Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:57 pm

aggi wrote:When you look at the Lord Ashcroft polls just after the Brexit vote the majority of Brexit voters thought that life in Britain today is worse than it was 30 years ago. I suspect it's that attitude which makes people think that Brexit voters are harking back to years gone by.

As to why they think that, that's one for the Brexit voters.
Could that be true though, that life generally speaking overall as deteriorated over the course of 30 years, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s outdated assessment, what used to special & enjoyable then could still be the same now in a different set of circumstances.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:12 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Could that be true though, that life generally speaking overall as deteriorated over the course of 30 years, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s outdated assessment, what used to special & enjoyable then could still be the same now in a different set of circumstances.
Then you get idiots like ringo listing crap things that have happened over the last 40 years and try to pretend that they are the fault of the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:26 pm

If it be your will wrote:Your last line is simplistic and shows an abject lack of understanding of what has happened in the Labour party in the last 12 months. The first thing to establish is that Corbyn and Mcdonnell are leavers. They've always been leavers. They've articulately explained why they're leavers many, many times in the past. I agree with them as to why they want to leave the EU. If they really have changed their mind in some 'Road to Demascus' moment, then they need to offer an explanation in order for this dramatic reversal to look credible. They have offered no explanation.

What really happened is this: They had opponents - largely in the Blair camp - and supporters in the socialist camp. Corbyn and McDonnell faced a difficult choice. They could either please their supporters or they could please their opponents. At every turn they foolishly chose the latter - mandatory reselection, IHRA, and now Brexit. Each time they went with appeasing the Blairites. But they were never going to please their opponents whatever they did, and now they're trapped desperately pretending to support things - e.g. 'remain' - they absolutely don't, and looking utterly ridiculous in the process. They were even happy to hang their staunchest supporters like Cris Williamson out to dry to try and please the Blairites.

That's how they've upset both leavers and remainers. Not by triangulation on Brexit, nor by some ham-fisted attempt at uniting the leave and remain camps. They've upset everyone by becoming ridiculous, disingenuous, and embarrassing. The result of this election will be every blairites dream: a heavy Corbyn defeat.
Are you saying that Momentum are Blairites? They've been one of the drivers in the Labour party having a more pro-remain view. I wouldn't disagree that Corbyn and McDonnell are leavers but they've also said that they will be directed by the party members as to what direction they should go and the members have come out more pro-remain.

Your version doesn't really seem to tally with what's happened unless you're suggesting the majority of members are Blairites but that doesn't seem to match with Corbyn being elected to leader.

Labour are trying to square the circle of a lot of their active, young members now being relatively socialist but also pro-EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:27 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Then you get idiots like ringo listing crap things that have happened over the last 40 years and try to pretend that they are the fault of the EU.
“Could that be true” was objectively & trying to further what aggi initially posted & hoping this would perhaps prompt another poster to comment how they felt within the last 30 years to build upon what aggi initially posted & try to understand if it’s rational for people to feel that way. Sorry for trying to expand upon aggi post.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:49 pm

aggi wrote:Are you saying that Momentum are Blairites? They've been one of the drivers in the Labour party having a more pro-remain view. I wouldn't disagree that Corbyn and McDonnell are leavers but they've also said that they will be directed by the party members as to what direction they should go and the members have come out more pro-remain.

Your version doesn't really seem to tally with what's happened unless you're suggesting the majority of members are Blairites but that doesn't seem to match with Corbyn being elected to leader.

Labour are trying to square the circle of a lot of their active, young members now being relatively socialist but also pro-EU.
It's not squaring circles that's the problem. It's not telling the truth as they see it that's the problem.

Momentum are pro-remain now because the socialists and leavers have left Momentum. Momentum are now an irrelevance - a husk. They've just displayed their irrelevance in the last conference. They've shown their irrelevance in the trigger-ballots, with their preferred candidates losing nearly every time, and they will show their irrelevance again over the next 6 weeks. You can safely ignore Momentum - they're finished.

