Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[KateR]

For those wondering how loath Ringo is to repeat himself ...

Capture.JPG

you really have to much time on your hands lol

[Lancasterclaret]

Are they not going to come unstuck with this and be forced down the Benn Act route?

Yeah, I mentioned that one further up the thread (but it was when Ringo was going full Ringo so no one might have noticed)

I assume (I've no idea btw) that they will just change that law if they have the numbers to pass the deal, or that the deal is somehow different, or something.

Its not really been mentioned which does tend to suggest its not as issue.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, I mentioned that one further up the thread (but it was when Ringo was going full Ringo so no one might have noticed)

I assume (I've no idea btw) that they will just change that law if they have the numbers to pass the deal, or that the deal is somehow different, or something.

Its not really been mentioned which does tend to suggest its not as issue.

Good Law project plan to lodge a petition to the courts to stop the deal going before Parliament (as it would be illegal) and thus it would trigger the Benn Act

Could easily be repealed with the numbers down the line but sounds like it could blow any hope out the water they will get something approved to negate the Benn Bill

[KateR]

still believe it will be a deal before parliament, leading to a GE and therefore Brexit is a way off yet, but it does "appear" at least that the EU & the government are trying to make a deal happen.

However if the deal doesn't happen this week and there is an extension plus GE I fear that the present government deal will change when going back to the EU and we will be back to square one, unfortunately.

I am not seeing a lot of light at the end of this long tunnel just yet.

[AndyClaret]

Yeah, I mentioned that one further up the thread (but it was when Ringo was going full Ringo so no one might have noticed)

I assume (I've no idea btw) that they will just change that law if they have the numbers to pass the deal, or that the deal is somehow different, or something.

Its not really been mentioned which does tend to suggest its not as issue.

Surely the deal will have an amendment saying "we repeal this law" ?

[Lancasterclaret]

still believe it will be a deal before parliament, leading to a GE and therefore Brexit is a way off yet, but it does "appear" at least that the EU & the government are trying to make a deal happen.

However if the deal doesn't happen this week and there is an extension plus GE I fear that the present government deal will change when going back to the EU and we will be back to square one, unfortunately.

I am not seeing a lot of light at the end of this long tunnel just yet.

Change of government to one without the red lines the current one has got would make a deal a lot easier, but it would be a much softer Brexit.

As in anything, there are pros and cons to every possible solution here.

[Lancasterclaret]

Surely the deal will have an amendment saying "we repeal this law" ?

If its that simple to do it, then yeah

[Murger]

Good Law project plan to lodge a petition to the courts to stop the deal going before Parliament (as it would be illegal) and thus it would trigger the Benn Act

Could easily be repealed with the numbers down the line but sounds like it could blow any hope out the water they will get something approved to negate the Benn Bill

It's the resident crowdfunder who's taken it to court. Not 1 person could have predicted he'd do that He really is a pathetic, attention weekend bellend.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's the resident crowdfunder who's taken it to court. Not 1 person could have predicted he'd do that He really is a pathetic, attention weekend bellend.

Yep but this is what comes of an incompetent and unscrupulous govt who are a complete shambles. I mean fancy being so against something you make it illegal only to do a complete u-turn 12 months later

[martin_p]

Yep but this is what comes of an incompetent and unscrupulous govt who are a complete shambles. I mean fancy being so against something you make it illegal only to do a complete u-turn 12 months later

It’s certainly restricting our options when it comes to getting a deal. Who knew that the real ‘surrender bill’ was an ERG idea!

[martin_p]

Edit - duplicate

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Hi GDJ, I've got one of those - a few years before your "since 1998." They came in plastic folders, "back in the day." Only comes out of the plastic when car hire want to see the details inside the folds.

I also used it earlier in the week as proof of address - along with passport photo - to sign up for internet access to GP stuff.

I remember the plastic wallet/folder thing, I'm pretty sure it's the sort of thing my dad would still have if he hadn't had to renew his licence due to points.

