martin_p wrote:Ok, tell me what terms we’re leaving the EU on if there’s no Brexit uncertainty.
You haven’t answered the question I asked (because it will demonstrate uncertainty Brexit).RingoMcCartney wrote:I've given you my answer.
It's my final answer.
Now. Whether you accept that it's my final answer is entirely upto you. However, given your unwillingness to accept the referendum result, I wont hold my breath Marty.
Greenmile wrote:Source?
Well done at ignoring what the European Head of Nissan is saying.RingoMcCartney wrote:According to little Europeaners like you, the Sunderland Nissan plant should be shut by now!
How embarrassing for you all.
I agree a strong federal Europe is good for mainland Europe, but not for us. We fell into Europe when the country was on its arse and we’ve been paying for it ever since. Heath new the money had run out... they left Callahan a note to say as much. Being part of the common market was needed AT THAT TIME... while it is still preferable to most people it is certainly not beyond questioning now. Like Churchill... I’m all for a strong federal Europe, also like Churchill I don’t see that we necessarily need to be in the middle of it.Devils_Advocate wrote:Do you understand the full context of the quote in terms of the full content and the point in history? I think it contains some very good thinking as a reflection piece of how we went wrong to allow a second great war materialise following the lessons we should have learned from the first.
The fact that some of the ideas have proved a cornerstone for providing almost blanket peace and stability within Europe is something to be thankful for
Also I replied a few times to Ringo when he has highlighted this quote pointing out its full context which he always conveniently managed to avoid responding to
https://federalunion.org.uk/the-ending-of-armageddon/
I want to confirm the 98.6% of polls this year that indicate Britain is now a majority remain country.summitclaret wrote:What do you want to confirm?
Or alternatively, something that isn’t two months old.Damo wrote:
Everyone who sits at the top of the table are Federalists. They are selected for that very reason, not by you and me, but by other Federalists. The MEPs can then vote for who they want, and if they dont like any, they can replace them with another bunch of Federalists.aggi wrote:Or, people believe that an EU that has elections, has a council selected by democratically elected leaders, etc. is democratic.
Please try and explain exactly why you don't think the EU is democratic. What specific elements do you have issues with?
It’s ok to lose billions then.martin_p wrote:UK government departments very rarely balance the books.
willsclarets wrote:It works absolutely fine for the principle point I was making, and you know full well it wasn't an analogy for the intricacies of Brexit as a whole. All analogies are reductive, and do me a favour and point out where it falls down before jumping on your high horse.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/busi ... rofit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;aggi wrote:Crowing about Nissan today isn't really the strongest argument if you're supporting the possibility of No Deal:
Nissan's European chairman, Gianluca de Ficchy
The only message I can [give] is that if a no-deal will be associated with the application of 10% duties under the WTO rules, that will create an enormous problem for the overall European activities of Nissan Europe.
"If we will have to sustain 10% export duties on the vehicles that we export from UK to EU, knowing that those vehicles represent 70% of total production, the overall business model won't be sustainable.
Nissan has much bigger problems than Brexit to worry about, it will cause an issue but it won't even be the final nail in the coffin for it.Nissan made clearer on Thursday the extent of its problems, after it disclosed a dramatic plunge in its financial results.
Nissan said its profit fell to 6.4 billion yen, or $59 million, in the April-to-June period from 115.8 billion yen during the same time last year. Its revenue fell nearly 13 percent.
But it isn't matched by the numbers who want to sack the whole thing off.Damo wrote:We have accepted it. Its remainers who cannot accept it.
Now they are inventing new rules to force our prime minister to ask for a pointless extension.
The number of people in favour of no deal is growing by the day
What you're saying, and showing to everyone else on here, is you don't understand the meaning of the statement you quoted, or you do and want everyone to misconstrue it to mean something else. Either ignorant, or trying to fool people.RingoMcCartney wrote:Stop trying to place the "context" game
The EU uses the statement
“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”
To justify its crushing of national sovereignty and independence in its aggressive drive to a federal europe with mission creep expansionist empire building , that only the other week the , near hysteria driven , Verhofstadt, was proudly boasting of , at the illiberal anti Democrats conference.
