Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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CombatClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:50 am

dsr wrote:That applies if all you want to boil life down to is macroeconomics and university doctorates. I would rather have the old bloke than the permanent student when it comes to knowing what to do when the pipes start leaking.
If the pipes start leaking I'd rather have a plumber, that's the point.
In Jaku's word whatever the complex problem, he'd rather have the old veteran with this intangible and unquantifiable 'wisdom' than the highly trained and experienced expert in whatever field the situation called for.
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jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:53 am

Paul Waine wrote:???? I was at an event this evening - part of celebration of Black history month. The (well known) key speaker is a British Nigerian. He was speaking about Britain's black history - and lancashire cotton is a big part of it. I think we might all have been foreigners to one or two on here. We were all friends at the celebration.
Can you explain why you think leaving the EU benefits the UK? I’ll hold my hands up, harsh comment previously but I just don’t understand why exactly people feel the way they do. I don’t get it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:58 am

jontybfc wrote:You can’t have a discussion with people who won’t listen, more or less every post on this thread discussing the benefits of the eu involves facts or expert predictions. We were promised so much once we left and now we want to make sure we damage so little. In any other circumstance it would be a disgrace. I just don’t get it. No one gives reasons to leave.
I want utilities under monopoly state ownership and be made democratically accountable, rather than accountable to shareholders
I want to curtail the continent-wide labour arbitrage inherent in the 'Four Freedoms'
I want the railways under monopoly state ownership and made democratically accountable
I want to escape the ECJ judgments of Viking Line and Laval
I want a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to nascent British Industry, like North Dakota has
I want the option of the state to step in, rescue, and if necessary subsidise vital national assets, such as British Steel
I want to stop the outsourcing of the NHS
I want the UK to be world leaders in specific, forward-looking industries, which will inevitably require subsidies to begin with
I want to escape CAP, the most egregious transfer of wealth from poor to rich imaginable

Right, you might disagree with all of these things. You might (mistakenly) believe all these things can be done as a member of the EU. But never again can you honestly say No-one gives reasons to leave.
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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:02 am

CombatClaret wrote:If the pipes start leaking I'd rather have a plumber, that's the point.
In Jaku's word whatever the complex problem, he'd rather have the old veteran with this intangible and unquantifiable 'wisdom' than the highly trained and experienced expert in whatever field the situation called for.
I know from experience that students who have never had a job or owned a house do not necessarily know how many beans make five where day-to-day living is concerned. I didn't myself. The old bloke knows how to turn the water off and where to find a plumber; the young bloke knows the potential macro-economic effect of his house flooding. Generalisation, I know, but there are a lot of them about. Don't reject the old bloke's view of politics just because he spent 14 years less at school.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:03 am

If it be your will wrote:I want utilities under monopoly state ownership and be made democratically accountable, rather than accountable to shareholders
I want to curtail the continent-wide labour arbitrage inherent in the 'Four Freedoms'
I want the railways under monopoly state ownership and made democratically accountable
I want to escape the ECJ judgments of Viking Line and Laval
I want a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to nascent British Industry, like North Dakota has
I want the option of the state to step in, rescue, and if necessary subsidise vital national assets, such as British Steel
I want to stop the outsourcing of the NHS
I want the UK to be world leaders in specific, forward-looking industries, which will inevitably require subsidies to begin with
I want to escape CAP, the most egregious transfer of wealth from poor to rich imaginable

Right, you might disagree with all of these things. You might (mistakenly) believe all these things can be done as a member of the EU. But never again can you honestly say No-one gives reasons to leave.
Just to help me out, how were the EU the cause for these?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:04 am

jontybfc wrote:Just to help me out, how were the EU the cause for these?
The EU forbids all of these.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:08 am

There are many things wrong with a Second Referendum.

I'll just mention one tonight.

Those wanting to ignore the People's Vote of 2016 claim people voting leave then did not really understand things so could not know what they were voting for. I've heard this or something similar repeatedly over the last 3 years.

Here's the crunch.

Those same people are now telling us that it is only fair those same leave voters should be given the chance to vote on Boris Johnson:s deal with Remain back on the ballot paper.
The first question was a simple Yes or No on a simple question Do you want to remain or leave the EU?
Those same leave voters having been told you didn't really understand that first simple question are now being told we trust you that you will be able to understand the deal that has just been struck.

Now my message to these fantasists is catch yourself on. We are talking about a deal that we are told is hundreds and hundreds of pages long, so complicated that Parliamentarians, skilled in political matters, need weeks and months to digest and scrutinise.

