Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Dixie Normous]

Boring

[AndrewJB]

I understand his point entirely! He simply can't bring himself round to saying what we both know he wants to say!

So you've offered 1950 when the people of Burnley voted Labour. This was something they did repeatedly, right up until 2010.

In 2010 they voted Liberal Democrat.

In 2015 and 2017 they voted Labour, once again.

In 2019 they voted Conservative.

In the above years , which do you feel the People of Burnley voted in a way that, to you , showed that they knew what was best for themselves?

In 1950 nearly 90% of voters voted - so if we're going by what Burnley voters knew what was best for themselves, then I'd say that's the best way to judge it. In later years fewer people voted, so it's not the best reflection.

I don't think you understand DA's point at all. You're both talking about different things.

[AndrewJB]

Great!

So despite "for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

What does it allow them to say through the ballot box?

All you get is a crap system. How many votes for UKIP in 2015, and how many seats? Same with the Green Party, and SNP. It's a rubbish system. Let's bin it.

[RingoMcCartney]

In 1950 nearly 90% of voters voted - so if we're going by what Burnley voters knew what was best for themselves, then I'd say that's the best way to judge it. In later years fewer people voted, so it's not the best reflection.

I don't think you understand DA's point at all. You're both talking about different things.

Why do you feel you are able to offer a year when I assume, neither of us were even born. Yet you're unable to offer an opinion on more recent years. Say 2005, 2010, 2015, 2016 and 2019? Surely you're not going to let a lower turnout prevent you having an opinion on which year the people of Burnley voted in a way that was in their best interests are you!?

In the last 10 years the electorate, which is pretty much the same, allowing for natural changes in the electoral register due to age and death, has chosen an MP from 3 different political parties.

Surely you have an opinion?

When did the People of Burnley vote in the best interest of the people of Burnley Andrew? 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

[martin_p]

Great!

So despite "for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

What does it allow them to say through the ballot box?

It allows them to choose someone whose job it will be to understand the complex and economical global issues and use that knowledge to make the best decisions for the people of Burnley.

[RingoMcCartney]

All you get is a crap system. How many votes for UKIP in 2015, and how many seats? Same with the Green Party, and SNP. It's a rubbish system. Let's bin it.

Was it a " crap system " in 1945, 50, 64, 66, 74, 97, 2001 and 2005? Was it "crap" when voters returned a Labour government!?

[RingoMcCartney]

It allows them to choose someone whose job it will be to understand the complex and economical global issues and use that knowledge to make the best decisions for the people of Burnley.

And when they make that choice , are they informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests?

Yes or no?

[Devils_Advocate]

Great!

So despite "for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves"

What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

What does it allow them to say through the ballot box?

Thats a totally different discussion point and I don't know how I can be much clearer that I am only interested in the simple point I made. I can see others have managed to understand me so hopefully with their help you will get the message too.

In case you've lost track my point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

[RingoMcCartney]

Thats a totally different discussion point and I don't know how I can be much clearer that I am only interested in the simple point I made. I can see others have managed to understand me so hopefully with their help you will get the message too.

In case you've lost track my point is simply that for complex political and economical global issues the majority of people are not informed or knowledgeable enough to understand and make a decision about which course of action is best for themselves

You've repeated that point. Let's park it.

I asked- "Is there any point in universal suffrage, democracy, general elections or voting?"

You said , "Yes"

What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

What does it allow them to say through the ballot box?

[AndrewJB]

Was it a " crap system " in 1945, 50, 64, 66, 74, 97, 2001 and 2005? Was "crap" when voters returned a Labour government!?

Yes.

[martin_p]

And when they make that choice , are they informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests?

Yes or no?

I suspect for the majority the answer is yes. But that wasn’t what was being claimed. Being informed enough to select an MP is a world away from being informed enough to make a decision on a complex political and global issue. It’s like thinking Mike Garlick is informed enough to pick the team and tactics for Saturday just because he was informed enough to pick the man to do it for him.

[RingoMcCartney]

I would suggest that at a complex political and economically global level the people of Burnley really aren't the people who know whats best for Burnley.

At what level do you believe the people of Burnley know whats best for Burnley and it's people?

[RingoMcCartney]

I suspect for the majority the answer is yes.