I see you still needed photographic proof though for the GP.
You'd be buggered without that, yet some still don't see why they need photo id of any type.

[aggi]

I remember the plastic wallet/folder thing, I'm pretty sure it's the sort of thing my dad would still have if he hadn't had to renew his licence due to points.

I see you still needed photographic proof though for the GP.
You'd be buggered without that, yet some still don't see why they need photo id of any type.

Generally there are two lists of ID that you need, one is for verifying identity, one is for verifying address.

A driver's licence can be used for either so I assume it was being used as proof of address in this case.

Generally the list of documents to verify identity contains the photo IDs. However, it can also contain things such as paper driving licence, correspondence from benefits department or HMRC and a few others. Depending on the risk level a face to face meeting may also be viewed as necessary if no photo ID is available. Photo ID can simplify matters but you can manage without it.

[dsr]

Just shows the complete u-turn the Tories (especially the ERG) have taken in just over a year. From making something against the law to thinking it’s a wonderful idea.

It also shows how you will oppose the Tories no matter what they do and what they say; like Corbyn, you only have to see the Tories hold a position to automatically take the opposite view.

For years you have been shouting "COMPROMISE". Now it seems they may have compromised, so you shout "HYPOCRITE". Why no praise for them seeing it your way?

[Lowbankclaret]

Lowbank, do you think leaving the EU will lead to any sort of economic recovery for towns like Burnley? I can't see how it would, but perhaps there's a bigger picture I've overlooked.

Well Burnley and it’s surrounding area has some very highly skilled Engineering companies who are winning lots of work from outside the EU now.
Could they get more work outside the EU control, I think so.
Given some favourable rates of tax etc.

[CrosspoolClarets]

It seems everywhere there are people who weren’t predicted to move but have - the EU, ERG, UK Govt, Dublin, and the DUP.

I say the DUP due to assuming they will reluctantly go for it tomorrow. Bad for them if they do not.

I wonder how many of the 18,000 posts on this thread are from people suggesting the EU or Dublin wouldn’t budge beyond what they offered May, or that the ERG are far right nutters who wouldn’t budge either? Those of us who suggested those things were wrong.

[martin_p]

It also shows how you will oppose the Tories no matter what they do and what they say; like Corbyn, you only have to see the Tories hold a position to automatically take the opposite view.

For years you have been shouting "COMPROMISE". Now it seems they may have compromised, so you shout "HYPOCRITE". Why no praise for them seeing it your way?

Where exactly in my post did I ‘hold a position’? I just pointed out the massive u-turn, that’s just a fact.

By the way, they haven’t ‘seen it my way’. My way would be a softer Brexit, this is still a hard Brexit.

[dsr]

Where exactly in my post did I ‘hold a position’? I just pointed out the massive u-turn, that’s just a fact.

By the way, they haven’t ‘seen it my way’. My way would be a softer Brexit, this is still a hard Brexit.

It was just a very odd way of putting it. When two parties to any negotiation come to a deal after a long and winding road, it does not mean (as you suggest) that both parties think that everything in the deal is wonderful. Quite often there will be aspects of the deal that one of the parties hates and is very reluctant to put up with.

I don't think the Tories think this NI customs thing is "wonderful". Clearly you do. It just seems an illogical conclusion.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Something else I have picked up on tonight when browsing today’s discussions is this belief that Johnson has gone back on his word by saying last year at the DUP conference that there will be no border down the Irish Sea. Newsnight have gone with that tonight.

The trouble with that rather negative logic is that it fails to understand that the expression is a metaphor. What he clearly meant was that NI would be in with the UK as regards wider trade deals and the likes. It sounds like they will be. Some compromise was necessary but he hasn’t gone back on his word, in fact probably more than any other major player in this, he has been true to it. The ERG were beaming from ear to ear tonight.

