Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:It's still the morning, silly.

Yeah, but the group is this afternoon.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:03 pm

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 62851.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here we go. Johnson now climbing down from his do or die position, if a deal hasn't been reached by Saturday. His cast iron guarantee - the one that got him elected as leader of his party - being tossed aside. The Telegraph, and Mail, and Sun will all be spinning this as a pragmatic thing to do, but a lie is a lie. I'm sure Hunt, Javid, and Gove are sitting there regretting their honesty on the matter, whereas Stewart can say; "I told you so"

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:04 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote: Wow this thread has really lit up!

There really is a lot of miffed sounding brothers of the Church of the Latter Day Europhile!

Who is miffed and why?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:05 pm

willsclarets wrote:Tell me why it makes sense putting the British PM in the position to call it proportionate in your scenario? If we make this about Britain, then the British PM is the one instigating the violence you muppet

Yes or no?

If the Scots, want to leave the UK and during a referendum they were met with this level of violence and brutality by the police. Would you agree with a British PM who described this level of violence

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as "proportionate"

Yes or no?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:07 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Yeah, but the group is this afternoon.

Fabulous!

Personally I dont need to be in a group.

I've been laughing and pointing at you lot for nearly 3 and a half years !

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:18 pm

Tall Paul wrote:These officials and workers you're talking about are the ones who are telling us that no deal Brexit would be terrible for them. There was even a statement from Honda in the post you quoted and replied to.

Also, didn't you say you'd answer a question on deregulation "later"?

The officials & workers are probably reluctant to adapt within the workplace & realise in the event of a no deal, it’s likely for a short period of time the workload would be likely to increase until the initial teething problems settle, any established system promotes a comfort zone feeling within the personnel. If you could provide specific links from workers who work at the airports or especially workers manning the custom barriers I’d appreciate, as it never happened to you within the workplace new ideas & rules being introduced that seem to impinge upon the efficiency of the workplace, you become disgruntled & reluctantly accept the changes & gradually you realise that the workplace becomes more efficient than it was originally when the new ideas & rules introduced settle down? It’s happened to me over the course of my working career you then later realise & accept that the ideas & rules introduced were introduced for a very good reason & long term you become more efficient at your job & happier as a end result.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:19 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... arns-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a more serious threat to our democracy than alleged voter fraud.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:28 pm

AndrewJB wrote:This is how to register to vote if you have no fixed address:

https://www.crisis.org.uk/get-help/info ... -homeless/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well every day is a school day. Didn’t know that.

Having read through it and looked at the forms, that’s wide open to abuse.

I agree it is a good idea, but effectively you don’t need to have any evidence you are who you say you are.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:32 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Yes or no?

If the Scots, want to leave the UK and during a referendum they were met with this level of violence and brutality by the police. Would you agree with a British PM who described this level of violence

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as "proportionate"

Yes or no?

Why should I engage with that question, when it makes no sense whatsoever putting the British PM in that scenario? This violence is the preservation of national sovereignty and laws of the land. Who is instigating the violence? Indeed why should I engage with any of your questions when you don't engage with any of mine in previous posts on this. But, just for a laugh..

I don't defend the words of Timmermans (I note that you didn't even provide quote or context, just charcterised "the whole EU" as condoning the violence. I'll put what he actually said below, but ironically for brexiteers who go on and on and on about us making our own laws - this reads to me like someone unwilling to challenge the laws of land in a member state and their government. That said, I do think he should've gone further in condemning the violence (I'm sure I'd find plenty of quotes to support that too) and EU states across the board need to be more consistent and vocal. EU member states and the commission are not blameless in this, but neither is the concept of a federalist Europe. You are joining dots that can't be joined, and as I said, shooting yourself in the foot.

Answer me this, should the EU have the powers to intervene with Spanish constitution in order to facilitate a legal bid from Catalonia for independence?

Timmerman's quote:

"We have shaped our democratic societies based on three principles: democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights ... The three need each other, they cannot exclude each other." He continued, "If you remove one pillar, then the others will fall too."

"Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument," he said.

"None of us want to see violence in our societies," Timmermans went on. "However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force."

Now, back to how this relates to your love of national sovereignty. Care to answer the below post?

Isn't this an instance where the determination of Spain to protect their national sovereignty is resulting in police violence and brutality of the Catalan people? If the UK government and police were to treat the Scottish people in a similar way in their quest for independence - who would you blame? The EU? This example is not a criticism of a federal Europe, which Catalonia could still join as an independent state. This example actually supports the words on that plaque.

