Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:28 pm

The DUP are meeting with Boris, get yer chequebook out !

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:28 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:So the only method to offer cheap labour is to slash workers rights, would another alternative method be - invest in plant machinery ect & training to make everything overall more efficient thus minimising costs? If you become more efficient you churn out more production & quality still maintaining the workers rights.
Companies need to spend on manafacturing tooling, machinery, & training & maintain SOP & everything will be more cost effective having no bearing on the workers rights.

You really don't know how capitalism works, do you? How are these companies going to be mandated to "invest in plant machinery ect & training"? And when they're mandated to do that here what's stopping them moving to the EU where they're either not mandated to do that, or if they are mandated to do that then at least they're saving a fuckton on frictionless single market trade?

You're expecting them to choose to be more efficient, which is a no brainer anyway, but then expecting them to be less efficient on where they invest their labour costs.
So my question is if these companies choose to be more efficient and have cheaper labour that way then why would they choose to do that in the UK and not in the EU instead?

You clearly haven't thought through your post.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:29 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Anyone know what time they are going to start having a vote.

Flicking between the rugby and Parliament.

Don’t want to miss a vote.

2.30 i think.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:29 pm

If it be your will wrote:I agree the prospects don't look nearly as good as they once did. On the brexit issue Labour (or more precisely, by the looks of it, McDonnell) have been strategically hopeless since the EU elections. Corbyn looks broken to me, too - having gone against his own better judgment once too many times. So I don't think it will be this Labour administration in charge of events. But I do still think the neoliberal model is in its death throes, and being outside the EU's rules will mean the state will at least be able to step in and do something, should it be deemed necessary.

I honestly don't think the electorate would tolerate the kind of dystopian free-market wasteland some think we're heading towards, however much they manipulate them. But we'll see, I suppose.

The EU has countries that are quite a lot more progressive than we are. There are big socialist movements across the continent, and I'd guess that if the EU ditched the neoliberal elements you'd have no problem with us being in it? I'd say by remaining we can help change the EU, just as (in my opinion) Britain pushed it to be neoliberal in the first place.

We have too much of a dysfunctional media for our electorate to make effective decisions at the ballot box. Look at how austerity was broadly supported (in the beginning), and how the press filled pages with stories about people taking the system for a ride, and living off benefits. You're a leaver, but I don't think you blame the EU for the state of our NHS, housing, jobs, schools, and other reasons some people voted to leave. How did those people come to the decision that the EU was to blame, other than being told so by the press? The level of hatred - and I'm not using that word lightly - some people have toward Corbyn isn't because his socialism-lite policies work them up, but because the press has smeared and attacked him at every turn. I'm sure there's a point at which the UK public will say "enough is enough" - but working hand in hand the Tory Party and their newspaper propagandists are very good at getting the people of this country to agree to things that worsen their individual lives.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:38 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You really don't know how capitalism works, do you? How are these companies going to be mandated to "invest in plant machinery ect & training"? And when they're mandated to do that here what's stopping them moving to the EU where they're either not mandated to do that, or if they are mandated to do that then at least they're saving a fuckton on frictionless single market trade?

You're expecting them to choose to be more efficient, which is a no brainer anyway, but then expecting them to be less efficient on where they invest their labour costs.
So my question is if these companies choose to be more efficient and have cheaper labour that way then why would they choose to do that in the UK and not in the EU instead?

You clearly haven't thought through your post.

It boils down to poor management & failure to invest, its a poor excuse to blame it on brexit, I've worked in various engineering plants whilst being in the EU & the money wasn't & isn't being spent then on upgrading tooling & machinery & maintaining standard operating procedures, you could blame some of it on the HR recruiting substandard management but they'd say it's hard to recruit the right people due to the skill shortages, it's a problem which has been going on for decades whilst being a member in the EU.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:39 pm

Workers rights will become less and less of an issue as robots and AI computers take over.

The factory I work in has looked at robotics and around 90% of the shop floor workers could be replaced by robots.

Some will be next year, many will not yet due to budget restrictions and some due to the business case not stacking up yet.

Those business cases get closer to being acceptable as each year goes by due to workers wages going up and robots in real terms going down price.

