Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:29 pm

taio wrote:We'll have to wait a few days for the detail to be confirmed. The point about the backstop being temporary (or not) was clearly a key reason why May's deal failed. Those who opposed it were not convinced it would end up being temporary, or at least the EU would have much less appetite for finding a replacement solution had the backstop already been agreed. Therefore, changing the backstop is fundamental if we are to now get a deal.
Don't really disagree with that, but my point stands that from all that we see and hear there will be no change to the widely "despised" May deal. It's just that an alternate solution to the border has been proposed, and the EU always said that if we came up with a solution then they would look at / accept it.
Johnson's team seem to have proposed a change to the border that May, (who at the time was being held to ransom by the DUP) was not prepared to concede. This removes the need for the temporary backstop.
It will be very difficult for the ERG etc to accept this, but if they now believe that "No deal " can't pass Parliament, and that it's this option or remain then they will have a decision to make in the next week.
This - as I've repeatedly said - is why Farage is so opposed to it.
All the other bits like paying the £39 billion are still there. (Or at least I haven't read anything that contradicts this, and I've asked 3 times now for anyone to come up with evidence that contradicts this, and as yet none have responded).

nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:30 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Why are people saying Boris's deal is a harder Brexit than May's if they are exactly the same ?
Honestly no idea.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:38 pm

I haven't fully read up on this so no detail but isnt the forecasting around Johnson deal being harder on the economy than May's something to do with the red tape costs and potential trade impacts around Johnson not looking to keep as much regulatory alignment with the EU as May was prepared to do?

Not 100% on this and dont know if this is a difference between the two deals or part of the phase 2 negotiation approaches once the first deal is reached.

If im wrong on this one happy to be put right

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:47 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I haven't fully read up on this so no detail but isnt the forecasting around Johnson deal being harder on the economy than May's something to do with the red tape costs and potential trade impacts around Johnson not looking to keep as much regulatory alignment with the EU as May was prepared to do?

Not 100% on this and dont know if this is a difference between the two deals or part of the phase 2 negotiation approaches once the first deal is reached.

If im wrong on this one happy to be put right
Partly this, less alignment gives more scope for free trade deals.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:11 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Partly this, less alignment gives more scope for free trade deals.
Yes that's what i understood as what is seen as the positive to less alignment

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:00 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Morning Lancs. I really wish you would stop parroting this line and stick to your sensible points. ClaretAndy put up a picture of that thread yesterday from the Rahuel chap who used to advise Theresa May, explaining exactly why this deal has crucial differences. Argue it is a bad deal by all means, but don’t argue it is the same deal.
Apologies Crosspool, hadn't seen Andys post so caught up on that.

Backstop changed to something else, but WA the same deal then is probably fair then?

Either way its better than a "No Deal", but the fact that the DUP and the ERG look like they have decided to vote against it anyway suggests the problem are still there.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Apologies Crosspool, hadn't seen Andys post so caught up on that.

Backstop changed to something else, but WA the same deal then is probably fair then?

Either way its better than a "No Deal", but the fact that the DUP and the ERG look like they have decided to vote against it anyway suggests the problem are still there.
You can't say it's better than a no deal despite the forecast/opinions from economists, it's fair to say it's likely to be better than a no deal, it's absolutely impossible to be 100%, a minority believe leaving without a deal will open up more opportunities if we completely do a hard brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:38 pm

Johnson's proposal is (allegedly) that ALL imports into NI pay EU customs tax. If the import stays in NI then the importer can apply for a rebate if the UK tax is lower than the EU tax. If the import passes across the border into ROI then it doesn't matter because EU customs tax has already been paid.

More complicated for NI businesses but IT solutions should minimise the 'trauma'.

Thus there is no customs border between NI and ROI removing the need for a backstop.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:53 pm

FAO Nil Desperandom
Attachments
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Spijed
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:56 pm

AndyClaret wrote:FAO Nil Desperandom
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... se-dilemma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Apologies Crosspool, hadn't seen Andys post so caught up on that.