Oh dear!
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jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:14 am

If it be your will wrote:The EU forbids all of these.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-d ... ways-61180" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only looked at one but it’s not clear cut.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:17 am

Elizabeth wrote:There are many things wrong with a Second Referendum.

I'll just mention one tonight.

Those wanting to ignore the People's Vote of 2016 claim people voting leave then did not really understand things so could not know what they were voting for. I've heard this or something similar repeatedly over the last 3 years.

Here's the crunch.

Those same people are now telling us that it is only fair those same leave voters should be given the chance to vote on Boris Johnson:s deal with Remain back on the ballot paper.
The first question was a simple Yes or No on a simple question Do you want to remain or leave the EU?
Those same leave voters having been told you didn't really understand that first simple question are now being told we trust you that you will be able to understand the deal that has just been struck.

Now my message to these fantasists is catch yourself on. We are talking about a deal that we are told is hundreds and hundreds of pages long, so complicated that Parliamentarians, skilled in political matters, need weeks and months to digest and scrutinise.

Oh dear!
Nigel Farage, the brexiteer king hates Johnson’s deal. It’s not brexit in his eyes. So if we leave on BJ deal would he vote leave or remain?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:18 am

Elizabeth wrote:There are many things wrong with a Second Referendum.

I'll just mention one tonight.

Those wanting to ignore the People's Vote of 2016 claim people voting leave then did not really understand things so could not know what they were voting for. I've heard this or something similar repeatedly over the last 3 years.

Here's the crunch.

Those same people are now telling us that it is only fair those same leave voters should be given the chance to vote on Boris Johnson:s deal with Remain back on the ballot paper.
The first question was a simple Yes or No on a simple question Do you want to remain or leave the EU?
Those same leave voters having been told you didn't really understand that first simple question are now being told we trust you that you will be able to understand the deal that has just been struck.

Now my message to these fantasists is catch yourself on. We are talking about a deal that we are told is hundreds and hundreds of pages long, so complicated that Parliamentarians, skilled in political matters, need weeks and months to digest and scrutinise.

Oh dear!

Maybe we should fund schooling better so that those Leave voters can learn to read.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:22 am

With the utmost of respect what has your question got to do with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave the UK in 2016 and the millions of people who voted to remain who have subsequently respected that vote without calling for another chance to change it.
I will only humour you to the point of saying Nigel Farage has one vote, no more or no less than me or you

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:23 am

They could read the word Leave well enough

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:27 am

jontybfc wrote:http://theconversation.com/fact-check-d ... ways-61180

Only looked at one but it’s not clear cut.
It is clear cut. You absolutely cannot have a monopoly state-owned railway where services are not subject to a competitive tendering process whilst an EU member. That's why no EU country has one.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ra ... es/2013_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:30 am

Elizabeth wrote:With the utmost of respect what has your question got to do with the 17.4 million people who voted to leave the UK in 2016 and the millions of people who voted to remain who have subsequently respected that vote without calling for another chance to change it.
I will only humour you to the point of saying Nigel Farage has one vote, no more or no less than me or you
The point is you have the extremist Farage types, you have the people who ‘just voted to leave’ and you have the people who voted purely on the mystical magical leave campaign.

Now we have all the facts, deals, no deals, remains, lies, truths (apparently from both leave and remain), why don’t we just ask again. Are you sure?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:33 am

If it be your will wrote:It is clear cut. You absolutely cannot have a monopoly state-owned railway where services are not subject to a competitive tendering process whilst an EU member. That's why no EU country has one.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ra ... es/2013_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I still don’t get your point. Every EU country I’ve been to has a significantly better railway system than we do. Why’s that?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:47 am

Yes I'm as sure about not having a Second Referendum Jonty as I am that the Labour Party are only going to have a chance in any GE if they put aside their opposition to this deal and concentrate on beating the Tories by attacking them on their austerity measures over the last decade.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:19 am

Eight local authority by-elections were held yesterday, the Conservatives held four seats, Labour held two. The Lib Dem's gained one seat from the Conservatives ( Powys UA ), whilst the Conservatives took one from Labour in Daventry.