5 years ago there were no robots, now there is over twenty and that’s set to double next year.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:40 pm

AndyClaret wrote:2.30 i think.

Oh dear hope they complete before the clarets kick off!

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Oh dear hope they complete before the clarets kick off!

Finally, an opinion leave and remain can unite on

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:48 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It boils down to poor management & failure to invest, its a poor excuse to blame it on brexit, I've worked in various engineering plants whilst being in the EU & the money wasn't & isn't being spent then on upgrading tooling & machinery & maintaining standard operating procedures, you could blame some of it on the HR recruiting substandard management but they'd say it's hard to recruit the right people due to the skill shortages, it's a problem which has been going on for decades whilst being a member in the EU.

I travel to a lot of Engineering companies around the UK.

Jucub, do you not see investment in Robots. I have seen plenty of investment in UK companies in new machinery, processes but in particular I see the biggest moves in designing out the person to compete and reduce costs.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:57 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I travel to a lot of Engineering companies around the UK.

Jucub, do you not see investment in Robots. I have seen plenty of investment in UK companies in new machinery, processes but in particular I see the biggest moves in designing out the person to compete and reduce costs.

Yes I do, it’s on the increase more & more & becoming computerised but then I’ve seen glitches due to the software installed or the robots settings not manually configured correctly, even the hi-tech stuff aren’t flawless. Eventually it’ll probably be all robotic on a mass scale don’t think it’ll be in my lifetime though.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:00 pm

Darthlaw wrote:IT, I keep hearing workers rights being negatively affected once we leave the EU. Genuinely here I'm wondering what impact this will have as so far I can only find where UK workers rights supersede that of EU ones. That said, I've only seen examples on what would appear to be pro-brexit websites.

What workers rights are we set to lose? To be clear - I'm not having a go, just looking for information.

I don't think there's any actual need for us to lower worker's rights, and the government is never going to publish a plan of doing this, but if you want to get an idea of the way some in cabinet think, then look at this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the wiki page for it, but if you google it you'll find various reviews from when it came out. Four out of the five authors are now in cabinet.

No Tory government campaigns on promises to cut working rights, but instead do it once in office either quietly - like the way they increased from one year to two the amount of time an employer can let you go for no reason when you start a job, or by charging (illegal) high fees for workers to take employers to industrial tribunals, or by adding more regulation to unions - or sold; "because we have to do this - we have no choice" - as they did with austerity. Bear in mind that the average UK worker is earning less than what they did before the crash - and this has to do with the cap on public sector pay (hold down public sector pay, and it also constrains pay in the private sector). Whereas in the 1960s people looked into the future and imagined a two day work week, because they assumed productivity gains would be shared between companies and workers, workers have seen little if anything from this.

So this government has over the last decade already reduced workers' rights and pay, but my thinking is that with any chaos or economic difficulties that ensue with brexit, they'll use that as an excuse to cut more.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Yes I do, it’s on the increase more & more & becoming computerised but then I’ve seen glitches due to the software installed or the robots settings not manually configured correctly, even the hi-tech stuff aren’t flawless. Eventually it’ll probably be all robotic on a mass scale don’t think it’ll be in my lifetime though.

There always glitches in new tech, we had a robot smash through a glass partition, but that was more down to human error not the robots.

Well Jacob I have no idea how old you are, at 55 I see it speeding up up rapidly in the last 5 years. I hope to retire in 5 years and I think we are going to see significantly increased amounts of robots.

McDonalds opened its first fully robotic takeaway in Texas. And haves plans to roll that out worldwide but at the moment franchise owners are not happy on the amount of investment they need to put in.

A Japanese insurance company sacked 300 employees and their jobs are now done by an AI computer.

Driverless cars, vans and lorries are coming, but that’s going to be ten years away in my humble opinion.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Ken Clarke backing the government despite major reservations,if a few others fall into that camp Boris could squeeze over the line.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:42 pm

I think I do speak for the public AndrewJB

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:08 pm

Oh dear. You were doing so well.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:12 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The EU has countries that are quite a lot more progressive than we are. There are big socialist movements across the continent, and I'd guess that if the EU ditched the neoliberal elements you'd have no problem with us being in it? I'd say by remaining we can help change the EU, just as (in my opinion) Britain pushed it to be neoliberal in the first place.

