Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:29 am

The growing notion amongst sections of society that people shouldn’t be allowed to disagree with a majority view and do everything legally possible to try and stop it is genuinely more worrying than Brexit for the future wellbeing of this country.
These 3 users liked this post: longsidepies CombatClaret AndrewJB

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:32 am

Damo wrote:I think this deal has proved that remainers are against leaving no matter what we agree to.
Fingers crossed it gets through parliament tomorrow, then the rational folk can get on with trading under a stable economy again.
The #getbrexitdone campaign wants you to think Brexit magically isn't a problem after today.

Even if we revoked article 50, Brexit wouldn't be done.

Why on earth do you think a successful vote for Johnston gets this done?

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:35 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:No it isn't, neither remainers or the Brexit party like the deal, you are saying one side ought to shup up and get on with it because they lost and the other what?

The usual hypocrisy from Brexiters, now Farage would prefer an extension :lol: :lol: :lol:
It’s bizarre isn’t it. At least remainers are unhappy because this isn’t remain. This deal goes beyond the type of Brexit Farage was talking about before the referendum but still he’s not happy. But he’s beyond criticism from Brexiteers of course.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:38 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:The #getbrexitdone campaign wants you to think Brexit magically isn't a problem after today.

Even if we revoked article 50, Brexit wouldn't be done.

Why on earth do you think a successful vote for Johnston gets this done?
There’ll be a period of calm but then we’ll be into Brexit uncertainty phase II as the year goes on and we don’t have a trade deal. Johnson will refuse to extend the transition period and we’ll be back to ‘will we be trading on WTO terms on 1/1/21 or will we have a deal’.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:47 am

martin_p wrote:There’ll be a period of calm but then we’ll be into Brexit uncertainty phase II as the year goes on and we don’t have a trade deal. Johnson will refuse to extend the transition period and we’ll be back to ‘will we be trading on WTO terms on 1/1/21 or will we have a deal’.
14 months for a comprehensive FTA with our biggest trading partner?

You won't believe this, but there isn't any evidence (like a completed FTA between similar sized economies) to think that's possible.

And when challenged, Crosspool "FTA" Claret told me that it would be easy because of the regulatory similarities.

Which of course completely ignore the regulatory divergence planned by the govt.

I'd say you couldn't make this **** up, but it's on here everyday

Elizabeth
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
Been Liked: 1250 times
Has Liked: 1367 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:51 am

The public want this deal approving by Parliament today and are fed up to the back teeth with all this scaremongering.
Many arguments have been put up by the 'martins' of this world over the last 3 years but they have never been good enough to shift Brexit opinion.
Boris got a deal many said he wouldn't get so please shut up
This user liked this post: Damo

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:52 am

Very hard to back this deal when the ERG are backing it.

They'd only back it if it meant they get to keep their unicorn brexit dream alive.

Very troubling indeed
These 3 users liked this post: longsidepies willsclarets nil_desperandum

Elizabeth
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
Been Liked: 1250 times
Has Liked: 1367 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:57 am

And so it continues......

willsclarets
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 133 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by willsclarets » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:05 am

When are people going to get their heads around the difference between passing a motion and legislating it in law.

Elizabeth
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
Been Liked: 1250 times
Has Liked: 1367 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:10 am

What people do know is that the Remainer MPs who want to stop Brexit can act very quickly to legislate in law when it suits them
This user liked this post: Quickenthetempo

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:12 am

aggi wrote:I'm a little confused too. You want people to agree that being worse off is good?
Hi aggi, if that's your concern then the IMF view is good news; all the "worse off" has already happened, it (can only) get better from here - if we all support BJ's deal. However, the "worse off" will continue if the uncertainty continues.
This user liked this post: CrosspoolClarets

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:14 am

Damian Collins

@DamianCollins
The Letwin amendment is another of those Brexit ideas which is too clever by half. If it passes it effectively renders today’s Saturday sitting of parliament meaningless, at a time when the country and the EU needs to know whether parliament accepts the new withdrawal deal or not


Today Programme

BBC Radio 4

The government's Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay refuses to rule out pulling today's vote on Boris Johnson's Brexit deal if the Letwin amendment is passed.