Backstop changed to something else, but WA the same deal then is probably fair then?

Either way its better than a "No Deal", but the fact that the DUP and the ERG look like they have decided to vote against it anyway suggests the problem are still there.
Well its crunch time for the ERG as well. If BJ gets a deal along the lines ir appears to be then they need to be told its vote for it or you loose the whip. Also the ones already out need telling that you can get the whip back if you vote it, apart from Grieve who can rot in hell for me.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:00 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You can't say it's better than a no deal despite the forecast/opinions from economists, it's fair to say it's likely to be better than a no deal, it's absolutely impossible to be 100%, a minority believe leaving without a deal will open up more opportunities if we completely do a hard brexit.
Hmm, a very small and ever diminishing minority. But you keep the faith Jakub.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:05 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Hmm, a very small and ever diminishing minority. But you keep the faith Jakub.
I wouldn’t say diminishing the longer this plays out anything but, we are naturally risk averse, Some have the mindset have the courage of your convictions & fortune favours the brave, I know soundbite cliches but honestly some would just go for it & see where we end up you never know for certain.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:09 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Another Remoaner with selective memory loss!




Car plant regions defy bosses’ Brexit vote warnings
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/new ... ay-EU.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings: Firms' bases vote to leave despite call to stay in EU

Fears that the boom in British car manufacturing would be derailed by Brexit failed to sway voters in the UK’s main production centres.

From Sunderland to Luton, Solihull in the Midlands and Bridgend in Wales, where thousands of automotive jobs are based, the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.

But just a few days later Sunderland, the home of Nissan, delivered its verdict: a resounding 61.3 per cent of people voted for Brexit regardless."

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant
https://www.ft.com/content/900d015a-3ba ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for that Ringo but I do have one small critique; nowhere in that first linked article does it say that the Nissan plant in Sunderland would close in the event of leave winning

The second link is behind a paywall. Now I don't believe for one minute that you pay a subscription to the FT, and not copying and pasting from that source makes me think you haven't read it yourself but just searched forca headline that you hoped would provide some evidence.

So, can I ask again, can you tell me who said the plant would close?
Last edited by TheFamilyCat on Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:10 pm

BJ needs every tory apart from Grieve to back him on the vote. That is more important than actually getting it through imo. He can then go into a GE saying he did his best and the remainer HOC stopped him and it was anti democratic.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:21 pm

summitclaret wrote:Well its crunch time for the ERG as well. If BJ gets a deal along the lines ir appears to be then they need to be told its vote for it or you loose the whip. Also the ones already out need telling that you can get the whip back if you vote it, apart from Grieve who can rot in hell for me.
Rory Stewart won't be back either - he's joined the Liberals and become a full-on Remain At All Costs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:24 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

To summarise, workers defied the warnings of, union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies, that their jobs would be on the line, should they vote Leave.

Fast forward to Thursday this week.

The new Nissan Juke rolled off the Sunderland production line.

Remoaners left looking both silly and heartbroken.


Dry your eyes daft lad.
I see you've already been questioned on this and didn't provide anything that answered the question. And to add another question, if I may: you claimed it was remainers who said the plant would close" but the above says it was "unions, manufacturers and industry bodies" that warned of potential job losses (not factory closure).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:28 pm

dsr wrote:Rory Stewart won't be back either - he's joined the Liberals and become a full-on Remain At All Costs.
So a tory will win Penrith then.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:31 pm

summitclaret wrote:So a tory will win Penrith then.
Considering he's said he's going to stand for the Mayor of London, you are most likely correct in your assumption. ;)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:13 pm

