EU isnt increasing, many Europeans see it just as I do, an undemocratic body inflating it's own importance at the expense of its citizens, but just like you they live in this instilled fear of the consequences of leaving.
If Brexit is a success we will just be the first to pull out.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:28 pm

Meanwhile back in the real world......
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:35 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Meanwhile back in the real world......
As a leaver that worries me. We need a deal. The remain alliance in cohoots with the EU appear to think that they can get another referundum or even revoke. It's all gonna end nasty at this rate.

The EU surely cannot dictate to the UK like it is trying and the more it tries the more it risks no deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:37 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Meanwhile back in the real world......
That’s far too close to be in any way conclusive, the margin of error in opinion polls is greater than 2%.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:40 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: Support for the EU isnt increasing, many Europeans see it just as I do, an undemocratic body inflating it's own importance at the expense of its citizens, but just like you they live in this instilled fear of the consequences of leaving.
If Brexit is a success we will just be the first to pull out.
Ok where's your evidence? Or is this just another vague suspicion? From an Independent article in April this year:


Support for remaining in the EU stands at well over 80 per cent in the majority of member states, a new continent-wide poll has found – with Britain’s political crisis apparently a poor advert for leaving.

The survey by Kantar asked people how they would vote in an in-out referendum and found that Luxembourg (94 per cent), Portugal (92 per cent), Ireland (91 per cent), and the Netherlands (91 per cent) had the highest support for EU membership out of the 28 countries in the bloc.

Apart from the UK the highest level of support for leaving was in the Czech Republic, where 66 per cent supported Remain and 34 per cent Leave. Italy was close behind as the next most Eurosceptic country, with 72 per cent Remain and 28 per cent Leave. Austria and France were the third and fourth most Eurosceptic.

The poll generally shows substantial moves in favour of EU membership. In Estonia Remain has broadened the gap by 12 per cent since the last poll in September, while Italy’s gap has widened by 14 per cent.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:49 pm

willsclarets wrote:Ok where's your evidence? Or is this just another vague suspicion? From an Independent article in April this year:


Support for remaining in the EU stands at well over 80 per cent in the majority of member states, a new continent-wide poll has found – with Britain’s political crisis apparently a poor advert for leaving.

The survey by Kantar asked people how they would vote in an in-out referendum and found that Luxembourg (94 per cent), Portugal (92 per cent), Ireland (91 per cent), and the Netherlands (91 per cent) had the highest support for EU membership out of the 28 countries in the bloc.

Apart from the UK the highest level of support for leaving was in the Czech Republic, where 66 per cent supported Remain and 34 per cent Leave. Italy was close behind as the next most Eurosceptic country, with 72 per cent Remain and 28 per cent Leave. Austria and France were the third and fourth most Eurosceptic.

The poll generally shows substantial moves in favour of EU membership. In Estonia Remain has broadened the gap by 12 per cent since the last poll in September, while Italy’s gap has widened by 14 per cent.
Colburn doesn’t do evidence. He thinks it’s all made up. He just uses “common sense”, which appears to consist of starting with your conclusions and ignoring anything that contradicts them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:22 pm

willsclarets wrote:Ok where's your evidence? Or is this just another vague suspicion? From an Independent article in April this year:


Support for remaining in the EU stands at well over 80 per cent in the majority of member states, a new continent-wide poll has found – with Britain’s political crisis apparently a poor advert for leaving.

The survey by Kantar asked people how they would vote in an in-out referendum and found that Luxembourg (94 per cent), Portugal (92 per cent), Ireland (91 per cent), and the Netherlands (91 per cent) had the highest support for EU membership out of the 28 countries in the bloc.

Apart from the UK the highest level of support for leaving was in the Czech Republic, where 66 per cent supported Remain and 34 per cent Leave. Italy was close behind as the next most Eurosceptic country, with 72 per cent Remain and 28 per cent Leave. Austria and France were the third and fourth most Eurosceptic.

The poll generally shows substantial moves in favour of EU membership. In Estonia Remain has broadened the gap by 12 per cent since the last poll in September, while Italy’s gap has widened by 14 per cent.
Hi wills, good to be reminded of this EU poll. I believe it supports a view that the EU will be better off with the UK outside, as a friend and not a member. Majority of other member states seem to be more positive with this prospect.

So, a question for remainers: should we revoke Art 50 and make the popularity of the EU within the other 27 member states decline?

Or, should we be their friend and leave, graciously?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Last few days I've heard politicians say of the Good Friday Agreement, it's a multi-party agreement and it's an international agreement. So, it's got me wondering, was the EU a signatory to GFA? Who were the other bodies involved? I recall a US Senator chairing the negotiations, if this was the case, did the US also sign GFA?

And, I guess, another question: what does GFA say about the NI/RoI border? What does it say of customs posts and other "infrastructure" stuff?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:38 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Last few days I've heard politicians say of the Good Friday Agreement, it's a multi-party agreement and it's an international agreement. So, it's got me wondering, was the EU a signatory to GFA? Who were the other bodies involved? I recall a US Senator chairing the negotiations, if this was the case, did the US also sign GFA?

And, I guess, another question: what does GFA say about the NI/RoI border? What does it say of customs posts and other "infrastructure" stuff?
Have a read its only 35 pages so shorter than some of your posts!!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -agreement

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