"We're focused on winning the vote and not having the Letwin amendment," he says.

"We'll address that if that vote passes."

According to BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith, presumably if the government pulls today's vote then "no-deal is very much back on the table... unless courts force the PM to delay".

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:16 am

Sadly:


Stephen Dempster
@dempster7
Breaking: senior loyalist source tonight says discussions between loyalists/unionists of all backgrounds taken place in past 24 hours - “civil disobedience on a large scale has been discussed, as well as a large rally” to resist Brexit deal. More developments expected next week

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:25 am

I know it’s called a free trade agreement because it means tariff free.

However the actual cost will be 1 billion a month, I am fairly sure most people would vote against this deal if they understood that.

We are being stitched up, good and proper.

Paul Waine
Posts: 9845
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 2344 times
Has Liked: 3164 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:34 am

martin_p wrote:The growing notion amongst sections of society that people shouldn’t be allowed to disagree with a majority view and do everything legally possible to try and stop it is genuinely more worrying than Brexit for the future wellbeing of this country.
Hi martin, if it's the notion that there are some who are "well placed" to make the correct decisions and other people who are "not well placed" to make correct decisions, then I agree that is genuinely worrying. So, tell me about all the "differentiators" that remain supporters have claimed should deny the majority decision in the referendum. Those that went to university v those that didn't? Those that live in smart neighbourhoods v those that live in "working class" neighbourhoods? Those that are regularly seen in "celebrity circles?" Those that have "plenty of money" v those that have less? "Young" v "old?"

All votes are equal is what democracy requires. Let's stand "shoulder to shoulder" to support our democracy in this way.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:35 am

Laura Kuenssberg

BBC political editor

A Number 10 source says: "A vote for Letwin is a vote for delay and the whips will send everyone home.

"A vote for Letwin means MPs voting to render the entire day, that they demanded, meaningless.

"It would perfectly sum up this broken Parliament.

"But the government will not negotiate delay - we will continue to argue that Britain and Europe should reject delay and force MPs to choose between this deal and no deal.

"And we will introduce the legislation on Monday so we can get Brexit done on 31 October."

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:39 am

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1185474721187545093" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government only interested in rushing this deal through.

Will break the law to get it done.

**** that, no way I'm backing anything like that.

Do the deal properly, obeying the law, or you are not fit to run our great country and you should resign.
These 2 users liked this post: willsclarets longsidepies

Elizabeth
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
Been Liked: 1250 times
Has Liked: 1367 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:50 am

Anyone got a hanky?

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:06 am

Elizabeth wrote:The public want this deal approving by Parliament today and are fed up to the back teeth with all this scaremongering.
Many arguments have been put up by the 'martins' of this world over the last 3 years but they have never been good enough to shift Brexit opinion.
Boris got a deal many said he wouldn't get so please shut up
Most thought he wouldn't get a better deal that May, they were right, he came back with a worse one.

As for scaremongering no leavers can give you a tangible benefit any longer, If this deal v remain had been put to the people in 2016 it would have crashed and burned.
You have Tory MPs saying 'people knew what they voted for, prior to the referendum they were warned there will be an economic hit'
Except it was Remain who warned this and were shouted down as project fear, now the same people who poo poo'd it are saying it was right all along and using it as evidence for a mandate despite saying it wouldn't be the case :roll: :roll:

Bordeauxclaret
Posts: 10273
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Been Liked: 3327 times
Has Liked: 1942 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:07 am

Spijed wrote:Laura Kuenssberg

BBC political editor

A Number 10 source says: "A vote for Letwin is a vote for delay and the whips will send everyone home.

"A vote for Letwin means MPs voting to render the entire day, that they demanded, meaningless.

"It would perfectly sum up this broken Parliament.

"But the government will not negotiate delay - we will continue to argue that Britain and Europe should reject delay and force MPs to choose between this deal and no deal.

"And we will introduce the legislation on Monday so we can get Brexit done on 31 October."
A number 10 source.

