Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[If it be your will]

Yep, the PD is just a vision for the future. If this Brexit deal is agreed, we have a general election and Labour get in for instance it could significantly change.

Although the furore around the Withdrawal Agreement has somewhat hidden that it's only an interim step and it's what gets agreed afterwards will be really important.

But as you and I know, the old backstop certainly had the potential to become more than 'interim'. This one has no backstop.

I bet, if this deal passes, in 10 years time people will end up thinking 'Things aren't actually that much different, are they?" But at least they could be, if we so chose. And that's important for some of us.

[CombatClaret]

Don't forget about making up stories about domestic abuse to get a few more clicks.

And making up imaginary mic packs

[Lancasterclaret]

But as you and I know, the old backstop certainly had the potential to become more than 'interim'. This one has no backstop.

I bet, if this deal passes, in 10 years time people will end up thinking 'Things aren't actually that much different, are they?" But at least they could be, if we so chose. And that's important for some of us.

Only because the backstop is now integral to the whole thing.

[If it be your will]

so why don't labour vote for the deal, and then put their version of the PD in their manifesto and call for a general election ?

Why don't they indeed? This outcome is exactly what Corbyn and McDonnell have said they have always wanted - for 37 of the last 40 years. Just not for the last 3 years, that's all.

[AndyClaret]

A second ref would take over 9 months, the EU's new budget is set in June, can't see them wanting us still in by then.

[AndyClaret]

Only because the backstop is now integral to the whole thing.

with a get out clause though.

[Lancasterclaret]

A second ref would take over 9 months, the EU's new budget is set in June, can't see them wanting us still in by then.

Yeah I can't see it either.

But I can't see a GE sorting it either if the bill is rejected.

[Lancasterclaret]

with a get out clause though.

You mean like the backstop had?

[AndyClaret]

No, and I'm getting slightly weary saying this, in the opinion of experts.

Certainly the first part of my statement is that, the 2nd part is the sort of stuff that I expect to see on here after Oct 31st.

Will you do me the honour of posting the first "God, it feels great to be finally free again" on Nov 1st?

Predictions, 500k unemployed, recession, emergency budget.

[Lancasterclaret]

Predictions, 500k unemployed, recession, emergency budget.

And the counterbalance to that is?

Where are your economic forecasts that counter it?

[RingoMcCartney]

Hilary Benn telling Drunker to keep his beak out!

You could not make it up!

[If it be your will]

You mean like the backstop had?

The old backstop had no unilateral escape mechanism. We'd have had to prove the EU were acting in bad faith. (Good luck proving something like that.)

[RingoMcCartney]

Remoaners- "We arent against brexit. We just want to stop a damaging, cliff edge, no deal brexit we cannot have a cliff edge"



Boris - "we now have a deal"





Remoaners- "Woah woah woah! Er, well , er, hang on, er, "

[Lancasterclaret]

The old backstop had no unilateral escape mechanism. We'd have had to prove the EU were acting in bad faith. (Good luck proving something like that.)

Jesus

Thats a hot take that I'd expect from other posters to be perfectly honest.

Absolutely mental that you still think you can turn this into some sort of Lexit as well.

[Damo]

Not his call to make Damo

Problem is that if you've always believed that the EU wasn't a democracy and run by unelected EU bureaucrats, then you might believe it!

And if it does, it is implicitly interfering in our domestic affairs, which is clearly only a big no no for Brexiteers when it suits them.

That would be a really, really bad look for the EU and a lot of Brexiteers arguments.

IMG_20191017_155039.jpg (128.54 KiB) Viewed 1215 times

You are starting to sound like Nigel pal

[AndyClaret]

You mean like the backstop had?

We could unilaterally withdraw ? really ?

[AndyClaret]

well said Rory Stewart

[AndyClaret]

[AndrewJB]

Well, not quite, "It's going to be EU standards, or WTO to trade" would be more like it. And yes, I can very much see that will be the EU demand. I can also see us rejecting it.

EU standards if we want a trade deal with them. That is how they’ve done things so far, and there’s no reason to think it’ll change with us.

[RingoMcCartney]

Question Time tonight.

Mystic McCartney predicts-

"Look, the country voted to leave. You MPs said you wanted to stop leaving with no deal happening. Boris has got a deal now. So do the job your paid to do, and get on with brexit"

Followed by rapturous applause!

[aggi]

The old backstop had no unilateral escape mechanism. We'd have had to prove the EU were acting in bad faith. (Good luck proving something like that.)

Does the new "backstop"? I'm not quite sure where we are (or even if there is enough detail published) but will NI be able to get out of the customs union arrangements? Rumours were that the veto by Stormont was going to be sacrificed, I'm not sure if there's anything definitive on that.

