Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:59 am

A heads up for those who have not seen Blair tied in knots by Andrew Nield on his show on 9th Oct ( available on bbc iPlayer bbc2 19.00) on a possible 2nd referendum. Bear in mind that this was before the breakthrough in discussions.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:02 am

Thought Blair came out of it pretty well.

He answered all the questions for a start, and it didn't pretend that reality wasn't reality. Love him or loathe him, he understands that you have to answer the questions even if its going to be a difficult answer.

Now if you really want to see a politician tied up in knots, here's Richard Tice of the Brexit Party getting completely owned.

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/ ... 3240039425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:13 am

Good summary of the last week here

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/101 ... -connolly/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:34 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Good summary of the last week here

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/101 ... -connolly/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's really helpful thanks and interesting to get an Irish perspective. I am encouraged that a deal is possible.

Common sense seems to be coming out at last, once we have forced matters despite the surrender act.



.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:39 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Good spinning if you can convince people that is what this is Paul.

The reality is that this is Mays deal IV.

Look, I'm just glad there is a deal, but I don't want people to fall for this "wonderful Johnson" stuff that will come out.

Brexit is at the last chance saloon, and this is what it is.

Its Brexit, but only because the fanatics have realised that they have to do this Brexit first, and then they can go for their Brexit 2nd.

Its what could have happened under May.

Thats the reality
Morning Lancs, you've not commented on my point: all the "wasted" time is down to the MPs and Parliament having their say. I believe most are supportive of this happening (the quality of the debate is another matter).

Maybe BJ has negotiated the same as TM, we will be able to make full comparisons later.

Yes, if BJ does get his deal through parliament this is down to him. And, he's working with a much more negative parliament than TM faced. Pity but aren't these the realities?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:45 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thought Blair came out of it pretty well.

He answered all the questions for a start, and it didn't pretend that reality wasn't reality. Love him or loathe him, he understands that you have to answer the questions even if its going to be a difficult answer.

Now if you really want to see a politician tied up in knots, here's Richard Tice of the Brexit Party getting completely owned.

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/ ... 3240039425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This kind of interviewing has been massively missing on both sides of the debate since Cameron put the referendum in to play. Our politicians and leading political commentators and influences should have been scrutinised and held to account and made sure that mainstream media got this out to the people

The amount of lies and falsehoods that have gone unchallenged and the way biased media has propagated this has a lot to answer for around why we are in this mess and why the country is so polarised
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:48 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:This kind of interviewing has been massively missing on both sides of the debate since Cameron put the referendum in to play. Our politicians and leading political commentators and influences should have been scrutinised and held to account and made sure that mainstream media got this out to the people

The amount of lies and falsehoods that have gone unchallenged and the way biased media has propagated this has a lot to answer for around why we are in this mess and why the country is so polarised
But unfortunately the BBC and the like receive huge amounts of EU funding so will always be biased towards remain.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:52 am

Paul Waine wrote:Morning Lancs, you've not commented on my point: all the "wasted" time is down to the MPs and Parliament having their say. I believe most are supportive of this happening (the quality of the debate is another matter).

Maybe BJ has negotiated the same as TM, we will be able to make full comparisons later.

Yes, if BJ does get his deal through parliament this is down to him. And, he's working with a much more negative parliament than TM faced. Pity but aren't these the realities?
Brexit has spent far more time being “negotiated” by the government than being considered by parliament.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:52 am

Just seen on twitter massive disruption planned on November 1st if we haven't left.
Fuel depot blockades and City centre problems.

Let's hope it's sorted.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:03 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:But unfortunately the BBC and the like receive huge amounts of EU funding so will always be biased towards remain.
Yet their political editor acts almost like a press secretary for Johnson.

The idea that people think the BBC has either a large right wing or left wing bias is testament to the unchecked rubbish the real biased media put out that those in their echo chambers swallow whole heartily

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:08 am

AndrewJB wrote:Brexit has spent far more time being “negotiated” by the government than being considered by parliament.
Always going to involve highly complex and protracted negotiations. If a deal is agreed then BJ as PM will have delivered pretty swiftly and I've no doubt his tactics, which many saw as terrible and ruthless, will have made an enormous difference in getting a deal done.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:16 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Yet their political editor acts almost like a press secretary for Johnson.