Quote from 2017 when the Catalan government approved a referendum vote:
Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, vowed earlier on Thursday to “stop at nothing” to prevent Catalonia’s independence referendum, as his attorney general prepared to prosecute Catalan leaders.

In a blistering address, Mr Rajoy accused Catalonia's parliament of an “intolerable act of disobedience” in passing its referendum law, insisting it had violated the Spanish constitution.

“The consultation is not going to happen in any case,” he said. “We are defending national sovereignty.."

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:37 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Fabulous!

Personally I dont need to be in a group.

I've been laughing and pointing at you lot for nearly 3 and a half years !

Have you seen Joker yet?

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:41 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:The officials & workers are probably reluctant to adapt within the workplace & realise in the event of a no deal, it’s likely for a short period of time the workload would be likely to increase until the initial teething problems settle, any established system promotes a comfort zone feeling within the personnel. If you could provide specific links from workers who work at the airports or especially workers manning the custom barriers I’d appreciate, as it never happened to you within the workplace new ideas & rules being introduced that seem to impinge upon the efficiency of the workplace, you become disgruntled & reluctantly accept the changes & gradually you realise that the workplace becomes more efficient than it was originally when the new ideas & rules introduced settle down? It’s happened to me over the course of my working career you then later realise & accept that the ideas & rules introduced were introduced for a very good reason & long term you become more efficient at your job & happier as a end result.

You need to slow down, I'm getting lost in the detail.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Fabulous!

Personally I dont need to be in a group.

I've been laughing and pointing at you lot for nearly 3 and a half years !

You've been laughing at us for repeatedly pointing out that you are wrong and have made things up?

On the one hand that is odd behaviour but on the other, it's probably easier than admitting it.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:45 pm

willsclarets wrote:Why should I engage with that question, when it makes no sense whatsoever putting the British PM in that scenario? This violence is the preservation of national sovereignty and laws of the land. Who is instigating the violence? Indeed why should I engage with any of your questions when you don't engage with any of mine in previous posts on this. But, just for a laugh..

I don't defend the words of Timmermans (I note that you didn't even provide quote or context, just charcterised "the whole EU" as condoning the violence. I'll put what he actually said below, but ironically for brexiteers who go on and on and on about us making our own laws - this reads to me like someone unwilling to challenge the laws of land in a member state and their government. That said, I do think he should've gone further in condemning the violence (I'm sure I'd find plenty of quotes to support that too) and EU states across the board need to be more consistent and vocal. EU member states and the commission are not blameless in this, but neither is the concept of a federalist Europe. You are joining dots that can't be joined, and as I said, shooting yourself in the foot.

Answer me this, should the EU have the powers to intervene with Spanish constitution in order to facilitate a legal bid from Catalonia for independence?

Timmerman's quote:

"We have shaped our democratic societies based on three principles: democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights ... The three need each other, they cannot exclude each other." He continued, "If you remove one pillar, then the others will fall too."

"Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument," he said.

"None of us want to see violence in our societies," Timmermans went on. "However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force."

Now, back to how this relates to your love of national sovereignty. Care to answer the below post?

Isn't this an instance where the determination of Spain to protect their national sovereignty is resulting in police violence and brutality of the Catalan people? If the UK government and police were to treat the Scottish people in a similar way in their quest for independence - who would you blame? The EU? This example is not a criticism of a federal Europe, which Catalonia could still join as an independent state. This example actually supports the words on that plaque.

Quote from 2017 when the Catalan government approved a referendum vote:
Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, vowed earlier on Thursday to “stop at nothing” to prevent Catalonia’s independence referendum, as his attorney general prepared to prosecute Catalan leaders.

In a blistering address, Mr Rajoy accused Catalonia's parliament of an “intolerable act of disobedience” in passing its referendum law, insisting it had violated the Spanish constitution.

“The consultation is not going to happen in any case,” he said. “We are defending national sovereignty.."

I'm looking forward to the reply to this.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:46 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:I'm looking forward to the reply to this.

Just read up the thread, it’s bound to be there already.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:09 pm

willsclarets wrote:Why should I engage with that question, when it makes no sense whatsoever putting the British PM in that scenario? This violence is the preservation of national sovereignty and laws of the land. Who is instigating the violence? Indeed why should I engage with any of your questions when you don't engage with any of mine in previous posts on this. But, just for a laugh..

I don't defend the words of Timmermans (I note that you didn't even provide quote or context, just charcterised "the whole EU" as condoning the violence. I'll put what he actually said below, but ironically for brexiteers who go on and on and on about us making our own laws - this reads to me like someone unwilling to challenge the laws of land in a member state and their government. That said, I do think he should've gone further in condemning the violence (I'm sure I'd find plenty of quotes to support that too) and EU states across the board need to be more consistent and vocal. EU member states and the commission are not blameless in this, but neither is the concept of a federalist Europe. You are joining dots that can't be joined, and as I said, shooting yourself in the foot.