And I agree 100 % we do indeed, " see things differently you and I"
I believe that referendum results should actually be implemented.
I'm a bit old fashioned like that.
martin_p wrote:Ok, tell me the terms of the deal then. Are we leaving with a deal? No deal?
Interestly, I joined several polling sites.CombatClaret wrote:I want to confirm the 98.6% of polls this year that indicate Britain is now a majority remain country.
Why are we electing Federalists is the question that springs to mind when I read this. They're selected by the leaders of the member countries, how come all these federalists are getting elected to lead their countries?Colburn_Claret wrote:Everyone who sits at the top of the table are Federalists. They are selected for that very reason, not by you and me, but by other Federalists. The MEPs can then vote for who they want, and if they dont like any, they can replace them with another bunch of Federalists.
Imagine going into a polling booth at a GE and having a choice of 5 candidates, all Tories. No Labour, no Lib Dems, no Monster Raving Loonies, just Tories. People would go mad, but it's common practice within Brussels.
They have no manifesto, no opposition party, no alternative vision of Europe it's just their way. They might be good, and do a good job, BUT they might be crap, it makes no difference, because the agenda wont change and if they lost their jobs they will be replaced by more Federalists.
We as citizens of Europe have absolutely no say on which way the EU goes, or what it does, none. MEPs dont even have a say, they can vote against a proposal, but as history shows they just re word it and vote again, and again, until they get their way.
The EU commission dont even write policy, they just get paid a fortune to rubber stamp what the Federalist elite dictate.
Policy cant be brought from the floor of the European Parliament. Hilary Benns Surrender act wouldnt have been possible in Brussels because it's against their rules. The MEPs might get a vote, but they dont get to direct the EU in any shape or form.
When you are run by a government you have no control over, that you cannot remove, that you cannot replace, that has no opposition to offer an alternative future, you have no democracy.
They are taking more and more controls from sovereign states, unto itself, ALL for the greater good of course, but the more they take the less our voice becomes. That might seem fine if everything is hunky dory, but what happens when things stop going well, what do you do when you've made your bed and you have to lie in it, because as hard as it is to break free from the EU is today, it will only get more and more complicated in the future as more and more of our domestic policies are linked, tied in, dependent on one EU department or another.
If the last 3 years has opened my eyes to anything it's how much I hate the incumbents in the HOC , but I'd rather hate a government I can play my part in removing, then hate one I have no control over at all.
If, as it sounds like, Boris has made a big concession, and we get a deal similar to the one by Teresa May, what would your view be of the current PM?Colburn_Claret wrote:Everyone who sits at the top of the table are Federalists. They are selected for that very reason, not by you and me, but by other Federalists. The MEPs can then vote for who they want, and if they dont like any, they can replace them with another bunch of Federalists.
Imagine going into a polling booth at a GE and having a choice of 5 candidates, all Tories. No Labour, no Lib Dems, no Monster Raving Loonies, just Tories. People would go mad, but it's common practice within Brussels.
They have no manifesto, no opposition party, no alternative vision of Europe it's just their way. They might be good, and do a good job, BUT they might be crap, it makes no difference, because the agenda wont change and if they lost their jobs they will be replaced by more Federalists.
We as citizens of Europe have absolutely no say on which way the EU goes, or what it does, none. MEPs dont even have a say, they can vote against a proposal, but as history shows they just re word it and vote again, and again, until they get their way.
The EU commission dont even write policy, they just get paid a fortune to rubber stamp what the Federalist elite dictate.
Policy cant be brought from the floor of the European Parliament. Hilary Benns Surrender act wouldnt have been possible in Brussels because it's against their rules. The MEPs might get a vote, but they dont get to direct the EU in any shape or form.