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1185474721187545093

Government only interested in rushing this deal through.

Will break the law to get it done.

**** that, no way I'm backing anything like that.

Do the deal properly, obeying the law, or you are not fit to run our great country and you should resign.
Lancs,

Come on as you know, he cannot get any law past in Parliament.

So I don’t think he will be allowed to break the law.

And I don’t support any law breaking at all.

On that we agree, !!

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5232
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:26 am

On one level it is partially entertaining to see the last dying breath of the Revoke campaign, both on here and on telly.

The Letwin thing is a farce, the guy is a total clown, if Boris won a Commons majority that would mean that in the absence of wrecking amendments the deal would pass and there would not be no deal. If Benn allowed, say, a 3-4 week extension that would be sensible, but 3 months farcical. So Boris cannot allow that. That’s why he will send his MPs home after the Letwin vote.

So I think I will do the same thing and sack this all off today too. I’ve watched England win at rugby, I shall now take my daughter to the cinema, then take in a beer festival with pals. Hopefully when I check later this evening the HoC will have done the right thing.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:29 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Lancs,

Come on as you know, he cannot get any law past in Parliament.

So I don’t think he will be allowed to break the law.

And I don’t support any law breaking at all.

On that we agree, !!
And that is fine, because you are not intending to vote for him (still voting for the Brexit Party I assume?)

But loads will vote for him, despite him being willing to break the law.

You can't have a PM who is willing to break the law to get what he wants and pretend you are looking at this without a set of huge brexit tinted glasses.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:31 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:On one level it is partially entertaining to see the last dying breath of the Revoke campaign, both on here and on telly.

The Letwin thing is a farce, the guy is a total clown, if Boris won a Commons majority that would mean that in the absence of wrecking amendments the deal would pass and there would not be no deal. If Benn allowed, say, a 3-4 week extension that would be sensible, but 3 months farcical. So Boris cannot allow that. That’s why he will send his MPs home after the Letwin vote.

So I think I will do the same thing and sack this all off today too. I’ve watched England win at rugby, I shall now take my daughter to the cinema, then take in a beer festival with pals. Hopefully when I check later this evening the HoC will have done the right thing.
Its a farce because it stops Johnson pushing through a deal agreed on thurs, and debated by about two hours by the sovereign parliament, which would change the UK for a couple of generations?

It gives proper scrutiny of the deal and doesn't block it

You call that a farce?

The mask is slipping Crosspool, the mask is definitely slipping.
This user liked this post: CombatClaret

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:43 am

The MP's will vote against Brexit not against the deal. Anything to delay and hijack Brexit is the agenda.
It will backfire long term if they don't make progress today opening doors to a general election seeing a Tory and Brexit party government.

It would be foolish and naive of them to not have this happen on the 31st.

CombatClaret
Posts: 4381
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:09 pm
Been Liked: 1825 times
Has Liked: 929 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:47 am

Bfcboyo wrote:The MP's will vote against Brexit not against the deal. Anything to delay and hijack Brexit is the agenda.
It will backfire long term if they don't make progress today opening doors to a general election seeing a Tory and Brexit party government.

It would be foolish and naive of them to not have this happen on the 31st.
Or heaven forbid asking the public if this deal is what they want. Because in 2016 every deal that that was voted for.

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:53 am

CombatClaret wrote:Or heaven forbid asking the public if this deal is what they want. Because in 2016 every deal that that was voted for.
The deal is good. The deal should go through.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:55 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi martin, if it's the notion that there are some who are "well placed" to make the correct decisions and other people who are "not well placed" to make correct decisions, then I agree that is genuinely worrying. So, tell me about all the "differentiators" that remain supporters have claimed should deny the majority decision in the referendum. Those that went to university v those that didn't? Those that live in smart neighbourhoods v those that live in "working class" neighbourhoods? Those that are regularly seen in "celebrity circles?" Those that have "plenty of money" v those that have less? "Young" v "old?"

All votes are equal is what democracy requires. Let's stand "shoulder to shoulder" to support our democracy in this way.
How you’ve taken that from what I wrote is frankly beyond me.

