Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Spijed]

Quite a few leave people have described May’s deal as terrible in just the last few days. Do they still think this way, or have they changed their minds?

Only when it suits them.

[Elizabeth]

It's 'Elizabeth' martin not' Liz'. I don't call you Marty.

I know you have the edge over Ringo because he thinks I am you, and we both know that's not true. Ever since I included ' The long and winding road' in one of my posts as a laugh.

It's a watching brief for me at the moment until the deal is completed. I enjoy Kate's posts (sorry, it's 'their' not 'there') which support most of my thoughts.

It's not a bad idea resisting posting and has almost led to me believing Lancaster wants a deal despite claiming in the recent past that he is thinking of voting for the revoke party in the GE.

Maybe he might inform us soon that he is having a break himself from posting. Couldn't resist that.

[Paul Waine]

Ok. You realise you’re (probably) agreeing to disagree with Albert Einstein, though?

Mind, as a really intelligent person who was interested in facts and stuff, he probably didn’t have your level of common sense.

Hi Greenmile, interesting thing for Einstein to have said. If you consult Quote Investigator it is not certain that Einstein made this statement. The words were first used by a journalist writing about Einstein.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/29/common-sense/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KateR]

Hi Greenmile, interesting thing for Einstein to have said. If you consult Quote Investigator it is not certain that Einstein made this statement. The words were first used by a journalist writing about Einstein.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/29/common-sense/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

don't worry about it, what's one misquote out of this whole thread

[Jakubclaret]

don't worry about it, what's one misquote out of this whole thread

In fairness to greenmile he did use the words “allegedly & probably” whether he can remember that that’s another question, I didn’t bother replying as if you are using a dead man who was meant to have said something or didn’t say years ago it’s pretty desperate stuff to form the basis of a argument on, I said agree to disagree meaning leave it there for that very reason.

[Spijed]

I see Nigel is accusing Boris of surrendering.

[martin_p]

I see Nigel is accusing Boris of surrendering.

Nigel is sensing the end of his political career.

[AndyClaret]

I see Nigel is accusing Boris of surrendering.

Which probably means he isn't.

[summitclaret]

I don't know how people think that they know what is going on because both sides are remaining tight lipped. I just can't see BJ giving concessions that he knows won't wash with the likes of JRM and Steve Baker. Unless he is going along with something he has no intention of actually agreeing to. Remember he needs to put something to the HOC on Saturday.

[AlargeClaret]

One good thing to come out of this for either side will indeed be the neutering ( and hopefully political end ) of Nigel Farage .

I don’t mind him as a general political right wing commentator but his ego has turned him from “ common sense and good value “ to a “ 1 issue boor” imo

[Spijed]

Which probably means he isn't.

Nigel Farage
@Nigel_Farage
I don't know what
@BorisJohnson
has given away, but he sounds very defensive. Let us hope that this is not a surrender.

[martin_p]

I don't know how people think that they know what is going on because both sides are remaining tight lipped. I just can't see BJ giving concessions that he knows won't wash with the likes of JRM and Steve Baker. Unless he is going along with something he has no intention of actually agreeing to. Remember he needs to put something to the HOC on Saturday.

It won’t matter a jot if the ERG are part of scuppering the deal, he’ll still frame any defeat as ‘people v the establishment’.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The lying anti-no dealers are reportedly about to prove they aren’t just anti no deal they are anti Brexit (we all know that of course but they have been telling porkies).

The attempt is to use the 19th October to vote for a confirmatory referendum on Boris’s deal (casually ignoring the fact that one narrow Leave option versus the entire Remain possibilities would stack the deck in their favour).

Of course, even if we leave with this deal much of the future would be up for negotiation, especially the content of a trade deal, and that is why the deck would be stacked due to those Brexiteers not yet certain if Brexit will end up the way they want it to.

I am tempted to think that vote would definitely lose but there may be a final twist in the tale.

[If it be your will]

The lying anti-no dealers are reportedly about to prove they aren’t just anti no deal they are anti Brexit (we all know that of course but they have been telling porkies).

The attempt is to use the 19th October to vote for a confirmatory referendum on Boris’s deal (casually ignoring the fact that one narrow Leave option versus the entire Remain possibilities would stack the deck in their favour).

Of course, even if we leave with this deal much of the future would be up for negotiation, especially the content of a trade deal, and that is why the deck would be stacked due to those Brexiteers not yet certain if Brexit will end up the way they want it to.

I am tempted to think that vote would definitely lose but there may be a final twist in the tale.

I'm not quite ready to admit it just yet, not until I see the deal that comes out of all this, but I'm poised to hold my hand up and say "Yep. Crosspool. That unhinged letter given to the Spectator by an 'unnamed source' did work after all." The whole atmosphere changed after that.

