Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Jakubclaret]

What about all those that voted to join Europe in 1975 that have since died you heartless *******!

Everybody on this forum well not everybody but a sizeable number perhaps, who've got a mum/dad & grandad & grandma, daughters & sons who could have voted leave & since died, I know I have,. It should be testament to the people that lived pre 1975 especially leave voters, it's the only way to compare change, let's not throw away the legacy the gift they've left for us, after all there are the 1s who knew for certain.

[Mala591]

This is why a general election is a nonsensical way of trying to resolve this issue.

As I've said previously, it's a cowardly way of trying to resolve this stinking mess, and it will fail. The only way to properly poll the electorate on this massive issue is to ask them directly, in a referendum.

No ambiguity, no party loyalty, no wasted votes in safe seats, no votes being claimed by one side (leave or remain) when in fact people might be voting on other issues besides Brexit.

There will have to be a referendum sooner or later. It's the only way this gets resolved.

The referendum question would need to be:

'You have already voted to leave the EU. Now you must decide how we leave.'

1. Theresa May's deal with a customs union (soft Brexit)
2. Boris Johnson's deal without a customs union (medium Brexit)
3. No-deal exit (hard Brexit)

[Lowbankclaret]

Remain is the status quo. It's very easy to implement. In fact, we don't have to do anything at all. Because we're already there.

Leave is far more complicated and as a result, a blank 'leave' will not suffice, as we've found out over the last 3+ years. So in reality, a leave vote has to be on something real and concrete (a deal), which can be offered in a referendum.

I believe Jacob Rees-Mogg suggested this a good few years ago. There's a vote to leave in principle, and then a confirmatory vote once the details are there for all to see.

But I guess details are not a friend of the Brexit project.

No it’s absolutely not the status quo. I really wish people would actually understand what the plan is for the EU.

The one thing it’s absolutely not is to remain the same as it is today. You are minding yourself and everyone else every time you say it.

The EU project has never ever stopped still, if history shows you anything, it shows you that.

[Imploding Turtle]

how the **** is remain not the status quo?

[martin_p]

how the **** is remain not the status quo?

If you think Status Quo means Francis Rossi and Rick Parfitt.

[nil_desperandum]

No it’s absolutely not the status quo. I really wish people would actually understand what the plan is for the EU.

But that's not the question or relevant.
Remain today means that it's the status quo.
If there are proposed changes that we like in the future then we can support them.
If there are proposed changes in the future that we don't agree with, then we vote against them and if it comes to we it use our veto.
And if changes are proposed and we are out-voted and our veto is somehow circumvented or ignored then we still have the option to leave.
Remain means stay as we are for the moment and whatever happens in the future - it remains in our hands.
The most important point is that we currently have a preferential deal, and therefore the ability to be a major influence on the future direction. Once we leave, we lose our freedom of movement, our ability to influence the future direction, our rebate and our veto. So if we do conclude after a while that leaving was a bit of an aberration then the EU that we may consider returning to will indeed be a very different one. (i.e. they won't restore the benefits we currently enjoy)

[Imploding Turtle]

It's literally called "Remain".

[tiger76]

Scandalous treatment whatever you think about Gina Miller.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50202060

[Imploding Turtle]

Scandalous treatment whatever you think about Gina Miller.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50202060

Nazis are so dumb.

[Lowbankclaret]

But that's not the question or relevant.
Remain today means that it's the status quo.
If there are proposed changes that we like in the future then we can support them.
If there are proposed changes in the future that we don't agree with, then we vote against them and if it comes to we it use our veto.
And if changes are proposed and we are out-voted and our veto is somehow circumvented or ignored then we still have the option to leave.
Remain means stay as we are for the moment and whatever happens in the future - it remains in our hands.
The most important point is that we currently have a preferential deal, and therefore the ability to be a major influence on the future direction. Once we leave, we lose our freedom of movement, our ability to influence the future direction, our rebate and our veto. So if we do conclude after a while that leaving was a bit of an aberration then the EU that we may consider returning to will indeed be a very different one. (i.e. they won't restore the benefits we currently enjoy)

That famous veto, the EU have changed the rules to make almost useless. Wish I could find the article which lists the times we have tried to use it and ALWAYS lost.