AndyClaret wrote:FAO Nil Desperandom
So like I said then:
No changes to the Withdrawal Agreement.
All those points appear to be related to either the NI border issue, (removing the backstop) or the future (trade) relationship, which is all up for negotiation in the future anyway.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:16 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So like I said then:
No changes to the Withdrawal Agreement.
All those points appear to be related to either the NI border issue, (removing the backstop) or the future (trade) relationship, which is all up for negotiation in the future anyway.
So you mean this deal is similar to May's deal, except with this one there's no UK-wide backstop?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:33 pm

If it be your will wrote:So you mean this deal is similar to May's deal, except with this one there's no UK-wide backstop?
Firstly, the talk on here yesterday was about it being similar to the white paper devised at Chequers - May’s final deal was different to Chequers, so it is actually three things we are comparing.

Secondly, there isn’t yet a deal and we don’t know the content - as a minimum the following will be VERY different:
  • 1. The backstop covering the whole UK, maybe indefinitely, replaced by a NI dual customs approach that will still allow NI to take part in new trade deals while having open borders with the RoI
    2. The future relationship will be outlined as a free trade agreement rather than a de facto joint customs union (the May document described the transition period as a starting point for long term future negotiations
Those two things in isolation are HUGE differences - I would note though that Britain In A Changing Europe whose slide Andy put up are very pro European (though allegedly impartial) and their other slides today have some dubious figures in them (the guy who wrote them admitted to making some big assumptions on regulation, migration etc).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:47 pm

If it be your will wrote:So you mean this deal is similar to May's deal, except with this one there's no UK-wide backstop?
Well - essentially yes.
To clarify: my point is that the backstop wasn't part of the deal. It was a temporary measure proposed by the UK until a solution to the border issue could be found.
The Irish Sea border was proposed at the time, but the DUP and ERG were vehemently opposed to it, and May - who was being propped up by the DUP at the time, said that it would never happen.
The Parliamentary arithmetic is much different now, but Johnson is gambling on enough Labour MPs and members of the ERG backing it, so that he won't need the DUP.
The border solution should be acceptable to the EU, (which means there's no need for the backstop), so it's up to the ERG and Labour rebels now to get this over the line.
So yes, May's WA but with no need for the backstop, which as I've pointed out several times is essentially the Brady Amendment to May's Deal of Jan 29th 2019.
The amendment called on the Government to renegotiate the provisions in May's Withdrawal Agreement relating to the Northern Ireland backstop, and replace it with ‘alternative arrangements’. The amendment was passed with the official support of the Government by 317 to 301.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s not my argument. But you were asked where anyone has said the Nissan plant would close, you didn’t supply any evidence of that.

What , exactly do you think the following meant?

Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings

the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.

But just a few days later Sunderland, the home of Nissan, delivered its verdict: a resounding 61.3 per cent of people voted for Brexit regardless."

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant
https://www.ft.com/content/900d015a-3ba ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You can pretend that workers weren't told their jobs would be on the line/ at risk / in peril/ redundant and that plants would shut down, if they dared to vote Leave. You really can.

However, they were.

And I get it , I really do. It must really irk you that the new Nissan Juke rolled off the production line last week.


I feel your pain

:lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:51 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Thanks for that Ringo but I do have one small critique; nowhere in that first linked article does it say that the Nissan plant in Sunderland would close in the event of leave winning

The second link is behind a paywall. Now I don't believe for one minute that you pay a subscription to the FT, and not copying and pasting from that source makes me think you haven't read it yourself but just searched forca headline that you hoped would provide some evidence.

So, can I ask again, can you tell me who said the plant would close?
What , exactly do you think the following meant?

Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings

the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.

But just a few days later Sunderland, the home of Nissan, delivered its verdict: a resounding 61.3 per cent of people voted for Brexit regardless."

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant
https://www.ft.com/content/900d015a-3ba ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You can pretend that workers weren't told their jobs would be on the line/ at risk / in peril/ redundant and that plants would shut down, if they dared to vote Leave. You really can.

However, they were.

And I get it , I really do. It must really irk you that the new Nissan Juke rolled off the production line last week.