[martin_p]

It was just a very odd way of putting it. When two parties to any negotiation come to a deal after a long and winding road, it does not mean (as you suggest) that both parties think that everything in the deal is wonderful. Quite often there will be aspects of the deal that one of the parties hates and is very reluctant to put up with.

I don't think the Tories think this NI customs thing is "wonderful". Clearly you do. It just seems an illogical conclusion.

Again, what is in my post that indicates I clearly think the NI customs thing is a wonderful idea? Maybe try reading the words on the screen rather than what you want to be there to make a point. It was a post pointing out a 180 degree change in direction, nothing more.

[martin_p]

Something else I have picked up on tonight when browsing today’s discussions is this belief that Johnson has gone back on his word by saying last year at the DUP conference that there will be no border down the Irish Sea. Newsnight have gone with that tonight.

The trouble with that rather negative logic is that it fails to understand that the expression is a metaphor. What he clearly meant was that NI would be in with the UK as regards wider trade deals and the likes. It sounds like they will be. Some compromise was necessary but he hasn’t gone back on his word, in fact probably more than any other major player in this, he has been true to it. The ERG were beaming from ear to ear tonight.

Blimey, you’ve got the Johnson crush bad haven’t you!

[CrosspoolClarets]

Why buy it now and not wait until after we've left the EU then?

Why buy a US car today? My wife asked me the same question.

I think the currency will rise, and the 10% tariff will soon go. But I suspect that will only filter through to the price in the store by springtime, and we need another car now.

I’m also expecting demand to shortly outstrip supply and a big waiting list build up (I’ve bought a Tesla for delivery December, I did the maths, Brexiteer maths admittedly, and worked out it would pay for itself in 10 years with fuel savings).

But the wider point is that protectionism only serves to make high quality external products like Tesla cars more unaffordable, and while I can see the point of looking after our own industries, the EU’s tariffs only benefit our own manufacturers in a few areas, and hurt our consumers in all of them.

[dsr]

Again, what is in my post that indicates I clearly think the NI customs thing is a wonderful idea? Maybe try reading the words on the screen rather than what you want to be there to make a point. It was a post pointing out a 180 degree change in direction, nothing more.

I could ask the same question - what is it in my post that indicates that I think that you think it's a wonderful idea?

We're at cross purposes here. Back to first principles. Why do you think that the Tories think this scheme is a wonderful idea, when all the evidence suggests that they don't like the idea and are agreeing to it (if they are agreeing) reluctantly?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Blimey, you’ve got the Johnson crush bad haven’t you!

I’ve never really liked blondes but carry on like this and he’ll be starting to rub off on me, so to speak.

[martin_p]

Why buy a US car today? My wife asked me the same question.

I think the currency will rise, and the 10% tariff will soon go. But I suspect that will only filter through to the price in the store by springtime, and we need another car now.

I’m also expecting demand to shortly outstrip supply and a big waiting list build up (I’ve bought a Tesla for delivery December, I did the maths, Brexiteer maths admittedly, and worked out it would pay for itself in 10 years with fuel savings).

But the wider point is that protectionism only serves to make high quality external products like Tesla cars more unaffordable, and while I can see the point of looking after our own industries, the EU’s tariffs only benefit our own manufacturers in a few areas, and hurt our consumers in all of them.

Why aren’t you supporting the British car industry?

[Spijed]

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
We believe the Government's proposed Withdrawal Agreement is contrary to section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 http://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/22 ... 55/enacted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Paul Waine]

I remember the plastic wallet/folder thing, I'm pretty sure it's the sort of thing my dad would still have if he hadn't had to renew his licence due to points.

I see you still needed photographic proof though for the GP.
You'd be buggered without that, yet some still don't see why they need photo id of any type.