We have too much of a dysfunctional media for our electorate to make effective decisions at the ballot box. Look at how austerity was broadly supported (in the beginning), and how the press filled pages with stories about people taking the system for a ride, and living off benefits. You're a leaver, but I don't think you blame the EU for the state of our NHS, housing, jobs, schools, and other reasons some people voted to leave. How did those people come to the decision that the EU was to blame, other than being told so by the press? The level of hatred - and I'm not using that word lightly - some people have toward Corbyn isn't because his socialism-lite policies work them up, but because the press has smeared and attacked him at every turn. I'm sure there's a point at which the UK public will say "enough is enough" - but working hand in hand the Tory Party and their newspaper propagandists are very good at getting the people of this country to agree to things that worsen their individual lives.

I normally have a lot of time for your posts, but not this one; we’ve been in the EU for 40 odd years and have managed to change very little. If we somehow stayed in we would be properly screwed; we wouldn’t even be allowed our previous position of minimum influence, we would be be a major contributor with no voice.

The EU are at least partially responsible for the state of the NHS by allowing unfettered access to it by every waif and stray we couldn’t keep out and even those we can’t get rid of now they are here. NHS tourism is a major leech on resources and we don’t get any of it back. Acceptance of large numbers also put pressure on housing, schools and local infrastructure. We were held to ransom for years by France because they built their ‘reception centre’ at Sangatte in order to place temptation in the face of those refugees wanting the most money. Why isn’t there a common EU policy of allowances for refugees to prevent this type of situation? Probably it’s because it’s easier to let them come to us. Also, why are Syrian refugees accepted in such numbers and then allowed unrestricted access across Europe? They aren’t Europeans so, IMO, shouldn’t be allowed the ‘advantages’ of being Europeans. Btw, unrestricted travel across Europe for us is a myth; try getting across the channel without a passport.

I don’t need the press to tell me that Corbyn is incompetent; he voted leave, vacillated from leave to remain and back and now rubbishes the deal before having read it. Having said that, he is the puppet of the hard liners pulling his strings and because of that he appears even more uneasy and awkward than he should. Should, God forbid, Labour get the keys to No 10 Corbyn will be out on his ear before you can say WTF, and a Socialist heavy will succeed him and create long lasting mayhem.

I’m sick and fed up of this farce and the longer it grinds on the greater the damage to the country.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:17 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:There always glitches in new tech, we had a robot smash through a glass partition, but that was more down to human error not the robots.

I was at a demonstartion once for a new kind of law-enforcement robot. The guy introducing it asked for a volunteer and got some other fella to point a gun at it. The robot suddenly burst into life and told him to drop the gun but when he did the robot carried on threatening him. I could see all the technicians panicking and the guy was running around and we were all shouting, "noo stay away from meee", because the law enforcement robot was tracking him with his guns. After about fifteen seconds the robot gunned him down by firing more than five hundred rounds into him at close range and also wrecked a really cool model we had in there of a future city project.
I remember the CEO telling the project leader that he was really disappointed in him and that the company would go a different way.
It was like something from a film.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:19 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I don't think there's any actual need for us to lower worker's rights, and the government is never going to publish a plan of doing this, but if you want to get an idea of the way some in cabinet think, then look at this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the wiki page for it, but if you google it you'll find various reviews from when it came out. Four out of the five authors are now in cabinet.

No Tory government campaigns on promises to cut working rights, but instead do it once in office either quietly - like the way they increased from one year to two the amount of time an employer can let you go for no reason when you start a job, or by charging (illegal) high fees for workers to take employers to industrial tribunals, or by adding more regulation to unions - or sold; "because we have to do this - we have no choice" - as they did with austerity. Bear in mind that the average UK worker is earning less than what they did before the crash - and this has to do with the cap on public sector pay (hold down public sector pay, and it also constrains pay in the private sector). Whereas in the 1960s people looked into the future and imagined a two day work week, because they assumed productivity gains would be shared between companies and workers, workers have seen little if anything from this.

