Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[AndrewJB]

We shouldn't be surprised by Verhofstadts antics.

He clearly hate national sovereignty. He despises the nation state. He's evangelically convinced that self determination is something to be crushed.

He dangerous attitude is summed up at the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

When hysteria riddled, Little Europeaner extremists claim to have "the final remedy" they should be opposed by every right minded democrat in Europe.

Do you know who wrote those words? Do you know when those words were written? When you recall the context in which European integration was conceived (two destructive world wars), can those words make sense to you? Otherwise you're no different to those people who pluck a few words from the Koran and claim "Islam is evil"

Personally I'm glad this country has people like Verhofstadt to stand up for us in the face of our authoritarian government. We see things differently, you and I.

[AndrewJB]

See that is where we differ. ‘Sources’ within Downing Street to me does not equate to Boris Johnson. The Tory party has been leaking like a sieve since Thatcher. Unnamed sources from Downing Street are creating smoke, that remain can dance through leaving them to get on with the real business behind the scenes. It disappears as quickly as it appears like all hot air, in the meantime remain stay away from issues that could play well domestically as we head towards an election. Instead they watch the ‘united’ parliament unable to even agree who should lead them, because each one recognises the other is not fit for purpose. Corbyn is trying desperately to divert attention from his own party, because Had Parliament not been recalled civil war would have broken out at the Labour Party conference. As for the Liberal one trick pony outfit...

If Corbin was honest to his views and beliefs I’d be voting Labour myself... but his party is a hornets nest in waiting and is in no way ready to govern.

I was referring to Johnson's direct authoritarian actions and words. Perhaps Bercow is deploying a smoke screen himself? Triggering gammon.

This was Corbyn today, trying to "divert attention from his own party" announcing policies to tackle inequality, and give young people hope for the future: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ther-upset" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-eur ... k-ireland/

Cheers. That doesn't quite tally with other articles I've read. There's a lot of emphasis on the digital stuff but, even though they've included a picture of the trucks lining up at the border post, they don't seem to have mentioned it in the article.

This is a similar article from about the same time which makes more mention of the physical infrastructure.
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... ay-sweden/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Devils_Advocate]

https://twitter.com/BorderIrish/status/ ... 51776?s=19

[Lancasterclaret]

This is pretty good on the Swiss Border

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hWQ0T10v6Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Do you know who wrote those words? Do you know when those words were written? When you recall the context in which European integration was conceived (two destructive world wars), can those words make sense to you? Otherwise you're no different to those people who pluck a few words from the Koran and claim "Islam is evil"

Personally I'm glad this country has people like Verhofstadt to stand up for us in the face of our authoritarian government. We see things differently, you and I.

We did this a few years ago when it turned out that Ringo was copy/pasting opinion pieces and pretending they were his own. We got Leo McKinstry's view as conveyed by Ringo.

[summitclaret]

Do you know who wrote those words? Do you know when those words were written? When you recall the context in which European integration was conceived (two destructive world wars), can those words make sense to you? Otherwise you're no different to those people who pluck a few words from the Koran and claim "Islam is evil"

Personally I'm glad this country has people like Verhofstadt to stand up for us in the face of our authoritarian government. We see things differently, you and I.

Authoritarian - that's hilarious. It's a minority one. If you don't like it you know what to do. GV is very near the top of my can't stand list and he is even above Sourby and Grieve the ultimate manifesto deniers.

[willsclarets]

It won't, because the EU doesn't want it badly enough. The EU would like a free trade deal, but only if they get paid loads of money and if the deal is bound up with all sorts of caveats and conditions. As Lancaster has frequently pointed out, they are trying to make sure that being outside the EU isn't as good as (or is worse than) being in it.

If the UK was trying to negotiate a free trade deal with the USA and it depended on paying a huge annual fee and the USA having overriding say over what happens in part of the country, the deal would be rejected out of hand. This EU deal or proposed deal is playing by different rules. Some think the price is worth paying, others don't.

But ultimately, the EU wants a lot more than the any of the political parties (not just the Tories) in the UK are willing to pay. It's unlikely that they will demand less after Brexit, if only because they are politicians and won't want to appear to lose face.

These sound like negotiating positions that would facilitate the easiest trade deal in history to me.