I'm pretty sure photo ID is also required for bank accounts and such like. In fact a good number of years back someone got themselves a new credit card in my name. The issuing bank was happy to agree to them picking up "my new card" so long as they brought "my" passport with them. So, when the person turned up with a "passport" in my name - but with this other person's photo - the bank handed over the new credit card. The bank's fraud dept contacted me a few hours later to ask "did I get my new credit card...." by that time the person with "my" passport and his photo had collected cash in foreign currency from Thomas Cook and M&S - somewhere around £5,000 worth....

I've got friends from a number of European nations. I think they all carry their ID cards that they are required, by law, to have with them at all times. They are always puzzled when we don't have ID cards in the UK. Memory says, Blair/Brown were planning to arrange when Labour party was last in power.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm pretty sure photo ID is also required for bank accounts and such like.

Nope there are things other than photo ID banks will accept plus there is photo id like a student card they would accept that you couldn't use as proof of ID to vote

[Paul Waine]

Why aren’t you supporting the British car industry?

I assume you are asking why CPC is not supporting the British car manufacturing industry?

How many of the "famous British brands" are now owned by British companies? Jaguar, no India and before that US? Mini, no BMW and just about the only part left of the old "British Leyland." The Japanese owned manufactures? Vauxhall, no that's now French and before that US.

Most of us buy Ford Fiestas, they are still owned by Ford (US) but, I believe most, if not all, are manufactured in Spain.

I wonder what CPC has bought. Would we like it to be a Hummer? That would be a "statement!" Or, maybe, a Mustang.

EDIT: Did CPC get himself a Tesla?

[Paul Waine]

Nope there are things other than photo ID banks will accept plus there is photo id like a student card they would accept that you couldn't use as proof of ID to vote

Hi DA, it's many years since I had a student card. But, why the "nope" - have you not heard of "money laundering regulations" - the banks have to positively and accurately ID all their customers. Passport is the safest version of photo ID. Agree, some other forms are also acceptable.

[martin_p]

I'm pretty sure photo ID is also required for bank accounts and such like. In fact a good number of years back someone got themselves a new credit card in my name. The issuing bank was happy to agree to them picking up "my new card" so long as they brought "my" passport with them. So, when the person turned up with a "passport" in my name - but with this other person's photo - the bank handed over the new credit card. The bank's fraud dept contacted me a few hours later to ask "did I get my new credit card...." by that time the person with "my" passport and his photo had collected cash in foreign currency from Thomas Cook and M&S - somewhere around £5,000 worth....

I've got friends from a number of European nations. I think they all carry their ID cards that they are required, by law, to have with them at all times. They are always puzzled when we don't have ID cards in the UK. Memory says, Blair/Brown were planning to arrange when Labour party was last in power.

I agree with this guy:

‘ If I am ever asked, on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong, I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it’

[Devils_Advocate]

Hi DA, it's many years since I had a student card. But, why the "nope" - have you not heard of "money laundering regulations" - the banks have to positively and accurately ID all their customers. Passport is the safest version of photo ID. Agree, some other forms are also acceptable.

I wrote nope because photo ID is not required as you stated. It can be used and is highly desirable but thats not what you said

[Paul Waine]

I agree with this guy:

‘ If I am ever asked, on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong, I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it’

and, if you ae asked to produce your ID card when you are pursuing something that is good, then what?

[Jakubclaret]

You need to slow down, I'm getting lost in the detail.

That's hardly surprising, I just wade through the waffle that seems to be forthcoming in the guise of some sort of semblance of a reply.

[Paul Waine]

I wrote nope because photo ID is not required as you stated. It can be used and is highly desirable but thats not what you said

I recommend you check it again, photo ID is required to open a bank account. It doesn't have to be your passport, but all the other stuff is more problematic.

[Devils_Advocate]

I recommend you check it again, photo ID is required to open a bank account. It doesn't have to be your passport, but all the other stuff is more problematic.

Checked again and haven't changed my mind

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/b ... nk-account

[Jakubclaret]

https://smartasset.com/checking-account ... nk-account" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope this clears up any confusion.

