Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Jakubclaret]

So you’d agree that suppliers shouldn’t be making massive profits on that basis then? In fact ideally the staff should work for the NHS not a third party and the NHS should own the buildings, etc.

They've been outsourcing for years using specialised agencies for health care professionals due to the flexibility hrs wise covering sickness, hols ect, the problem being it's damaging morale within the NHS staff on the actual payroll, it's often the case the agency staff command a higher rate of pay.

[martin_p]

Yes. Gordon Brown's public-private partnership deals were outrageous, and they haven't been fully ditched. And locums etc. should be for emergencies, not routine.

Mark this date! Something, not football related, we agree on.

[Lancasterclaret]

Mark this date! Something, not football related, we agree on.

The NHS remaining the NHS is something the vast majority agree on.

Which is why its such a good political pawn (see 2016 referendum) and why the Conservatives iffy record on it might come back to haunt them if the GE happens and the opposition manage to get it away from just about Brexit.

[Jakubclaret]

The NHS remaining the NHS is something the vast majority agree on.

Which is why its such a good political pawn (see 2016 referendum) and why the Conservatives iffy record on it might come back to haunt them if the GE happens and the opposition manage to get it away from just about Brexit.

I know it's not officially privatisation, if you become too reliant on outsourcing without recruiting & training within, you might as well be privatised, all but in name, I've heard some of operations go bupa way but not fast tracked just referrals.

[Lancasterclaret]

I know it's not officially privatisation, if you become too reliant on outsourcing without recruiting & training within, you might as well be privatised, all but in name, I've heard some of operations go bupa way but not fast tracked just referrals.

I have no problem with outsourcing, as long as it involves actual cost savings and the treatment remains free.

[Lancasterclaret]

Sigh

And talking of how we are wasting money.....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-meltdown" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheFamilyCat]

Sigh

And talking of how we are wasting money.....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-meltdown" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blue passports, a new 50p, a few folk in Boston.... the case for Brexit is really ramping up.

[aggi]

This is a subject I know a lot about given that I advise various governments on drug expenditure.

I haven’t seen the programme and will try to watch it at some point when I get time. But it has long been the case that US drugs are facing losing their patents and they are lobbying for countries to extend them rather than making them vulnerable to cheaper generic alternatives or biosimilars.

The US also has the fact that they spend a fortune developing these drugs to save all our lives and then the US consumer pays far more (either directly or through taxes like the NHS) than other countries. The UK spends less than France or Germany due to the power of the NHS.

So, these talks are “business as usual”. Not some sudden shift to privatisation. The US tries to get countries to pay more, and, in a sense, though there are arguments both ways, they have a point.

On this topic, one of the clauses in the new North America Free Trade Agreement extended the copyright period for certain drugs in Mexico and Canada. It was a sticking point for quite a while but the US weren't willing to budge. I believe we also have shorter copyright periods on this drugs so it is likely something that would form a part of any US-UK FTA.

It's an indicator of the kind of thing that gets tied up in these free trade agreements and why they are so difficult to agree. Trade agreements aren't just about selling things to each other, there is a whole raft of other stuff involved (the EU/Canada deal has various requirements around employee rights and environmental standards for instance) and that can be where the difficulty lies, particularly if you're trying to sign multiple free trade agreements with territories with different standards.

[Lancasterclaret]

Election is on.

All parties backing it apparently

[martin_p]

Election is on.

All parties backing it apparently

Once it was clear the single line motion probably had enough support to get through Labour had very little option but to back it. It takes away the ‘scared of an election’ narrative that no doubt would have been trotted out.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Will Corbyn retire once he loses the election ?

[Lancasterclaret]

Once it was clear the single line motion probably had enough support to get through Labour had very little option but to back it. It takes away the ‘scared of an election’ narrative that no doubt would have been trotted out.

Whatever your feelings on Brexit, a GE does offer the chance for any possible outcome.

Lets see how its plays out.