The idea that people think the BBC has either a large right wing or left wing bias is testament to the unchecked rubbish the real biased media put out that those in their echo chambers swallow whole heartily
I think you can assume a bias either way, depending on what bbc program you tune into. I have seen, and heard programs that are presented from a pro remain point of view, and programs that I (as a brexiteer) have thought, remainers wont like that.
Unlike, for example, C4. The BBC isn't one big entity with one point of view. And as a whole, I'd say it's fairly neutral
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:20 am

Damo wrote:I think you can assume a bias either way, depending on what bbc program you tune into. I have seen, and heard programs that are presented from a pro remain point of view, and programs that I (as a brexiteer) have thought, remainers wont like that.
Unlike, for example, C4. The BBC isn't one big entity with one point of view. And as a whole, I'd say it's fairly neutral
Agree and I think when you get both sides saying it is biased against them its usually a decent sign it actually sits on average somewhere in between
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:22 am

Just heard a good description of the deal by Graham Brady, it's like Mays chequers proposal, but only for N Ireland.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:23 am

Paul Waine wrote:Morning Lancs, you've not commented on my point: all the "wasted" time is down to the MPs and Parliament having their say. I believe most are supportive of this happening (the quality of the debate is another matter).

Maybe BJ has negotiated the same as TM, we will be able to make full comparisons later.

Yes, if BJ does get his deal through parliament this is down to him. And, he's working with a much more negative parliament than TM faced. Pity but aren't these the realities?
If the ERG and the DUP back this deal, but not Mays, then its all been time wasted.

You of course are completely free to disagree, but the differences in reality are minimal.

The customs line in down the Irish Sea, not on the border (which is obviously very sensible but an absolute red line for the DUP/ERG)

The only reason this becomes acceptable is that its finally got into Brexiteers heads the reality of the situation. This is the available Brexit, take it or you won't get Brexit at all.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:23 am

AndyClaret wrote:Just heard a good description of the deal by Graham Brady, it's like Mays chequers proposal, but only for N Ireland.
It is essentially that

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:24 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Just seen on twitter massive disruption planned on November 1st if we haven't left.
Fuel depot blockades and City centre problems.

Let's hope it's sorted.
Lets hope they are as peaceful as the remain protests have been.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:28 am

taio wrote:Always going to involve highly complex and protracted negotiations. If a deal is agreed then BJ as PM will have delivered pretty swiftly and I've no doubt his tactics, which many saw as terrible and ruthless, will have made an enormous difference in getting a deal done.
The reaction to his press call with Merkel appears to have finally made Johnsons realise that the customs border can not be on the border, it has to be in the Irish Sea.

So its made a difference alright, just not in the way you want to appear to portray it.

Johnson has realised he's holding a pair of fives, while his opponents have got a full house, and he's out of bluffing time.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:33 am

Brave Sir Boris
Image

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:33 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:The reaction to his press call with Merkel appears to have finally made Johnsons realise that the customs border can not be on the border, it has to be in the Irish Sea.

So its made a difference alright, just not in the way you want to appear to portray it.

Johnson has realised he's holding a pair of fives, while his opponents have got a full house, and he's out of bluffing time.
He will have made a big difference if he can agree a deal with the EU and parliament - that's the true test but let's see if it happens. Threatening to walk away without a deal has been key in my view.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:45 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:If the ERG and the DUP back this deal, but not Mays, then its all been time wasted.

You of course are completely free to disagree, but the differences in reality are minimal.

The customs line in down the Irish Sea, not on the border (which is obviously very sensible but an absolute red line for the DUP/ERG)

The only reason this becomes acceptable is that its finally got into Brexiteers heads the reality of the situation. This is the available Brexit, take it or you won't get Brexit at all.
The part of May's deal that brexiteers had an issue was the backstop.
This kept us bound to the EU until a time they decided it was no longer needed. (Basically forever)
Now that has been removed for the majority of the UK, this deal gives us more or less everything we wanted (and let's be honest, nobody gives a toss about NI. A tribal, no man's land that causes nothing but problems for everyone in this small area of northern europe. It has been nothing but a pawn in this whole process)
If this deal makes everyone happy, then there is really no need to keep trying to claim some kind of moral victory here.
If its everything that commentators are saying it is, let's get on with it, get it signed off and let's move on. You of all people seem in need of a break from brexit
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:45 am

taio wrote:He will have made a big difference if he can agree a deal with the EU and parliament - that's the true test but let's see if it happens. Threatening to walk away without a deal has been key in my view.
According to the political commentators the EU thinks the Benn act would have stopped him walking away without a deal