Answer me this, should the EU have the powers to intervene with Spanish constitution in order to facilitate a legal bid from Catalonia for independence?

Timmerman's quote:

"We have shaped our democratic societies based on three principles: democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights ... The three need each other, they cannot exclude each other." He continued, "If you remove one pillar, then the others will fall too."

"Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument," he said.

"None of us want to see violence in our societies," Timmermans went on. "However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force."

Now, back to how this relates to your love of national sovereignty. Care to answer the below post?

Isn't this an instance where the determination of Spain to protect their national sovereignty is resulting in police violence and brutality of the Catalan people? If the UK government and police were to treat the Scottish people in a similar way in their quest for independence - who would you blame? The EU? This example is not a criticism of a federal Europe, which Catalonia could still join as an independent state. This example actually supports the words on that plaque.

Quote from 2017 when the Catalan government approved a referendum vote:
Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, vowed earlier on Thursday to “stop at nothing” to prevent Catalonia’s independence referendum, as his attorney general prepared to prosecute Catalan leaders.

In a blistering address, Mr Rajoy accused Catalonia's parliament of an “intolerable act of disobedience” in passing its referendum law, insisting it had violated the Spanish constitution.

“The consultation is not going to happen in any case,” he said. “We are defending national sovereignty.."

I get it. You wont condemn this

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because your beloved EU didn't and described it as "proportionate"

Denying there would be clear parallels with this and a potential 2nd Scottish referendum where you wont give me a straight , yes or no, answer just makes it more embarrassing for you.

Fine.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:12 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I get it. You wont condemn this

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because your beloved EU didn't and described it as "proportionate"

Denying there would be clear parallels with this and a potential 2nd Scottish referendum where you wont give me a straight , yes or no, answer just makes it more embarrassing for you.

Fine.

QED

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:14 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:You've been laughing at us for repeatedly pointing out that you are wrong and have made things up?

On the one hand that is odd behaviour but on the other, it's probably easier than admitting it.

Laughing at you is getting boring I'll admit that.

Sunderland is still there.

Need a tissue?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:18 pm

At the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

This thread who the message board "final remedy" supporters are........

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:24 pm

Sounds like a deal is very close.

Be interested to see what is in it.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sounds like a deal is very close.

Be interested to see what is in it.

Pretty sure it'll be irrelevant anyway Lancs, can't imagine parliament passing it.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:27 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I get it. You wont condemn this

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because your beloved EU didn't and described it as "proportionate"

Denying there would be clear parallels with this and a potential 2nd Scottish referendum where you wont give me a straight , yes or no, answer just makes it more embarrassing for you.

Fine.

I'm not denying the parallels ya basic spoon, I'm denying the dynamics of that parallel. I see, yet again, you haven't engaged with any of the points I've put to you and so I won't waste my breath again. And without a hint of irony you've posted the words on that plaque again. Perfect.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:28 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I get it. You wont condemn this

Watch "Catalonia referendum: Violence as police block voting- BBC News" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-kESpxWLk-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because your beloved EU didn't and described it as "proportionate"

Denying there would be clear parallels with this and a potential 2nd Scottish referendum where you wont give me a straight , yes or no, answer just makes it more embarrassing for you.

Fine.

An entertainingly weak response.

I particularly liked how Ringo didn't dare to answer any of the questions but if anyone doesn't answer Ringo's very specific questions that are bereft of context he'll spend the next week badgering them. He's a bit of a scaredy-cat when it comes to debating.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:29 pm

Caballo wrote:Pretty sure it'll be irrelevant anyway Lancs, can't imagine parliament passing it.

Think it will

If the DUP/ERG have somehow ignored what was verboten in 2018, then it will be just as easy for labour MPs to ignore the lack of worker rights protection in there.

I'd prefer it to pass by a biggish majority, but we are at the stage where a simple majority is enough.

It sounds like a much worse deal for the UK (even for NI) than Mays to be honest.

But we will see

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:35 pm

BAD NEWS FOR "FINAL REMEDYERS"

Voters back getting Brexit done: Major poll finds 54% believe the UK should honour the 2016 referendum - but younger people and Scots would still rather stay in the EU

ComRes poll of 26,000 people underlines the continuing divisions over Brexit

Some 54 per cent said the UK should abide by the result of the 2016 referendum.

Pressed for their 'preferred options' on Brexit, 42 per cent said they wanted to stay in the EU.