[aggi]

so why don't labour vote for the deal, and then put their version of the PD in their manifesto and call for a general election ?

Good question. Possibly they don't feel confident enough in winning. Trying to fathom Labour's Brexit position is always a challenge.

[AndyClaret]

Does the new "backstop"? I'm not quite sure where we are (or even if there is enough detail published) but will NI be able to get out of the customs union arrangements? Rumours were that the veto by Stormont was going to be sacrificed, I'm not sure if there's anything definitive on that.

A simple majority vote has replaced the DUP veto.

[AndyClaret]

15 of the 21 ex Tories say that they will vote for the deal. It's going to be close.

[AndrewJB]

IMG_20191017_155039.jpg

You are starting to sound like Nigel pal

Farage talking crap. For a change.

[AndrewJB]

Question Time tonight.

Mystic McCartney predicts-

"Look, the country voted to leave. You MPs said you wanted to stop leaving with no deal happening. Boris has got a deal now. So do the job your paid to do, and get on with brexit"

Followed by rapturous applause!

Have to admit - I’m impressed with the hurry with which the tub of lard got on with things, once he was forced to by Parliament. Had there been no Benn Act, he’d still be on his second breakfast.

[If it be your will]

Does the new "backstop"? I'm not quite sure where we are (or even if there is enough detail published) but will NI be able to get out of the customs union arrangements? Rumours were that the veto by Stormont was going to be sacrificed, I'm not sure if there's anything definitive on that.

It looks like it will have some sort of ongoing consent mechanism for NI, but no, I'm not certain either.

[If it be your will]

Jesus

Thats a hot take that I'd expect from other posters to be perfectly honest.

Absolutely mental that you still think you can turn this into some sort of Lexit as well.

Maybe one day, maybe one day...(sigh)

[CombatClaret]

Boris was really the right person for the job, under his leadership the EU caved at the last minute and agreed to a proposal put forward by themselves a year ago...

[Lancasterclaret]

Maybe one day, maybe one day...(sigh)

I was being unnecessarily harsh.

It is possible that you can get a lexit with this.

If it gets passed on Saturday, the UK-EU alignment will be crucial to whether Brexit lasts or not.

[Devils_Advocate]

Fingers crossed the vote is tied and Bercow has the casting vote. Protocol dictates he should vote against the govt in this scenario and the subsequent meltdown on Twitter from the idiot leave fodder would be first class entertainment

[Colburn_Claret]

Only the truly, truly, truly deluded ever thought it wasn't.

So why are the deluded on this thread insisting that we are dependent on the EU to protect us with workers rights ......etc

As bad as they are, and they are bad, we have far more control over Westminster than we do Brussels
Roll on a GE.

[Lancasterclaret]

So why are the deluded on this thread insisting that we are dependent on the EU to protect us with workers rights ......etc

As bad as they are, and they are bad, we have far more control over Westminster than we do Brussels
Roll on a GE.

I don't think you've been reading all the bits of the thread that are relevant to be honest.

I think Brexit (whatever happens on Sat) lives or dies on how the economy works after it. We've as much better chance of staying out if we are closely aligned to the EU than not.

But that is because I'm looking at it from the economic point of view and don't agree that worldwide FTAs (if and when they get sorted) will replace what we currently have.

[Devils_Advocate]

we have far more control over Westminster than we do Brussels

As do the rich businessmen and media moguls like Murdoch. Its far easy to buy and corrupt govt policy at the expense of things like workers rights and taxation at national level than it is at EU level.

[Colburn_Claret]

Firstly, most people don’t want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded. Secondly, the EU is powerful enough to call the tune in trade negotiations with other countries, so when it comes to one with us it’s going to be EU standards, or no to trade.

Firstly, if you dont want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded, vote for a party that will protect them.
Secondly, there is NO SCENARIO, whatsoever, whereby the EU is going to day we wont trade with Britain. Germany is on the brink of a recession, if they hit it, the whole future of the European Empire could collapse. The last thing they are going to do is tell Britain we arent going to sell you anything anymore.

This is the sort of bullshit that only an idiot would believe. European banks would have a fit, euro businesses would be screwed, the people would tear down Brussels brick by brick.
What sort of trade deal we get is debatable, the fact that we might not get one is rubbish

[BennyD]

Question Time tonight.

Mystic McCartney predicts-

"Look, the country voted to leave. You MPs said you wanted to stop leaving with no deal happening. Boris has got a deal now. So do the job your paid to do, and get on with brexit"

Followed by rapturous applause!