I feel your pain

:lol:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:57 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:I see you've already been questioned on this and didn't provide anything that answered the question. And to add another question, if I may: you claimed it was remainers who said the plant would close" but the above says it was "unions, manufacturers and industry bodies" that warned of potential job losses (not factory closure).
What , exactly do you think the following meant?

Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings

the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.

But just a few days later Sunderland, the home of Nissan, delivered its verdict: a resounding 61.3 per cent of people voted for Brexit regardless."

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant
https://www.ft.com/content/900d015a-3ba ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You can pretend that workers weren't told their jobs would be on the line/ at risk / in peril/ redundant and that plants would shut down, if they dared to vote Leave. You really can.

However, they were.

And I get it , I really do. It must really irk you that the new Nissan Juke rolled off the production line last week.


I feel your pain

:lol: :lol:

(You can have an extra one for desperately trying to kid yourself that , the threat of imminent job losses, if they had the audacity to vote Leave , came from someone else, it had less of an impact, when they put an "X" next to Leave)

Remoaners Project Fear were all over it


:lol:

No man is so blind , than the Remoaner that refuses to see.....
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:05 am

As a brexiteer, I just can't help feel that if our resident remoaners were near a TV or radio last week and overheard the news that the New Nissan Juke was rolling off the production line up in Sunderland. They rushed to turn it off or put their fingers on their ears screaming "Go away, go away. No no no! It cant be happening! I cant hear it! I wont hear it! No no no! This wasn't supposed to happen! Where's Eddie Izzard when you need him!?"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:13 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:As a brexiteer, I just can't help feel that if our resident remoaners were near a TV or radio last week and overheard the news that the New Nissan Juke was rolling off the production line up in Sunderland. They rushed to turn it off or put their fingers on their ears screaming "Go away, go away. No no no! It cant be happening! I cant hear it! I wont hear it! No no no! This wasn't supposed to happen! Where's Eddie Izzard when you need him!?"
Wait, you’re a brexiteer?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:17 am

Rileybobs wrote:Wait, you’re a brexiteer?
And a HUGE Nissan Juke fan.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:16 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:What , exactly do you think the following meant?

Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings

the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.

But just a few days later Sunderland, the home of Nissan, delivered its verdict: a resounding 61.3 per cent of people voted for Brexit regardless."

After a resounding Brexit vote, Sunderland fears for Nissan plant
https://www.ft.com/content/900d015a-3ba ... b487ebd80a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


You can pretend that workers weren't told their jobs would be on the line/ at risk / in peril/ redundant and that plants would shut down, if they dared to vote Leave. You really can.

However, they were.

And I get it , I really do. It must really irk you that the new Nissan Juke rolled off the production line last week.


I feel your pain

:lol: :lol:

(You can have an extra one for desperately trying to kid yourself that , the threat of imminent job losses, if they had the audacity to vote Leave , came from someone else, it had less of an impact, when they put an "X" next to Leave)

Remoaners Project Fear were all over it


:lol:

No man is so blind , than the Remoaner that refuses to see.....
Ah, ringo. I wondered if you'd be back when the pubs shut.

Seems once more you've failed to provide any evidence that anyone said that the plant would close.

You can pretend that workers weren't told their jobs would be on the line/ at risk / in peril/ redundant and that plants would shut down, if they dared to vote Leave. You really can.

However, they were.
I haven't contested that there were warnings that jobs could be at risk. It seems that translating "jobs could be at risk" to "the plant will close" is purely in your mind (and probably common amongst brexiteers).

Ironic isn't it really when you are the one accusing others of "project fear"?

Ps, I don't need you to tell me about the Nissan Juke again as I'm well aware of it and it isn't relevant to this particular exchange (which is about you providing some evidence to support something you have claimed in case you'd forgottten).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:44 am

dsr wrote:Rory Stewart won't be back either - he's joined the Liberals and become a full-on Remain At All Costs.
Did he?