So this government has over the last decade already reduced workers' rights and pay, but my thinking is that with any chaos or economic difficulties that ensue with brexit, they'll use that as an excuse to cut more.

Its irrelevant what ministers or ex ministers have said and done in the past. Your whole premise relies on the fact that we will have a Tory government for ever. If we do have a Tory government long term, and they do indeed reduce workers rights, renege on environmental promises, then surely the workers would show their displeasure by voting for a different government. Then all those rights can be restored or improved on.
Workers rights are obviously very important, to me as well, but they aren't dependent on being in the EU, so the whole argument that we should remain in the EU to protect workers rights is a crock of ****. It's dependent on who we choose to represent us in Government. To suggest otherwise is straw clinging.
To put it the other way around. If Jeremy Corbyn won a GE, don't laugh, and promised to improve workers rights from what they are today, would you use that as an argument for leaving the EU. Of course you wouldn't.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:23 pm

Wilson 'hints DUP will back Letwin'
BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith tweets...

Social embed from twitter

norman smith
✔
@BBCNormanS
Big hint from Sammy Wilson that DUP will back Letwin. "We wd be failing in our duty if we did not use every strategy" to defeat this deal

norman smith
✔
@BBCNormanS
So..if DUP back Letwin - as now expected -looks almost certain to go through....

This could put the cat among the pigeons,BJ should have kept the DUP onside it seems,the WA might not even make it to a vote today.

Cue the blame game starting.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:24 pm

Summing up now, vote to be happening soon.

It will be historic no matter which way it goes.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:31 pm

tiger76 wrote:Wilson 'hints DUP will back Letwin'
BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith tweets...

Social embed from twitter

norman smith
✔
@BBCNormanS
Big hint from Sammy Wilson that DUP will back Letwin. "We wd be failing in our duty if we did not use every strategy" to defeat this deal

norman smith
✔
@BBCNormanS
So..if DUP back Letwin - as now expected -looks almost certain to go through....

This could put the cat among the pigeons,BJ should have kept the DUP onside it seems,the WA might not even make it to a vote today.

Cue the blame game starting.

Possibly why they are going to carry on till past 5 pm, as they know it’s going to be defeated by the Letwin bill.

Let’s see if he wins.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:39 pm

It's funny, because the only reason not to vote for the Letwin amendment would be if they secretly wanted a no deal brexit. But they've been denying that that's what they want. These **** are going to expose themselves as no deal brexiteers after lying for over 3 years

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:40 pm

Maybe Boris should ask the DUP for that £1bn back

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:44 pm

There's always an idiot isn't there.

Man arrested at Palace of Westminster
A man has been arrested for trespassing at the Palace of Westminster.

A spokeswoman for the House of Commons confirmed an "incident" had taken place involving a visitor to the Parliamentary estate.

"Security staff and the police attended and the situation has been resolved," she said.

At 1323hrs, officers arrested a 29-year-old man at the Palace of Westminster for trespassing at a protected site.

He has been taken to a south London police station.

Enquiries ongoing.

At least we know what Ash is doing today

BTW this isn't a serious allregation about super Ashley Barnes.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:50 pm

Letwin amendment carried.

Well well

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Letwin amendment carried.

Well well

Big margin too

322-306

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Well done Parliament.......time for Boris to write his letter

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:53 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Well done Parliament.......time for Boris to write his letter

Did he not just refuse???

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:55 pm

Looks like it so interested to see how our PM values the law of the country he leads

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:56 pm

Spijed wrote:Big margin too

322-306

Only 9 need to change their vote, so I think it was close to be fair.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:14 pm

I will be interested in finding out how many MPs who have said they will vote for the deal voted for the Letwin amendment.
Letwin being one of them

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:18 pm

BennyD wrote:I normally have a lot of time for your posts, but not this one; we’ve been in the EU for 40 odd years and have managed to change very little. If we somehow stayed in we would be properly screwed; we wouldn’t even be allowed our previous position of minimum influence, we would be be a major contributor with no voice.

