Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:43 pm

AndrewJB wrote:https://www.ft.com/content/5eb0944e-f67 ... a8fc8f2d65

Oh look. A leaked government document in which they discuss reducing workers rights and environmental regulations. This is less than a week since Johnson promised Labour MPs that he'd not look to do this. Anyone still going to insist that Johnson's casual relationship with honesty is no big deal? Is reduced rights and weakened environmental protections what ordinary working people were thinking of when they voted to take back control?

Another link in case the FT's is tiresome:

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-26/eu- ... rs-rights/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is the FT link the proposal that increases minimum wage from £8.21 to £10.50? I'm not sure you can really call that "deviation from EU standards" because the EU doesn't have a minimum wage. And I'm sure it doesn't really count as "reducing workers' rights", when all you are abolishing is their right to work for low pay.

I know the Labour party has a strong desire to codify the rights of workers to 20 days' annual leave and 14 weeks' maternity pay; but I'm still at a loss as to why. (Except for the obvious conclusion that they don't think they have a chance of being elected, even if the Conservatives cut holidays etc in half.)

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:44 pm

:lol: that minimum wage increase promise.

I wonder how many have fallen for that.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:33 pm

clarethomer wrote:400+ page summary.

If someone doesn't agree with a point, they get to know about it pretty quickly.

If they can't prove a point to being wrong, there will be a post relating to something else which ignores that point but claim it proves they are right.

According to the remainer's the brexiteer's must be thick for wanting to do something which has no certainty.

According to the brexiteers, the remainer's have a massive chip on their shoulder and are blinkered by accepting what they know.

Rinse and repeat..

Thank god this is going to roll on for years to come.
EU27 politician, "The year is 2192. Britain has sent a delegation to Brussels, again, asking for an extension in connection with Brexit. No one can remember what Brexit is or why, but the ceremony has become one of the EU's most famous traditions. Tourists travel from all over the world to watch the ceremony...." ;)

AndyClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:23 am

Boom !

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 36673?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:54 am

AndyClaret wrote:Boom !

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 36673?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But as Diane Abbott will claim, you can get back an 8 point lead in an election campaign.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:59 am

Big week in the Brexit game.

Macron trying to force Parliament into voting for at least something, perhaps anything.

Macron can and just might try to force us out on the 31st with no deal. Might but not likely.

Labour just dare not vote for an election.

Wednesday is going to be very interesting day , me thinks.

nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:03 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:But as Diane Abbott will claim, you can get back an 8 point lead in an election campaign.
Well based on 2017 GE she'd most certainly be correct, which would be highly unusual for her.

aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:17 am

clarethomer wrote:400+ page summary.

If someone doesn't agree with a point, they get to know about it pretty quickly.

If they can't prove a point to being wrong, there will be a post relating to something else which ignores that point but claim it proves they are right.

According to the remainer's the brexiteer's must be thick for wanting to do something which has no certainty.

According to the brexiteers, the remainer's have a massive chip on their shoulder and are blinkered by accepting what they know.

Rinse and repeat..

Thank god this is going to roll on for years to come.
CT was actually the architect behind Brexit to boost advertising revenue on this site.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:31 am

AndyClaret wrote:Boom !

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 36673?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And this was Opinium’s poll before the 2017 election:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 88676?s=21

I thought we’d reached the opinion after the result of that election that polls were, on the whole, absolute bunk.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:38 am

Swizzlestick wrote:And this was Opinium’s poll before the 2017 election:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 88676?s=21

I thought we’d reached the opinion after the result of that election that polls were, on the whole, absolute bunk.

Polls are fine when conducted properly. You're linking to one that was 6 or 7 weeks before the election.

Image

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:56 am

Just read Swinson and Blackford have written to the EU to try for an election on the 9th dec, so students are still at Uni.
Plus they want no deal off the table and without the Boris deal being linked to the election.


I will go for that!!!

Imploding Turtle
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:01 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Just read Swinson and Blackford have written to the EU to try for an election on the 9th dec, so students are still at Uni.
Plus they want no deal off the table and without the Boris deal being linked to the election.


I will go for that!!!
I don't believe the EU decides when our elections are. But who knows, maybe the Daily Mail or Express has said something recently about how the EU get to approve them and their readers have believed it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:02 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Just read Swinson and Blackford have written to the EU to try for an election on the 9th dec, so students are still at Uni.
Plus they want no deal off the table and without the Boris deal being linked to the election.