[martin_p]

Of course if a bit of ice or snow means that the Tory key demographic decide they don’t want to leave the house then this could be a spectacular own goal by Johnson.

[Lancasterclaret]

Will Corbyn retire once he loses the election ?

Not even the most committed Corbynista could possibly argue in his favour if he loses this one.

But its Corbynistas, so who knows?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Not even the most committed Corbynista could possibly argue in his favour if he loses this one.

But its Corbynistas, so who knows?

I am 100% certain they would still back him

[martin_p]

Will Corbyn retire once he loses the election ?

John McDonnell has implied it’s the end of the road for him and Corbyn if they lose a second election.

[Lancasterclaret]

I am 100% certain they would still back him

I think they would be in a minority.

There are plenty of other eligible Corbynistas out there who can do an equally useless job.

[claretonthecoast1882]

John McDonnell has implied it’s the end of the road for him and Corbyn if they lose a second election.

If they rid the party of a few more of this ilk they may just become electable

[Lancasterclaret]

Made my chuckle!

EICeqOMW4AAeBLF.jpg (800.27 KiB) Viewed 1261 times

[Lancasterclaret]

If they rid the party of a few more of this ilk they may just become electable

Try telling that to the ones who run it now

[AndyClaret]

Of course if a bit of ice or snow means that the Tory key demographic decide they don’t want to leave the house then this could be a spectacular own goal by Johnson.

A lot of old people have postal votes

[martin_p]

A lot of old people have postal votes

But more don’t.

[Lancasterclaret]

Crikey Andy, you lot are normally dead against postal voting.

[dermotdermot]

If they rid the party of a few more of this ilk they may just become electable

No chance. He will lose just so many seats that it will take Labour about twenty years to recover. Even so, it will nice to see the end of the detestable scumbag.

[aggi]

David Allen Green's twitter with a few choice highlights of we're definitely leaving by 31st October is entertaining. I particularly liked this one:

Capture.JPG (37.53 KiB) Viewed 1182 times

[AndyClaret]

But more don’t.

They do.

[AndyClaret]

Heidi Allen stepping down, rats deserting a sinking ship. Gymah jumps ship to stand in Kensington, a labour seat.

[Spijed]

Heidi Allen stepping down, rats deserting a sinking ship. Gymah jumps ship to stand in Kensington, a labour seat.

Likewise Boris Johnson who won't be contesting his own seat, due to him almost certainly losing it at the GE.

[Lancasterclaret]

Heidi Allen stepping down, rats deserting a sinking ship. Gymah jumps ship to stand in Kensington, a labour seat.

Boo, one less fitty MP

[Guller Bull]

Ok, so let’s assume you’re a Brexit Party supporter. What ‘right things’ do the Brexit Party intend to do other than take us out of the EU (in your opinion)?

Mmmm - bizarre assumption. Absolutely no interest in the Brexit Party or any other party. I voted for Brexit but wasn't really that bothered either way. I don't like distance governance. Detest Westminster and likewise feel that Brussels over complicates things. Would prefer countries to be independent wherever possible.

[AndyClaret]

Likewise Boris Johnson who won't be contesting his own seat, due to him almost certainly losing it at the GE.

Is that a fact or rumour ?

[Lancasterclaret]

Is that a fact or rumour ?

I can't see him risking it

There is a mega safe Tory seat in east yorkshire available.

[Spijed]

Is that a fact or rumour ?

At the moment it's only rumour, but he has just a 5000 majority.

Much speculation that the Lib Dems will throw the kitchen sink at it if he does stand there.

Sevenoaks has been touted as a safe seat for him.

Would be interesting to see what excuse he comes up with if he does move.

[Guller Bull]

Right, so I'll put you down as a Brexit Party supporter.

If you think Farage isn't established elite and isn't as bad, then there is nothing I can say to you that will change your mind.

Another jumping to assumptions - this is what politics is doing to you. You try to make things fit into boxes that you can either like or dislike.