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:03 am

CombatClaret wrote:Or heaven forbid asking the public if this deal is what they want. Because in 2016 every deal that that was voted for.
I must be tired as that that doesn't sit right as I read it.

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:17 am

martin_p wrote:The growing notion amongst sections of society that people shouldn’t be allowed to disagree with a majority view and do everything legally possible to try and stop it is genuinely more worrying than Brexit for the future wellbeing of this country.
As pointed out why would the EU give us an extension how would it suit them in anyway. Why would they want us wasting more of their time after they have moved to get a deal with us.

Boris knows we will not be given an extension. So it is a case of accept the offer or we leave on the 31st with no deal.

Brexit is about to happen one way or another so accept it. And remainers in parliment need to wake up fast.

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:21 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:No worries. I've never been under any illusions that the EU is a neo-liberal project. But it's much, much better than the neoliberal extremism we're going to see without their protections and without their economic impact. You are in for a huge surprise if you think this country is going to become less neolib as a result of the economic catastrofuck that we're about to enjoy.
I agree the prospects don't look nearly as good as they once did. On the brexit issue Labour (or more precisely, by the looks of it, McDonnell) have been strategically hopeless since the EU elections. Corbyn looks broken to me, too - having gone against his own better judgment once too many times. So I don't think it will be this Labour administration in charge of events. But I do still think the neoliberal model is in its death throes, and being outside the EU's rules will mean the state will at least be able to step in and do something, should it be deemed necessary.

I honestly don't think the electorate would tolerate the kind of dystopian free-market wasteland some think we're heading towards, however much they manipulate them. But we'll see, I suppose.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:22 am

Elizabeth wrote:The public want this deal approving by Parliament today and are fed up to the back teeth with all this scaremongering.
Many arguments have been put up by the 'martins' of this world over the last 3 years but they have never been good enough to shift Brexit opinion.
Boris got a deal many said he wouldn't get so please shut up
You don't speak for the public.

I'm fed up to the back teeth of being told that we have to back the crap deal the EU forced on Johnson, because he was so desperate to fulfill a promise for the first time in his life. Good for him for actually pulling his finger out and doing a day's work for a change, but it's a worse deal than what May achieved, so I hope it fails.

Once we've ruled out a no deal, I'm really looking forward to the general election, and the chance to get rid of Johnson for good.

Bfcboyo
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:30 pm
Been Liked: 441 times
Has Liked: 355 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bfcboyo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:25 am

AndrewJB wrote:You don't speak for the public.

I'm fed up to the back teeth of being told that we have to back the crap deal the EU forced on Johnson, because he was so desperate to fulfill a promise for the first time in his life. Good for him for actually pulling his finger out and doing a day's work for a change, but it's a worse deal than what May achieved, so I hope it fails.

Once we've ruled out a no deal, I'm really looking forward to the general election, and the chance to get rid of Johnson for good.
Big Nigel Farage fan are you?

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3952 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:28 am

AndyClaret wrote:They wouldn't have the numbers for a no deal, we already know this.
How on earth can you know that?
Much can change in 14 months.
All sorts of issues could arise during the transition period that could change the numbers, most obviously trade talks could fail, (which would potentially leave us with a no deal option only). Johnson and Cummings could easily manipulate that very situation.
You also seem to contradict your previous position in that you think Johnson will call an election soon and get a majority. In that case there would clearly be momentum for a "no deal" during the transition.
So can you now provide evidence that contradicts this? "we already know this", you say. How?

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:31 am

If it be your will wrote:I agree the prospects don't look nearly as good as they once did. On the brexit issue Labour (or more precisely, by the looks of it, McDonnell) have been strategically hopeless since the EU elections. Corbyn looks broken to me, too - having gone against his own better judgment once too many times. So I don't think it will be this Labour administration in charge of events. But I do still think the neoliberal model is in its death throes, and being outside the EU's rules will mean the state will at least be able to step in and do something, should it be deemed necessary.