I will go for that!!!
Certainly brings the Brexit party into play.

Lowbank, are you ready for all the dirty tactics the Tories will throw at you?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:09 am

Spijed wrote:Certainly brings the Brexit party into play.

Lowbank, are you ready for all the dirty tactics the Tories will throw at you?

The next election is going to be pure filth. It'll make the 2015 election look like it was clean, and the referendum campaign like it was honest.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:11 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Big week in the Brexit game.

Macron trying to force Parliament into voting for at least something, perhaps anything.

Macron can and just might try to force us out on the 31st with no deal. Might but not likely.

Labour just dare not vote for an election.

Wednesday is going to be very interesting day , me thinks.
There's no way Macron will force the UK to quit on the 31st with no deal.

I agree Labour won't vote for an election,however that may not matter as the Lib Dems and SNP say they'll support a December poll,if the EU grant a 3 month extension.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50194685

Labour are in severe danger of attack from all sides,they won't vote to bring the government down,but equally they state they want an early GE if no deal is taken off the table,sooner or later Corbyn will have to put up or shut up,it's bonkers that an opposition is running scared of the prospect of going to the country,i've never known anything like it.

If an election is triggered through a combination of Conservative/non-Labour oppostion party votes,from day 1 of any campaign Corbyn is on the back foot,as Blackford and Swinson will rightly accuse him of neglecting his duty as the only plausible alternative PM.

This endless fence-sitting is why even with the current governments travails,of which there are many not just brexit,Labour is struggling to hit 25% in the polls,now yes people can refer to the Corbyn surge in 2017 as evidence that such a defecit can be over-turned,but there is no way the Conservatives will have as shambolic a campaign as TM did,and Corbyn's star has faded dramatically in the last 2 years.

I do also have to point out nobody can seriously believe BJ doesn't want an election despite his constant denials to the contrary.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:23 am

If we do have a GE in December then it will be (whether you like it or not) a second Brexit referendum.

Leave the EU with a deal - vote Conservative
Remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem

The other parties might as well not turn up.
Last edited by Mala591 on Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:25 am

Mala591 wrote:If we do have a GE in November then it will be (whether you like it or not) a second Brexit referendum.

Leave the EU with a deal - vote Conservative
Remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem

The other parties might as well not turn up.

I see you're getting this in now so that when the Tories have more votes than the Lib Dems you get to argue, falsely, that this proves that the UK still wants to leave.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:27 am

Mala591 wrote:If we do have a GE in November then it will be (whether you like it or not) a second Brexit referendum.

Leave the EU with a deal - vote Conservative
Remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem

The other parties might as well not turn up.
The like it or not category would abstain losing all faith in democracy, it'd be a farce.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:29 am

Mala591 wrote:If we do have a GE in November.
Now impossible.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:31 am

tiger76 wrote:There's no way Macron will force the UK to quit on the 31st with no deal.

I agree Labour won't vote for an election,however that may not matter as the Lib Dems and SNP say they'll support a December poll,if the EU grant a 3 month extension.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50194685

Labour are in severe danger of attack from all sides,they won't vote to bring the government down,but equally they state they want an early GE if no deal is taken off the table,sooner or later Corbyn will have to put up or shut up,it's bonkers that an opposition is running scared of the prospect of going to the country,i've never known anything like it.

If an election is triggered through a combination of Conservative/non-Labour oppostion party votes,from day 1 of any campaign Corbyn is on the back foot,as Blackford and Swinson will rightly accuse him of neglecting his duty as the only plausible alternative PM.

This endless fence-sitting is why even with the current governments travails,of which there are many not just brexit,Labour is struggling to hit 25% in the polls,now yes people can refer to the Corbyn surge in 2017 as evidence that such a defecit can be over-turned,but there is no way the Conservatives will have as shambolic a campaign as TM did,and Corbyn's star has faded dramatically in the last 2 years.