[dsr]

Do you know who wrote those words? Do you know when those words were written? When you recall the context in which European integration was conceived (two destructive world wars), can those words make sense to you? Otherwise you're no different to those people who pluck a few words from the Koran and claim "Islam is evil"

Personally I'm glad this country has people like Verhofstadt to stand up for us in the face of our authoritarian government. We see things differently, you and I.

Why do we need the EU to stand up against an "authoritarian" government? Why don't we just have a general election? It will be a long time before I am convinced that a control for overseas is a better system than democracy.

[dsr]

These sound like negotiating positions that would facilitate the easiest trade deal in history to me.

To be fair, the Remain side was a lot more realistic about the EU's likelihood of being friendly and co-operative. Lancaster told us from an early stage that the EU wouldn't play ball, because to them the political aspects, especially the loss of power, would outweigh for them the economic aspects. Brexiters were a lot more optimistic.

[KateR]

To be fair, the Remain side was a lot more realistic about the EU's likelihood of being friendly and co-operative. Lancaster told us from an early stage that the EU wouldn't play ball, because to them the political aspects, especially the loss of power, would outweigh for them the economic aspects. Brexiters were a lot more optimistic.

Amen

[aggi]

Rumours that part of the reason for this short prorogation was to possibly bring May's bill back.

It may well be that's people putting together 2 and 2 and getting 5 though.

[willsclarets]

To be fair, the Remain side was a lot more realistic about the EU's likelihood of being friendly and co-operative. Lancaster told us from an early stage that the EU wouldn't play ball, because to them the political aspects, especially the loss of power, would outweigh for them the economic aspects. Brexiters were a lot more optimistic.

If you're not a member of the golf club, suddenly it's a lot more expensive to play a round. Besides political posturing I find the word "friendliness" a strange one in this context. It's simply about protecting the integrity of the "club" and its members. You can still play, but it'll cost you.

[Lancasterclaret]

To be fair, the Remain side was a lot more realistic about the EU's likelihood of being friendly and co-operative. Lancaster told us from an early stage that the EU wouldn't play ball, because to them the political aspects, especially the loss of power, would outweigh for them the economic aspects. Brexiters were a lot more optimistic.

And that is your problem right there.

I explained reality to you.

You didn't want to accept it.

The EU cannot compromise on its founding freedoms, which is something you've refused to accept from Day One.

This whole thread is basically

Brexiteers - why can't we have our cake and eat it?

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers -

Brexiteers - I don't accept any of that, so you'll have to tell me again why we can't have our cake and eat it.

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers-

Brexiteers- SHUT UP REMOANER TRAITORS. WE'D HAVE A GREAT DEAL IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU LOT

[keith1879]

And that is your problem right there.

I explained reality to you.

You didn't want to accept it.

The EU cannot compromise on its founding freedoms, which is something you've refused to accept from Day One.

This whole thread is basically

Brexiteers - why can't we have our cake and eat it?

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers -

Brexiteers - I don't accept any of that, so you'll have to tell me again why we can't have our cake and eat it.

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers-

Brexiteers- SHUT UP REMOANER TRAITORS. WE'D HAVE A GREAT DEAL IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU LOT

One reason why this really rings true is that the Brexiters keep insisting on having the last word ......

[summitclaret]

Is reality finally hitting home for Ireland ? Fingers crossed if you are a leaver and/or a democrat.

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson ... s-11832073" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KateR]

If you're not a member of the golf club, suddenly it's a lot more expensive to play a round. Besides political posturing I find the word "friendliness" a strange one in this context. It's simply about protecting the integrity of the "club" and its members. You can still play, but it'll cost you.

so is this really meant to be a good analogy, I mean really?

[Lancasterclaret]

Is reality finally hitting home for Ireland ? Fingers crossed if you are a leaver and/or a democrat.

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson ... s-11832073" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Too early to read anything into it.

Its a positive that they haven't decided there is no point continuing though.

But it always falls apart when the UK PM talks to the DUP/ERG when it comes to any compromises.

(essentially its an customs border in the Irish sea)

[KateR]

Too early to read anything into it.

Its a positive that they haven't decided there is no point continuing though.

But it always falls apart when the UK PM talks to the DUP/ERG when it comes to any compromises.

(essentially its an customs border in the Irish sea)

Let's hope it leads to something in the near term that is acceptable to the EU & the UK, by which I mean 2019 not by Oct 31.