You are forgetting that remainers are called that for a reason; they don’t want to leave at any price. The ‘no deal’ hoo har was a convenient excuse to rail against Brexit but now a deal is on the cards they will use the Benn act to try and prolong the agony. However, I would suggest that the EU holds sway over the Benn act as it’s their train set, and they don’t give a sh!t about lesser court rulings because they don’t have to. I Fervently hope that if they vote down the deal on Saturday, we leave without a deal as there won’t, according to the EU be another extension. That means we have to leave without a deal on 1st Nov and all the blame for ‘falling off the cliff edge’ can be laid squarely on the remainers. How bitterly ironic.

[Lancasterclaret]

Firstly, if you dont want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded, vote for a party that will protect them.
Secondly, there is NO SCENARIO, whatsoever, whereby the EU is going to day we wont trade with Britain. Germany is on the brink of a recession, if they hit it, the whole future of the European Empire could collapse. The last thing they are going to do is tell Britain we arent going to sell you anything anymore.

This is the sort of bullshit that only an idiot would believe. European banks would have a fit, euro businesses would be screwed, the people would tear down Brussels brick by brick.
What sort of trade deal we get is debatable, the fact that we might not get one is rubbish

Three years of telling us that the European Empire (the use of which shows just how little you understand or want to know) is on the verge of collapse.

Its not a complete shock to find out that the evidence says exactly the opposite is it?

[AndrewJB]

Firstly, if you dont want to see working rights and environmental protections eroded, vote for a party that will protect them.
Secondly, there is NO SCENARIO, whatsoever, whereby the EU is going to day we wont trade with Britain. Germany is on the brink of a recession, if they hit it, the whole future of the European Empire could collapse. The last thing they are going to do is tell Britain we arent going to sell you anything anymore.

This is the sort of bullshit that only an idiot would believe. European banks would have a fit, euro businesses would be screwed, the people would tear down Brussels brick by brick.
What sort of trade deal we get is debatable, the fact that we might not get one is rubbish

I honestly try not to be insulting. Once again, if we want a free trade deal with the EU, it’ll be us conforming to their standards. The degree to which we lower our standards will result in reduced trade with them.

Edit: and it’s not about what they sell to us, but what we sell to them. They won’t allow us to get a competitive advantage in an area of f free trade by lowering our standards to make the product cheaper.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think Colburn must have missed* this week when both the National Front in France and the Lega Nord in Italy both ruled out leaving the EU or ditching the euro.

Now I wonder what could possibly have made them do that?

*not reported on Brexity websites

[Paul Waine]

I think Colburn must have missed* this week when both the National Front in France and the Lega Nord in Italy both ruled out leaving the EU or ditching the euro.

Now I wonder what could possibly have made them do that?

*not reported on Brexity websites

Most likely reason, the UK is leaving EU - and so the EU can get stronger without an island country off the north west threatening to veto stuff that doesn't suit the UK.

[AndrewJB]

You are forgetting that remainers are called that for a reason; they don’t want to leave at any price. The ‘no deal’ hoo har was a convenient excuse to rail against Brexit but now a deal is on the cards they will use the Benn act to try and prolong the agony. However, I would suggest that the EU holds sway over the Benn act as it’s their train set, and they don’t give a sh!t about lesser court rulings because they don’t have to. I Fervently hope that if they vote down the deal on Saturday, we leave without a deal as there won’t, according to the EU be another extension. That means we have to leave without a deal on 1st Nov and all the blame for ‘falling off the cliff edge’ can be laid squarely on the remainers. How bitterly ironic.

There is no one size fits all Brexit. This EU plan that Johnson has signed up to is fairly extreme, too much so for a lot of Labour.voters, but Farage is saying it’s too tame. You can’t say that just because someone isn’t happy with it, they must therefore be a remainer.

[TheFamilyCat]

Most likely reason, the UK is leaving EU - and so the EU can get stronger without an island country off the north west threatening to veto stuff that doesn't suit the UK.

No, we could never veto anything. We always had to do whatever we said, didn't we?

[Colburn_Claret]

Three years of telling us that the European Empire (the use of which shows just how little you understand or want to know) is on the verge of collapse.

Its not a complete shock to find out that the evidence says exactly the opposite is it?

Do you make it up as you go along, or just conveniently forget everything that doesn't suit. I didn't call it the European Empire, Verhofstadt did at the Lib Dem conference, as you know as I've told you before, but then it doesn't suit does it.

The EU is held together by 20 little fish feeding off the scraps of 7 big fish. If one big fish leaves, and another big fish goes belly up, the 20 little fish are screwed. So many European banks are in the mire, Brussels is calling for more and more austerity, tighter fiscal policies. Germany going into recession could well be the first domino tipping over. The wonderful world of Euroland is just a picture in your mind, that apart from ideologically, bears no resemblance to the real world.