[Lowbankclaret]

But that's not the question or relevant.
Remain today means that it's the status quo.
If there are proposed changes that we like in the future then we can support them.
If there are proposed changes in the future that we don't agree with, then we vote against them and if it comes to we it use our veto.
And if changes are proposed and we are out-voted and our veto is somehow circumvented or ignored then we still have the option to leave.
Remain means stay as we are for the moment and whatever happens in the future - it remains in our hands.
The most important point is that we currently have a preferential deal, and therefore the ability to be a major influence on the future direction. Once we leave, we lose our freedom of movement, our ability to influence the future direction, our rebate and our veto. So if we do conclude after a while that leaving was a bit of an aberration then the EU that we may consider returning to will indeed be a very different one. (i.e. they won't restore the benefits we currently enjoy)

How many votes to leave have we had??

Not googled it but once every 30 years or something.

[aggi]

You wouldn't have a problem then potentially disrespecting thousands maybe millions of dead people (maybe war veterans) whose votes haven't been honoured? Appears a brazen approach & completely dismissive regarding not just dead people also people still alive.

It's always bizarre when people (normally Brexit voters judging by this thread) invoke war veterans.

Even more bizarre given that the majority (I'm assuming WWII giving the timing) voted to remain so leaving wouldn't be honouring their vote.

[Lowbankclaret]

Scandalous treatment whatever you think about Gina Miller.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50202060

That’s just simply NOT ACCEPTABLE.

[Imploding Turtle]

That famous veto, the EU have changed the rules to make almost useless. Wish I could find the article which lists the times we have tried to use it and ALWAYS lost.

You people need to make your mind up. Do we have a veto or not?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... udget-veto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

That famous veto, the EU have changed the rules to make almost useless. Wish I could find the article which lists the times we have tried to use it and ALWAYS lost.

I wish you could find it too because I'm pretty sure it's another one of those things you read on the internet and just believed because it's anti-EU.

That's part of the reason no one takes your prophesies of doom about the EU seriously. You've shown multiple times that you're willing to believe pretty much anything that's anti-EU without any critical thought.

[Lowbankclaret]

You people need to make your mind up. Do we have a veto or not?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... udget-veto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do some research, your boring me now.

[Imploding Turtle]

Do some research, your boring me now.

Lol. You can't even back up a claim you've just made, and i proved that as recently as this month a Brextremist newspaper was saying we have a veto.

Stop posting bullshit lies.

[Jakubclaret]

It's always bizarre when people (normally Brexit voters judging by this thread) invoke war veterans.

Even more bizarre given that the majority (I'm assuming WWII giving the timing) voted to remain so leaving wouldn't be honouring their vote.

It's something neither of us can be sure about, it's a well known fact that the elderly voted leave inducing a likely assumption a larger percentage of war veterans would have opted leave also, a similar not over exaggerated comparison in footballing analogy akin to Barcelona 1st team vs Darlington for representational purposes.

[RingoMcCartney]

Mandelson’s quote ended with “as long as they pay their taxes”

You’ll only get agreement from me about Labour’s mistake in cosying up to the rich, and not regulating the financial markets sufficiently. If we agree these are problems then we’ll agree the solution is definitely not the Tory Party - who backed Labour on the Iraq War, and demanded lighter regulation.

Labour weathered two years of a massive worldwide economic meltdown. In the next five years the Tory government borrowed more than every Labour government put together. When your manifesto says your core aim is to balance the books, that is epic failure.

There is no reason for any ordinary person to vote for the Tory Party.