(Not yet, but soon, I feel.)

[summitclaret]

The lying anti-no dealers are reportedly about to prove they aren’t just anti no deal they are anti Brexit (we all know that of course but they have been telling porkies).

The attempt is to use the 19th October to vote for a confirmatory referendum on Boris’s deal (casually ignoring the fact that one narrow Leave option versus the entire Remain possibilities would stack the deck in their favour).

Of course, even if we leave with this deal much of the future would be up for negotiation, especially the content of a trade deal, and that is why the deck would be stacked due to those Brexiteers not yet certain if Brexit will end up the way they want it to.

I am tempted to think that vote would definitely lose but there may be a final twist in the tale.

Don't worry. If the remainer HOC tries to add a conf ref to a new deal agreed, it will be seen by the public for what it is. Each and every one of the 400 plus mps from leave constituencies that votes no, and especially for a referendum, will be in massive trouble at the GE.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not quite ready to admit it just yet, not until I see the deal that comes out of all this, but I'm poised to hold my hand up and say "Yep. Crosspool. That unhinged letter given to the Spectator by an 'unnamed source' did work after all." The whole atmosphere changed after that.

(Not yet, but soon, I feel.)

Anyone who believes that would believe anything.

The compromise here isn't from the EU.

[Lancasterclaret]

Don't worry. If the remainer HOC tries to add a conf ref to a new deal agreed, it will be seen by the public for what it is. Each and every one of the 400 plus mps from leave constituencies that votes no, and especially for a referendum, will be in massive trouble at the GE.

Again, you are making the mistake that everyone thinks like you.

They don't.

Its just as easy to see this as Mays deal rebranded, which would have the affect of saying to people "all that **** for the last year, and for what?"

[KateR]

One good thing to come out of this for either side will indeed be the neutering ( and hopefully political end ) of Nigel Farage .

I don’t mind him as a general political right wing commentator but his ego has turned him from “ common sense and good value “ to a “ 1 issue boor” imo

you are not allowed to say "common sense" on here, sorry, just trying to help as you will get a lecture and ticking off

[summitclaret]

Imagine if they vote no and/or for a ref and lose. Not only have they backed the wrong side they may have ended their careers for nothing. Better to vote for any deal Hope Julie Cooper gets it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Imagine if they vote no and/or for a ref and lose. Not only have they backed the wrong side they may have ended their careers for nothing. Better to vote for any deal Hope Julie Cooper gets it.

I'd rather they went out doing what they believe is right, rather than in fear of their jobs.

If this deal is acceptable, then it should go through.

But the danger is if its acceptable to the ERG, then it could be unpalatable to the Labour MPs who might vote for it.

[Paul Waine]

I see Nigel is accusing Boris of surrendering.

Does he mean BJ is complying with the Benn Act?

[KateR]

I feel like there are a lot of sharks that have gone deep and silent but circulating, getting ready to savage what ever the outcome if it smells of we are leaving with a deal.

[summitclaret]

Again, you are making the mistake that everyone thinks like you.

They don't.

Its just as easy to see this as Mays deal rebranded, which would have the affect of saying to people "all that **** for the last year, and for what?"

To get a leaver in charge of phase 2 and a ftd as I keep having to say.

[Spijed]

Don't worry. If the remainer HOC tries to add a conf ref to a new deal agreed, it will be seen by the public for what it is. Each and every one of the 400 plus mps from leave constituencies that votes no, and especially for a referendum, will be in massive trouble at the GE.

You really think Labour voters are going to vote for the Tories in Labour strongholds?

It's either the Brexit party or nothing!

[Lancasterclaret]

To get a leaver in charge of phase 2 and a ftd as I keep having to say.

But that doesn't change the fact that we've spent a year wasting time summit!

[Paul Waine]

Again, you are making the mistake that everyone thinks like you.

They don't.

Its just as easy to see this as Mays deal rebranded, which would have the affect of saying to people "all that **** for the last year, and for what?"

I think the "all that...." is all about the MPs who voted against last time.....

EDIT: Isn't this "wasting time" all a result of Parliament "having a say?" Isn't that what people wanted?

[summitclaret]

You really think Labour voters are going to vote for the Tories in Labour strongholds?

It's either the Brexit party or nothing!

They are not but as you say they will vote BP. I think many lab mps will vote for their careers.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think the "all that...." is all about the MPs who voted against last time.....

EDIT: Isn't this "wasting time" all a result of Parliament "having a say?" Isn't that what people wanted?

Good spinning if you can convince people that is what this is Paul.