The blairites, with Remain/Peoples Vote campaign, finally found something where they were in tune with the members. Rather than explaining to the members the possible advantages of leaving (which they did for the previous 40 years), Corbyn and McDonnell immediately caved in instead. Because they caved in without giving this explanation, most members erroneously believe the 2017 manifesto can be implemented as a member of the EU. (Actually, I'm saying that, I think most members - just in the last month or so - have realised just how tight the EU straightjcket is, but it's too late.)

Does it tally a bit better now?

(edit - The 'Are you saying' tactic is a bit tired. Unless, of course, you honestly thought I thought Momentum were Blairites, despite me saying for months Momentum are virtually non-existent. Oh and these 'Active young members' you speak of, I haven't met one since 2017. They've all found better things to do, I think.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am

If it be your will wrote:It's not squaring circles that's the problem. It's not telling the truth as they see it that's the problem.

Momentum are pro-remain now because the socialists and leavers have left Momentum. Momentum are now an irrelevance - a husk. They've just displayed their irrelevance in the last conference. They've shown their irrelevance in the trigger-ballots, with their preferred candidates losing nearly every time, and they will show their irrelevance again over the next 6 weeks. You can safely ignore Momentum - they're finished.

The blairites, with Remain/Peoples Vote campaign, finally found something where they were in tune with the members. Rather than explaining to the members the possible advantages of leaving (which they did for the previous 40 years), Corbyn and McDonnell immediately caved in instead. Because they caved in without giving this explanation, most members erroneously believe the 2017 manifesto can be implemented as a member of the EU. (Actually, I'm saying that, I think most members - just in the last month or so - have realised just how tight the EU straightjcket is, but it's too late.)

Does it tally a bit better now?

(edit - The 'Are you saying' tactic is a bit tired. Unless, of course, you honestly thought I thought Momentum were Blairites, despite me saying for months Momentum are virtually non-existent. Oh and these 'Active young members' you speak of, I haven't met one since 2017. They've all found better things to do, I think.)
Whether or not Momentum are relevant in terms of numbers I'd say they are indicative of a branch that is pro-Corbyn and pro-remain. Being in London I may have a different experience but I've met plenty of young, Labour members who are pro-Corbyn and his beliefs and also pro-remain. They seem more willing to compromise on nationalisation, if needs be, than remaining.

I don't think that some more explanation will convince a large part of the Labour membership that they really want to leave, particularly the younger and more recent ones, however much you hope that is the case.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:46 am

aggi wrote:Whether or not Momentum are relevant in terms of numbers I'd say they are indicative of a branch that is pro-Corbyn and pro-remain. Being in London I may have a different experience but I've met plenty of young, Labour members who are pro-Corbyn and his beliefs and also pro-remain. They seem more willing to compromise on nationalisation, if needs be, than remaining.

I don't think that some more explanation will convince a large part of the Labour membership that they really want to leave, particularly the younger and more recent ones, however much you hope that is the case.
Next time you meet one, ask if they're happy to compromise on reversing NHS outsourcing, the National Investment Bank, and a fully state run National Education Service, too.

And if the answer is yes, and they have no particular desire for nationilasation of utilities and rail either, ask them why not just vote Lib Dem then? (Oh, there's the student fees thing, I suppose. They can actually do that one as an EU member. Maybe that's keeping the students on board.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:59 am

Happy Brexit Day everyone.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:26 am

Happy Brexit Day to you too!

Thats two this year!

Anyway, want to know what the US wants out of a trade deal with the UK?

They have helpfully told everyone what they are aiming for.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Su ... ctives.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:29 am

Or if its easier, here is Page 8

Procedural Fairness for Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices:

- Seek standards to ensure that government regulatory reimbursement regimes are transparent,
provide procedural fairness, are nondiscriminatory, and provide full market access for U.S.
products.