The only reason for ordinary people to vote labour , the facts and figures show, would be if they like the idea
of an increased chance of unemployment!

[TheFamilyCat]

Lol. You can't even back up a claim you've just made, and i proved that as recently as this month a Brextremist newspaper was saying we have a veto.

Stop posting bullshit lies.

He'll be posting that bullshit through the letter boxes of Burnley in the name of The Brexit Party soon.

[TheFamilyCat]

It's something neither of us can be sure about, it's a well known fact that the elderly voted leave inducing a likely assumption a larger percentage of war veterans would have opted leave also, a similar not over exaggerated comparison in footballing analogy akin to Barcelona 1st team vs Darlington for representational purposes.

I'm pretty sure I read that although the 60+ vote was mainly leave, the very oldest (i.e. those old enough to have lived through or served in WW2) voted predominantly remain.

It was in an article which i think was posted on here.

[nil_desperandum]

It's something neither of us can be sure about, it's a well known fact that the elderly voted leave inducing a likely assumption a larger percentage of war veterans ......

I keep asking. Which war are we talking about?, because so far as WW2 is concerned there are very few veterans left, and quite a lot of evidence that those who are still alive and lived through the war are less anti-EU than those a decade younger than them.

[nil_desperandum]

I'm pretty sure I read that although the 60+ vote was mainly leave, the very oldest (i.e. those old enough to have lived through or served in WW2) voted predominantly remain.

It was in an article which i think was posted on here.

Here's one, (though not necessarily the one you refer to as there are several).

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/ ... llennials/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Imploding Turtle]

I'm pretty sure I read that although the 60+ vote was mainly leave, the very oldest (i.e. those old enough to have lived through or served in WW2) voted predominantly remain.

It was in an article which i think was posted on here.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/ ... llennials/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jakubclaret]

I keep asking. Which war are we talking about?, because so far as WW2 is concerned there are very few veterans left, and quite a lot of evidence that those who are still alive and lived through the war are less anti-EU than those a decade younger than them.

Based on DOB 1920 or thereabouts, WW2, remember 2016 is the starting point, are you trying to pretend all the people who voted leave all the lifespans had expired, I acknowledge it's a small number but a number nevertheless.

[TheFamilyCat]

Here's one, (though not necessarily the one you refer to as there are several).

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/ ... llennials/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It wasn't that one but glad that the evidence is there and I didn't imagine it!

[nil_desperandum]

Based on DOB 1920 or thereabouts, WW2, remember 2016 is the starting point, are you trying to pretend all the people who voted leave all the lifespans had expired, I acknowledge it's a small number but a number nevertheless.

No one's arguing with that.
It's a very small number in percentage terms, and as has been pointed out, the evidence is that this particular demographic, (along with millenials) were amongst those most likely to vote remain.
But both those points not withstanding, why do you continue to imply that the vote of 95 year old carries more weight than yours or mine?

[Jakubclaret]

No one's arguing with that.
It's a very small number in percentage terms, and as has been pointed out, the evidence is that this particular demographic, (along with millenials) were amongst those most likely to vote remain.
But both those points not withstanding, why do you continue to imply that the vote of 95 year old carries more weight than yours or mine?

Based on the well known fact that a large percentage of the elderly voted leave, & as a polite reminder leave was the deciding vote, so to go against that will be disrespecting a small number of WW2 veterans not all but the majority split.

[aggi]

It's something neither of us can be sure about, it's a well known fact that the elderly voted leave inducing a likely assumption a larger percentage of war veterans would have opted leave also, a similar not over exaggerated comparison in footballing analogy akin to Barcelona 1st team vs Darlington for representational purposes.

Someone's already posted the link above. We can't know for certain but it does certainly appear that those who lived through the war aren't as eager for Brexit.