That's all I needed.

So you agree. The majority of The People of Burnley are informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests?

So, in recent times, say the last 15 years or so. When did the people of Burnley demonstrate, in your opinion, they knew what was best for them . By who they returned to parliament , to represent them when it came to, complex political and global issues?


Was it in 2005, 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

[martin_p]

That's all I needed.

So you agree. The People of Burnley are informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests?

So, in recent times, say the last 15 years or so. When did the people of Burnley demonstrate, in your opinion, they knew what was best for them . By who they returned to parliament , to represent them when it came to, complex political and global issues.

Was it in 2005, 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

Don’t know and don’t care. I’ve talked to the point that was being made not one you’ve somehow managed to read from DA’s initial point despite the fact he’s consistently pointed that out.

[AndrewJB]

Why do you feel you are able to offer a year when I assume, neither of us were even born. Yet you're unable to offer an opinion on more recent years. Say 2005, 2010, 2015, 2016 and 2019? Surely you're not going to let a lower turnout prevent you having an opinion on which year the people of Burnley voted in a way that was in their best interests are you!?

In the last 10 years the electorate, which is pretty much the same, allowing for natural changes in the electoral register due to age and death, has chosen an MP from 3 different political parties.

Surely you have an opinion?

When did the People of Burnley vote in the best interest of the people of Burnley Andrew? 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

I chose that year because the voter turnout was higher than any other. Therefore that year was more democratic.

Which would you choose, and why?

[Colburn_Claret]

I don't think DA is struggling at all, apart from dealing with your inability to understand his point. But to answer your question, it's unquestionably 1950, when nearly 90% of voters turned out.

Does that answer your question?

You're confusing apathy with knowledge. People today aren't less informed, only too many of them don't give a ****.
It's a sad state, but true.

[RingoMcCartney]

I chose that year because the voter turnout was higher than any other. Therefore that year was more democratic.

Which would you choose, and why?

If swerving and squirming were Olympic events youd be a gold medal winner!



Please stop letting yourself down Andrew, I'm almost embarrassed for you!

When did the People of Burnley vote in the best interest of the people of Burnley Andrew? 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

[RingoMcCartney]

Don’t know and don’t care. I’ve talked to the point that was being made not one you’ve somehow managed to read from DA’s initial point despite the fact he’s consistently pointed that out.

Another one stepping on the podium for world class wriggling!



In actual fact DAs very first response was to my question to andrew yesterday. When I asked the very simple question- "Who knows what's best for Burnley, the people of Burnley or a metropolitan bubble dweller, based 100s of miles away.

Since then hes ducked and dived and avoided admitting what we both know he really thinks!

Why cant you, DA and Andrew grow a pair and simply admit what we all know you're desperate not to want to admit!

Namely, you believe that the people of Burnley arent capable of knowing whats best for the People of Burnley!

Otherwise, youd be able to tell me when they've shown they are!

[martin_p]

Another one stepping on the podium for world class wriggling!



In actual fact DAs very first response was to my question to andrew yesterday. When I asked the very simple question- "Who knows what's best for Burnley, the people of Burnley or a metropolitan bubble dweller, based 100s of miles away.

Since then hes ducked and dived and avoided admitting what we both know he really thinks!

Why cant you, DA and Andrew grow a pair and simply admit what we all know you're desperate not to want to admit!

Namely, you believe that the people of Burnley arent capable of knowing whats best for the People of Burnley!

Otherwise, youd be able to tell me when they've shown they are!

Your reading and comprehension skills haven’t improved have they. I’ve already answered the question when it comes to electing an MP but said electing an MP and deciding on a complex issue are different things. And I don’t single out the people of Burnley, it applies to the electorate in general, yes even the metropolitan bubble dwellers!

Is that so hard to understand?

[RingoMcCartney]

Your reading and comprehension skills haven’t improved have they. I’ve already answered the question when it comes to electing an MP but said electing an MP and deciding on a complex issue are different things. And I don’t single out the people of Burnley, it applies to the electorate in general, yes even the metropolitan bubble dwellers!

Is that so hard to understand?

You havent answered it. You'd have named a year, or years had you actually answered it!

My original question to Andrew JB was "who knows what's best for the people of Burnley? The people of Burnley or a metropolitan bubble dweller.?"