When you are run by a government you have no control over, that you cannot remove, that you cannot replace, that has no opposition to offer an alternative future, you have no democracy.
They are taking more and more controls from sovereign states, unto itself, ALL for the greater good of course, but the more they take the less our voice becomes. That might seem fine if everything is hunky dory, but what happens when things stop going well, what do you do when you've made your bed and you have to lie in it, because as hard as it is to break free from the EU is today, it will only get more and more complicated in the future as more and more of our domestic policies are linked, tied in, dependent on one EU department or another.
If the last 3 years has opened my eyes to anything it's how much I hate the incumbents in the HOC , but I'd rather hate a government I can play my part in removing, then hate one I have no control over at all.
A poll of independence readers tells a very different story.martin_p wrote:Or alternatively, something that isn’t two months old.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.inde ... html%3famp
Tells a very different story.
The only people who are insisting on the harshest of brexits are the EU.Lancasterclaret wrote:But it isn't matched by the numbers who want to sack the whole thing off.
Again
If you insist on the harshest Brexit which has not enough support, then you won't get a Brexit at all.
Reality
And the ERG, and Nigel Farage.Damo wrote:The only people who are insisting on the harshest of brexits are the EU.
So polls of a couple of thousand trump a poll of 35m. Polls are not reliable as proved in the referendum and in particular rhe last GE.CombatClaret wrote:I want to confirm the 98.6% of polls this year that indicate Britain is now a majority remain country.
But you know that is not true.Damo wrote:The only people who are insisting on the harshest of brexits are the EU.
But I expect they will climb down now that it's a real possibility
Ok then, do you deny there’s uncertainty over Brexit. You seem a sensible poster.KateR wrote:Objection m'lord, argumentative!!
ohhh wait a minute, now I see a theme
Damo wrote:A poll of independence readers tells a very different story.
Of that you can be sure
But what about ‘the surrender bill’?Damo wrote:The only people who are insisting on the harshest of brexits are the EU.
But I expect they will climb down now that it's a real possibility
This is the last best chance of a deal at least.... The Irish government has towed the EU line, and good on them. I suspect that all Ireland is in danger of economic meltdown if things don’t change quickly; the point will only have been underlined in the meeting today. As Has been pointed out by the Conservatives for a long time further delay serves no one, unless it is nailed on the Tories will not going to get a majority next election... certainly not something I would be willing to gamble on.Lancasterclaret wrote:But you know that is not true.
The No Deal lot are there and sabotaging a deal.
And yes, there are clearly remainers who can see that this could be on its last legs but this is the last chance for a deal.
Just don't mess it up
All of that is an exploration into the specificities of golf club membership and the variables therein. None of it devalues the basic principle and analogy, that being a member of any club has to carry with it benefits and cost efficiencies that protect the integrity of that membership. On the back of a short conversation about the relative negotiation positions, all I was saying is that the EU was always going to negotiate in a way that preserved that integrity. Was it a mind blowing analogy? No. But it wasn't supposed to be representative of the whole debate.KateR wrote:First of all I do not have a high horse, but you continue to shoot one liners as though you have thought of something insightful that may helps others think, ok fair enough I never thought of that.
There are so many places it falls down as an overview, first and foremost it smacks of elitism, which I would maybe wrongly thought you'd be against.
It helps the layman though in that there are so many other places he can go and play much cheaper than a members only club, which of course the EU undeniably is.
My husband as been a member of several clubs around the world and it has been family memberships, I play or should say used to, even within numerous clubs there were the elitists, ohhh yes my husbands on the committee don't you know, or I am on the ladies committee, I have heard them talking about who is suitable and who is not.
For another thought it will always be which club are you a member of, for example the club nearest to my husband in Houston TX has a joining fee of $100,000, then an annual fee which is ridiculous and excludes 99% of Houstonians, "The River Oaks Country Club" look it up if you don't believe me.
