Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[AndyClaret]

Again, not a definite "no"

Is it enough to get wavering MP's to vote for it though.

[Lancasterclaret]

Is it enough to get wavering MP's to vote for it though.

If that is the reason they change their mind, they are going to have their minds completely blown when they hear what the ERG are saying.

[martin_p]

Is it enough to get wavering MP's to vote for it though.

I wouldn’t have thought so. Macron said the same thing back in April but still passed the extension then.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well no

I voted labour last time to make sure the Tories didn't win my marginal. I agreed with some of their manifesto, and I didn't agree with other parts of it, but my main reason for voting Labour was to stop the Tories winning it. I won't be doing that this time because neither party has enough that I feel I can vote for.

Look, if the Lib Dems win the next election, they'd have to win seats they have never won. They'd have to win seats all over the country and they'd probably have to have a majority.

They'd need 321-330 seats.

Thats 304-313 more than they have now.

If they managed that, they'd have a mandate to do whatever they wanted.

As Johnston would or Corbyn would.

However, you've said what I was hoping youd say.

"Theyd have a mandate to do whatever they wanted"


Last time for this question? Are you likely to vote libdems?

[AndyClaret]

I wouldn’t have thought so. Macron said the same thing back in April but still passed the extension then.

well 12 switchers have declared so far.

[martin_p]

However, you've said what I was hoping youd say.

"Theyd have a mandate to do whatever they wanted"


Last time for this question? Are you likely to vote libdems?

I’ve seen him answer that at least twice.

[martin_p]

well 12 switchers have declared so far.

Nothing to do with Macron.

[AndyClaret]

My theory, deal gets voted down, EU turns down extension request, deal gets voted through next week.

[Lancasterclaret]

However, you've said what I was hoping youd say.

"Theyd have a mandate to do whatever they wanted"


Last time for this question? Are you likely to vote libdems?

Yeah, I've said what I've been consistent with.

Look mate, I know you are going to go all Ringo on me but I believe in the supremacy of Parliament.

Because we live in a Parliamentary democracy.

I've even said it on here what I'm going to do on Nov 1st. AFTER REPEATEDLY SAYING I AGREE WITH THIS DEAL. (the ERG intervention is not helpful in that regard btw)

How much more honest do you want me to be?

[AndyClaret]

Nothing to do with Macron.

I didn't say it was.

[Lancasterclaret]

My theory, deal gets voted down, EU turns down extension request, deal gets voted through next week.

I have absolutely no doubt that next week would see that, but also other attempts as well (2nd ref, revoke etc)

[martin_p]

My theory, deal gets voted down, EU turns down extension request, deal gets voted through next week.

Pretty sure the extension would be forthcoming. All the EU leaders want this concluding with a deal which is why some of them are casting doubt on an extension. But if push came to shove there’s no way the EU would effectively choose no deal by knocking back an extension.

[RingoMcCartney]

Yeah, I've said what I've been consistent with.

Look mate, I know you are going to go all Ringo on me but I believe in the supremacy of Parliament.

Because we live in a Parliamentary democracy.

I've even said it on here what I'm going to do on Nov 1st. AFTER REPEATEDLY SAYING I AGREE WITH THIS DEAL. (the ERG intervention is not helpful in that regard btw)

How much more honest do you want me to be?

We got there.

So, let's suppose tomorrow, Boris's deal is rejected by parliament. And then a "government of national Unity " votes for a confirmatory vote. Or its voted through on an amendment of a confirmatory vote.

The subsequent referendum sees Remain win.


This is followed by a general election that, could see a furious electorate put a Conservative/ Brexit Party or (I know its unlikely or as likely as the libdems being swept to power) Brexit Party into government.

How would you feel if the brexit party, being king makers or being government. Having been elected on a manifesto pledge to take us out of the European Union without a referendum, did just that?

Be honest.

[TheFamilyCat]

We got there.

So, let's suppose tomorrow, Boris's deal is rejected by parliament. And then a "government of national Unity " votes for a confirmatory vote. Or its voted through on an amendment of a confirmatory vote.

The subsequent referendum sees Remain win.