I didn't ask if the people of Burnley were best placed to work out "complex political and global issues", just, when it comes to choosing someone to do it for them who knows best?

It was DA who went off on a tangent droning on repeatedly about "complex political and global issues"

I asked you

"What does a general election offer to, say, The People of Burnley?

You said,

It allows them to choose someone whose job it will be to understand the complex and economical global issues and use that knowledge to make the best decisions for the people of Burnley.

Then I asked you-

"And when they make that choice , are they informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests?

Yes or no?"

I suspect for the majority the answer is yes

So, by your very own admittance, the people of Burnley are "informed and knowledgeable enough , to decide which of the various candidates is best placed to represent their interests" At a general election that , "allows them to choose someone whose job it will be to understand the complex and economical global issues and use that knowledge to make the best decisions for the people of Burnley"

When, in your opinion, did they do this?

2005, 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

Or are you saying they never have?


(3 political posters and not one capable of naming a year!!!)

[AndrewJB]

If swerving and squirming were Olympic events youd be a gold medal winner!



Please stop letting yourself down Andrew, I'm almost embarrassed for you!

When did the People of Burnley vote in the best interest of the people of Burnley Andrew? 2010, 2015, 2017 or 2019?

You asked me a question, and I gave you an answer. You didn’t like my answer, so asked the question again, perhaps hoping I’d give you a different answer.

[Zlatan]

Namely, you believe that the people of Burnley arent capable of knowing whats best for the People of Burnley!

As someone who has lived in various places across the UK I can categorically state that dwellers of East Lancs are generally very insular and I would agree that to al large extent the people of Burnley don’t know what’s actually best for them. Controversial I know, and it isn’t exclusive to East Lancs, there are other places (especially North East)

[KateR]

I don’t have to agree because you’re wrong. Brexit was delayed by ten months but whoever was to blame for that (and about half that time period was because the likes of Johnson and the ERG wouldn’t agree to May’s deal) there was provision in the withdrawal agreement to mitigate delays. Johnson is choosing not the use that.

Believe what ever you like Martin, the fact is most people believe it and you saw the results of the GE, or was that vote altogether wrong or for some other reason you want to believe.

[KateR]

There is a difference between criticism (you'll find I own up to mistakes I make, and appreciate a different take on things than mine), and insults (posting to someone as you would a recalcitrant child). Civility is a good thing to aim at.

I suspect you won't engage because you can't. Whether that's because you're unable to due to the facts, or your pride, I suppose other people can decide.

Andrew at times you're like Walter Mitty, you live in your own little world.

I am convinced about the insults you've given out over years, so many of your posts to Ringo have been insulting, so please don't try the civility card here.

I explained to DA I was not insulting him or you regarding what you've taken exception to plus what I said was true, is factual. I was trying to get an answer and didn't want the usual guff about slogans and the media drove the results, which is what you have both said time and time again. I was trying to engage but obviously doesn't work with you I'm sorry to say.

[Jakubclaret]

As someone who has lived in various places across the UK I can categorically state that dwellers of East Lancs are generally very insular and I would agree that to al large extent the people of Burnley don’t know what’s actually best for them. Controversial I know, and it isn’t exclusive to East Lancs, there are other places (especially North East)

Believe me, when you've been raised in a area all your life, went to school in the area, worked in the area, lived & socialised in the area, you know exactly what's best for the area, Pendle & Burnley have seen that much immigration forced & that much cultural erosion & dips in everyday living standards to know enough what's to know.

[Zlatan]

Believe me, when you've been raised in a area all your life, went to school in the area, worked in the area, lived & socialised in the area, you know exactly what's best for the area, Pendle & Burnley have seen that much immigration forced & that much cultural erosion & dips in everyday living standards to know enough what's to know.

Fair comment, and may well be a factor in my observations too

[Jakubclaret]

Fair comment, and may well be a factor in my observations too

Depends how close you are, that's why andrewJB gets so much short shrift talking about what people feel & experience while ensconced in london, you feel it to the core here once having a good life & then the change (immigration) & then the resulting scrapheap.

[Spijed]

Pendle & Burnley have seen that much immigration forced & that much cultural erosion & dips in everyday living standards to know enough what's to know.