I do also have to point out nobody can seriously believe BJ doesn't want an election despite his constant denials to the contrary.
Government have turned down the SNP/Lib Dem plan

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:32 am

Spijed wrote:Now impossible.
My mistake. November changed to December.
This user liked this post: Spijed

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:49 am

Spijed wrote:Government have turned down the SNP/Lib Dem plan
Not yet they haven't.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:51 am

AndyClaret wrote:Not yet they haven't.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50199682" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:53 am

Old news, the plot thickens, one last push to get brexit passed, if not, a general election.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:59 am

It's nonsensical to entertain the idea that the lib dems can have any useful input towards implementing brexit when the party are ideologically opposed to brexit, no compromise or understanding can ever be brokered.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:01 pm

dsr wrote:Is the FT link the proposal that increases minimum wage from £8.21 to £10.50? I'm not sure you can really call that "deviation from EU standards" because the EU doesn't have a minimum wage. And I'm sure it doesn't really count as "reducing workers' rights", when all you are abolishing is their right to work for low pay.

I know the Labour party has a strong desire to codify the rights of workers to 20 days' annual leave and 14 weeks' maternity pay; but I'm still at a loss as to why. (Except for the obvious conclusion that they don't think they have a chance of being elected, even if the Conservatives cut holidays etc in half.)
Reducing worker rights and environmental regulations. The same party that voted against the minimum wage, and claimed it would destroy business. There is no reason for ordinary working people to vote conservative.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:04 pm

AndrewJB wrote:In five years they created more debt than every Labour government in history, while bringing in the biggest spending cuts since the 40s - savaging the lives of the poor, the disabled, the young - and selling off everything at knock down prices. They gave it all away to their mates in the City.

Never mind your bogus employment figures - in which everyone not on Jobseekers Allowance is therefore employed (or having completed one hour of work during the period of time measured!). Could there be a more dishonest way of measuring employment? And as to the quality of that employment, the Tories cut many tens of thousands of good civil service jobs (causing crime to go up), and replaced them with many tens of thousands of zero hours contract jobs, and the gig economy.
Like labour didn't boast of the "prawn cocktail offensive" as they schmoozed upto their mates in the City!

Like Labour didn't puff their chests out proclaiming their "soft touch regulation" would they make life less troublesome for their mates in the City!

Peter Mandelson even admitted he was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich"!!!

Despite all that, it caught up with them big style, didn't it!

Unemployment was higher than when they came to office. As it always does under labour

As I said, Which government left office leaving a letter admitting, "the money's all gone"?

Answer - the last labour government

Huff and puff all you like Andrew. But facts is facts.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:34 pm

Mala591 wrote:If we do have a GE in December then it will be (whether you like it or not) a second Brexit referendum.

Leave the EU with a deal - vote Conservative
Remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem

The other parties might as well not turn up.
Which brings about the rather 'suprising' possibility that Burnley might elect a Conservative MP for the first time since Gerald Arbuthnot was elected in 1910.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:47 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Like labour didn't boast of the "prawn cocktail offensive" as they schmoozed upto their mates in the City!

Like Labour didn't puff their chests out proclaiming their "soft touch regulation" would they make life less troublesome for their mates in the City!

Peter Mandelson even admitted he was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich"!!!

Despite all that, it caught up with them big style, didn't it!

Unemployment was higher than when they came to office. As it always does under labour

As I said, Which government left office leaving a letter admitting, "the money's all gone"?

Answer - the last labour government

Huff and puff all you like Andrew. But facts is facts.
Mandelson’s quote ended with “as long as they pay their taxes”

You’ll only get agreement from me about Labour’s mistake in cosying up to the rich, and not regulating the financial markets sufficiently. If we agree these are problems then we’ll agree the solution is definitely not the Tory Party - who backed Labour on the Iraq War, and demanded lighter regulation.

Labour weathered two years of a massive worldwide economic meltdown. In the next five years the Tory government borrowed more than every Labour government put together. When your manifesto says your core aim is to balance the books, that is epic failure.

There is no reason for any ordinary person to vote for the Tory Party.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:56 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Just read Swinson and Blackford have written to the EU to try for an election on the 9th dec, so students are still at Uni.
Plus they want no deal off the table and without the Boris deal being linked to the election.


I will go for that!!!
No chance that Tory MPS will go for this, especially as Libs and SNP also want 16 and 17 year olds on the electoral roll.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:58 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:No chance that Tory MPS will go for this, especially as Libs and SNP also want 16 and 17 year olds on the electoral roll.
There's not enough time to put 16/17 year olds on the electoral roll, Lib Dems have already conceded this.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:59 pm

Mala591 wrote:If we do have a GE in December then it will be (whether you like it or not) a second Brexit referendum.