I honestly don't think the electorate would tolerate the kind of dystopian free-market wasteland some think we're heading towards, however much they manipulate them. But we'll see, I suppose.
They don't look nearly as good as they once did? They never looked good. You people were warned before the vote that if we voted to leave then the neoliberal nutjobs would gut regulations, including workers' rights, and you still went for it anyway. And all that's happened in the last 3 years is seen everything about how ******* moronic Brexit is, and how disastrous it will be to the economy that will be used by these neolib to justify the "bonfire of regulations" you were warned about be further confirmed.

Brexit was always going to be a ******* disaster. And that disaster was always going to be used by the neolibs to slash rights and to slash regulations. You don't think the electorate would tolerate it? The same electorate that even now has the Conservatives leading every westminster voting intention poll despite how much they're ******* the country up? You have a delusionally optimistic view of this electorate's ability to parse information and vote to protect their own interests.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:38 am

Is leaving the EU a disaster for the UK the same disaster it would be for Scotland leaving the UK and the EU at the same time?

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:47 am

IT, I keep hearing workers rights being negatively affected once we leave the EU. Genuinely here I'm wondering what impact this will have as so far I can only find where UK workers rights supersede that of EU ones. That said, I've only seen examples on what would appear to be pro-brexit websites.

What workers rights are we set to lose? To be clear - I'm not having a go, just looking for information.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:49 am

martin_p wrote:How you’ve taken that from what I wrote is frankly beyond me.
Ask yourself how is it possible to take it any other way? Recently you've been complaining a lot how respecting & agreeing/disagreeing with democracy can be separate entities, surely to respect something a modicum of a agreement needs to be forthcoming, it's puzzling how you can respect something but at the same time disagree with something, by all means you carry on with this bizarre attitude & convince yourself it's normal & possible to 100% respect & 100% disagree.

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:59 am

Reports that letwin amendment may fail, all the ERG will vote for the deal.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:59 am

Darthlaw wrote:IT, I keep hearing workers rights being negatively affected once we leave the EU. Genuinely here I'm wondering what impact this will have as so far I can only find where UK workers rights supersede that of EU ones. That said, I've only seen examples on what would appear to be pro-brexit websites.

What workers rights are we set to lose? To be clear - I'm not having a go, just looking for information.
Probably non immediately but once we are out then the fear is this govt and its big business backers will use any economic hardship as an excuse to start slashing things like workers rights and food regs etc.

You just have to look at what the EU are looking to do to tackle tax avoidance and the correlation with the people who fund and back the Leave campaign as well as the Brexit Party and the Tories. There is a reason these people are trying to sell the notion at leave now at all costs and its not for the benefit of the working class folk up in Burnley.

My challenge would be that if we leave on the 31st or soon after with this deal lets look what happens over the next two or three years. I am confident they will be examples of regs and workers rights falling below current UK and EU standards. The trouble is the narrative will change and when we highlight these examples you will tell us it was needed and good for us cos thats what the propaganda machine will feed you all

AndyClaret
Posts: 1349
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm
Been Liked: 217 times
Has Liked: 543 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:00 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:How on earth can you know that?
Much can change in 14 months.
All sorts of issues could arise during the transition period that could change the numbers, most obviously trade talks could fail, (which would potentially leave us with a no deal option only). Johnson and Cummings could easily manipulate that very situation.
You also seem to contradict your previous position in that you think Johnson will call an election soon and get a majority. In that case there would clearly be momentum for a "no deal" during the transition.
So can you now provide evidence that contradicts this? "we already know this", you say. How?
There's all ready been several votes on no deal, all heavily defeated.

Darthlaw
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:08 pm
Been Liked: 1177 times
Has Liked: 414 times
Location: Death Star, Dark Side Row S Seat 666

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:05 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Probably non immediately but once we are out then the fear is this govt and its big business backers will use any economic hardship as an excuse to start slashing things like workers rights
My point being UK workers rights could be slashed right now, to meet EU rights. The question I'm asking is what protections do EU workers rights offer?

I can see working time directive being abolished but seen as workers can waive their rights on this currently, isn't it just pointless legislation?