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:51 am

Spijed wrote:According to the political commentators the EU thinks the Benn act would have stopped him walking away without a deal
This is true. But there are strong suggestions the PM was working on strategies to find a way to overcome this and that in itself strengthened his negotiating position because it aligned to the their no deal position.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:53 am

Spijed wrote:According to the political commentators the EU thinks the Benn act would have stopped him walking away without a deal
Until the General election, when a majority of those who voted for the surrender act would be sacked.

Then it would get overturned when Boris knew he would have a majority with the Brexit party etc..

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:56 am

taio wrote:He will have made a big difference if he can agree a deal with the EU and parliament - that's the true test but let's see if it happens. Threatening to walk away without a deal has been key in my view.
It hasn't got the result he wanted or expected though.

But if he can get it through Parliament and the EU, then he's done well, but a lot of that is down to this being the last chance of Brexit, rather than anything else.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:57 am

taio wrote:He will have made a big difference if he can agree a deal with the EU and parliament - that's the true test but let's see if it happens. Threatening to walk away without a deal has been key in my view.
Except the EU don't seem to have conceded anything.
It appears to be May's withdrawal agreement that the majority thought was bad for the UK, with a change to the Customs border that satisfies the EU.
It hardly helps us keep the Union together. (ie. If there's a Customs Union for Ireland then why not one for Scotland too?)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:01 am

AndyClaret wrote:Just heard a good description of the deal by Graham Brady, it's like Mays chequers proposal, but only for N Ireland.
Fundamentally, yes. The problem previously was the DUP (and unionists everywhere) wouldn't allow any semblance of a 'NI-only' type solution when chequers was proposed, on account it weakened the Union, so the whole UK ended up with the dreaded backstop.

All this work seems to be to get the unionists on side, so that they will allow some kind of special set of rules applying to NI only, freeing up the British mainland to do as it likes. It looks almost like the UK and EU are going out of their way to make the deal so favourable for NI in every other sense, that they'll go with it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:04 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It hasn't got the result he wanted or expected though.

But if he can get it through Parliament and the EU, then he's done well, but a lot of that is down to this being the last chance of Brexit, rather than anything else.
Probably but he clearly knows that's what happens with negotiation and the need for flexibility, compromise and creativity. This is despite the nonsense that he didn't even want a deal and was simply going through the motions as part of some blame game. I agree he will have done well but obviously still lots to do to get over the line.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:09 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Except the EU don't seem to have conceded anything.
It appears to be May's withdrawal agreement that the majority thought was bad for the UK, with a change to the Customs border that satisfies the EU.
It hardly helps us keep the Union together. (ie. If there's a Customs Union for Ireland then why not one for Scotland too?)
We await the detail but as long as a sensible deal can be done, as opposed to no deal, I'm not bothered. In which case he will have delivered.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:17 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Except the EU don't seem to have conceded anything.
It appears to be May's withdrawal agreement that the majority thought was bad for the UK, with a change to the Customs border that satisfies the EU.
It hardly helps us keep the Union together. (ie. If there's a Customs Union for Ireland then why not one for Scotland too?)
I'm with Damo, that I don't really mind who has conceded what, but if I was to play the 'who has conceded what' game, my take is this:

Boris has conceded there won't be customs checks on the NI/RoI border
DUP/unionists have conceded that the exact same rules won't apply to them as the rest of the UK post brexit
The EU have conceded that the exact same rules won't apply in NI as they do in the RoI, despite there being no physical border between the two

Is that not what is happening here?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:21 am

If this deal gets done apart from the obvious avoidance of No Deal the fact that Brexiteers see it as a victory for Johnson and a good deal is great news.