This is followed by a general election that, could see a furious electorate put a Conservative/ Brexit Party or (I know its unlikely or as likely as the libdems being swept to power) Brexit Party into government.

How would you feel if the brexit party, being king makers or being government. Having been elected on a manifesto pledge to take us out of the European Union without a referendum, did just that?

Be honest.

I wish you'd go back to you "yes or no" questions ringo. You're making Garth Crooks look direct.

[RingoMcCartney]

I wish you'd go back to you "yes or no" questions ringo. You're making Garth Crooks look direct.

You're sounding like my ex-wife.



I cant do right from doing wrong!

[Lancasterclaret]

You're sounding like my ex-wife.



I cant do right from doing wrong!

Its a huge improvement.

You are asking me if I'm going to vote Lib Dem if they support a revoking of Article 50.

Every answer I've given you tells you the answer.

[RingoMcCartney]

Its a huge improvement.

You are asking me if I'm going to vote Lib Dem if they support a revoking of Article 50.

Every answer I've given you tells you the answer.

Have you missed my previous post?-

So, let's suppose tomorrow, Boris's deal is rejected by parliament. And then a "government of national Unity " votes for a confirmatory vote. Or its voted through on an amendment of a confirmatory vote.

The subsequent referendum sees Remain win.


This is followed by a general election that, could see a furious electorate put a Conservative/ Brexit Party or (I know its unlikely or as likely as the libdems being swept to power) Brexit Party into government.

How would you feel if the brexit party, being king makers or being government. Having been elected on a manifesto pledge to take us out of the European Union without a referendum, did just that?

Be honest.

How would you feel?

Leaving the EU without a referendum?

[BennyD]

There is no one size fits all Brexit. This EU plan that Johnson has signed up to is fairly extreme, too much so for a lot of Labour.voters, but Farage is saying it’s too tame. You can’t say that just because someone isn’t happy with it, they must therefore be a remainer.

Anybody who really wants to leave will vote for the bill, whether it’s perfect or not, because if they don’t they may prevent Brexit happening at all. Only a complete fool will hang on to the notion that there is a perfect leave agreement and if BJ is happy with it, it’s immeasurably better than staying.

[BennyD]

Pretty sure the extension would be forthcoming. All the EU leaders want this concluding with a deal which is why some of them are casting doubt on an extension. But if push came to shove there’s no way the EU would effectively choose no deal by knocking back an extension.

All BJ has to do is send an extension letter in accordance with the Benn act but state that any further progress is very unlikely should one be granted. It would then be up to the EU then; look stupid by granting one or risk a no deal by not doing so. That’s why, IMO, Juncker is so keen to get this deal through rather than risk losing the €39b due to them. However, the remainers will do EVERTHING possible to thwart the referendum result.

[BennyD]

TWO POINTS

1 The deal is , probably, not a clean enough brexit for Farage.





2 My mind reflects -


given this weeks ComRes poll , (majority want to leave)


the 2016 People's Vote, (majority voted leave)


the 2017 genera election result (where 84% of the People voted for referendum respecting parties)


and the 2019 EU parliamentary election (brexit party won)


What the majority think. (Bad news for Remainiacs)

Let’s face it, another referendum is what the remainers want as it gives the population another 7 or 8 months to get even sicker with the whole thing. What happens then if the leavers won again? Would the remainers accept it? Would they f*ck. They’d just carry on and demand a third referendum. They are like spoilt children who want things to go their way because they know more than everybody else.

[claret2018]

I accept the result of the referendum, but I don't accept that leaving the EU is a good idea. There's a difference.

[BennyD]

Agreed, but too many in Westminster don’t accept the referendum result and are doing everything they can to overturn it.

[RingoMcCartney]

Let’s face it, another referendum is what the remainers want as it gives the population another 7 or 8 months to get even sicker with the whole thing. What happens then if the leavers won again? Would the remainers accept it? Would they f*ck. They’d just carry on and demand a third referendum. They are like spoilt children who want things to go their way because they know more than everybody else.

It's a late entry Benny, but, congratulations pal.

You've just won this weeks Post of the Week!!

Fine effort!

[RingoMcCartney]

I accept the result of the referendum, but I don't accept that leaving the EU is a good idea. There's a difference.