The EU are at least partially responsible for the state of the NHS by allowing unfettered access to it by every waif and stray we couldn’t keep out and even those we can’t get rid of now they are here. NHS tourism is a major leech on resources and we don’t get any of it back. Acceptance of large numbers also put pressure on housing, schools and local infrastructure. We were held to ransom for years by France because they built their ‘reception centre’ at Sangatte in order to place temptation in the face of those refugees wanting the most money. Why isn’t there a common EU policy of allowances for refugees to prevent this type of situation? Probably it’s because it’s easier to let them come to us. Also, why are Syrian refugees accepted in such numbers and then allowed unrestricted access across Europe? They aren’t Europeans so, IMO, shouldn’t be allowed the ‘advantages’ of being Europeans. Btw, unrestricted travel across Europe for us is a myth; try getting across the channel without a passport.

I don’t need the press to tell me that Corbyn is incompetent; he voted leave, vacillated from leave to remain and back and now rubbishes the deal before having read it. Having said that, he is the puppet of the hard liners pulling his strings and because of that he appears even more uneasy and awkward than he should. Should, God forbid, Labour get the keys to No 10 Corbyn will be out on his ear before you can say WTF, and a Socialist heavy will succeed him and create long lasting mayhem.

I’m sick and fed up of this farce and the longer it grinds on the greater the damage to the country.

Under EU rules a person moving from one country to another has to have health insurance and cannot apply for out of work benefits for five years. Why do you think there’s a European health card? People who come here from outside the EU (and which has nothing to do with h our membership of the EU) pay thousands for health insurance. The poor state of our NHS is the fault of our government.

You say you don’t need the media to tell you Corbyn is incompetent to know he is, so how did you discover this in the first place? What evidence did you seduce this from, and if competence is so important to you, how do you reconcile that with our current PMs track record of incompetence?

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:19 pm

Johnson requests extension from EU

EU say no

Johnson brings back WA vote to parliament

Parliament pass WA because the only alternative is no-deal exit

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:23 pm

That would be the debate of all debates in Parliament.
The look on faces on the Labour front bench would be priceless.

Alas difficult to think it would happen. Poetic justice if it did happen

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:32 pm

Jeremy says Parliament has clearly spoken. 322 to 306. That's 51%:49%. Quite clearly in, "**** them. I'm ignoring it" territory. By their own definition.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:40 pm

More flesh on the bones.

The division list for the Letwin amendment shows 231 Labour MPs voted for it alongside the 10 DUP MPs.

They were joined by 19 Liberal Democrats, 35 SNP, 17 Independents, four Plaid Cymru, five Independent Group for Change and the Green Party MP Caroline Lucas.

283 Conservative MPs voted against, along with six Labour MPs and 17 Independents.

The six Labour MPs who rebelled to oppose the Letwin amendment were: Kevin Barron (Rother Valley), Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley), Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse), Caroline Flint (Don Valley), Kate Hoey (Vauxhall), and John Mann (Bassetlaw).

Obviously Julie Cooper voted in favour of the Letwin Amendment,sooner or later she'll have to face the Burnley electorate,and will be asked to justify her decisions.

The DUP'S 10 votes proved decisive as they may well be in next week's votes,Boris could rue the day he threw them under the bus.

CrispyClaret · Post by **CrispyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:40 pm

The law now requires BJ to write and ask for an extension. He has until 23:00 on the 31 October, all he has to do is hang on and resign as PM at 22:55. No law broken and out we go without a deal.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:45 pm

tiger76 wrote:More flesh on the bones.

The division list for the Letwin amendment shows 231 Labour MPs voted for it alongside the 10 DUP MPs.

They were joined by 19 Liberal Democrats, 35 SNP, 17 Independents, four Plaid Cymru, five Independent Group for Change and the Green Party MP Caroline Lucas.

283 Conservative MPs voted against, along with six Labour MPs and 17 Independents.

The six Labour MPs who rebelled to oppose the Letwin amendment were: Kevin Barron (Rother Valley), Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley), Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse), Caroline Flint (Don Valley), Kate Hoey (Vauxhall), and John Mann (Bassetlaw).