Obviously that doesn't stop many people ignoring that fact and invoking the blitz spirit, claiming that they fought the war to get out of this kind of thing, we (not actually we) survived the war so we can survive this, etc

[Lowbankclaret]

Lol. You can't even back up a claim you've just made, and i proved that as recently as this month a Brextremist newspaper was saying we have a veto.

Stop posting bullshit lies.

Even if I did find the article or proof, your head would be so far in the ground you would take no notice.

There is a reason I have ignored your posts.

I am going to stop opening them as it’s a waste of my energy.

[Jakubclaret]

Someone's already posted the link above. We can't know for certain but it does certainly appear that those who lived through the war aren't as eager for Brexit.

Obviously that doesn't stop many people ignoring that fact and invoking the blitz spirit, claiming that they fought the war to get out of this kind of thing, we (not actually we) survived the war so we can survive this, etc

If you or ND can disprove we won't be disrespecting any WW2 surviving or dead veterans who voted leave, crack on & fair play, the onus isn't on me.

[Imploding Turtle]

Even if I did find the article or proof, your head would be so far in the ground you would take no notice.

There is a reason I have ignored your posts.

I am going to stop opening them as it’s a waste of my energy.

lol. You've set me as a "foe"? What a snowflake.

I know you read this.

[Lowbankclaret]

I wish you could find it too because I'm pretty sure it's another one of those things you read on the internet and just believed because it's anti-EU.

That's part of the reason no one takes your prophesies of doom about the EU seriously. You've shown multiple times that you're willing to believe pretty much anything that's anti-EU without any critical thought.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... influence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not once have we voted against and prevented a law.

The veto is bullshit.

[martin_p]

It's something neither of us can be sure about, it's a well known fact that the elderly voted leave inducing a likely assumption a larger percentage of war veterans would have opted leave also, a similar not over exaggerated comparison in footballing analogy akin to Barcelona 1st team vs Darlington for representational purposes.

In the ‘75 referendum it was the over 50s that had the biggest percentage voting to join, that’s your war generation.

[martin_p]

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... influence/

Not once have we voted against and prevented a law.

The veto is bullshit.

The veto doesn’t apply to every minor regulation and law, it’s just for the big stuff like EU budget and foreign policy. Voting no isn’t the same as a veto.

[Imploding Turtle]

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... influence/

Not once have we voted against and prevented a law.

The veto is bullshit.

Vote and veto might be anagrams of one another but they mean very different things.

[TheFamilyCat]

If you or ND can disprove we won't be disrespecting any WW2 surviving or dead veterans who voted leave, crack on & fair play, the onus isn't on me.

Is this where we are now? Three years of failing to provide a single good economic reason for Brexit and now all you have is "we've got to leave so we don't disrespect war veterans who voted leave".

[CrosspoolClarets]

Is this where we are now? Three years of failing to provide a single good economic reason for Brexit and now all you have is "we've got to leave so we don't disrespect war veterans who voted leave".

Good evening.

This is another one of those lines trotted out by Remainers on probably 100 posts of this huge thread.

It has been answered just as many times, if not more.

One example - it has (after a lot of effort by some of us) been accepted by some of the arch Remainers on here that wages of, say, agricultural workers will have been depressed by huge inwards EU migration in that sector. Maybe or maybe not wages overall, but in some sectors.

Thus those long standing citizens of Boston and elsewhere can legitimately say there is a good economic reason for them to vote leave. We can disagree, and have our own reasons, but they are entitled to do so.

My suggestion - let us all respect the other’s votes and accept we have to implement what was decided upon without delaying long enough for them all to die off.

[Lowbankclaret]

Vote and veto might be anagrams of one another but they mean very different things.

So provide proof it has worked once???

[Lowbankclaret]

The veto doesn’t apply to every minor regulation and law, it’s just for the big stuff like EU budget and foreign policy. Voting no isn’t the same as a veto.

So provide proof it has worked once???

[Imploding Turtle]

So provide proof it has worked once???