It means that should the reality be a disaster then they will need to collectively take responsibility for getting it wrong and gives much more chance of getting a left / centrist govt elected who can maybe renegotiate our relationship with the EU more towards a CU and SM arrangement

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:25 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:If this deal gets done apart from the obvious avoidance of No Deal the fact that Brexiteers see it as a victory for Johnson and a good deal is great news.

It means that should the reality be a disaster then they will need to collectively take responsibility for getting it wrong and gives much more chance of getting a left / centrist govt elected who can maybe renegotiate our relationship with the EU more towards a CU and SM arrangement
What are the changes you think might result in disaster?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:The reaction to his press call with Merkel appears to have finally made Johnsons realise that the customs border can not be on the border, it has to be in the Irish Sea.

So its made a difference alright, just not in the way you want to appear to portray it.

Johnson has realised he's holding a pair of fives, while his opponents have got a full house, and he's out of bluffing time.
As I said last week, he will have planned for some concessions for weeks. The people negotiating know what they are doing and want a proper brexit not a brino.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:30 am

If this new WA is agreed and presented to parliament I will be watching with great interest how Labour MPs in leave majority constituencies vote (yes Julie Cooper this includes you).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:33 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It hasn't got the result he wanted or expected though.

But if he can get it through Parliament and the EU, then he's done well, but a lot of that is down to this being the last chance of Brexit, rather than anything else.
Leavers have been saying for ages that it had to get down to the last days before the EU and Ireland would shift. All remainers have done is to play for time hoping for everyone to get fed up. Well the opposite is true.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:36 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Except the EU don't seem to have conceded anything.
It appears to be May's withdrawal agreement that the majority thought was bad for the UK, with a change to the Customs border that satisfies the EU.
It hardly helps us keep the Union together. (ie. If there's a Customs Union for Ireland then why not one for Scotland too?)
Because if they are stupid enough to vote for independence, we won't be trying to stop them and they would have a massive fight to get back into the EU, with a euro to work with?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by taio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:38 am

summitclaret wrote:As I said last week, he will have planned for some concessions for weeks. The people negotiating know what they are doing and want a proper brexit not a brino.
This is right. And there are people who are at the same time criticising BJ for making concessions; are strongly opposed to no deal so you'd think they'd compliment BJ for showing compromise to try get a deal done; and have said he didn't actually want a deal and was just playing a game.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:40 am

Mala591 wrote:If this new WA is agreed and presented to parliament I will be watching with great interest how Labour MPs in leave majority constituencies vote (yes Julie Cooper this includes you).
Labour are struggling here.

If Labour go with the deal, they'll lose remainers to Lib Dems.
If they stop the deal, and stick with their plans of renegotiating a completely new deal, followed by 2nd ref, they'll lose anyone thinking "Start this all over again? Another referendum and everything?? For the Love of God, why do you torture us so?"

Both of these groups contain large numbers of voters. I don't know what Labour are supposed to do now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:42 am

taio wrote:This is right. And there are people who are at the same time criticising BJ for making concessions; are strongly opposed to no deal so you'd think they'd compliment BJ for showing compromise to try get a deal done; and have said he didn't actually want a deal and was just playing a game.
They are grasping at straws. Some are coming round to reality though which is good because I want them to accept we are now probably leaving and move on.
Last edited by summitclaret on Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:45 am

If it be your will wrote:Labour are struggling here.

If Labour go with the deal, they'll lose remainers to Lib Dems.
If they stop the deal, and stick with their plans of renegotiating a completely new deal, followed by 2nd ref, they'll lose anyone thinking "Start this all over again? Another referendum and everything?? For the Love of God, why do you torture us so?"

Both of these groups contain large numbers of voters. I don't know what Labour are supposed to do now.

Ditch Corbyn and his cronies and become a credible opposition. They deserve to decimated for trying to play Brexit both ways and saying that they want a GE for 2 years. Bet they won't vote for one even if a new deal goes through.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:48 am

summitclaret wrote:Ditch Corbyn and his cronies and become a credible opposition. They deserve to decimated for trying to play Brexit both ways and saying that they want a GE for 2 years. Bet they won't vote for one even if a new deal goes through.
Then they'll lose all the socialists, and end up like the Social Democratic parties in France, Greece, Germany etc, gently sliding towards obscurity and irrelevance.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:51 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:What are the changes you think might result in disaster?
For a start there is a lot of complex trade negotiations ahead of us and we might find that economically we end up far worse than we are today as part of the EU.