A fifth said they wanted to leave with No Deal, and 30 per cent would prefer to leave with an agreement. Just 8 per cent answered 'don't know'.

That explains why they're showing increasing signs of paranoia, delusion and frustration.!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:39 pm

willsclarets wrote:I'm not denying the parallels ya basic spoon, I'm denying the dynamics of that parallel. I see, yet again, you haven't engaged with any of the points I've put to you and so I won't waste my breath again. And without a hint of irony you've posted the words on that plaque again. Perfect.

With europhile zealots like your good self I gave up wasting my breath, many many moons ago.

You couldn't engage with a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Mr Kettle, may I introduce you to Mr Pot.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:44 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:With europhile zealots like your good self I gave up wasting my breath, many many moons ago.

If only!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sounds like a deal is very close.

Be interested to see what is in it.

Looks like there’s opposing views out there as to whether the DUP are onboard or not. Guess we’ll know in the next few hours.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:47 pm

The laughing at , however, continues. At least until novelty wears off, and I finally become bored with it.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:48 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:BAD NEWS FOR "FINAL REMEDYERS"

Voters back getting Brexit done: Major poll finds 54% believe the UK should honour the 2016 referendum - but younger people and Scots would still rather stay in the EU

ComRes poll of 26,000 people underlines the continuing divisions over Brexit

Some 54 per cent said the UK should abide by the result of the 2016 referendum.

Pressed for their 'preferred options' on Brexit, 42 per cent said they wanted to stay in the EU.

A fifth said they wanted to leave with No Deal, and 30 per cent would prefer to leave with an agreement. Just 8 per cent answered 'don't know'.

That explains why they're showing increasing signs of paranoia, delusion and frustration.!

You’re about two hours late with this news. AndyClaret is the go to Brexiteer for the latest poll news.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:49 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The laughing at , however, continues. At least until novelty wears off, and I finally become bored with it.

Or the medication kicks in.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:49 pm

martin_p wrote:You’re about two hours late with this news. AndyClaret is the go to Brexiteer for the latest poll news.

But only if it's a poll that supports a particular view.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:54 pm

Tall Paul wrote:But only if it's a poll that supports a particular view.

Of course! Although to be fair that’s what most of us do.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:12 pm

Johnson last year

https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/ ... 5733312517" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This year?

All fine

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Sounds like a deal is very close.

Be interested to see what is in it.

Not for the first time the EU trying to bounce us into a deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:20 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Not for the first time the EU trying to bounce us into a deal.

Its the timescale set by daft decision to regard all extensions as "surrendering" that is bouncing us into a deal Andy.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:21 pm

Oops, scrap that

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:23 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:At the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

This thread who the message board "final remedy" supporters are........

The quote was written in 1939 - before the term "final solution" was made infamous by Nazi Germany. You haven't even quoted the whole thing, so by selectively leaving some of it out you've altered the meaning.

Still, it's hardly surprising that the EU will have an anti war quote like that, as one of the core aims of European integration was to make war between members impossible.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:26 pm

logic and evidence will get you nowhere

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its the timescale set by daft decision to regard all extensions as "surrendering" that is bouncing us into a deal Andy.

It was Barnier who set a deadline of midnight last night, they tried and failed to bounce us into a N Ireland only backstop.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:44 pm

Rumours that the EU are not budging on their level playing field. Sounds very much like a SM fudge from Boris then.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:45 pm

AndyClaret wrote:It was Barnier who set a deadline of midnight last night, they tried and failed to bounce us into a N Ireland only backstop.

Again, its our own deadlines and our own redlines which is forcing us to this stage.

Is that a good or a bad thing?

I honestly don't know to be honest.

We will just have to see what is in the deal.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:45 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:BAD NEWS FOR "FINAL REMEDYERS"

Voters back getting Brexit done: Major poll finds 54% believe the UK should honour the 2016 referendum - but younger people and Scots would still rather stay in the EU

ComRes poll of 26,000 people underlines the continuing divisions over Brexit

Some 54 per cent said the UK should abide by the result of the 2016 referendum.

Pressed for their 'preferred options' on Brexit, 42 per cent said they wanted to stay in the EU.

A fifth said they wanted to leave with No Deal, and 30 per cent would prefer to leave with an agreement. Just 8 per cent answered 'don't know'.

That explains why they're showing increasing signs of paranoia, delusion and frustration.!

The guy from comres was on 5live, he said 18% of remainers would now leave, whereas only 10% of leavers have changed their minds.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:If only you'd said all that stuff about dips in 2016 eh?

But none of you did.

Remember, that was us telling you what would happen, and you dismissed it as "Project Fear"

Now?

