Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:19 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I'm no socialist.

And neither are you a democrat........

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Juncker rules out a further Brexit extension. (BBC)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:21 pm

Juncker saying we don't need an extension.

Hmmm

Be interesting to see how official that gets.

Certainly against normal EU policy.

EDIT - been pointed out that he's ruled out extensions before btw

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:24 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:So the DUP is voting no
Labour is voting no
Lib Den voting no.
SNP voting no.

It’s not going through Parliament.

I can't see a way that this gets passed either. But for Boris it's still a win if he can bring together his party under a deal they are united behind, putting them into a stronger position going into a GE. There might be a few from labour that independently decide a deal is in the best interests of the country, but not enough I don't think. The reality is, that it's a "harder brexit" than the May deal and alongside the fractures it creates in the union, Labour have plenty of political ammo to justify voting it down they will think.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:29 pm

Junker says no extension

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/11 ... 27554?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:32 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Juncker saying we don't need an extension.

Hmmm

Be interesting to see how official that gets.

Certainly against normal EU policy.

EDIT - been pointed out that he's ruled out extensions before btw

Essentially it can't become official. He has no business saying that.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:33 pm

willsclarets wrote:Essentially it can't become official. He has no business saying that.

V true

But a big help to Johnson nevertheless.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:EU won't interfere in our internal affairs over this Damo.

They might realise a statement urging us to accept the deal, but they won't do anything before saturday as it would count as "interfering"

Again, its back to Johnsons mistakes at the start of his premiership that are coming back to haunt him.

: IMG_20191017_143352.jpg (99.85 KiB) Viewed 1546 times

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:37 pm

Not his call to make Damo

Problem is that if you've always believed that the EU wasn't a democracy and run by unelected EU bureaucrats, then you might believe it!

And if it does, it is implicitly interfering in our domestic affairs, which is clearly only a big no no for Brexiteers when it suits them.

That would be a really, really bad look for the EU and a lot of Brexiteers arguments.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:38 pm

willsclarets wrote:Essentially it can't become official. He has no business saying that.

Juncker telling porkies? Who'd a thunk it?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:38 pm

EU source btw

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/statu ... 6603824128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:EU source btw

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/statu ... 6603824128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the way I read it - "in theory, there's no need for an extension because we've reached a deal. Please UK, pass it"

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:49 pm

Seems to be a lot of journalists suggesting that Juncker's "no extension" is pretty meaningless and that if push comes to shove the EU27 would agree to it. Always worth remembering that Juncker, et al don't have that much power in the EU. However much people want to pretend it's an undemocratic, juggernaut of an entity it is, in reality, run by the elected leaders from the member states.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:51 pm

Remainers don't like unelected bureaucrats either, who knew !

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:53 pm

aggi wrote:Seems to be a lot of journalists suggesting that Juncker's "no extension" is pretty meaningless and that if push comes to shove the EU27 would agree to it. Always worth remembering that Juncker, et al don't have that much power in the EU. However much people want to pretend it's an undemocratic, juggernaut of an entity it is, in reality, run by the elected leaders from the member states.

It would be hilarious if Remoaners voted against the deal and we ended up with no deal.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:56 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Or maybe people just don't trust the Tories when it comes to things like workers rights?

Then dont vote for the Tories, it still doesn't change the fact that our future is in our hands.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:58 pm

aggi wrote:Seems to be a lot of journalists suggesting that Juncker's "no extension" is pretty meaningless and that if push comes to shove the EU27 would agree to it. Always worth remembering that Juncker, et al don't have that much power in the EU. However much people want to pretend it's an undemocratic, juggernaut of an entity it is, in reality, run by the elected leaders from the member states.

Funny how hardline no-deal brexiteers suddenly became aroused by the thought of a singular EU entity having that much power eh.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:58 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Remainers don't like unelected bureaucrats either, who knew !

Guido Fawkes is one of the funniest accounts on twitter.

Its the "go to" website if you like your Brexit news as Brexity as possible, and without any critical filters.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:00 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Then dont vote for the Tories, it still doesn't change the fact that our future is in our hands.

Only the truly, truly, truly deluded ever thought it wasn't.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:01 pm

Just to clarify what Juncker said to the Brexiteers on here

"This deal means there is no need for any kind of prolongation.”

The key words are the first two.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just to clarify what Juncker said to the Brexiteers on here

"This deal means there is no need for any kind of prolongation.”

The key words are the first two.

Beth Rigby just clarified that after that she and Matt Frei asked him "are you ruling out an extension" twice, he said "yes".