Leave the EU with a deal - vote Conservative
Remain in the EU - vote Lib Dem

The other parties might as well not turn up.
This is why a general election is a nonsensical way of trying to resolve this issue.

As I've said previously, it's a cowardly way of trying to resolve this stinking mess, and it will fail. The only way to properly poll the electorate on this massive issue is to ask them directly, in a referendum.

No ambiguity, no party loyalty, no wasted votes in safe seats, no votes being claimed by one side (leave or remain) when in fact people might be voting on other issues besides Brexit.

There will have to be a referendum sooner or later. It's the only way this gets resolved.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:03 pm

Spijed wrote:Certainly brings the Brexit party into play.

Lowbank, are you ready for all the dirty tactics the Tories will throw at you?

They will not be throwing anything at me personally , but I think people are correct. It’s likely to be pretty nasty stuff.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:08 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:This is why a general election is a nonsensical way of trying to resolve this issue.

As I've said previously, it's a cowardly way of trying to resolve this stinking mess, and it will fail. The only way to properly poll the electorate on this massive issue is to ask them directly, in a referendum.

No ambiguity, no party loyalty, no wasted votes in safe seats, no votes being claimed by one side (leave or remain) when in fact people might be voting on other issues besides Brexit.

There will have to be a referendum sooner or later. It's the only way this gets resolved.
There aren't the numbers for a losers vote, even the Lib Dems concede this, it would need Government behind it as well as it's classed as a money bill.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:09 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:This is why a general election is a nonsensical way of trying to resolve this issue.

As I've said previously, it's a cowardly way of trying to resolve this stinking mess, and it will fail. The only way to properly poll the electorate on this massive issue is to ask them directly, in a referendum.

No ambiguity, no party loyalty, no wasted votes in safe seats, no votes being claimed by one side (leave or remain) when in fact people might be voting on other issues besides Brexit.

There will have to be a referendum sooner or later. It's the only way this gets resolved.
You wouldn't have a problem then potentially disrespecting thousands maybe millions of dead people (maybe war veterans) whose votes haven't been honoured? Appears a brazen approach & completely dismissive regarding not just dead people also people still alive.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:18 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:This is why a general election is a nonsensical way of trying to resolve this issue.

As I've said previously, it's a cowardly way of trying to resolve this stinking mess, and it will fail. The only way to properly poll the electorate on this massive issue is to ask them directly, in a referendum.

No ambiguity, no party loyalty, no wasted votes in safe seats, no votes being claimed by one side (leave or remain) when in fact people might be voting on other issues besides Brexit.

There will have to be a referendum sooner or later. It's the only way this gets resolved.
A 2nd referendum won't end the argument,however it MAY resolve the current impasse.

A GE shouldn't be fought on a single issue,but sooner or later there will have to be one.

I'm curious though how a 2nd referendum comes about without a GE,as far as i understand it,a referendum comes under the finance bill legislation,and can therefore only be OK'ED by the government,clearly there is no intention of this adminstration even considering another referendum.

So for the 'People's Vote' campaigners they would need a new government before their idea of a confirmatory vote can be enacted.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:36 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You wouldn't have a problem then potentially disrespecting thousands maybe millions of dead people (maybe war veterans) whose votes haven't been honoured? Appears a brazen approach & completely dismissive regarding not just dead people also people still alive.
Very strange comment.

Are you suggesting that the views and opinions of dead people are more important and relevant than those of living people?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:41 pm

tiger76 wrote:A 2nd referendum won't end the argument,however it MAY resolve the current impasse.

A GE shouldn't be fought on a single issue,but sooner or later there will have to be one.

I'm curious though how a 2nd referendum comes about without a GE,as far as i understand it,a referendum comes under the finance bill legislation,and can therefore only be OK'ED by the government,clearly there is no intention of this adminstration even considering another referendum.

So for the 'People's Vote' campaigners they would need a new government before their idea of a confirmatory vote can be enacted.
I agree, there needs to be an election. But this issue needs sorting out first. It's far too big to resolve in an election.

If the numbers were there in Parliament, they could pass legislation like they have done for the previous extension requests. But as Andy correctly points out, the numbers aren't there, yet.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:41 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Very strange comment.