My husband and several of his friends when they first started living in Houston formed there own golf club but without a golf course, it was one of only 3 in the US that was a PGA approved golf club with no course, it was run out of a British Pub, with a committee, handicaps, and several annual tournaments. They funny thing is they had numerous members and found that the very clubs that were expensive to join were asking them to play there since there took over a course for a morning or afternoon really, but for a couple of major tournaments they held also for a full day, and yes weekends. The same clubs would also offer things like free breakfast or a free drink to every player upon completing the round, so in this regard your analogy is very weak and actually supports leaving more than staying in my mind but of course I would never hold it up as a rationale.
I really didn't want to write all this, it does not help you change your mind but banal analogies are not helpful.
And sewage free beaches.KateR wrote:Given todays news and as a follow up to what I previously asked, when we leave does it mean that Euro lottery tickets can no longer be sold in the UK?
If so that would be a lot bigger loss to my family & I than any of the other things posted such as waiting in line at passport control and being able to get a work visa in any EU country!!
martin_p wrote:Ok then, do you deny there’s uncertainty over Brexit. You seem a sensible poster.
willsclarets wrote:All of that is an exploration into the specificities of golf club membership and the variables therein. None of it devalues the basic principle and analogy, that being a member of any club has to carry with it benefits and cost efficiencies that protect the integrity of that membership. On the back of a short conversation about the relative negotiation positions, all I was saying is that the EU was always going to negotiate in a way that preserved that integrity. Was it a mind blowing analogy? No. But it wasn't supposed to be representative of the whole debate.
And set against characterisation of democracy reduced to "sometimes you lose", I hardly think it was worth singling out.
martin_p wrote:And sewage free beaches.
Oh so you just want to overturn the last referendum then. How democratic of you. I thought you were going to say what Hillary Benn and lots of other labour mps are now saying, that we get a new deal agreed with the EU and then put that up against remain in about 6 months. As stupid as that sounds, if we can't get a new deal they want to put May's thrashed deal up against remain. I doubt they care what is put up as long as they can overturn the last vote.CombatClaret wrote:I want to confirm the 98.6% of polls this year that indicate Britain is now a majority remain country.
All I’ve heard from Labour so far is the promise of a Henry 8th type asset stripping to pay for a comprehensive education system... as someone who was schooled during Labours last attempt at comprehensive education... What a treat awaits the young.AndrewJB wrote:I was referring to Johnson's direct authoritarian actions and words. Perhaps Bercow is deploying a smoke screen himself? Triggering gammon.
This was Corbyn today, trying to "divert attention from his own party"
I see you've gone for the fingers in your ears shouting "blah, blah I can't hear you" approach again.RingoMcCartney wrote:Economic disaster!!!???
"A vote to Leave would lead to the Nissan plant in sunderland closing" - Remoaners and their project fear prior to the 2016 Peoples Vote
Sunderland and the country votes Leave anyway.
Fast forward to 2019
Today , production of the new Nissan Juke, aimed at the European market began and the new cars rolled of the production line
Lies lies lies.
How embarrassed about that are you!
Nissan begins manufacturing new Juke model at Sunderland plant - Chronicle Live
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/no ... w-17063387" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TheFamilyCat wrote:I see you've gone for the fingers in your ears shouting "blah, blah I can't hear you" approach again.
It is not anti- Brexit news.... it HAS to be lies, surely you’ve worked out the modus operandi of this thread.KateR wrote:mmmmm, yes, pot calling kettle black me thinks.
Not the case - most of the ERG want a deal, Steve Baker is the Chair and I recently sat for an hour listening to him explain to us what kind of a deal he wants. Basically a free trade agreement after a transition.Spijed wrote:And the ERG, and Nigel Farage.
They do not want a deal under any circumstances.