[CombatClaret]

Super, you have solved all things, you have rumbled the people in favor of leave, I believe this is a great leap forward and clearly LibDems will call for a GE immediately because this proves without a shadow of doubt that they were, just like you and a few others on here, right all along.

Bring it on I say

Why would they or anyone want a party political general election to resolve the binary cross party referendum issue of Brexit? Confirmatory referendum, bring it on I say.

[Damo]

And that is your problem right there.

I explained reality to you.

You didn't want to accept it.

The EU cannot compromise on its founding freedoms, which is something you've refused to accept from Day One.

We have accepted it. Its remainers who cannot accept it.
Now they are inventing new rules to force our prime minister to ask for a pointless extension.

The number of people in favour of no deal is growing by the day

[Greenmile]

...The number of people in favour of no deal is growing by the day

Source?

[KateR]

Why would they or anyone want a party political general election to resolve the binary cross party referendum issue of Brexit? Confirmatory referendum, bring it on I say.

Love it

Yes the opposition don't want a GE because they are afraid of losing, so let's change it in to something else, I know let's have another referendum, we think we have another chance of winning that. I mean come on we don't agree with the results of the last referendum so let's keep having one until we get the answer we want, really, are you a Scottish nationalist by the way?

[dsr]

And that is your problem right there.

I explained reality to you.

You didn't want to accept it.

The EU cannot compromise on its founding freedoms, which is something you've refused to accept from Day One.

This whole thread is basically

Brexiteers - why can't we have our cake and eat it?

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers -

Brexiteers - I don't accept any of that, so you'll have to tell me again why we can't have our cake and eat it.

Remainers - this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this, this is why, and this, and that, and this, and that, and this and this is quite important as well

Brexiteers -

Remainers-

Brexiteers- SHUT UP REMOANER TRAITORS. WE'D HAVE A GREAT DEAL IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU LOT

Ignoring all the waffle, that has always been the issue and that is why we haven't been able to get a sensible compromise. To the EU, politics and political power is the be all and end all and they don't much care about the money. To the UK, although the decision to leave was political, the furutre relationship is more about the money - and to people like you, it's all about the money - and so we're trying to negotiate an economic deal and they are trying to negotiate a political deal.

So the question is, do we accept that we must have this money and the political position is irrelevant? Or do we have a price beyond which we cannot go? Ardent Remainers tend to chase the cash.

[AndrewJB]

To be fair, the Remain side was a lot more realistic about the EU's likelihood of being friendly and co-operative. Lancaster told us from an early stage that the EU wouldn't play ball, because to them the political aspects, especially the loss of power, would outweigh for them the economic aspects. Brexiters were a lot more optimistic.

The promises made by leave as to how easy and straightforward this would be, and that we held all the cards, were pie in the sky. This was pointed out many times during and since the referendum - and now shown to be true. The fault doesn't lie with the EU, who have been consistent all along, but with the unrealistic expectations set by leavers. Even the absurd idea that we could somehow get the EU to back down on a substantial point or another by threatening them with a no deal brexit has been shown to be false. Three years, and we are where? Had the Green Party, or Labour, or the LibDems, or even the SNP negotiated this, I'd wager a fair whack we'd already be out. It wouldn't be the Brexit of your dreams, but we'd be out, and that's far better than this government has managed.

[dsr]

It wouldn't be the Brexit of your dreams, but we'd be out, and that's far better than this government has managed.

Being out on May's terms would not be better than being in. If we are in, we can keep trying to get out. If we were on the EU/May terms, then we would de facto be as if we were in, and we would no longer have a get-out clause. Remainers like you obviously think that a deal which is nominally out but has the characteristics of being in is good. Brexiters don't.

[RingoMcCartney]

One reason why this really rings true is that the Brexiters keep insisting on having the last word ......

And that word is -




















Democracy.

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you have a recurring appointment in your phone calendar reminding you to keep posting this?

Tell me something Marty.

When it comes to what I can , and cannot , post on this message board.


Who was it that actually made you God?

[willsclarets]

so is this really meant to be a good analogy, I mean really?

It works absolutely fine for the principle point I was making, and you know full well it wasn't an analogy for the intricacies of Brexit as a whole. All analogies are reductive, and do me a favour and point out where it falls down before jumping on your high horse.

[RingoMcCartney]

I see you conveniently ignored the bit where he highlighted we were risking bringing disaster upon th country, economy and citizens. But that bit isn't important to you is it?