Obviously Julie Cooper voted in favour of the Letwin Amendment,sooner or later she'll have to face the Burnley electorate,and will be asked to justify her decisions.

The DUP'S 10 votes proved decisive as they may well be in next week's votes,Boris could rue the day he threw them under the bus.

The numbers are there for the deal, a number of mp's (like letwin) have already said they will vote for it.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:51 pm

CrispyClaret wrote:The law now requires BJ to write and ask for an extension. He has until 23:00 on the 31 October, all he has to do is hang on and resign as PM at 22:55. No law broken and out we go without a deal.

He has until 11pm tonight.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 pm

CrispyClaret wrote:The law now requires BJ to write and ask for an extension. He has until 23:00 on the 31 October, all he has to do is hang on and resign as PM at 22:55. No law broken and out we go without a deal.

Doesn't the letter have to be sent today and the 31st is the deadline still for him to get a deal through before the extension (if granted) kicks in

CrispyClaret · Post by **CrispyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:53 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Doesn't the letter have to be sent today and the 31st is the deadline still for him to get a deal through before the extension (if granted) kicks in

Yes missed that bit. Stupid of me

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:54 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Doesn't the letter have to be sent today and the 31st is the deadline still for him to get a deal through before the extension (if granted) kicks in

And hasn't he given a written undertaking with the Scottish court that he will send the letter?

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:55 pm

Well Letwin has got his legacy and the rest of the country has to grind on in uncertainty because of it. What a bunch of *****.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:57 pm

Mala591 wrote:Johnson requests extension from EU

EU say no

Johnson brings back WA vote to parliament

Parliament pass WA because the only alternative is no-deal exit

This is definitely a possibility but at least the Benn Act will have resulted in there being a deal to vote on rather than the risk of Johnson not conceding the ground he has to the EU, not agreeing any deal and therefore crashing us out on No Deal without Parliament getting any say.

Wont be the outcome I would like but it will have been far more democratic than the tactics Cummings and co were trying to implement when they prorogued Parliament

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Its irrelevant what ministers or ex ministers have said and done in the past. Your whole premise relies on the fact that we will have a Tory government for ever. If we do have a Tory government long term, and they do indeed reduce workers rights, renege on environmental promises, then surely the workers would show their displeasure by voting for a different government. Then all those rights can be restored or improved on.
Workers rights are obviously very important, to me as well, but they aren't dependent on being in the EU, so the whole argument that we should remain in the EU to protect workers rights is a crock of ****. It's dependent on who we choose to represent us in Government. To suggest otherwise is straw clinging.
To put it the other way around. If Jeremy Corbyn won a GE, don't laugh, and promised to improve workers rights from what they are today, would you use that as an argument for leaving the EU. Of course you wouldn't.

How is it irrelevant what those ministers have said and done in the past?And the actual Tory track record of reducing workers rights should be dismissed too?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:59 pm

Mala591 wrote:Johnson requests extension from EU

EU say no

Johnson brings back WA vote to parliament

Parliament pass WA because the only alternative is no-deal exit

The risk with that is that not only will our economy have to deal with no-deal, but so will any EU member that says no.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:00 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:He has until 11pm tonight.

Got the distinct impression he is not going to send any letter.

Which might mean, some MP’s who supported him today might well not support him any further.

In no way do I support him breaking the law, he must send the letter.

I also don’t agree with the Tories using under hand tactics to get this over the line.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:03 pm

The letter will be sent, but he will also tell them that a delay isn't government policy.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:03 pm

Spijed wrote:The risk with that is that not only will our economy have to deal with no-deal, but so will any EU member that says no.

Im not saying the EU will do it but im pretty sure if the EU denied an extension Johnson would get the deal through. I also think the EU are good with this deal so it isnt out the question the EU can play it tactically and can see Mala's point

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:03 pm

AndrewJB wrote:How is it irrelevant what those ministers have said and done in the past?And the actual Tory track record of reducing workers rights should be dismissed too?

You are obviously missing the point. If you don't like the Tories track record, don't vote Tory. Corbyn and Abbott keep telling everyone that Labour will win the next elections, so that would make the Tories track record irrelevant.