Your screenshot doesn’t show the results of the poll (unless I’m missing something).Damo wrote:
This "overturn" rhetoric is nonsense and really should stop. It won't stop, obviously, and I won't waste too much energy trying to appeal to brexiteer logic, so I'll keep it short and sweet. Any hypothetical referendum with the option for 'leave' being defined (as it would be, in accordance with the legislation that would be passed to hold the referendum) held in six-months time, a year, two years from now, next week, tomorrow - whenever - would supplant one 3+ year-old policy mandate with a better defined and more up to date policy mandate better reflecting the mood of the country as a whole right now. That isn't what 'overturning' means. It's essentially what brexiteers were arguing for years before the question of EU membership became mainstream.summitclaret wrote:Oh so you just want to overturn the last referendum then. How democratic of you. I thought you were going to say what Hillary Benn and lots of other labour mps are now saying, that we get a new deal agreed with the EU and then put that up against remain in about 6 months. As stupid as that sounds, if we can't get a new deal they want to put May's thrashed deal up against remain. I doubt they care what is put up as long as they can overturn the last vote.
Exactly.summitclaret wrote:So polls of a couple of thousand trump a poll of 35m. Polls are not reliable as proved in the referendum and in particular rhe last GE.
What question do you want to ask?
So you think that this remainer parliament is going to agree a fair question? There is only 1 - do you want to leave yes or no. Anything that takes no deal away from the table and means the EU stay in charge of negotiations.Spiral wrote:This "overturn" rhetoric is nonsense and really should stop. It won't stop, obviously, and I won't waste too much energy trying to appeal to brexiteer logic, so I'll keep it short and sweet. Any hypothetical referendum with the option for 'leave' being defined (as it would be, in accordance with the legislation that would be passed to hold the referendum) held in six-months time, a year, two years from now, next week, tomorrow - whenever - would supplant one 3+ year-old policy mandate with a better defined and more up to date policy mandate better reflecting the mood of the country as a whole right now. That isn't what 'overturning' means. It's essentially what brexiteers were arguing for years before the question of EU membership became mainstream.
Ireland has to blink.... anything else is inviting potential economic disaster. Eire needs the British market, he has done very well to last this long. The last thing the EU needs is to have Ireland back to going cap in hand for major bailouts like the bad old days.CrosspoolClarets wrote:On the main topic of the day, my hunch is that Ireland have blinked. I know I predicted that, so may be suffering from confirmation bias, but.....
The age old wisdom is that the person making the compromise is the one who has to spin it his way, so that he can sell it to his people as a joint thing. It’s Dublin who are doing the spinning. The other clue was Varadkar grinning like a Cheshire Cat at the start of the talks.
We’ll have to move a bit of course, but Boris’s lack of majority may come back to help him.
All speculation, but we will see.
But how does he win Brexit Party votes?CrosspoolClarets wrote:On the main topic of the day, my hunch is that Ireland have blinked. I know I predicted that, so may be suffering from confirmation bias, but.....
The age old wisdom is that the person making the compromise is the one who has to spin it his way, so that he can sell it to his people as a joint thing. It’s Dublin who are doing the spinning. The other clue was Varadkar grinning like a Cheshire Cat at the start of the talks.
We’ll have to move a bit of course, but Boris’s lack of majority may come back to help him.
All speculation, but we will see.
elwaclaret wrote:Ireland has to blink.... anything else is inviting potential economic disaster. Eire needs the British market, he has done very well to last this long. The last thing the EU needs is to have Ireland back to going cap in hand for major bailouts like the bad old days.
Auto correct fail pal. I'll proof read when I retire, and brexit news makes or breaks my daymartin_p wrote:Where does it say it’s ‘independence readers’? (sic)
And I thought they were absolute proof. Unless they say something contrary to what you believeGreenmile wrote:Your screenshot doesn’t show the results of the poll (unless I’m missing something).
I thought all opinion polls can be ignored anyway, or is that just the ones that don’t show what you want them to?