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:06 pm

Darthlaw wrote:IT, I keep hearing workers rights being negatively affected once we leave the EU. Genuinely here I'm wondering what impact this will have as so far I can only find where UK workers rights supersede that of EU ones. That said, I've only seen examples on what would appear to be pro-brexit websites.

What workers rights are we set to lose? To be clear - I'm not having a go, just looking for information.

No rights will be lost, contracts of employment won't be changed, it'll still take 24mths before you build up any employment rights & individual settlement agreements (private conversations) will be the norm outside of normal disciplinary protocol, I'd expect the unions to have more influence post brexit, the average working conditions health & safety may change slightly that's all.

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:10 pm

Darthlaw wrote:IT, I keep hearing workers rights being negatively affected once we leave the EU. Genuinely here I'm wondering what impact this will have as so far I can only find where UK workers rights supersede that of EU ones. That said, I've only seen examples on what would appear to be pro-brexit websites.

What workers rights are we set to lose? To be clear - I'm not having a go, just looking for information.
You're right, we do have better workers' rights than what the EU laws mandate. The problem is going to come when we destroy our economy by leaving the EU and we have to slash these rights in order to attract business and investment. One of the reasons we can afford to have strong workers' rights right now is not just because the EU mandates them, but because we are competitive even with these rights. Once we reduce our competitiveness, once we have much less money and no single market access then to attract foreign investment we're going to have to become competitive, and the easiest, most obvious way to do that is to make labour cheaper.

It's not really that tough to understand, and i do appreciate your post. If we want to minimise the job losses as a result of Brexit then we're going to have to make people cheaper for companies to employ, otherwise if they're going to have to spend the same amount of money per employee as before then they may as well do that inside the single market where they'll get more for their money.
And if we expect manufacturing to come back (a pipe dream since it's not been lost to the EU) then it's going to have to be workers rights that are slashed, and not manufacturing standards, because those products we make will need to meet EU standards anyway for us to export to them. So the only thing we will have to offer companies is cheap labour, and the only way we can offer cheap labour is by slashing workers' rights. I'm probably repeating myself now in the same post, so i'll end my rant here.
Last edited by Imploding Turtle on Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

BennyD
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 1338 times
Has Liked: 757 times
Location: Nantwich

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BennyD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:11 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I think you missed my point. Not sure.
There's been a lot of speculation today that the ERG are supporting Johnson's / May's deal this time because they have concluded that they can convert it into "no deal" at the end of the transition period.
There doesn't seem any logical reason why otherwise they would support the deal given their total aversion to it before, and the fact that they actually proposed a bill that is currently in law to expressly rule out the "Irish Sea" border which was a red line for them and the DUP.
Incidentally, suggesting that Letwin and Benn, (along with Grieve presumably) are idiots doesn't really help support your argument. It's totally reasonable that you hold a different view to them, but they are extremely well-qualified, experienced, intelligent men, and for anyone to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
If they are so intelligent why are they putting their own desires above the wishes of the electorate and putting themselves in a position to be castigated by the people they claim to represent? Put simply, they are doing their level best to derail Brexit because they, personally, want us to stay rather than strive to deliver what the people want.

BennyD
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 1338 times
Has Liked: 757 times
Location: Nantwich

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BennyD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:17 pm

willsclarets wrote:Today's vote is not by any stretch "meaningless" except in legally binding terms. The amendments, quite rightly, ensure that the withdrawal agreement is given due process in ratification. In this instance a motion to pass the deal would be a technical extension and we'd leave on this deal. I'm not sure why so many people are against this, I know there's an appetite to just get it done, but legislative confirmation can't be bound into a motion passed after short debate (ie the motion shouldn't bypass the Benn Act)

In direct answer to your main query, if the amendments stop the motion satisfying the Benn Act, this also removes the possibility that the hardliners from the ERG pass this motion today then block it before legislation. At this point, no deal is the only option because the extension request will have been withdrawn.