State-Owned and Controlled Enterprises (SOEs):

- Define SOEs on the basis of government ownership or government control through ownership
interests, including situations of control through minority shareholding.
- Retain the ability to support SOEs engaged in providing domestic public services.
- Ensure that SOEs accord non-discriminatory treatment with respect to the purchase and sale of
goods and services.
- Ensure that SOEs act in accordance with commercial considerations with respect to the purchase
and sale of goods and services.
- Ensure strong subsidy disciplines applicable to SOEs, beyond the disciplines set out in the WTO
Agreement on Subsidies and Countervailing Measures (SCM Agreement).
- Require that SOEs not cause harm to the United States through provision of subsidies.
- Require that SOEs not cause harm to the domestic industry of the United States via subsidized
SOE investment.
- Ensure impartial regulation of SOEs, designated monopolies, and private companies.
- Provide jurisdiction to courts over the commercial activities of foreign SOEs.
9
- Allow Parties to request information related to the level of government ownership and control of
a given enterprise and the extent of government support.
- Develop a fact-finding mechanism to help overcome the evidentiary problems associated with
litigation on SOEs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret2018 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:42 am

Merry Brexmas, and a happy new project fear

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:47 am

claret2018 wrote:Merry Brexmas, and a happy new project fear
Election time!

Mis-information and wine!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:47 am

whine*
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:19 pm

obviously been a slow day so far :)
Thought there would have been some trick or treating on here, ohhhh well, maybe people are getting there costumes ready

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:52 pm

houseboy wrote:The OP and the report don't mention Brexit but someone on here had to. Why? To use the leave campaign as an example of political lying is to ignore completely the fact that the remain campaign also lied and continues to do so. Or do you refuse to accept that?
Cool, could you post some of the remain campaigns similarly egregious social media ads please, as this is what the topic relates to.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:06 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Cool, could you post some of the remain campaigns similarly egregious social media ads please, as this is what the topic relates to.
Granted not a lie, you could call it theft though technically using taxpayers money to fund a remain leaflet we never even asked for.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:42 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Granted not a lie, you could call it theft though technically using taxpayers money to fund a remain leaflet we never even asked for.
We didn't ask for austerity, nor did we ask for billions of our money to go to the banks. But you're upset about a piece of paper with some facts on it.

Quite the metaphor there, eh?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:50 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:We didn't ask for austerity, nor did we ask for billions of our money to go to the banks. But you're upset about a piece of paper with some facts on it.

Quite the metaphor there, eh?
On balance it's rich complaining about lies, if I take money from somebody & spend it on something they don't want or haven't even asked for, in my book that's theft plain & simple.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:37 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Granted not a lie, you could call it theft though technically using taxpayers money to fund a remain leaflet we never even asked for.
I presume you've seen the news about this latest incident of 'theft' and are pretty unhappy about it?

Government ministers spending taxpayers money on Facebook ads, targeted at voters in election swing seats:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... da552d92d9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:19 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:I presume you've seen the news about this latest incident of 'theft' and are pretty unhappy about it?

Government ministers spending taxpayers money on Facebook ads, targeted at voters in election swing seats:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... da552d92d9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Theft is theft I won't dispute that, but I do think this is a unfair comparison, let's not lose sight of the scale of the money being spent on both incidents this appears to be specifically targeting leave areas, which you could argue it's a sensible strategy we are talking post referendum at a point where people have already decided, the other incident involved a more expensive large scale nationwide leaflet drop & more importantly at a point pre referendum date, let's be fair John & not try to hoodwink.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:40 am

Surprised that no-one's mentioned Trump and his comments (or his interfering in UK politics if you're one of those snowflakes who whinged about Obama I guess) saying that Johnson's deal could rule out a US trade deal.

It may not actually be that bad a thing. I suspect, particularly given our current standard of negotiation, that we'd get royally shafted on any trade deal with the US.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:25 pm

aggi wrote:Surprised that no-one's mentioned Trump and his comments (or his interfering in UK politics if you're one of those snowflakes who whinged about Obama I guess) saying that Johnson's deal could rule out a US trade deal.