I'd love to see your source for that!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:46 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:What , exactly do you think the following meant?

Car plant regions defy bosses’ vote warnings

the electorate voted to leave the EU despite the warnings of union bosses, manufacturers and industry bodies."



"The British car industry issued a clear warning: leaving the EU could put jobs at risk.
Erm.... it means jobs are at risk. You seem to be confusing that with the plant shutting down.

You must really **** yourself at the e end of every season when we release players if that’s the connection you make. Oh no! They’re shutting the club down!!
This user liked this post: Bordeauxclaret

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:48 am

Not a complete shock to wake up this morning to a lot more doubts about the plan than on Friday.

Once more and more gets out, then more and more issues will appear that could stop a deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:50 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not a complete shock to wake up this morning to a lot more doubts about the plan than on Friday.

Once more and more gets out, then more and more issues will appear that could stop a deal.
From the RTE:

Following a briefing by Michel Barnier to EU27 ambassadors, the main problems are:
* the sytem of rebates is very complex
* the plans won't be ready by the end of the transition
* it's not clear how you ensure goods that are destined to remain in NI stay in NI

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:58 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not a complete shock to wake up this morning to a lot more doubts about the plan than on Friday.

Once more and more gets out, then more and more issues will appear that could stop a deal.
Hope springs eternal!

CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:02 am

Another thread by that former May adviser on Europe, suggesting answers to the EU’s concerns:

https://twitter.com/raoulruparel/status ... 08068?s=21

Some of the concerns will be genuine, some will be game playing. Ultimately though, if there fails to be a deal, Johnson will say this gives us a strong message that any kind of proper Brexit is impossible to negotiate and we need a hard Brexit instead.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:03 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Hope springs eternal!
Most seem to be technical rather than deal breakers, but it does appear to hinge on just how far the EU will go to make NI a "very special case" within both the EU and the UK.

Alarming amount of guff around as well about all the FTAs we can sign, all from very Brexity people and all of them ignoring that they don't even come close to replacing the deals we have lost.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:11 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Another thread by that former May adviser on Europe, suggesting answers to the EU’s concerns:

https://twitter.com/raoulruparel/status ... 08068?s=21

Some of the concerns will be genuine, some will be game playing. Ultimately though, if there fails to be a deal, Johnson will say this gives us a strong message that any kind of proper Brexit is impossible to negotiate and we need a hard Brexit instead.
I think it would be unwise to put any issues down to "game playing" at this stage.

End of the day, the deal has to be agreed between the EU and UK within two days.

Even if it agreed, you have to convince everyone who has doubts in about another two days or it doesn't get past Parliament.

And again, if Johnson really thought a deal was close and doable, he'd asked for an extension to give it the time required.

If he did that, then Parliament (as they have always done) will pull back from whatever they have got planned.

And if Johnson and his ministers keep saying that we are leaving on Oct 31st, then the suspicion remains that he's not serious about a deal.

Johnson could end this by asking for a "technical extension" to finish off the deal, and only the zealots would have an issue with that.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Most seem to be technical rather than deal breakers, but it does appear to hinge on just how far the EU will go to make NI a "very special case" within both the EU and the UK.

Alarming amount of guff around as well about all the FTAs we can sign, all from very Brexity people and all of them ignoring that they don't even come close to replacing the deals we have lost.
If you was to weigh the pros & cons up as a balancing act & where we are now & more importantly where we are likely to finish up in terms of the deal, the case for a hard brexit increases, DUP say NI must stay in the UK CU, I just think it’s a mistake in having too many concessions & trying to keep everybody happy, it must be getting close to the point of thinking, sod it let’s be brave & just have a do, sorry for speaking blunt.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:17 am

This one is very good and very uncomfortable for the UK, from John Harris in the Guardian

Hell, I used to read "Warlord" and "Battle" when I was a kid but my interest sparked by those comics led me to spend decades reading about the war and I came to a completely different conclusion to it than most.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -nostalgia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:28 am

Jakubclaret wrote:If you was to weigh the pros & cons up as a balancing act & where we are now & more importantly where we are likely to finish up in terms of the deal, the case for a hard brexit increases, DUP say NI must stay in the UK CU, I just think it’s a mistake in having too many concessions & trying to keep everybody happy, it must be getting close to the point of thinking, sod it let’s be brave & just have a do, sorry for speaking blunt.
Why are you apologising for saying the same thing you've said since 2016?