I am not a voter of any party and until politics change to be more cooperative and for the people then I never will be. Try taking the blinkers off and realise that our present political modus operandi is broken.

We can make a difference but the first clear pointer to change is a refusal to vote for the absolute **** shower of all parties that we have at present.
Until they can act like peoples representatives and work cooperatively then we will not make progress.

I know your response will be "ah but if I dont vote for Labour/Conservative/Brexit/Green or Auntie Mary's Tea Party then I will let the others in"

OK but then you carry on perpetuating the myth that it is going to work in the future. Its not its going to get worse, build increasing division and hatred collapse and need to be rebuilt - do it now by not voting and save us all the heartache.

[Lancasterclaret]

Another jumping to assumptions - this is what politics is doing to you. You try to make things fit into boxes that you can either like or dislike.

I am not a voter of any party and until politics change to be more cooperative and for the people then I never will be. Try taking the blinkers off and realise that our present political modus operandi is broken.

We can make a difference but the first clear pointer to change is a refusal to vote for the absolute **** shower of all parties that we have at present.
Until they can act like peoples representatives and work cooperatively then we will not make progress.

I know your response will be "ah but if I dont vote for Labour/Conservative/Brexit/Green or Auntie Mary's Tea Party then I will let the others in"

OK but then you carry on perpetuating the myth that it is going to work in the future. Its not its going to get worse, build increasing division and hatred collapse and need to be rebuilt - do it now by not voting and save us all the heartache.

Not at all

its just on here, the ones who won't vote for one of the usual three tend to end up being massive Brexit Party supporters.

If you are not, then good on you and I hope you get what you want.

[RingoMcCartney]

Another jumping to assumptions - this is what politics is doing to you. You try to make things fit into boxes that you can either like or dislike.

I am not a voter of any party and until politics change to be more cooperative and for the people then I never will be. Try taking the blinkers off and realise that our present political modus operandi is broken.

We can make a difference but the first clear pointer to change is a refusal to vote for the absolute **** shower of all parties that we have at present.
Until they can act like peoples representatives and work cooperatively then we will not make progress.

I know your response will be "ah but if I dont vote for Labour/Conservative/Brexit/Green or Auntie Mary's Tea Party then I will let the others in"

OK but then you carry on perpetuating the myth that it is going to work in the future. Its not its going to get worse, build increasing division and hatred collapse and need to be rebuilt - do it now by not voting and save us all the heartache.

Guller Ball.

Be aware , if you ask Lancasterclaret a question he sees as awkward, he'll use his favourite tactic of swerving out and saying , "I've already answered you"

Dont say you weren't warned.

[Lancasterclaret]

Guller Ball.

Be aware , if you ask Lancasterclaret a question he sees as awkward, he'll use his favourite tactic of swerving out and saying , "I've already answered you"

Dont say you weren't warned.

Looks like I'm getting to Mr Radio Star today.

Win/Win

[RingoMcCartney]

Looks like I'm getting to Mr Radio Star today.

Win/Win

Getting to me!?

You'd have to matter first!

[Lancasterclaret]

Getting to me!?

You'd have to matter first!

Bit weird you replying to someone who doesn't matter!

[RMutt]

Another jumping to assumptions - this is what politics is doing to you. You try to make things fit into boxes that you can either like or dislike.

I am not a voter of any party and until politics change to be more cooperative and for the people then I never will be. Try taking the blinkers off and realise that our present political modus operandi is broken.

We can make a difference but the first clear pointer to change is a refusal to vote for the absolute **** shower of all parties that we have at present.
Until they can act like peoples representatives and work cooperatively then we will not make progress.

I know your response will be "ah but if I dont vote for Labour/Conservative/Brexit/Green or Auntie Mary's Tea Party then I will let the others in"

OK but then you carry on perpetuating the myth that it is going to work in the future. Its not its going to get worse, build increasing division and hatred collapse and need to be rebuilt - do it now by not voting and save us all the heartache.