Looking into the figures, Labour lost 20% of it's vote share to the Lib Dems and the Greens in a strong Labour area in Exeter, and there was a 12% plus swing from Labour to the Conservatives, in the seat they lost in Daventry. Nothing here suggests that Labour are going to be in any hurry to take up Mr Johnson's offer of an early election. It seems that the great British public aren't quite ready to carry Mr Corbyn and his comrades shoulder high into the " Palaces of the mighty ", just yet ..... ;)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:32 am

jontybfc wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -recession

No-deal Brexit could cause £30bn economic hit, watchdog says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... posals.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:26 am

dsr wrote:Perhaps that's the point. Older people have got past the "Janet and John" approach to politics.

In general, when anyone has the attitude of "I know all the answers and anyone who disagrees is wrong", their opinions are not reliable. And there are plenty of them on here.
Presumably you haven’t got a mirror.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:38 am

If it be your will wrote:Weird you say this, because I think precisely the opposite. I think the only hope in hell of Labour winning is to get back most of the Labour leave vote that has recently deserted them. If Brexit is still in the balance, they'll go with the Tories to get it over the line. If Brexit is already dealt with, they might (might) forgive Labour and reluctantly return. They might (might) also get some of the ultra-remainers back from the Lib Dems, too.

(I'm actually pretty certain Labour have blown it either way, though.)
Great. In 2017 Labour surged as everyone loved the Magic Grandpa and the Conservatives were dealt the crippling blow of ...... having a 17 seat majority.

This is your best chance. Johnson is clearly useless and in a GE campaign the extra scrutiny and coverage given to all parties will really affect him.

This is your best (and only) chance.

But at the same time, I can see why its also good politics to let Johnson keep losing everything everytime he tries something. That will hit home with a lot of voters as well.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:43 am

If it be your will wrote:I want utilities under monopoly state ownership and be made democratically accountable, rather than accountable to shareholders
I want to curtail the continent-wide labour arbitrage inherent in the 'Four Freedoms'
I want the railways under monopoly state ownership and made democratically accountable
I want to escape the ECJ judgments of Viking Line and Laval
I want a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to nascent British Industry, like North Dakota has
I want the option of the state to step in, rescue, and if necessary subsidise vital national assets, such as British Steel
I want to stop the outsourcing of the NHS
I want the UK to be world leaders in specific, forward-looking industries, which will inevitably require subsidies to begin with
I want to escape CAP, the most egregious transfer of wealth from poor to rich imaginable

Right, you might disagree with all of these things. You might (mistakenly) believe all these things can be done as a member of the EU. But never again can you honestly say No-one gives reasons to leave.
You do realise that the vast majority in the Conservative party who want to leave supported their own government when they privatised all the industries you've listed above.

Talk about hypocrisy as the privatisation of the railways had absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:43 am

dsr wrote:Perhaps that's the point. Older people have got past the "Janet and John" approach to politics.

In general, when anyone has the attitude of "I know all the answers and anyone who disagrees is wrong", their opinions are not reliable. And there are plenty of them on here.
There certainly are

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:46 am

dsr wrote:That applies if all you want to boil life down to is macroeconomics and university doctorates. I would rather have the old bloke than the permanent student when it comes to knowing what to do when the pipes start leaking.
Yeah, if I was fixing a boiler.

These threads make you come across as a proper whopper by the way.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:46 am

jontybfc wrote:If you could present an economic model or forecast that predicts the benefits to us for leaving then I’d love to see it. I’m just going off what almost every expert says. I’m yet to read a better deal situation than the one we already have. If you have it, let me know, might change my mind.
I'd love to see one as well.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:56 am

If it be your will wrote:I want utilities under monopoly state ownership and be made democratically accountable, rather than accountable to shareholders
I want to curtail the continent-wide labour arbitrage inherent in the 'Four Freedoms'
I want the railways under monopoly state ownership and made democratically accountable
I want to escape the ECJ judgments of Viking Line and Laval
I want a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to nascent British Industry, like North Dakota has
I want the option of the state to step in, rescue, and if necessary subsidise vital national assets, such as British Steel
I want to stop the outsourcing of the NHS
I want the UK to be world leaders in specific, forward-looking industries, which will inevitably require subsidies to begin with
I want to escape CAP, the most egregious transfer of wealth from poor to rich imaginable

Right, you might disagree with all of these things. You might (mistakenly) believe all these things can be done as a member of the EU. But never again can you honestly say No-one gives reasons to leave.
Fantastic

Now can you explain how you get that without going through a catastrophic Tory Brexit first, followed by a complete rethink of how Labour members view the EU, followed by actually winning an election on that manifesto, followed by actually having the money to enact all those things?