[martin_p]

I recommend you check it again, photo ID is required to open a bank account. It doesn't have to be your passport, but all the other stuff is more problematic.

Well I’ve just chosen a random bank and checked online. Barclays take a benefit letter or tax notification from the last 12 months as proof of id.

[aggi]

Hi DA, it's many years since I had a student card. But, why the "nope" - have you not heard of "money laundering regulations" - the banks have to positively and accurately ID all their customers. Passport is the safest version of photo ID. Agree, some other forms are also acceptable.

As I said said above (I spend far more time dealing with AML/KYC than I like, including a particularly frustrating episode where I was trying to get a copy of Woody Allen's passport. Americans really don't like our AML stuff):

Generally there are two lists of ID that you need, one is for verifying identity, one is for verifying address.

A driver's licence can be used for either so I assume it was being used as proof of address in this case.

Generally the list of documents to verify identity contains the photo IDs. However, it can also contain things such as paper driving licence, correspondence from benefits department or HMRC and a few others. Depending on the risk level a face to face meeting may also be viewed as necessary if no photo ID is available. Photo ID can simplify matters but you can manage without it.

[martin_p]

https://smartasset.com/checking-account ... nk-account
Hope this clears up any confusion.

It does. You definitely need photo id to open a bank account in the US, thanks for the link confirming that. Unfortunately it wasn’t the question.

[Devils_Advocate]

It does. You definitely need photo id to open a bank account in the US, thanks for the link confirming that. Unfortunately it wasn’t the question.

Classic Jakub

[Jakubclaret]

It does. You definitely need photo id to open a bank account in the US, thanks for the link confirming that. Unfortunately it wasn’t the question.

I realised it was US link nobody mentioned it was for UK or maybe they have, I've only just recently logged on to reply to willsclaret & quickly glanced at certain posters arguing/discussing the requirements needed to open a bank account, it was years ago when I registered with barclays & I do it online now & use pinsentry if changing devices. I'll leave you all to it, the banking methods I use are simple & straightforward without problems, always a first time for everything I guess.

[Jakubclaret]

Classic Jakub

Was it mentioned it was the UK? You tell me, like I said I logged on to reply, had a quick glance now logging off if that's OK with you.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I assume you are asking why CPC is not supporting the British car manufacturing industry?

How many of the "famous British brands" are now owned by British companies? Jaguar, no India and before that US? Mini, no BMW and just about the only part left of the old "British Leyland." The Japanese owned manufactures? Vauxhall, no that's now French and before that US.

Most of us buy Ford Fiestas, they are still owned by Ford (US) but, I believe most, if not all, are manufactured in Spain.

I wonder what CPC has bought. Would we like it to be a Hummer? That would be a "statement!" Or, maybe, a Mustang.

EDIT: Did CPC get himself a Tesla?

Also amusingly a Fiesta diesel is a French engine.

The advert for vauxhall irritates me, stating it's a British brand when it's been owned by foreign companies for decades.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why aren’t you supporting the British car industry?

Bristol, Morgan, Caterham and McLaren are the 4 main ones left that are British brands that have British owners.

I'm pretty sure none of them make vehicles wholly suitable for daily or family use but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Every other car manufacturer of note in the UK is owned by a foreign entity of some sort.

Naturally some market themselves as British brands, like Vauxhall and Mini, but that's just to make then appealing to the ignorant people.

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

Are they not going to come unstuck with this and be forced down the Benn Act route?

As I understand it, there will be two customs arrangement in one territory (Schrodinger's Cat style): NI will be de jure (legally) in line with UK customs regulations but will be de facto (practically) in line with the EU. That would get around (1) I suspect, but I don't know about (2); I would become tired of wearing my anorak long before finding out. At present, I think only a handful of people on the planet understand how this all works and what it all means. However, if the EU (and especially the ROI) are willing to accept it, it will probably be workable.