A lot of us have probably felt a little like you do. But the problem with waiting for long term change is that people suffer in the short term. Out of interest how would your perfect path to this new way of politics go? We start with nobody voting, what happens next?

[Jakubclaret]

I have no problem with outsourcing, as long as it involves actual cost savings and the treatment remains free.

True I agree, in the circumstances it's hard to believe that paying 2 wages at premium rate can somehow be cheaper than 1 person at a reasonable rate, treatment might remain free but at what cost, longer waiting times, something as to give, it's not a sustainable model.

[Guller Bull]

A lot of us have probably felt a little like you do. But the problem with waiting for long term change is that people suffer in the short term. Out of interest how would your perfect path to this new way of politics go? We start with nobody voting, what happens next?

RMutt - I wish like many that we had a clear vision as to what will work however I do know that this isn't. You only have to dip into this thread to see that the voters are replicating their parties and the level of bickering rather than looking for points of agreement and progress. It's like a parental situation where the kids learn from mum and dad constantly arguing and think that is the only way. If people stopped limiting their thinking by only toeing the party line then they would be able to find common ground to build from. I expect politicians to be visionaries rather than seeking popularity.

In answer to your question - If enough people did not vote then there would be questions raised and rather than the bland knocking at doors in the week before elections to garner support with a few straplines then politicians would have to really listen to want people want and work towards achievement rather than hindrance. Even at local gov't level nothing gets done because party politics bares it's teeth. By and large the vast majority of the general public want the same thing. to live harmoniously and prosper. Politics paints us as extremists, as reds, commies, fascists, tories, wishy washy liberals etc etc. We need to stop throwing ourselves behind a party colour and its mantra.

[SonofPog]

Out of interest how would your perfect path to this new way of politics go?

Until we remove the FPTP system, politics wont change. We had a chance, but people preferred to get annoyed at Nick Clegg for breaking an manifesto promise rather than give us a chance for a better system. (not perfect though of course)

However Cons / Lab wont vote for a PR system, until then, people like me that live in a safe seat, for a party they don't support, will see little point in voting. (Although they should go an spoil their ballot). Which is what i'll probably do.

The over use of Party whips also needs to be looked at, MPs should be allowed to vote as they feel rather than the party leader demands, although that's tougher to fix.

[Lancasterclaret]

Good point that keeps being made

Sick of these Brexit debates?

Then vote for a party that will revoke Article 50.

Then it all stops for five years at least, and probably longer.

[ClaretAndJew]

HOW'S YA BREXIT GOIN LADS?

[Spijed]

Robert Peston
✔
@Peston
Government is now threatening to pull the general-election bill if Labour insists on amendment to enfranchise 3.4m EU citizens. It all gets crazier

[martin_p]

Robert Peston
✔
@Peston
Government is now threatening to pull the general-election bill if Labour insists on amendment to enfranchise 3.4m EU citizens. It all gets crazier

I doubt it will get called. Even if it does it’s unlikely to pass.

[RMutt]

Thanks for your reply. ( Guller Bill) l’d love to be able to agree with you but I think that giving up voting just won’t be enough to achieve your goal. Voting numbers are already quite low and that fact has not influenced policy. Whilst some vote there will always be a government and an opposition. I cannot envisage a time when no one votes. I suppose proportional representation might go some way to the sort of compromise politics you want.

[Burnley Ace]

Robert Peston
✔
@Peston
Government is now threatening to pull the general-election bill if Labour insists on amendment to enfranchise 3.4m EU citizens. It all gets crazier

So when Jeremy “won’t someone think of the students” Corbyn found out that the vast majority of University hadn’t finished for Christmas he is now concerned about EU citizens!!

Has he called for 16 year olds to get to vote as well?

[aggi]

Lots of talk that one of the amendments may be to try and bring in 16 and 17 year olds.

Personally I feel that 18 is the right age but will be interesting to see if it happens.