Easy

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/ ... -eu-treaty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... influence/

Not once have we voted against and prevented a law.

The veto is bullshit.

Ah, it's one of those where you've just fundamentally misunderstood how the EU and the UK works.

I'm not sure whether you actually thought that we had a veto on every single vote, in which case it's probably safe to ignore anything you post about Brexit due to your huge lack of knowledge, or were just scrabbling for anything that might back you up.

It's not even true that we've not voted against and prevented a law, we've done that many times. Your link just shows the times we didn't.

For someone who claims to do a lot of research there are so many instances of you being factually incorrect. I only hope that if you're going to be knocking on doors, for any party, you try and get your facts straight first.

[Lowbankclaret]

Ah, it's one of those where you've just fundamentally misunderstood how the EU and the UK works.

I'm not sure whether you actually thought that we had a veto on every single vote, in which case it's probably safe to ignore anything you post about Brexit due to your huge lack of knowledge, or were just scrabbling for anything that might back you up.

It's not even true that we've not voted against and prevented a law, we've done that many times. Your link just shows the times we didn't.

For someone who claims to do a lot of research there are so many instances of you being factually incorrect. I only hope that if you're going to be knocking on doors, for any party, you try and get your facts straight first.

So provide a link to your facts.

Not one of you has as yet.

Wonder why??

[Lowbankclaret]

All you remainers.WHERES YOUR PROOF THE 227 billion budget for the EU army is fake news.

[Jakubclaret]

Is this where we are now? Three years of failing to provide a single good economic reason for Brexit and now all you have is "we've got to leave so we don't disrespect war veterans who voted leave".

I’m just waiting for aggi or nil desperandum to disprove my point regarding disrespecting war veterans, I’m convinced that would be the case in the event of overturning the referendum result, no point in further engagement until this happens. It’s not “where we are now” it’s where we going if some of us continue to not acknowledge the truth & don’t take responsibility. All the good economic reasons have been posted before by other posters regarding the positives towards brexit, it’s fair to argue you are not convinced by all means but the reasons have been given, it’s problematic for you in agreeing.

[Spijed]

@AlbertoNardelli

EU27 ambassadors meet tomorrow morning at 10am to discuss extension. The latest draft proposes an extension to 31 January 2020, with the possibility of exiting earlier should the agreement be ratified early

[nil_desperandum]

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-be ... influence/

Not once have we voted against and prevented a law.

The veto is bullshit.

Nowhere in that link does it say that. What it does say however, is:

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.
In sum, it is correct that UK government ministers have sometimes been outvoted over EU laws, and the UK government has clearly voted ‘No’ on some issues that some sections of the British population think are important.

In terms of the total volume of laws passed, the proportion of times the UK government has been on the “losing side” is small at about 2% since 1999

.
And additionally - of course - we still have our veto in all major areas, (hence we aren't in the Euro or Schengen for example).

[nil_desperandum]

I’m just waiting for aggi or nil desperandum to disprove my point regarding disrespecting war veterans, .........

But who's showing disrespect for them?
You still haven't explained why you believe that the vote of a war veteran carries more weight than mine, yours or aggis.
Nor have you attempted to disprove surveys / evidence that suggest that WW2 veterans voted in more substantial numbers for remain than leave.
Do the votes of WW2 veterans who voted leave count for more than those who voted remain?
Don't all WW2 veterans deserve equal respect irrespective of the way they cast their vote?

[Lowbankclaret]

Nowhere in that link does it say that. What it does say however, is:
.
And additionally - of course - we still have our veto in all major areas, (hence we aren't in the Euro or Schengen for example).

I asked all remainers to provide proof we successfully used out veto once.


Silence is golden.

[aggi]

So provide a link to your facts.

Not one of you has as yet.

Wonder why??

Facts about what?

You said the UK veto is worthless but then posted a link suggesting you didn't actually know what it was. Do you want a link to how the UK, EU and voting works?