It may not actually be that bad a thing. I suspect, particularly given our current standard of negotiation, that we'd get royally shafted on any trade deal with the US.
Farage was most furious about Obama wasn’t he.

I’m sure he’ll do the same when he hears what Trump has said. He’s a man of principle. He won’t accept it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:00 pm

The people who were supremely comfortable about Barack Obama, are exactly the same people absolutely furious with Donald Trump.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:04 pm

AndyClaret wrote:The people who were supremely comfortable about Barack Obama, are exactly the same people absolutely furious with Donald Trump.
I assume you can back that up.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:05 pm

AndyClaret wrote:The people who were supremely comfortable about Barack Obama, are exactly the same people absolutely furious with Donald Trump.
Obama had some failings as a President, but his big plus point with me is that he wasn't a raving, racist lunatic.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:06 pm

AndyClaret wrote:The people who were supremely comfortable about Barack Obama, are exactly the same people absolutely furious with Donald Trump.
Noone's furious with Trump though, his performance with Farage was comedy gold. Its you lot who got upset and are now showing complete hypocrisy which aggi and others are merely pointing out

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:07 pm

AndyClaret wrote:The people who were supremely comfortable about Barack Obama, are exactly the same people absolutely furious with Donald Trump.
Let's compare. Explain exactly how Obama interfered.

BTW, the more Trump interferes by saying Johnson and Farage are the way to go, the happier i'll be.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rick_Muller » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:16 pm

not sure if this has been posted, but this is fantastic... :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_pZCktIUs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:18 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Let's compare. Explain exactly how Obama interfered.

BTW, the more Trump interferes by saying Johnson and Farage are the way to go, the happier i'll be.
That was a given IT, many will think that way however many won't so it's not really relevant in my mind.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Obama had some failings as a President, but his big plus point with me is that he wasn't a raving, racist lunatic.
That's a wild thing to say about somebody based on what exactly? I'm not sticking up for him I don't know him, just seems a strong set of words for somebody, it's logical in that to assume you've had some sort of first hand experience to be so confident in that manner.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:That's a wild thing to say about somebody based on what exactly? I'm not sticking up for him I don't know him, just seems a strong set of words for somebody, it's logical in that to assume you've had some sort of first hand experience to be so confident in that manner.

You think Obama might have been a raving, racist lunatic?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:53 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You think Obama might have been a raving, racist lunatic?
Not sure on either tbh, anyway the question was directed towards LC. I've noticed what you seem to do, you don't answer questions even if asked & then bat back with another question & then expect a answer before the initial question as been answered. Quite amusing actually in a odd way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:58 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Not sure on either tbh, anyway the question was directed towards LC. I've noticed what you seem to do, you don't answer questions even if asked & then bat back with another question & then expect a answer before the initial question as been answered. Quite amusing actually in a odd way.
But you haven't asked me a question. Are you feeling OK?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:01 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:But you haven't asked me a question. Are you feeling OK?
True, you felt the need to ask me 1 when I hadn't asked you 1, anyway I'm not going round in circles with you, I'll see if LC answers after all the question was directed that way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:True, you felt the need to ask me 1 when I hadn't asked you 1, anyway I'm not going round in circles with you, I'll see if LC answers after all the question was directed that way.
What the **** are you on about? lol. When did it become only OK to ask someone a question if they've asked you one? And didn't you literally just complain about exactly that?

******* coward. You know it was pretty stupid to try and claim Obama might have been a raving racist, or that Trump wasn't and now you're worried that you might have to defend your opinion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What the **** are you on about? lol. When did it become only OK to ask someone a question if they've asked you one? And didn't you literally just complain about exactly that?