I think this deal is probably a go-er - DUP could scupper it, but I think Johnson will win them round. Will it pass parliament? Even the politicos don't know. It's like Man City vs Liverpool with neither team at home - who can call it with any certainty?

Interesting article from Stephen Bush in the New Statesman about the political calculations involved:

Meanwhile, many Conservative MPs believe that if they can get Brexit done, and done quickly, it is Labour that stands to benefit. There’s no doubt that an election, with Brexit out of the way, would suit the Labour leadership... But Corbyn is struggling to have an impact while the focus is on Brexit. The Corbynite hope, and the Conservative fear, is that if Brexit can be put aside before the election, a revival in Labour fortunes may be at hand.
...
And so this is Jeremy Corbyn’s conundrum: he and his advisers know that their best interests are served by resolving Brexit before a general election. But Labour just cannot decide how that resolution should be reached. The choice may soon be made for them."

Appreciate he is writing for a left-wing publication, but he's a good political analyst who has long been of the belief that the withdrawal agreement will pass and rarely tries to spin.

[Lancasterclaret]

It also shows how you will oppose the Tories no matter what they do and what they say; like Corbyn, you only have to see the Tories hold a position to automatically take the opposite view.

For years you have been shouting "COMPROMISE". Now it seems they may have compromised, so you shout "HYPOCRITE". Why no praise for them seeing it your way?

Well, they have compromised on something that was one of their red lines.

They have done this because a no deal is a terrible result for the UK and that if they don't do this now, there won't be a Brexit.

They would have a much better deal for the UK if they didn't have the self imposed red lines in the first place.

And the political decleration appears to be a right wing rules and regulation wet dream.

This deal is shite, a lot shitter than Mays deal.

It's troubling I have to be honest

[TheFamilyCat]

Why buy a US car today? My wife asked me the same question.

I think the currency will rise, and the 10% tariff will soon go. But I suspect that will only filter through to the price in the store by springtime, and we need another car now.

I’m also expecting demand to shortly outstrip supply and a big waiting list build up (I’ve bought a Tesla for delivery December, I did the maths, Brexiteer maths admittedly, and worked out it would pay for itself in 10 years with fuel savings).

But the wider point is that protectionism only serves to make high quality external products like Tesla cars more unaffordable, and while I can see the point of looking after our own industries, the EU’s tariffs only benefit our own manufacturers in a few areas, and hurt our consumers in all of them.

Didn't you fancy a Nissan Juke?

[TheFamilyCat]

As I understand it, there will be two customs arrangement in one territory (Schrodinger's Cat style): NI will be de jure (legally) in line with UK customs regulations but will be de facto (practically) in line with the EU. That would get around (1) I suspect, but I don't know about (2); I would become tired of wearing my anorak long before finding out. At present, I think only a handful of people on the planet understand how this all works and what it all means. However, if the EU (and especially the ROI) are willing to accept it, it will probably be workable.

I think this deal is probably a go-er - DUP could scupper it, but I think Johnson will win them round. Will it pass parliament? Even the politicos don't know. It's like Man City vs Liverpool with neither team at home - who can call it with any certainty?

Interesting article from Stephen Bush in the New Statesman about the political calculations involved:



Appreciate he is writing for a left-wing publication, but he's a good political analyst who has long been of the belief that the withdrawal agreement will pass and rarely tries to spin.

Although I hadn't considered which party may or may not benefit, I have always said that a GE before Brexit would be a bad idea as it would be decided on a single issue.

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

Although I hadn't considered which party may or may not benefit, I have always said that a GE before Brexit would be a bad idea as it would be decided on a single issue.

I agree. Whether Corbyn really wants a GE before Brexit is resolved I do not know. Some rumours saying the party wants it resolved beforehand and he's holding out, but, frankly, that could well be ********; politicians may seem useless, even pointless, but they are always clever and no-one should underestimate their capacity for controlling our perception of their activities. That's not a criticism: it's just the way it is. Why else would business' pour millions into marketing?