I appreciate your views and I do sympathise with them, but they are just as batshit mental as dsr wet dream economics visions.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:59 am

dsr wrote:I know from experience that students who have never had a job or owned a house do not necessarily know how many beans make five where day-to-day living is concerned. I didn't myself. The old bloke knows how to turn the water off and where to find a plumber; the young bloke knows the potential macro-economic effect of his house flooding. Generalisation, I know, but there are a lot of them about. Don't reject the old bloke's view of politics just because he spent 14 years less at school.
Seriously mate, every post you make like this isn't helping your cause one bit.

You call an expert in who knows how to solve the problem you have.

Its not that hard

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:03 am

And I appreciate that it seems I'm picking on you, but I'm not.

You've just highlighted what is wrong with this whole thing from the start.

Its very telling that I don't need to argue the economic implications of this anymore isn't it?

I won that argument on here months ago*. Its now accepted that we take a huge hit, so we now concentrate on the other, slightly more nebulous advantages of Brexit

*not me personally, but you know what I mean, the economic argument for Brexit is dead

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TVC15 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:10 am

dsr wrote:I know from experience that students who have never had a job or owned a house do not necessarily know how many beans make five where day-to-day living is concerned. I didn't myself. The old bloke knows how to turn the water off and where to find a plumber; the young bloke knows the potential macro-economic effect of his house flooding. Generalisation, I know, but there are a lot of them about. Don't reject the old bloke's view of politics just because he spent 14 years less at school.
WTAF !
There’s a lot of daft posts on this thread but this is up there with the daftest.
Have you ever read Victorian Dad in Viz ? You should - though it might sound a bit like your autobiography !
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:42 am

Johnson and the Governments strategic failings nailed here

https://twitter.com/jillongovt/status/1 ... 9959475200" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:46 am

Paul Waine wrote:Here you go, DA,

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... rective_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive

On 28 January 2016 the Commission presented its proposal for an Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive as part of the Anti-Tax Avoidance Package. On 20 June 2016 the Council adopted the Directive (EU) 2016/1164 laying down rules against tax avoidance practices that directly affect the functioning of the internal market.
In order to provide for a comprehensive framework of anti-abuse measures the Commission presented its proposal
Search for available translations of the preceding link
••• on 25th October 2016, to complement the existing rule on hybrid mismatches. The rule on hybrid mismatches aims to prevent companies from exploiting national mismatches to avoid taxation.

The Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive contains five legally-binding anti-abuse measures, which all Member States should apply against common forms of aggressive tax planning.

Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019.

It creates a minimum level of protection against corporate tax avoidance throughout the EU, while ensuring a fairer and more stable environment for businesses.
The anti-avoidance measures in the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive other than the rule on hybrid mismatches, are:

Controlled foreign company (CFC) rule: to deter profit shifting to a low/no tax country.

Switchover rule: to prevent double non-taxation of certain income.

Exit taxation: to prevent companies from avoiding tax when re-locating assets.

Interest limitation: to discourage artificial debt arrangements designed to minimise taxes.

General anti-abuse rule: to counteract aggressive tax planning when other rules don’t apply.

1) We see that these rules apply to corporations.
2) By and large, without getting into the minutia of tax law, the UK has had these, or the equivalent tax laws for a very long time. The "Interest limitation" directive is the equivalent of what's known as the "thin capitalisation" rule: the offshore parent company sets up a UK subsidiary, pays in a little equity and finances the rest with debt. Of course, the interest on the debt takes profits out of the UK company - interest is tax free, whereas dividends are paid to the parent company only after corporation tax has been paid. Thin cap rules put a limit, so that the UK company still pays tax equivalent to the "excess interest" as though it was a dividend payment.

3) Yes, in other EU countries these schemes that the directive rules against, would previously have worked.

4) My guess is that UK tax specialists were included in the group that advised the EU on making these new regs. Who knows, maybe someone who posts on here has been involved in the debates concerning the development of these regs.
Cheers Paul. The second part of my post was a little hyperbolic and whilst I think a lot of Brexit is about the Rich elites chance to get even more richer and powerful taxation would only be a part of that and not a driver as I implied.

The bit Im unsure on and got find a dedicated summary towards it is the the Exit tax which is due to come in Jan 2020. From what Ive read it sounds like the UK had adopted a lot of this but there are some amendments to come in to play.