Are you suggesting that the views and opinions of dead people are more important and relevant than those of living people?
No not at all, I don't subscribe to the notion that just because people have died that somehow the votes become invalid. From 2016 the votes should be valid regardless of people dying in between now & then, the votes should be equal dead or alive.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:No not at all, I don't subscribe to the notion that just because people have died that somehow the votes become invalid. From 2016 the votes should be valid regardless of people dying in between now & then, the votes should be equal dead or alive.
Are dead people's votes from the 2010 election still valid?

Are you trolling? Genuine question.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:47 pm

tiger76 wrote:A 2nd referendum won't end the argument,however it MAY resolve the current impasse.

A GE shouldn't be fought on a single issue,but sooner or later there will have to be one.

I'm curious though how a 2nd referendum comes about without a GE,as far as i understand it,a referendum comes under the finance bill legislation,and can therefore only be OK'ED by the government,clearly there is no intention of this adminstration even considering another referendum.

So for the 'People's Vote' campaigners they would need a new government before their idea of a confirmatory vote can be enacted.
A second Referendum if it was won 52/48 for remain would not resolve the current impasse.

It would lead to rise in support for the Brexit Party, and probably some more extreme unsavoury parties.

As time went by as the EU strengthened its grip on the UK, I suggest more people would realise we would have been better off out in 2019.

Still this is going to be a big week. Looking forward to it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:50 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Are dead people's votes from the 2010 election still valid?

Are you trolling? Genuine question.
Recap - the point of issue was the argument for a 2nd referendum.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:53 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Recap - the point of issue was the argument for a 2nd referendum.
Yes, which would give us an accurate and up-to-date poll of where we are as a country on this issue. The vote of 2016 would be irrelevant. That mandate will either be changed or re-enforced by the latest poll, depending on the result.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:55 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Yes, which would give us an accurate and up-to-date poll of where we are as a country on this issue. The vote of 2016 would be irrelevant. That mandate will either be changed or re-enforced by the latest poll, depending on the result.
I presume you don't execute wills for living, god perish the thought!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:55 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Yes, which would give us an accurate and up-to-date poll of where we are as a country on this issue. The vote of 2016 would be irrelevant. That mandate will either be changed or re-enforced by the latest poll, depending on the result.

Yep I see, remain only have to win one referendum.

Leave has to win at least 3, 4, 5, how many do you suggest???

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:57 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I presume you don't execute wills for living, god perish the thought!
So hang on, we shouldn't ask the public for their view on this issue because it might upset the dead people who wanted to leave the EU?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:59 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:So hang on, we shouldn't ask the public for their view on this issue because it might upset the dead people who wanted to leave the EU?
Well we can't ask the dead that's for sure, stuff what their wanted in 2016.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:01 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:I agree, there needs to be an election. But this issue needs sorting out first. It's far too big to resolve in an election.

If the numbers were there in Parliament, they could pass legislation like they have done for the previous extension requests. But as Andy correctly points out, the numbers aren't there, yet.
It won't please lots of people,and it wouldn't necessarily please me,however the grown-up solution,is for the HOC to properly assess the WA.make any amendments as they see fit,and perhaps next spring put the final deal up against remain,it's not an ideal outcome and will rile many leave voters,but the alternatives are worse,i.e no deal or years of parliamentary wrangling,and other important issues the NHS,climate change,education.transport just being sidelined,brexit has dominated the political discourse for over 3 years and we're still no further down the track.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:05 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Yep I see, remain only have to win one referendum.

Leave has to win at least 3, 4, 5, how many do you suggest???
Remain is the status quo. It's very easy to implement. In fact, we don't have to do anything at all. Because we're already there.

Leave is far more complicated and as a result, a blank 'leave' will not suffice, as we've found out over the last 3+ years. So in reality, a leave vote has to be on something real and concrete (a deal), which can be offered in a referendum.

I believe Jacob Rees-Mogg suggested this a good few years ago. There's a vote to leave in principle, and then a confirmatory vote once the details are there for all to see.

But I guess details are not a friend of the Brexit project.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:18 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Yes, which would give us an accurate and up-to-date poll of where we are as a country on this issue. The vote of 2016 would be irrelevant. That mandate will either be changed or re-enforced by the latest poll, depending on the result.
What about all those that voted to join Europe in 1975 that have since died you heartless *******!

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