It is also especially important to put this agreement through the scrutiny it deserves, because of the possibility of still leaving on a no deal after the initial transition period if a trade deal fails to materialise. Many hard brexiteers who rejected May's deal are backing this one, mainly because it allows the eventuality of a no deal even if this deal is passed. There needs to be necessary clarity (and legally binding amendments) that ensure the government takes the time it needs to negotiate a trade deal. This, rather than an opportunity for those who always wanted an opportunity to take us out on a no deal and see this motion as a way to facilitate it.

In short, this doesn't stop your brexit. It just makes sure we give it the time it deserves to be stamped by law.
Thank you for the explanation. I suspect the reason most Brexiteers are against an extension is because it;

a) Prolongs the agony
B) Gives another opportunity to the remainers to frustrate and maybe veto Brexit altogether.

This whole fiasco has done nothing for British Politics apart from creating scepticism, distrust, dislike bordering on hatred for the ‘other side’ and the sooner it is concluded, signed off and delivered, the better.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:18 pm

Darthlaw wrote:My point being UK workers rights could be slashed right now, to meet EU rights. The question I'm asking is what protections do EU workers rights offer?

I can see working time directive being abolished but seen as workers can waive their rights on this currently, isn't it just pointless legislation?
They could but they would be limits to which they could be slashed due to EU laws. My point isnt that the govt wants to do this now and need to leave the EU but that there is a longer term strategy from the rich big business backers who see the post Brexit economical position as the perfect opportunity to be able to get away with slashing workers rights without getting kicked out of power.

Of course this may not happen but to some it is a genuine concern and some of the areas that we could see it happen are in areas like limit on working hours, time off (48hrs per fortnight), annual leave, compensation rights for victims of discrimination, agency worker protection, H&S regs in the workplace.

Im sure there's a lot more nuanced and complex things that are beyond my comprehension of the law but for me its not what the govt want to do now but the risk to what goes on in the future

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:20 pm

BennyD wrote:Thank you for the explanation. I suspect the reason most Brexiteers are against an extension is because it;

a) Prolongs the agony
B) Gives another opportunity to the remainers to frustrate and maybe veto Brexit altogether.

This whole fiasco has done nothing for British Politics apart from creating scepticism, distrust, dislike bordering on hatred for the ‘other side’ and the sooner it is concluded, signed off and delivered, the better.
For a start, it looks like peace is going to be destroyed in Northern Ireland, so any healing is a pipe dream!

Lowbankclaret
Posts: 6571
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 1233 times
Has Liked: 56 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:21 pm

Anyone know what time they are going to start having a vote.

Flicking between the rugby and Parliament.

Don’t want to miss a vote.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9443
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:23 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You're right, we do have better workers' rights than what the EU laws mandate. The problem is going to come when we destroy our economy by leaving the EU and we have to slash these rights in order to attract business and investment. One of the reasons we can afford to have strong workers' rights right now is not just because the EU mandates them, but because we are competitive even with these rights. Once we reduce our competitiveness, once we have much less money and no single market access then to attract foreign investment we're going to have to become competitive, and the easiest, most obvious way to do that is to make labour cheaper.

It's not really that tough to understand, and i do appreciate your post. If we want to minimise the job losses as a result of Brexit then we're going to have to make people cheaper for companies to employ, otherwise if they're going to have to spend the same amount of money per employee as before then they may as well do that inside the single market where they'll get more for their money.
And if we expect manufacturing to come back (a pipe dream since it's not been lost to the EU) then it's going to have to be workers rights that are slashed, and not manufacturing standards, because those products we make will need to meet EU standards anyway for us to export to them. So the only thing we will have to offer companies is cheap labour, and the only way we can offer cheap labour is by slashing workers' rights. I'm probably repeating myself now in the same post, so i'll end my rant here.
So the only method to offer cheap labour is to slash workers rights, would another alternative method be - invest in plant machinery ect & training to make everything overall more efficient thus minimising costs? If you become more efficient you churn out more production & quality still maintaining the workers rights.
Companies need to spend on manafacturing tooling, machinery, & training & maintain SOP & everything will be more cost effective having no bearing on the workers rights.

Locked