[Colburn_Claret]

I honestly try not to be insulting. Once again, if we want a free trade deal with the EU, it’ll be us conforming to their standards. The degree to which we lower our standards will result in reduced trade with them.

Edit: and it’s not about what they sell to us, but what we sell to them. They won’t allow us to get a competitive advantage in an area of f free trade by lowering our standards to make the product cheaper.

Tell me, what standards are we lowering??????
Our standards are already as high as most other countries and better than most in the EU, so which standards are we dropping to prevent us getting a trade deal, pray tell.

[Lancasterclaret]

Do you make it up as you go along, or just conveniently forget everything that doesn't suit. I didn't call it the European Empire, Verhofstadt did at the Lib Dem conference, as you know as I've told you before, but then it doesn't suit does it.

The EU is held together by 20 little fish feeding off the scraps of 7 big fish. If one big fish leaves, and another big fish goes belly up, the 20 little fish are screwed. So many European banks are in the mire, Brussels is calling for more and more austerity, tighter fiscal policies. Germany going into recession could well be the first domino tipping over. The wonderful world of Euroland is just a picture in your mind, that apart from ideologically, bears no resemblance to the real world.

Making stuff up and then putting it on a public message board is a very weird thing to do.

You, I and many others are going to find out what it's like in the real world soon enough mate.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Catching up after a long day......

Johnson and Cummings have played a blinder with their threat to go no deal and to then damage rival’s economies. Varadkar must have broken the Irish 1500m record in racing to the table.

It has cost Johnson 21 MPs he had to sack, but the crucial bit is which of these will vote for him on Saturday. If they do he will welcome them back in with a mild rebuke.

I expect his vote to succeed after an amendment, supported by the government, to build current workers rights into law (which, in a minority, is a big win for Labour, because the Tories can’t revoke it later).

[Jakubclaret]

Tell me, what standards are we lowering??????
Our standards are already as high as most other countries and better than most in the EU, so which standards are we dropping to prevent us getting a trade deal, pray tell.

The standards are already high enough & surpass most other countries, the standards EU directives enforce are by & large cumbersome & restrictive, the in-house regulated certifications BSI kitemarks ect, are sufficient enough to ensure trade isn't prevented. Unless it's a really niche high end product with a fussy consumer base it doesn't matter usually low volume sales so irrelevant on any EU input.

[AndrewJB]

Catching up after a long day......

Johnson and Cummings have played a blinder with their threat to go no deal and to then damage rival’s economies. Varadkar must have broken the Irish 1500m record in racing to the table.

It has cost Johnson 21 MPs he had to sack, but the crucial bit is which of these will vote for him on Saturday. If they do he will welcome them back in with a mild rebuke.

I expect his vote to succeed after an amendment, supported by the government, to build current workers rights into law (which, in a minority, is a big win for Labour, because the Tories can’t revoke it later).

I see it more that as soon as Johnson couldn’t deliver a no deal because our parliament wouldn’t let him, Johnson worked harder than he has for years to get something across the line - which meant bending over for Varadkar. Who made the concessions?

[Lancasterclaret]

Catching up after a long day......

Johnson and Cummings have played a blinder with their threat to go no deal and to then damage rival’s economies. Varadkar must have broken the Irish 1500m record in racing to the table.

It has cost Johnson 21 MPs he had to sack, but the crucial bit is which of these will vote for him on Saturday. If they do he will welcome them back in with a mild rebuke.

I expect his vote to succeed after an amendment, supported by the government, to build current workers rights into law (which, in a minority, is a big win for Labour, because the Tories can’t revoke it later).

This is a shite deal.

But it's better than a no deal.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Do you make it up as you go along, or just conveniently forget everything that doesn't suit. I didn't call it the European Empire, Verhofstadt did at the Lib Dem conference, as you know as I've told you before, but then it doesn't suit does it.

The EU is held together by 20 little fish feeding off the scraps of 7 big fish. If one big fish leaves, and another big fish goes belly up, the 20 little fish are screwed. So many European banks are in the mire, Brussels is calling for more and more austerity, tighter fiscal policies. Germany going into recession could well be the first domino tipping over. The wonderful world of Euroland is just a picture in your mind, that apart from ideologically, bears no resemblance to the real world.

It is very true that in a monetary but not fiscal Union there is little flexibility when the dominos start falling.

It is a form of modern slavery how the Euro leads some countries to thrive and others to toil. Please don’t hyper-liberals come on and take fake offence at my use of that term. The suicide rate in Greece was up 35% due to their financial issues.

The world is facing a crisis due to money printing and Chinese debt - we will need to be nimble and flexible to cope. I’m not sure France or Germany are either of those due to their Euro participation.