I dont think having a labour MP representing Burnley is a good idea. But I accept the result of the general election.

That's democracy. Sometimes you lose.

[claret2018]

And sometimes we all lose.

[AndrewJB]

Anybody who really wants to leave will vote for the bill, whether it’s perfect or not, because if they don’t they may prevent Brexit happening at all. Only a complete fool will hang on to the notion that there is a perfect leave agreement and if BJ is happy with it, it’s immeasurably better than staying.

Here's Johnson on his own concession just last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsle ... 110754/amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; To say he’s “happy with it” is stretching the word happy. Johnson is a liar and a disgrace to the country - rushing this through just to keep to an artificial timetable of his own creation. Talk about “traitors” is usually unhelpful, but applies to a prime minister willing to discard two million citizens.

[aggi]

Have you missed my previous post?-

So, let's suppose tomorrow, Boris's deal is rejected by parliament. And then a "government of national Unity " votes for a confirmatory vote. Or its voted through on an amendment of a confirmatory vote.

The subsequent referendum sees Remain win.


This is followed by a general election that, could see a furious electorate put a Conservative/ Brexit Party or (I know its unlikely or as likely as the libdems being swept to power) Brexit Party into government.

How would you feel if the brexit party, being king makers or being government. Having been elected on a manifesto pledge to take us out of the European Union without a referendum, did just that?

Be honest.

How would you feel?

Leaving the EU without a referendum?

Personally, assuming that the Brexit Party won the election rather than were a minor party in a coalition (in which case they'd have to sacrifice their more extreme promises, as would the lib dems on the opposite side of the spectrum) then I'd think fair enough. Doing it via a general election is, in many ways, more sensible than a referendum.

[Spijed]

Heather Stewart
@GuardianHeather
·
1h
Understand Labour will support the Letwin amendment - which makes it likely to pass.
Would force Johnson to request an extension tomorrow; and mean we won't get a clean, up-and-down vote on his deal.

[Somethingfishy]

Of course we can make them more stringent.

So the point is that we can manufacture sub standard products for the uk market. Good result that.

I see it that we can have more bendy bananas than the EU will allow..and surely that is a good thing? (if we grew them ourselves by some miracle of course )

[KateR]

Here's Johnson on his own concession just last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsle ... 110754/amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; To say he’s “happy with it” is stretching the word happy. Johnson is a liar and a disgrace to the country - rushing this through just to keep to an artificial timetable of his own creation. Talk about “traitors” is usually unhelpful, but applies to a prime minister willing to discard two million citizens.

Ohhh Andrew, I really didn't know you thought BJ was a liar and you could not trust him, I think it would be a good idea if you post that on every page on this thread from now on, just so everyone gets some clarity and your astounding new theory that you have managed to uncover while searching for every morsel of anything that might change peoples mind on Brexit and trusting the government/Tories/Brexit supporters in general. How many of those would you hazard a guess at, that you are trying to convince with this fact, bearing in mind that virtually everyone of them would agree with you?

[BennyD]

Here's Johnson on his own concession just last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsle ... 110754/amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; To say he’s “happy with it” is stretching the word happy. Johnson is a liar and a disgrace to the country - rushing this through just to keep to an artificial timetable of his own creation. Talk about “traitors” is usually unhelpful, but applies to a prime minister willing to discard two million citizens.

He is happy with it because, despite attempts to denigrate him otherwise, it means we leave with a deal rather than no deal. IMO, the NI question shouldn’t be allowed to derail everything because that would discard the 52% that voted to leave. Also, he isn’t a disgrace to the country because, unlike the disreputable scumbags trying to thwart Brexit, he is trying to get it done and he sees this as the best deal we can get. Btw, it isn’t ‘his own artificial timetable’ it’s the latest date set by the EU. It’s interesting to note that the closer a deal is closer to getting done the vitriol from the remainers, and yourself, is becoming more venomous. BJ, for all his faults, is making a good fist of sorting out the cr4p sandwich that he was given by May. Btw, Corbin changes his mind every week, if not every day, on Brexit and the Lib Dem’s are full of sh!t so being called a liar appertains to all politicians, not just BJ.