What I haven't been able to ascertain is what rules have the UK currently got around the Exit tax directive and what will change on 2020. This seems the one that some of the very key players in funding Brexit could be concerned about. If you can shed any light on this Id like to educate myself a bit more.

On reflection the die in the ditch and get an election asap is likely more just a tactic to keep people are their side and win an election than fear of the EU tax laws but I definitely think the narrative move from a great deal to a clean break over the last few years has had some pre thought out strategy from the backers of Brexit who will no doubt benefit hugely whilst a lot of the working class places struggle and fall apart.

Anyhow over to you if you can shed any more light on the Exit tax changes.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:08 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Seriously mate, every post you make like this isn't helping your cause one bit.

You call an expert in who knows how to solve the problem you have.

Its not that hard
And for students, most of the time the experts are their parents. What does a 20 year old university student do when he wants to buy his first car? He asks Mum and Dad.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:11 am

martin_p wrote:Presumably you haven’t got a mirror.
I put forward arguments; I don't tell people that they are stupid. Lancaster (and others, but he is the worst of the to-be-taken-seriously people) thinks that I (and others) am stupid and a liar because I don't see things his way. And he frequently says so. Whereas I disagree with Lancaster just as much as he disagrees with me, but I don't call him stupid or a liar, because I understand that my way is not the only way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:30 am

dsr wrote:And for students, most of the time the experts are their parents. What does a 20 year old university student do when he wants to buy his first car? He asks Mum and Dad.
But again, that only proves my point again

You wouldn't go to your parents for advice on how a trade agreement between two countries work would you?

You'd consult an expert, and if you were sensible, considerably more than one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:37 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Yes that true, it’s absolutely impossible it’s a irrefutable fact, you cannot replace the wisdom of say a 70 year old men/women probably even older who maybe served in the war .
Very few in their 70s or indeed 80s served in any war, and certainly not in any European war.
To have had any chance at all of serving in WW2 you would have to be well into your 90s now, and the number of surviving servicemen is now very small. Most of those in their 70s are from the generation who have had everything, and in many cases got to retire early with many benefits.
Surveys suggest that those born between 1947 and 1955 have had the best deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:37 am

jontybfc wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -recession

No-deal Brexit could cause £30bn economic hit, watchdog says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... posals.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi jonty, is this your own work? We don't get any marks for plagiarism, I understand.

I'm only prepared to discuss economic models with people who have constructed their own. I'm happy to debate with the people who hve built the models referenced in your links - but I don't think any of those people are posting on here.

If you have your own model, yes, I'm very happy to debate with you.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:37 am

dsr wrote:I put forward arguments; I don't tell people that they are stupid. Lancaster (and others, but he is the worst of the to-be-taken-seriously people) thinks that I (and others) am stupid and a liar because I don't see things his way. And he frequently says so. Whereas I disagree with Lancaster just as much as he disagrees with me, but I don't call him stupid or a liar, because I understand that my way is not the only way.
I'm weird like that.

I call "bullshit" when I see it.

Not my problem to be honest if you can't deal with that.

Definately your problem if you don't learn from the experience of bullshitting to me and getting called out for doing it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:41 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi jonty, is this your own work? We don't get any marks for plagiarism, I understand.

I'm only prepared to discuss economic models with people who have constructed their own. I'm happy to debate with the people who hve built the models referenced in your links - but I don't think any of those people are posting on here.

If you have your own model, yes, I'm very happy to debate with you.
No it's not plagiarism. He's clearly referenced his sources, which is exactly what you're supposed to do.
For blatant examples of unreferenced plagiarism, see Ringo.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:42 am

jontybfc wrote:Can you explain why you think leaving the EU benefits the UK? I’ll hold my hands up, harsh comment previously but I just don’t understand why exactly people feel the way they do. I don’t get it.

Hi jonty, I have made that argument - and I've posted a number of times on this mb, and also on this thread. And, my argument is it's better for the EU as well as better for the UK - and with the UK remaining a friend and supporter of the efforts of the rEU. I'm not one of those who wants to remain - and veto everything the EU wants to do that doesn't suit the UK. Surely, that's only a selfish way to be in the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'd love to see one as well.
Hi Lancs, why don't you give it a try and build one for yourself. Best way to learn. ;)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:49 am

nil_desperandum wrote:No it's not plagiarism. He's clearly referenced his sources, which is exactly what you're supposed to do.
For blatant examples of unreferenced plagiarism, see Ringo.
Hi nil_d, I'm asking jonty to build his own model. I don't mind him quoting sources, but I do want him to demonstrate a little more understanding than ctrl c/ctrl v.