The reality is that this is Mays deal IV.

Look, I'm just glad there is a deal, but I don't want people to fall for this "wonderful Johnson" stuff that will come out.

Brexit is at the last chance saloon, and this is what it is.

Its Brexit, but only because the fanatics have realised that they have to do this Brexit first, and then they can go for their Brexit 2nd.

Its what could have happened under May.

Thats the reality

[Spijed]

They are not but as you say they will vote BP. I think many lab mps will vote for their careers.

I agree that many Labour MPs are going to struggle.

This is where I think it's a bit unpredictable. Will people question the existence of the Brexit party after the 31st if we've actually left?

I've read that the Conservatives are targeting a number of key Labour seats, but will the Brexit Party, and indeed UKIP muddy the waters in that respect?

In key marginals a few hundred seats to the BXP & UKIP make it a bit volatile.

[summitclaret]

But that doesn't change the fact that we've spent a year wasting time summit!

and who do you blame fot that?

I blame in no particular order

May and Robbins for agreeing that a divorce was sep from trade.
Hammond and Rudd and the other tory manifesto deniers
Anna Soubry and Sarah Wolleston etl
Grieve in particular
Anyone asking for another referundum, the sooner they asked the more culpable so that's the LDs.
Blair, Campbell and Major and Heseltine and Chris Patten
Labour fence sitting and for being more interested in a GE , until now.
The Speaker
Lord Adonis
The EU

[Lancasterclaret]

and who do you blame fot that?

I blame in no particular order

May and Robbins for agreeing that a divorce was sep from trade.
Hammond and Rudd and the other tory manifesto deniers
Anna Soubry and Sarah Wolleston etl
Grieve in particular
Anyone asking for another referundum, the sooner they asked the more culpable so that's the LDs.
Blair, Campbell and Major and Heseltine and Chris Patten
Labour fence sitting and for being more interested in a GE , until now.
The Speaker
Lord Adonis
The EU

I'm absolutely not shocked at all to see not one single Brexiteer on that list.

[nil_desperandum]

and who do you blame fot that?

I blame in no particular order

May and Robbins for agreeing that a divorce was sep from trade.
Hammond and Rudd and the other tory manifesto deniers
Anna Soubry and Sarah Wolleston etl
Grieve in particular
Anyone asking for another referundum, the sooner they asked the more culpable so that's the LDs.
Blair, Campbell and Major and Heseltine and Chris Patten
Labour fence sitting and for being more interested in a GE , until now.
The Speaker
Lord Adonis
The EU

You seem to have omitted the one single person who is most culpable.
David Davis a committed leaver who, despite a history of failure, was given the top job from day one. A "leave" politician who - by all accounts - didn't turn up in Brussels much, and when he did he went totally unprepared and spent most of his time in the bar.
Now, of course, maybe that's because he thought it would be the easiest deal possible, but it certainly set the tone for our ill-prepared negotiations compared to the absolute professionalism that the EU team have shown.
Edit: And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure that is was your man Davis that signed us up to the divorce first timetable - not Robbins or May.

[martin_p]

I'm not quite ready to admit it just yet, not until I see the deal that comes out of all this, but I'm poised to hold my hand up and say "Yep. Crosspool. That unhinged letter given to the Spectator by an 'unnamed source' did work after all." The whole atmosphere changed after that.

(Not yet, but soon, I feel.)

So the threats have caused the UK to make a big concession? Massively effective clearly!

[summitclaret]

You seem to have omitted the one single person who is most culpable.
David Davis a committed leaver who, despite a history of failure, was given the top job from day one. A "leave" politician who - by all accounts - didn't turn up in Brussels much, and when he did he went totally unprepared and spent most of his time in the bar.
Now, of course, maybe that's because he thought it would be the easiest deal possible, but it certainly set the tone for our ill-prepared negotiations compared to the absolute professionalism that the EU team have shown.
Edit: And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure that is was your man Davis that signed us up to the divorce first timetable - not Robbins or May.

Give over. Davies resigned because of May's soft of softest Brexit plans because there were too many tory remainers. He has been proved right.

[Jakubclaret]

If we can get the first phase of Brexit over the line then it might be time for Northern Ireland to 'consider' becoming an independent country that could remain 100% in the EU. A democratic referendum perhaps?

Well that’s gaining in popularity anyhow & inevitable In my view it will happen 1 day that it will become a united ireland, it would have been a given in the event of a no deal still could but with today’s news looking unlikely, some of the hardliners frustrated & wanting a hard brexit will look back & see it as a missed opportunity that some sort of amalgamation didn’t reach fruition as opposed to just NI remaining within the EU, Far too much faffing about & extensions have made the situation far more complex coupled with the EUs inflexibility in my view as a remote possibility short term.