You opinion has not shifted one bit. Not even a millimetre.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This one is very good and very uncomfortable for the UK, from John Harris in the Guardian

Hell, I used to read "Warlord" and "Battle" when I was a kid but my interest sparked by those comics led me to spend decades reading about the war and I came to a completely different conclusion to it than most.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -nostalgia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quite a funny read although far fetched.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:03 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This one is very good and very uncomfortable for the UK, from John Harris in the Guardian

Hell, I used to read "Warlord" and "Battle" when I was a kid but my interest sparked by those comics led me to spend decades reading about the war and I came to a completely different conclusion to it than most.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -nostalgia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"To state the obvious, much of the blame for this country’s enduring mixture of hubris, nostalgia and Europhobia can be laid at the door of the tabloid press."

I often think the power of the press in seeding ideas, is underestimated. I despair when I read some of the genuine headlines slapped across the laps of the UK population over breakfast. And it's certainly not just the tabloids:

EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU – Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry– The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record
EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail
UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts – Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers – Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers – Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU – The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:53 am

Yeah but what about Project Fear?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:15 am

Monday Quiz - How many of those newspaper headlines did Jakub believe?

To add some counter balance some reports did warn that leaving the EU could have a negative impact on the car industry which caused some idiots to think that meant the Sunderland Nissan factory was going to shut down completely

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:33 am

This is quite good on possible Conservative strategies after this week

https://nicktyrone.com/brexit-being-red ... nt-policy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:37 am

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-re ... ke-review/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New BRITISH BUILT Nissan Juke getting very good reviews in the motoring press

There is still hope for British industry if a few more of us were to support it...

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:39 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is quite good on possible Conservative strategies after this week

https://nicktyrone.com/brexit-being-red ... nt-policy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Its a decent read but it lost me with all this talk of people being willing to buy into some kind of Brexit fantasy - as if

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:41 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think it would be unwise to put any issues down to "game playing" at this stage.

End of the day, the deal has to be agreed between the EU and UK within two days.

Even if it agreed, you have to convince everyone who has doubts in about another two days or it doesn't get past Parliament.

And again, if Johnson really thought a deal was close and doable, he'd asked for an extension to give it the time required.

If he did that, then Parliament (as they have always done) will pull back from whatever they have got planned.

And if Johnson and his ministers keep saying that we are leaving on Oct 31st, then the suspicion remains that he's not serious about a deal.

Johnson could end this by asking for a "technical extension" to finish off the deal, and only the zealots would have an issue with that.
Apparently Barnier briefed diplomats last night that there are major problems with the U.K. proposal but they will be solved if we accept the NI backstop.

(despite the dual customs approach being tentatively agreed by the U.K. Govt, the Irish Govt, the ERG and the DUP)

If that isn’t political game playing I don’t know what is. Ditto, Merkel saying last night that GB will be a new rival, whereas she could have said the UK.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:46 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Apparently Barnier briefed diplomats last night that there are major problems with the U.K. proposal but they will be solved if we accept the NI backstop.

(despite the dual customs approach being tentatively agreed by the U.K. Govt, the Irish Govt, the ERG and the DUP)

If that isn’t political game playing I don’t know what is. Ditto, Merkel saying last night that GB will be a new rival, whereas she could have said the UK.
There isn't anything official that the dual customs approach has been agreed by anyone is there?

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