When he's built his own model - or anyone else on here - I'll put mine alongside it and we can debate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi nil_d, I'm asking jonty to build his own model. I don't mind him quoting sources, but I do want him to demonstrate a little more understanding than ctrl c/ctrl v.

When he's built his own model - or anyone else on here - I'll put mine alongside it and we can debate.
You’re not fooling anyone, Paul.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:54 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Very few in their 70s or indeed 80s served in any war, and certainly not in any European war.
To have had any chance at all of serving in WW2 you would have to be well into your 90s now, and the number of surviving servicemen is now very small. Most of those in their 70s are from the generation who have had everything, and in many cases got to retire early with many benefits.
Surveys suggest that those born between 1947 and 1955 have had the best deal.
Without checking dates, people in 70s/80s may well have done national service. Korean war may have been over when the 80 year olds did their bit. A lot of other "smaller" military action going on mid-50s to mid-60s.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:55 am

Greenmile wrote:You’re not fooling anyone, Paul.
Hi Greenmile, do you want to give it a go - and build your own economic model?

Pleased you've noticed I'm "not fooling anyone" - but, what do you mean by that? Care to elaborate?

EDIT: Come on, guys. There are so many on here claiming that they know something - but all you are doing is copy/paste from something you've read.

Let's show some real knowledge and understanding.

There's another thread that several have posted on a couple of days back - they will all know which one it is - where they show absolutely no knowledge and understanding - while claiming that this was their own area of direct experience and expertise.
Last edited by Paul Waine on Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:57 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Greenmile, do you want to give it a go - and build your own economic model?

Pleased you've noticed I'm "not fooling anyone" - but, what do you mean by that? Care to elaborate?
Nobody believes you’ve built your own economic model in favour of Brexit and are choosing not to share it with us.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by atlantalad » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Seriously mate, every post you make like this isn't helping your cause one bit.

You call an expert in who knows how to solve the problem you have.

Its not that hard
Isn't that the crux with what's wrong with today's (UK) society? The majority have no self confidence and seek out "expert" advice and services for all things rather than taking on things / thinking for, themselves ( whether that's fixing a leaking pipe, financial advice, saving advice, repairing car, repairing PC, best TV to buy, etc)

The majority of people today have had the "self sufficiency" and "self determination" knocked out of them and rely on the advice and "expertise" of others for even the simplest of tasks and decisions.

Is there always someone more of an "expert" than thyself?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:01 am

Greenmile wrote:Nobody believes you’ve built your own economic model in favour of Brexit and are choosing not to share it with us.
Too bad, Greenmile.

The thing is, I know I can do it. Can you build one to support your position?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:05 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm weird like that.

I call "[deleted]" when I see it.

Not my problem to be honest if you can't deal with that.

Definately your problem if you don't learn from the experience of [deleted] to me and getting called out for doing it.
That makes my point exactly. You are so convinced that your own view is right that you cannot see that other people have different views.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:05 am

Paul Waine wrote:Too bad, Greenmile.

The thing is, I know I can do it. Can you build one to support your position?
There’s a very simple way of proving me wrong, Paul, but you won’t, because you can’t.

I couldn’t build an economic case from scratch, no, but I’m not the one pretending I can. I just rely on the experts instead.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:07 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:But again, that only proves my point again

You wouldn't go to your parents for advice on how a trade agreement between two countries work would you?

You'd consult an expert, and if you were sensible, considerably more than one.
If your mother (or father) was an economist it would be surprising if you didn't.

I started studying economics for O-level, 1968, I think. The text books back then could explain how a trade agreement worked between two countries. Lipsey was one of the standard books - all the way from O-level thru to degree. The other one was Samuelson.

Where does your definition of "expert" kick in? BA? MA? PhD? Professor? working professionally in that area?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 am

Greenmile wrote:There’s a very simple way of proving me wrong, Paul, but you won’t, because you can’t.

I couldn’t build an economic case from scratch, no, but I’m not the one pretending I can. I just rely on the experts instead.
Thing is Greenmile, I'm not pretending.

I'm asking all the ones on here to show that they have the knowledge and understanding of economic models.

Think of it like you need to call a plumber: do you know what a good plumber should be capable of doing or will you just be calling in the cowboys?

There's a van I see every now and again: "When the cowboys have failed, call in the Indians." I believe they run a successful plumbing business.

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