You embrace it like it was all your own idea from the start.

Quite easy to search through many of my posts from 2016 before making wild statements (though most of the Brexit threads were deleted which doesn’t help).

I was quite clear that we would have a dip but not a calamity (which I did indeed dismiss, correctly, as Project Fear). I also said that I welcomed a lower pound, higher inflation and lower house prices as a crucial rebalancing to help younger people. It isn’t all about GDP.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Again, its our own deadlines and our own redlines which is forcing us to this stage.

Is that a good or a bad thing?

I honestly don't know to be honest.

We will just have to see what is in the deal.

The DUP should be negotiating in Brussels, it's them that's got to agree the deal after all.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:00 pm

aggi wrote:What specifically are they? I'd be interested in seeing a list.

I could quite easily spend an hour giving you a long, long list. However, I know you won’t be interested in discussing it (unless you are a unique Remain voter, because I haven’t found one yet). What you want to do is to claim those things were all achievable anyway without Brexit, or they won’t benefit poorer people, or, or, or.....

We know all this because the question has been asked on here endlessly for 3 years - and many of us have answered it more than once, including me.

It is very simple - life may or may not be rosy outside the EU, but life inside was intolerable to many. Too many rules, too much neoliberalism, too much distance from policy makers (ask Juncker if he has ever heard of Burnley), too many weird legal judgements from the ECJ, too much freedom of movement, too much technocratic political debate, too much protectionism. I didn’t mean to write a list, but I suppose I’ve written one accidentally

.

This does affect ordinary people - I’ve just bought a new American car today. It comes with a 10% import duty from the EU. Why should I have to pay a few grand extra to Brussels just so I don’t have to funnel the whole wedge to Germany for a BMW or similar? It’s a neoliberal scam, no doubt with the big German car makers sat in Brussels lobbying away.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:10 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:This does affect ordinary people - I’ve just bought a new American car today. It comes with a 10% import duty from the EU. Why should I have to pay a few grand extra to Brussels just so I don’t have to funnel the whole wedge to Germany for a BMW or similar? It’s a neoliberal scam, no doubt with the big German car makers sat in Brussels lobbying away.

Why buy it now and not wait until after we've left the EU then?

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:17 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Why buy it now and not wait until after we've left the EU then?

Good point, but there’s still no confirmed date we will leave, or if we will ever leave.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:18 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The quote was written in 1939 - before the term "final solution" was made infamous by Nazi Germany. You haven't even quoted the whole thing, so by selectively leaving some of it out you've altered the meaning.

Still, it's hardly surprising that the EU will have an anti war quote like that, as one of the core aims of European integration was to make war between members impossible.

One man's "anti war" is clearly another mans "anti sovereignty and self determination "

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:18 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I could quite easily spend an hour giving you a long, long list. However, I know you won’t be interested in discussing it (unless you are a unique Remain voter, because I haven’t found one yet). What you want to do is to claim those things were all achievable anyway without Brexit, or they won’t benefit poorer people, or, or, or.....

We know all this because the question has been asked on here endlessly for 3 years - and many of us have answered it more than once, including me.

It is very simple - life may or may not be rosy outside the EU, but life inside was intolerable to many. Too many rules, too much neoliberalism, too much distance from policy makers (ask Juncker if he has ever heard of Burnley), too many weird legal judgements from the ECJ, too much freedom of movement, too much technocratic political debate, too much protectionism. I didn’t mean to write a list, but I suppose I’ve written one accidentally .

This does affect ordinary people - I’ve just bought a new American car today. It comes with a 10% import duty from the EU. Why should I have to pay a few grand extra to Brussels just so I don’t have to funnel the whole wedge to Germany for a BMW or similar? It’s a neoliberal scam, no doubt with the big German car makers sat in Brussels lobbying away.

What I find missing from a list like that are arguments that validate the claims from leavers. So if there is "too much freedom of movement" for example, why is that the case, what are the specific problems that arise from the fact there is too much freedom of movement, how will brexit solve it and what are the implications of that solution? I'm not asking you to answer all that, but I am genuinely looking for those answers. I've probably given up a bit now, but whenever I've tried to get a good answer I hear vague generalities in return that sound like a regurgitation of a Nigel Farage tweet.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:22 pm

AndyClaret wrote:The guy from comres was on 5live, he said 18% of remainers would now leave, whereas only 10% of leavers have changed their minds.

And to think, that the likes of Lancaster Claret predicted with his ghoulish fetish, that, by now, the Leave vote would have shuffled off this mortal coil, Andy!

Its lead me to imagine that , like Dominic Greive, there's more than a little of the undertaker in Lancasterclarets appearance.