Where as the sovereignty hating , self determination loathing, Little Europeaner, Guy Verhofstadt, conveniently ignores the votes of 17,421,228 British People, in the largest expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

[AndrewJB]

Being out on May's terms would not be better than being in. If we are in, we can keep trying to get out. If we were on the EU/May terms, then we would de facto be as if we were in, and we would no longer have a get-out clause. Remainers like you obviously think that a deal which is nominally out but has the characteristics of being in is good. Brexiters don't.

So those people who voted to leave the EU, but wanted to remain close to the EU economically aren't "real" brexiters in your opinion? Perhaps had they known it would end like this they might have voted differently? Or might next time.

May's deal was far too extreme for the likes of me, but it was only the backstop surely that you could have objected to? And even in that it was only until a solution could be found for the border, and then we'd be out - and we're apparently very close to that solution, so maybe this was a ship your side should have sailed on?

Out of the CAP, Fisheries, ECJ, single market, customs union, and free movement. If there was more than the backstop as a problem, what was it?

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you know who wrote those words? Do you know when those words were written? When you recall the context in which European integration was conceived (two destructive world wars), can those words make sense to you? Otherwise you're no different to those people who pluck a few words from the Koran and claim "Islam is evil"

Personally I'm glad this country has people like Verhofstadt to stand up for us in the face of our authoritarian government. We see things differently, you and I.

Stop trying to place the "context" game

The EU uses the statement

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”


To justify its crushing of national sovereignty and independence in its aggressive drive to a federal europe with mission creep expansionist empire building , that only the other week the , near hysteria driven , Verhofstadt, was proudly boasting of , at the illiberal anti Democrats conference.

And I agree 100 % we do indeed, " see things differently you and I"

I believe that referendum results should actually be implemented.


I'm a bit old fashioned like that.

[summitclaret]

Why would they or anyone want a party political general election to resolve the binary cross party referendum issue of Brexit? Confirmatory referendum, bring it on I say.

What do you want to confirm? That you don't like the result of the last one. It's a ridiculous proposition. The gov can't govern. The remain alliance only agree on 1 thing - stopping no deal. Are you expecting that lot to govern for 9 months in the meantime?

A GE is essential now, but Labour and the newly independents and the Sourby lot don't want one even after 31 Oct. I wonder why?

If you want another ref then vote labour in the GE

If you want to revoke then vote LD

If you want to leave with a deal if we can get one vote Tory.

If you just want to leave vote BP if you think lab or the LD might win in your seat.

If you want to waste your vote then vote for change uk.

[RingoMcCartney]

This whole thread is basically

Brexiteers - democracy means sometimes you lose

Remoaners- I'm not having it.

[TheFamilyCat]

Where as the sovereignty hating , self determination loathing, Little Europeaner, Guy Verhofstadt, conveniently ignores the votes of 17,421,228 British People, in the largest expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed.

He's not ignoring anyone, another poor attempt at swerving the question.

Now about this economic disaster for the country and its citizens. Happy with that are you?

Ps I know which of the two parts of this response you will focus on.

[Lowbankclaret]

Interesting to watch brexbox 10.
The EU misplaced/ lost/. Cannot account for 2.6 billion euros in 2018. Slightly worse than 2017 when it was 2.4 billion euros.

In the event of leaving with a deal we could be liable to bailing out the EU to the sum of 500 billion even if we leave if it goes tits up.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Look at my Ringo.
Doesn’t seem like long ago he was struggling to work out how the block function worked on here.
Now he’s using bold fonts.

My little Ringsy continues to grow up.

[Lowbankclaret]

Also one of the ME-p’s has a friend of Cummings, that’s an interest bit worth listening to.

[martin_p]

We have accepted it. Its remainers who cannot accept it.
Now they are inventing new rules to force our prime minister to ask for a pointless extension.

If there has been genuine progress between Johnson and Varadkar today it very much would have a point.

[martin_p]

Tell me something Marty.

When it comes to what I can , and cannot , post on this message board.


Who was it that actually made you God?

Didn’t say you couldn’t, asked you a question.

[Lowbankclaret]

So those people who voted to leave the EU, but wanted to remain close to the EU economically aren't "real" brexiters in your opinion? Perhaps had they known it would end like this they might have voted differently? Or might next time.