[willsclarets]

Why are you obsessed with the idea that any opinion is an attempt to change someone's position here on Brexit? Posting crap like that in response to perfectly legitimate opinions is much less legitimate than the posts you try to undermine.

[BennyD]

Heather Stewart
@GuardianHeather
·
1h
Understand Labour will support the Letwin amendment - which makes it likely to pass.
Would force Johnson to request an extension tomorrow; and mean we won't get a clean, up-and-down vote on his deal.

Other than trying to screw up the deal agreed by both parties, what’s the point of this? Ah yes, it’s the remaniacs trying to overturn the people’s vote. They should be f*cking ashamed of themselves but, of course, they have no shame.

[aggi]

Looks like we're not bothering with impact assessments. Just because it's the most important decision the country has made in the past 40 years is no reason to do it properly.

https://twitter.com/Jess_Shankleman/sta ... 8008840192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[willsclarets]

Other than trying to screw up the deal agreed by both parties, what’s the point of this? Ah yes, it’s the remaniacs trying to overturn the people’s vote. They should be f*cking ashamed of themselves but, of course, they have no shame.

It's so we don't end up with a no deal by default, if a 500+ page long withdrawal agreement can't be legislated for by the 31st even if the motion is passed.

[KateR]

Why are you obsessed with the idea that any opinion is an attempt to change someone's position here on Brexit? Posting crap like that in response to perfectly legitimate opinions is much less legitimate than the posts you try to undermine.

Obsessed, OK if that is what you think, fine, absolutely not a problem.

I won't try to tell you how you behave or even think because I don't know, however I know I do come here to read, see peoples opinion and make a judgment on them as to what merit they have versus my thinking.

I don't think I have ever tried to undermine anyone's post but maybe people like you have that perception, which of course you are allowed, I know for a fact that reading the continuous post of the same thing time and time again is boring, but I suppose if what people continually post supports your point of view than anything remotely critical would be seen as undermining them.

You really shouldn't accuse people posting crap with what you post, but if it helps you get through the day being your smug self, then knock yourself out

[BennyD]

The majority of the people that voted wanted to leave and leaving is what matters. We tidy up the loose ends, make new agreements and see the impact after the divorce because we don’t know the impact, good or bad, until after we go. The majority are happy to take whatever comes on the chin, good or bad.

[Somethingfishy]

Why are they asking for impact assessments? Been quite adept at informing us for the last 3 years. Lets face it they know all the economic impacts don't they? .......Don't they?

[Spijed]

Other than trying to screw up the deal agreed by both parties, what’s the point of this? Ah yes, it’s the remaniacs trying to overturn the people’s vote. They should be f*cking ashamed of themselves but, of course, they have no shame.

Apparently, there is now talk of the government pulling tomorrows vote as a result!

[dsr]

Apparently, there is now talk of the government pulling tomorrows vote as a result!

Not surprised. There have been three different solutions in the past to a parliament that can't make a decision. 1 - the King sacks them and rules as an autocrat. 2 - the Lord Protector sacks those who he doesn't agree with and runs it with yes-men. 3 - we have a general election.

1 and 2 aren't going to happen, so let's get on with 3. Election needed. What use is a parliament that is decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all-powerful to be impotent? (Churchill)

[KateR]

The majority of the people that voted wanted to leave and leaving is what matters. We tidy up the loose ends, make new agreements and see the impact after the divorce because we don’t know the impact, good or bad, until after we go. The majority are happy to take whatever comes on the chin, good or bad.

It seems pretty pointless to me posting sensible things like this, to many are entrenched in there must be no deal, revoke A50 that these kinds of statements just get ignored if they do not know the minutia of everything that will affect every person or let's say group in the UK such as fishermen, farmers, financial sector, etc.

The referendum results are meaningless to many because they know better and as has already been posted we have had the "expert" predicting doom & gloom along with disaster, pestilence for quite a while, therefore they will continue to believe these "experts" and keep adding there twitter one lines to try and prove there point.

Many are the same people who spout about democracy, yet would support the LibDem group, whose leader is determined to revoke A50, who has stated if there was a second referendum and it was leave they would still not accept. It's difficult to try and debate and discuss with zealots and fanatics regarding anything and I would not try regarding Brexit, ohh and that comment goes for rabid Brexiteers to.