And the irony of that is the majority of immigration has come from outside the EU in places such as Burnley and Pendle, thus Brexit won't make one iota of difference in those areas.

[Jakubclaret]

And the irony of that is the majority of immigration has come from outside the EU in places such as Burnley and Pendle, thus Brexit won't make one iota of difference in those areas.

That's the chance people are willing to take, I get your point though, you can't reverse something that's too far gone, we can restrict now at best & that's all.

[Zlatan]

Depends how close you are, that's why andrewJB gets so much short shrift talking about what people feel & experience while ensconced in london, you feel it to the core here once having a good life & then the change (immigration) & then the resulting scrapheap.

Lived in Briefield for 16 years, now back down south for the past 10. Kids still there, obviously visit for match days

[RingoMcCartney]

You asked me a question, and I gave you an answer. You didn’t like my answer, so asked the question again, perhaps hoping I’d give you a different answer.

But Andrew I accepted your answer of 1950. I respect the reasons you gave for that answer.

I asked a different , subsequent, question.

I asked of the more recent general elections, which one(s) would you point to as one where the people of Burnley voted in their best self interests?

2005, 10, 15, 17 or 19.

I'd be interested in your answer as this period saw the same (essentially) electorate vote for MP'S from 3 different parties.

[Jakubclaret]

Lived in Briefield for 16 years, now back down south for the past 10. Kids still there, obviously visit for match days

I've been on the front for longer than I care to remember & noticed the lead balloon effect.

[RingoMcCartney]

As someone who has lived in various places across the UK I can categorically state that dwellers of East Lancs are generally very insular and I would agree that to al large extent the people of Burnley don’t know what’s actually best for them. Controversial I know, and it isn’t exclusive to East Lancs, there are other places (especially North East)

Finally!!

Somebody who doesn't duck and dive, who doesn't squirm, wriggle and avoid a straight forward answer because they're desperate to want to not have to admit what they really think, and what you've just admitted!

So well done, and fair play, for being honest!

Andrew JB , Devils Advocate and Martin p, could all learn a lesson from you!

Mind you if they did, it wouldn't half spoil the fun I've had watching them pretend they dont understand the question I'm asking , as they know where its leading! The, going round the houses , point blank refusal to be able to name a specific year is comedy gold!

Anyway, back to the point. You believe "dwellers of East Lancs are generally very insular and I would agree that to al large extent the people of Burnley don’t know what’s actually best for them."

As an aside, I believe Londoners are probably the most insular people in the country.

So I'll ask you 2 questions


1, Do you believe the People of Burnley everhave , or ever will know what's best for them?

If yes, when was it or when will it be?


2, If no, then do you feel there is any point in democracy and general elections, and places like Burnley and it's people voting. If you feel they " dont know what’s actually best for them."

Thanks for your refreshing honesty.

[nil_desperandum]

And the irony of that is the majority of immigration has come from outside the EU in places such as Burnley and Pendle, thus Brexit won't make one iota of difference in those areas.

IMO it will.
Under the proposed new immigration rules we are likely to see some reduction in immigration from the EU but a significant increase from Asia etc. They will most likely gravitate towards areas where they already have a significant presence. There'll be an increase.

[RingoMcCartney]

Believe me, when you've been raised in a area all your life, went to school in the area, worked in the area, lived & socialised in the area, you know exactly what's best for the area, Pendle & Burnley have seen that much immigration forced & that much cultural erosion & dips in everyday living standards to know enough what's to know.

Stop stating the bleeding obvious JC!
Your supposed to argue the toss about what voters expect MPs do when they get to parliament. Rather than say whether or not they're actially capable of choosing and MP who they feel will act in their best interests, based on their experiences in their own town!

You clearly didn't receive the memo regarding not talking Common sense!

[Zlatan]

As an aside, I believe Londoners are probably the most insular people in the country.

So I'll ask you 2 questions


1, Do you believe the People of Burnley everhave , or ever will know what's best for them?

If yes, when was it or when will it be?


2, If no, then do you feel there is any point in democracy and general elections, and places like Burnley and it's people voting. If you feel they " dont know what’s actually best for them."

Thanks for your refreshing honesty.