******* coward. You know it was pretty stupid to try and claim Obama might have been a raving racist, or that Trump wasn't and now you're worried that you might have to defend your opinion.
To defend a opinion you have to express 1, anyway like I said I'm not going around in circles with you, I should have ignored this to be honest.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:12 pm

Imagine Who Want To Be A Millionaire with those rules?

Question 1:.........

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:13 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:To defend a opinion you have to express 1, anyway like I said I'm going around in circles with you, I should have ignored this to be honest.
You said it was a wild thing to say that Obama wasn't a raving racist. That's an expressed opinion.

Why is it a wild thing to say?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:22 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:That's a wild thing to say about somebody based on what exactly? I'm not sticking up for him I don't know him, just seems a strong set of words for somebody, it's logical in that to assume you've had some sort of first hand experience to be so confident in that manner.
I never met Adolf Hitler. But I'm confident he wasn't a nice guy.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I never met Adolf Hitler. But I'm confident he wasn't a nice guy.
It's easier to judge dead people as it's accountable history & the legacy is left albeit a bad 1 in your example, people still living it's harder, anyway thanks for the answering the question, it's told me what I wanted to know, I won't ask you anymore questions regarding DT :D

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I never met Adolf Hitler. But I'm confident he wasn't a nice guy.
You may well have thought Hitler a very nice guy prior to his gassing fighting for Austria. An animal loving vegetarian wandering around Liverpool whose only wish was to be an artist. He clearly had charisma, one on one or he could never have got people to go to such extremes to please him and propel him to the top.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:42 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It's easier to judge dead people as it's accountable history & the legacy is left albeit a bad 1 in your example, people still living it's harder, anyway thanks for the answering the question, it's told me what I wanted to know, I won't ask you anymore questions regarding DT :D
You talking about the racist white supremacist, Donald Trump? Or another DT?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:47 pm

elwaclaret wrote:You may well have thought Hitler a very nice guy prior to his gassing fighting for Austria. An animal loving vegetarian wandering around Liverpool whose only wish was to be an artist. He clearly had charisma, one on one or he could never have got people to go to such extremes to please him and propel him to the top.
The aftermath of the versailles treaty changed certain people, no way excusing AH, but living people change & harder to judge that's the point I was trying to get across.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ClaretAndJew » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:47 pm

So we have to meet people to know they are bad people?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Barry_Chuckle » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:49 pm

FFS, this petty points scoring still going on :roll:
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:44 pm

Been away a few days with no access to tv or internet (bliss!). Did Brexit happen?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:32 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Why dont the Tory's go and spend some real time and effort tackling the foreign country's that subvert our election process - though to be fair the answer to this is obvious
Where's all the usual suspects who were up in arms about voter ID and protecting the integrity of our democratic processes.

Thought you'd be up in arms about our PM doing everything he can to suppress reports into the involvement of the Russians and their attempts to subvert
RingoMcCartney wrote:the biggest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:22 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Where's all the usual suspects who were up in arms about voter ID and protecting the integrity of our democratic processes.

Thought you'd be up in arms about our PM doing everything he can to suppress reports into the involvement of the Russians and their attempts to subvert
Ah, but this is the good type of subversion!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:53 pm

elwaclaret wrote:You may well have thought Hitler a very nice guy prior to his gassing fighting for Austria. An animal loving vegetarian wandering around Liverpool whose only wish was to be an artist. He clearly had charisma, one on one or he could never have got people to go to such extremes to please him and propel him to the top.
Most historians doubt Hitler visited his half brother (Alois) in Liverpool, but strangely enough, a set of my great grandparents lived near Lime St Station too, and also worked in hotels there, so might have known Alois themselves.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 am

AndrewJB wrote:Most historians doubt Hitler visited his half brother (Alois) in Liverpool, but strangely enough, a set of my great grandparents lived near Lime St Station too, and also worked in hotels there, so might have known Alois themselves.
Do historians carry more weight than a sister in law.

http://jmu-journalism.org.uk/did-hitler ... liverpool/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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