May's deal was far too extreme for the likes of me, but it was only the backstop surely that you could have objected to? And even in that it was only until a solution could be found for the border, and then we'd be out - and we're apparently very close to that solution, so maybe this was a ship your side should have sailed on?

Out of the CAP, Fisheries, ECJ, single market, customs union, and free movement. If there was more than the backstop as a problem, what was it?

Want him brexbox 10.

The backstop kept us in the EU.

What surprises me is the remainers in parliament missed this and voted against it.

If they had accepted May’s deal we would have been stuck in the EU for years.

[RingoMcCartney]

He's not ignoring anyone, another poor attempt at swerving the question.

Now about this economic disaster for the country and its citizens. Happy with that are you?

Ps I know which of the two parts of this response you will focus on.

Economic disaster!!!???


"A vote to Leave would lead to the Nissan plant in sunderland closing" - Remoaners and their project fear prior to the 2016 Peoples Vote


Sunderland and the country votes Leave anyway.


Fast forward to 2019

Today , production of the new Nissan Juke, aimed at the European market began and the new cars rolled of the production line



Lies lies lies.

How embarrassed about that are you!





Nissan begins manufacturing new Juke model at Sunderland plant - Chronicle Live
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... w-17063387" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Ok, tell me what terms we’re leaving the EU on if there’s no Brexit uncertainty.

The uncertainty is caused by still Remaining, not Brexit.


Leave and the uncertainty ends.


Leave means out of the CU, SM, ECJ and ending free movement of People.

[martin_p]

Interesting to watch brexbox 10.
The EU misplaced/ lost/. Cannot account for 2.6 billion euros in 2018. Slightly worse than 2017 when it was 2.4 billion euros.

In the event of leaving with a deal we could be liable to bailing out the EU to the sum of 500 billion even if we leave if it goes tits up.

UK government departments very rarely balance the books.

[martin_p]

The uncertainty is caused by still Remaining, not Brexit.


Leave and the uncertainty ends.


Leave means out of the CU, SM, ECJ and ending free movement of People.

Ok, tell me the terms of the deal then. Are we leaving with a deal? No deal?

[Spijed]

Leave means out of the CU, SM, ECJ and ending free movement of People.

Depends how close to May's deal we leave with.

[Spijed]

Pat Leahy
✔
@PatLeahyIT
So am hearing that there has been very significant movement from British side on the customs issue in the Johnson-Varadkar talks. Not clear on detail and not clear what concessions expected in return. But if what I hear is correct, it changes the picture substantially.

[aggi]

Economic disaster!!!???


"A vote to Leave would lead to the Nissan plant in sunderland closing" - Remoaners and their project fear prior to the 2016 Peoples Vote


Sunderland and the country votes Leave anyway.


Fast forward to 2019

Today , production of the new Nissan Juke, aimed at the European market began and the new cars rolled of the production line



Lies lies lies.

How embarrassed about that are you!





Nissan begins manufacturing new Juke model at Sunderland plant - Chronicle Live
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... w-17063387" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crowing about Nissan today isn't really the strongest argument if you're supporting the possibility of No Deal:

Nissan's European chairman, Gianluca de Ficchy
The only message I can [give] is that if a no-deal will be associated with the application of 10% duties under the WTO rules, that will create an enormous problem for the overall European activities of Nissan Europe.

"If we will have to sustain 10% export duties on the vehicles that we export from UK to EU, knowing that those vehicles represent 70% of total production, the overall business model won't be sustainable.

[RingoMcCartney]

Crowing about Nissan today isn't really the strongest argument if you're supporting the possibility of No Deal:

Nissan's European chairman, Gianluca de Ficchy
The only message I can [give] is that if a no-deal will be associated with the application of 10% duties under the WTO rules, that will create an enormous problem for the overall European activities of Nissan Europe.

"If we will have to sustain 10% export duties on the vehicles that we export from UK to EU, knowing that those vehicles represent 70% of total production, the overall business model won't be sustainable.

According to little Europeaners like you, the Sunderland Nissan plant should be shut by now!

How embarrassing for you all.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ok, tell me the terms of the deal then. Are we leaving with a deal? No deal?

I've given you my answer.

It's my final answer.

Now. Whether you accept that it's my final answer is entirely upto you. However, given your unwillingness to accept the referendum result, I wont hold my breath Marty.