[AndyClaret]

15 switchers, Boris now has the numbers.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/br ... hnson-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KateR]

15 switchers, Boris now has the numbers.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/br ... hnson-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

having the numbers will be immaterial if the other tactics work, such as Scottish law case, and others where stumbling blocks are being thrown in the way of even voting for the deal, such is there fear that a HOC vote might actually pass and God forbid even result in BJ achieving something the vast majority believed impossible. I will wait with baited breath for tomorrows next exiting adventure of BJ against the Remoaners, just like I did so many years ago waiting for Saturday morning pictures at the Imperial

[Spijed]

Saturday’s vote to decide Brexit is set to be delayed, after an extraordinary procedural move by MPs who fear the UK could still crash out of the EU without a deal.

An amendment to Boris Johnson’s motion – intended to be the ‘meaningful vote’ he craves – would withhold approval until the full legislation to implements the deal is put into law.
But the practical impact of the amendment passing would be to render the vote essentially meaningless, making it likely it would be pulled together.
The respected Institute for Government said MPs would only have “considered the matter” and not approved the deal.
With Labour expected to back the amendment, tabled by exiled Tory Oliver Letwin, it seems almost certain to pass if selected by John Bercow on Saturday morning.
Hardline Tories back Brexit deal 'to pave way for no-deal next year'
The drama came as the result of the vote – if it is held – remained on a knife-edge, with No 10 buoyed by winning over some Labour rebels while whittling down opposition in its own ranks.
The amendment has been tabled to close a loophole in the Benn Act, designed to ensure Mr Johnson must seek to delay Brexit if a deal has not been approved by 11pm on Saturday.
As it stands, it would allow the prime minister to escape the commitment if the vote passed tomorrow, even though a full bill is also needed – leaving open the risk of a crash-out on 31 October, if it failed to pass.

[RingoMcCartney]

Personally, assuming that the Brexit Party won the election rather than were a minor party in a coalition (in which case they'd have to sacrifice their more extreme promises, as would the lib dems on the opposite side of the spectrum) Doing it via a general election is, in many ways, more sensible than a referendum.

Fair enough, you've actually told me what youd think aggi.

Where as Lancasterclaret.............

[martin_p]

15 switchers, Boris now has the numbers.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/br ... hnson-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where does it say he’s got the numbers?

[KateR]

So Channel Islands now being included in the UK's access to WTO, which seems to have at first blush been welcomed. I have to be honest and say I thought all along they would included and somewhat surprised by the announcement.

[AndyClaret]

Where does it say he’s got the numbers?

This doesn't, but the FT said he was 3 short, and more have switched since then.

[RingoMcCartney]

And sometimes we all lose.

If the 2016 People's Vote is not implemented, there will be 2 long term , and permanent losers.

1. Democracy


2, People's trust in it.

[AndyClaret]

Saturday’s vote to decide Brexit is set to be delayed, after an extraordinary procedural move by MPs who fear the UK could still crash out of the EU without a deal.

An amendment to Boris Johnson’s motion – intended to be the ‘meaningful vote’ he craves – would withhold approval until the full legislation to implements the deal is put into law.
But the practical impact of the amendment passing would be to render the vote essentially meaningless, making it likely it would be pulled together.
The respected Institute for Government said MPs would only have “considered the matter” and not approved the deal.
With Labour expected to back the amendment, tabled by exiled Tory Oliver Letwin, it seems almost certain to pass if selected by John Bercow on Saturday morning.
Hardline Tories back Brexit deal 'to pave way for no-deal next year'
The drama came as the result of the vote – if it is held – remained on a knife-edge, with No 10 buoyed by winning over some Labour rebels while whittling down opposition in its own ranks.
The amendment has been tabled to close a loophole in the Benn Act, designed to ensure Mr Johnson must seek to delay Brexit if a deal has not been approved by 11pm on Saturday.
As it stands, it would allow the prime minister to escape the commitment if the vote passed tomorrow, even though a full bill is also needed – leaving open the risk of a crash-out on 31 October, if it failed to pass.

TBF Letwin says his ammendment doesn't do what all the conspiracy theorists says it does.