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:14 pm

aggi wrote:Interesting wording in the political declaration about future commitments to a "level playing field". It's obviously pushed these commitments down the line but it's looking like we'd still need significant alignment (and similar rules on state aid, sorry iibyw) to get a trade agreement:

Yeah, I know.

It's this repeated use of the word 'should' in the level playing field passage, though. That the UK 'should' do this or 'should' do that. I'm not sure what this means from a legal perspective. Can we just say "Quite right, yes! We 'should' have done that! But we didn't!"

I really don't know.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:15 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Beth Rigby just clarified that after that she and Matt Frei asked him "are you ruling out an extension" twice, he said "yes".

It does not make any sense for him to assert that, he simply doesn't have that power. Not least because passing a motion on a deal is quite different from ratifying it. I can't see how this is legislated without a technical extension anyway.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:The hypocrisy of this. IF labour are going to win the next GE, what the hell does it matter what working rights we agree to, they can always implement their own. The same goes for the environment.
As for adhering to EU standards, and this isn't about wether they are good or bad, just the fact that they don't impose their standards on any other country in the world that they, the EU trades with. When will you understand that leaving means they can't impose their standards on us either.

Over the last 100 years we've created the NHS, the Welfare State, we did it all without any threat from the EU. Our standards of working rights, and environment may never be perfect, but it stacks up against anything most European countries have to offer. They have remainers brainwashed into this idea that we aren't capable of running ourselves, we aren't capable of creating a society with higher standards than any country in the world, including the EU. That we aren't capable of competing and succeeding on the world stage as an industrialised nation in our own right. Its all ********. We have it in our own hands to make of this country what we want, but its down to us, not the EU, not America, just us. It's insulting, and very sad, that you have so little faith in the people of this country, wether that's your family, your friends, your neighbours, your work colleagues. Trust me, if we pull together and stop acting like frightened little school girls, there is nothing to stop us, but ourselves.

Firstly, most people don’t want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded. Secondly, the EU is powerful enough to call the tune in trade negotiations with other countries, so when it comes to one with us it’s going to be EU standards, or no to trade.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:18 pm

Matt Frei getting shouted down by his hero , Drunker!

He may as well have said " zip it, bitch "

Quality!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Guido Fawkes is one of the funniest accounts on twitter.

Its the "go to" website if you like your Brexit news as Brexity as possible, and without any critical filters.

I dont doubt there isn't a remoaner equivalent and I wouldn't be surprised if you ran it Lancasterclaret.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:20 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Firstly, most people don’t want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded. Secondly, the EU is powerful enough to call the tune in trade negotiations with other countries, so when it comes to one with us it’s going to be EU standards, or no to trade.

Well, not quite, "It's going to be EU standards, or WTO to trade" would be more like it. And yes, I can very much see that will be the EU demand. I can also see us rejecting it.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:21 pm

Jo Maugham's legal challenge to the withdrawal agreement on section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 will be heard tomorrow morning at 10am.

"It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain."

A briefing paper for that Act set out a statement from Laurence Robertson MP that the purpose of the clause was to:
"[P]rovide a guarantee that shows we value the Union and recognise the importance of strengthening it, but also acknowledge the importance and the value of our most important trading arrangement, the UK internal market. Above all, it would contribute to upholding the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom and safeguard the Union for the future."

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:33 pm

Hilarious tweet from Nigel Farage:

So an unelected, retiring bureaucrat says: No extension, take this new treaty or just leave.
He is overriding the Benn Act. The EU shows itself to be a thuggocracy - power without accountability.
Appalling people.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Guido Fawkes is one of the funniest accounts on twitter.

Its the "go to" website if you like your Brexit news as Brexity as possible, and without any critical filters.

Don't forget about making up stories about domestic abuse to get a few more clicks.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:41 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yeah, I know.

It's this repeated use of the word 'should' in the level playing field passage, though. That the UK 'should' do this or 'should' do that. I'm not sure what this means from a legal perspective. Can we just say "Quite right, yes! We 'should' have done that! But we didn't!"

I really don't know.

Well this is the political declaration that is a broad brush outline of the deal we want in the future. We could refuse those things but then we'd be unlikely to get a trade deal. Realistically any trade deal with the EU is going to contain restrictions on state aid (and realistically it's unlikely the UK is going to care that much about it given how minimal our state aid spending is compared to other EU countries).

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:42 pm

AndyClaret wrote:It would be hilarious if Remoaners voted against the deal and we ended up with no deal.

Indeed, it would be like the past few years where the ERG have done their best to stop us leaving the EU.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:43 pm

Farage losing it big time

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:43 pm

aggi wrote:Indeed, it would be like the past few years where the ERG have done their best to stop us leaving the EU.