[summitclaret]

Here is a summary from Sky of what they think is going on. Looks promising and probably the main threat is now from the conf ref lobby.

http://news.sky.com/story/johnsons-brex ... s-11833165" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[summitclaret]

For which there is absolutely no mandate.

[Jakubclaret]

The very idea of "agreeing to disagree" with Einstein has made me chuckle.

It pales to disagreeing with a man who has been dead for over 60 years & we can’t even be sure he did indeed say what was “alleged or probable” it’s absolutely hilarious as a understatement.

[Damo]

The DUP are in favour of it, so it's not May's deal
It looks like a credible threat of no deal has finally forced the EUs hand
If it wasnt for remainers insistance that our bargaining hand was lopped off, this could all have been sorted months ago

[If it be your will]

Does suggest a bottom lip you could use as a step, doesn’t it.

For some at least, it does almost look as if the actual outcome of leave, remain, deal, no deal, whatever, is actually subordinate to the primary aim: coming out on top on a football messageboard.

Jesus Christ.

[If it be your will]

and who do you blame fot that?

I blame in no particular order

May and Robbins for agreeing that a divorce was sep from trade.
Hammond and Rudd and the other tory manifesto deniers
Anna Soubry and Sarah Wolleston etl
Grieve in particular
Anyone asking for another referundum, the sooner they asked the more culpable so that's the LDs.
Blair, Campbell and Major and Heseltine and Chris Patten
Labour fence sitting and for being more interested in a GE , until now.
The Speaker
Lord Adonis
The EU

I'm not necessarily blaming any single person for this, but at the time this was built up as a massive thing - The Row of the Summer. Then suddenly, without fanfare, seemingly overnight, this was conceded. There wasn't any particular media attention or anything. I remember thinking at the time 'eh?' and even to this day I don't know what happened with that one at all.

[Erasmus]

Though it was spoken rather than written, one quotation from Einstein that appears to genuine is, 'Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.' Perhaps the EU should use that as their slogan.

[AndrewJB]

Arlene Foster saying they won’t accept a different customs rule to the rest of the U.K. Scotland probably asking; “can we have that instead?”

[nil_desperandum]

Give over. Davies resigned because of May's soft of softest Brexit plans because there were too many tory remainers. He has been proved right.

Your'e way off the mark there.
Davis was given a job to do, and was way below the standard required.
He had a history of incompetence and failure.He wasn't an experienced and skilled negotiator like Barnier.
As I said, he thought it would be easy. I don't often insult people but the guy is a compete buffoon. He turned up at the first meeting with one single sheet of paper and almost immediately agreed that we should settle the divorce bill before anything else. (Dare I call this a Surrender Act), and it's on record that he spent a massive 4 hours in total negotiating with Barnier during his substantial term as Minister for Brexit. According to my sources, he spent most of his time in Brussels in the bar. (I think leavers would describe this as on the Brussels gravy train).
He had been a leading and boorish Brexiteer for years and given the job by May because of this.
I don't understand why you would try to defend him. He was being paid to do this.

[summitclaret]

If this deal comes off, what happens if the HOC reject it. I think the surrender act gives us the ludicrous situation of BJ having to ask for an extension to try to get a deal. Presumably a softer one. Well if that happens would the EU grant one and for what purpose?

[summitclaret]

Your'e way off the mark there.
Davis was given a job to do, and was way below the standard required.
He had a history of incompetence and failure.He wasn't an experienced and skilled negotiator like Barnier.
As I said, he thought it would be easy. I don't often insult people but the guy is a compete buffoon. He turned up at the first meeting with one single sheet of paper and almost immediately agreed that we should settle the divorce bill before anything else. (Dare I call this a Surrender Act), and it's on record that he spent a massive 4 hours in total negotiating with Barnier during his substantial term as Minister for Brexit. According to my sources, he spent most of his time in Brussels in the bar. (I think leavers would describe this as on the Brussels gravy train).
He had been a leading and boorish Brexiteer for years and given the job by May because of this.
I don't understand why you would try to defend him. He was being paid to do this.

This is remainer myth.

[Spijed]

This is remainer myth.

You'll not find anyone who had a good word to say about David Davis.

[nil_desperandum]

This is remainer myth.

Which bits?
It's just about all in print in respectable publications, and he hasn't challenged it or threatened to sue.

[AndrewJB]

This is remainer myth.

What is factually incorrect then?

[nil_desperandum]

What is factually incorrect then?

I'll guarantee he won't answer that because it's a remainer myth.