I also have concern that a lot protections and regulatory standards that especially help those towards the bottom of society will be sacrificed by the rich Tory elitists in power once we are free from the EU

Like I said its great that you guys see it so positively and I hope it is onwards and upwards from here but personally I dont think it will be and if it isn't then its important that the right people carry the can

CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:54 am

AndyClaret wrote:Just heard a good description of the deal by Graham Brady, it's like Mays chequers proposal, but only for N Ireland.
The Chequers white paper contained a commitment to frictionless trade in goods through a common rulebook. There is a huge difference between just NI doing that and the entire UK, which would be like staying in the EU.

Chequers kept us in the single market for all goods. The EU rejected Chequers because it would have been cherry picking the four freedoms. Chequers was May’s opening gambit, knowing it would get watered down. A non-watered down NI version would be excellent.

Brady may be technically correct but there is a huge difference and the EU have definitely capitulated on the splitting of the 4 freedoms - our capitulation would be the red line over NI being exactly like GB. I emphasise it would be the right thing to do for both sides to capitulate on these things, and if the media suggest it is Boris alone who caved, frankly, who cares?

Right_winger
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:56 am

If it be your will wrote:Labour are struggling here.

If Labour go with the deal, they'll lose remainers to Lib Dems.
If they stop the deal, and stick with their plans of renegotiating a completely new deal, followed by 2nd ref, they'll lose anyone thinking "Start this all over again? Another referendum and everything?? For the Love of God, why do you torture us so?"

Both of these groups contain large numbers of voters. I don't know what Labour are supposed to do now.
It would appear that Cummings has played a strategic masterstroke here.

BJ and his teams primary objective was/is an election. Brexit is being used as a vehicle to deliver a Tory majority.

I’m not overly happy with what is a NI only backstop, however so long as the people of NI are given an opportunity to express their democratic opinion then its as good as we are ever going to get without going full WTO for the whole of the UK

Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:59 am

Free political advice for Labour:

Let your MPs have a free vote on the new WA (assuming we get that far)

Get Brexit phase 1 out of the way and campaign for workers rights, environmental protection etc in the political declaration

Focus your election campaign away from Brexit and on your new socialist policies

Spijed
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:01 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I emphasise it would be the right thing to do for both sides to capitulate on these things, and if the media suggest it is Boris alone who caved, frankly, who cares?
Won't that matter with regards to the narrative and Nigel Farage trying to persuade voters to still vote for the Brexit party at the next election?

If it's seen as Boris completely giving way he might get a bit of traction and damage Tory votes in marginal seats.

If Boris wants to decimate the Brexit party vote surely he'll need to be seen as a hero to them?

Spijed
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:03 pm

Right_winger wrote:however so long as the people of NI are given an opportunity to express their democratic opinion then its as good as we are ever going to get without going full WTO for the whole of the UK
Why do Brexiteers care about what happens in Northern Ireland if it gets a majority Tory government?

summitclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:07 pm

If it be your will wrote:Then they'll lose all the socialists, and end up like the Social Democratic parties in France, Greece, Germany etc, gently sliding towards obscurity and irrelevance.
The blairites would be better merging with the LD and leaving the far left to rot. No chance of displacing BJ if he pulls a new deal off with Corbyn etl.

summitclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:08 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:For a start there is a lot of complex trade negotiations ahead of us and we might find that economically we end up far worse than we are today as part of the EU.

I also have concern that a lot protections and regulatory standards that especially help those towards the bottom of society will be sacrificed by the rich Tory elitists in power once we are free from the EU

Like I said its great that you guys see it so positively and I hope it is onwards and upwards from here but personally I dont think it will be and if it isn't then its important that the right people carry the can
Fair enough and you can vote them out if it goes wrong.
This user liked this post: Devils_Advocate

summitclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:20 pm

Spijed wrote:Why do Brexiteers care about what happens in Northern Ireland if it gets a majority Tory government?
Because its part of the UK

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