But we've ended up in a better place now though.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:46 pm

aggi wrote:Interesting wording in the political declaration about future commitments to a "level playing field". It's obviously pushed these commitments down the line but it's looking like we'd still need significant alignment (and similar rules on state aid, sorry iibyw) to get a trade agreement:

Ahh. Just be reading this:

https://www.ft.com/content/f917b2ac-f0c ... 5f11f42901" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the 'level playing field' bit is only in the non-binding political declaration anyway. I thought the language seemed a bit watery for a legally binding document. In fact, if I squint hard enough, Boris's deal looks almost like a 'managed no-deal' for the UK mainland to me (the exception being the NI provisions).

From what I've seen so far, I'd go with this deal, I think. For a while there I was firmly in the 'no-deal' camp.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:47 pm

People's vote lot are frit, they've pulled a second referendum vote on Saturday.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:49 pm

AndyClaret wrote:People's vote lot are frit, they've pulled a second referendum vote on Saturday.

They've done what?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:49 pm

ERG on board

https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status ... 2777488384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:49 pm

AndyClaret wrote:But we've ended up in a better place now though.

Well it's a bit early for either leave or remain to have that view I'd say.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:50 pm

Tall Paul wrote:They've done what?

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/11 ... 8913044480" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:51 pm

aggi wrote:Well it's a bit early for either leave or remain to have that view I'd say.

I meant a more brexity deal than May's.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:52 pm

AndyClaret wrote:I meant a more brexity deal than May's.

So we'll be worse off but we will feel freer?

That going to be the Conservative election slogan?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:52 pm

aggi wrote:Well this is the political declaration that is a broad brush outline of the deal we want in the future. We could refuse those things but then we'd be unlikely to get a trade deal. Realistically any trade deal with the EU is going to contain restrictions on state aid (and realistically it's unlikely the UK is going to care that much about it given how minimal our state aid spending is compared to other EU countries).

It will, but provided there's some sort of exit clause to any trade deal, it still leaves the opportunity - should political opinion shift - to head down a more socialist road if that's what we wanted. The complete absence of that option as a full member is the very reason I went for leave.

Not that I think that road is imminent. I think Corbyn and McDonnell have ended any chance of that for at least a generation. But maybe after I'm dead or something.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:52 pm

If it be your will wrote:Ahh. Just be reading this:

https://www.ft.com/content/f917b2ac-f0c ... 5f11f42901" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the 'level playing field' bit is only in the non-binding political declaration anyway. I thought the language seemed a bit watery for a legally binding document. In fact, if I squint hard enough, Boris's deal looks almost like a 'managed no-deal' for the UK mainland to me (the exception being the NI provisions).

From what I've seen so far, I'd go with this deal, I think. For a while there I was firmly in the 'no-deal' camp.

Yep, the PD is just a vision for the future. If this Brexit deal is agreed, we have a general election and Labour get in for instance it could significantly change.

Although the furore around the Withdrawal Agreement has somewhat hidden that it's only an interim step and it's what gets agreed afterwards will be really important.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:54 pm

AndyClaret wrote:I meant a more brexity deal than May's.

Who knows if that will get agreed though, particularly if the DUP don't vote for it. There's still a chance of it being voted down and ending up with a second referendum down the line.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:54 pm

If it be your will wrote:It will, but provided there's some sort of exit clause to any trade deal, it still leaves the opportunity - should political opinion shift - to head down a more socialist road if that's what we wanted. The complete absence of that option as a full member is the very reason I went for leave.

Not that I think that road is imminent. I think Corbyn and McDonnell have ended any chance of that for at least a generation. But maybe after I'm dead or something.

Christ, and I thought I was pessimistic.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:56 pm

AndyClaret wrote:https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/11 ... 8913044480

Thanks, that makes more a lot more sense than your post did.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So we'll be worse off but we will feel freer?

That going to be the Conservative election slogan?

In your opinion.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:58 pm

AndyClaret wrote:In your opinion.

No, and I'm getting slightly weary saying this, in the opinion of experts.

Certainly the first part of my statement is that, the 2nd part is the sort of stuff that I expect to see on here after Oct 31st.

Will you do me the honour of posting the first "God, it feels great to be finally free again" on Nov 1st?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:58 pm

aggi wrote:Yep, the PD is just a vision for the future. If this Brexit deal is agreed, we have a general election and Labour get in for instance it could significantly change.

Although the furore around the Withdrawal Agreement has somewhat hidden that it's only an interim step and it's what gets agreed afterwards will be really important.

so why don't labour vote for the deal, and then put their version of the PD in their manifesto and call for a general election ?