I said I’m down south, not London. I agree that those in the cesspit of the big smoke are also very insular (generally)

I don’t think I’m qualified enough to answer your questions, but I will say that on balance democracy is the least bad option for running a country.

[aggi]

IMO it will.
Under the proposed new immigration rules we are likely to see some reduction in immigration from the EU but a significant increase from Asia etc. They will most likely gravitate towards areas where they already have a significant presence. There'll be an increase.

The numbers are already showing a fall in EU immigration being matched by an increase in non-EU immigration. (As an aside, EU immigrants generally make a positive contribution to the UK economy whereas it's the opposite for non-EU).

Anyone who is expecting a fall in immigration is likely to be disappointed.

[Jakubclaret]

The numbers are already showing a fall in EU immigration being matched by an increase in non-EU immigration. (As an aside, EU immigrants generally make a positive contribution to the UK economy whereas it's the opposite for non-EU).

Anyone who is expecting a fall in immigration is likely to be disappointed.

It’s already evident contrary to that statement though, for now. The non eu immigration is rising but not at the same level taking into consideration the population stats.

[aggi]

It’s already evident contrary to that statement though, for now. The non eu immigration is rising but not at the same level taking into consideration the population stats.

From yesterday's paper:

Overall net migration remained “broadly stable” at 240,000, the ONS said, as the increase in non-EU arrivals offset a fall in EU migrants following the Brexit referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 62531.html

[Bfcboyo]

The numbers are already showing a fall in EU immigration being matched by an increase in non-EU immigration. (As an aside, EU immigrants generally make a positive contribution to the UK economy whereas it's the opposite for non-EU).

Anyone who is expecting a fall in immigration is likely to be disappointed.

We want better quality immigrants not the dregs and criminals flooding in unchecked.

[aggi]

We want better quality immigrants not the dregs and criminals flooding in unchecked.

As an aside, EU immigrants generally make a positive contribution to the UK economy whereas it's the opposite for non-EU.

[Jakubclaret]

From yesterday's paper:

Overall net migration remained “broadly stable” at 240,000, the ONS said, as the increase in non-EU arrivals offset a fall in EU migrants following the Brexit referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 62531.html

I edited my post to acknowledge that the non EU arrivals are increasing whilst the EU departures are also increasing, the figures don’t include any illegals as well which I believe to be a sizeable unknown number, I don’t think any immigration is good for the country unless it’s skilled & NHS orientated.

[Spijed]

I don’t think any immigration is good for the country unless it’s skilled & NHS orientated.

The problem is that Brits don't want the dirty jobs, such as cleaning toilets etc.

[Jakubclaret]

The problem is that Brits don't want the dirty jobs, such as cleaning toilets etc.

If you stop the welfare there’s no alternative, or make the jobs more financially beneficial. The answers are always there without exploiting immigration & cheaper labour, you’ll be absolutely amazed at people getting up off there backsides when a rewarding paypacket is in the offing.

[Spijed]

If you stop the welfare there’s no alternative, or make the jobs more financially beneficial. The answers are always there without exploiting immigration & cheaper labour, you’ll be absolutely amazed at people getting up off there backsides when a rewarding paypacket is in the offing.

Obviously the minimum wage needs looking at.

[Jakubclaret]

Obviously the minimum wage needs looking at.

No appetite to increase it with immigration.

[aggi]

I edited my post to acknowledge that the non EU arrivals are increasing whilst the EU departures are also increasing, the figures don’t include any illegals as well which I believe to be a sizeable unknown number, I don’t think any immigration is good for the country unless it’s skilled & NHS orientated.

Fair point. Illegal immigration would be non-EU so you must be saying that non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration was.

[Jakubclaret]

Fair point. Illegal immigration would be non-EU so you must be saying that non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration was.

Illegal immigration can come in all shapes & forms, just because somebody might be entitled to work here legally doesn't necessarily mean they will choose to work legally.

[Bfcboyo]

As an aside, EU immigrants generally make a positive contribution to the UK economy whereas it's the opposite for non-EU.

Anything to back it up?

[martin_p]

Believe what ever you like Martin, the fact is most people believe it and you saw the results of the GE, or was that vote altogether wrong or for some other reason you want to believe.

It’s not a case of ‘belief’ I’m stating historical facts! Unless you’d like to point out which bit is not factual.