Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[AndrewJB]

It’s all about managing public perceptions of the government, rather than getting a deal.

[tiger76]

Trouble is that Frost's letter was in truth written for UK consumption and for the Brexit media. Frost has direct access to Barnier and could easily have told him to his face why their EU negotiating position is wrong.

The danger is Brexit Britain is still just talking to itself which in a key negotiation period with the EU and the rest of the world is slightly concerning

Yes i got the impression Frost's letter was intended for a domestic audience, Barnier is merely pointing out that the UK can't have it's cake and eat it.

Hasn't this been the case for the last 4 years,at some point the government needs to decide what it's objectives are,if it's a FTA then they'll have to make concessions somewhere to achieve that.

Now in doing so they'll no doubt upset some brexiteers,but there was always going to be a compromise,that's how negotiations generally end.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yes i got the impression Frost's letter was intended for a domestic audience, Barnier is merely pointing out that the UK can't have it's cake and eat it.

Hasn't this been the case for the last 4 years,at some point the government needs to decide what it's objectives are,if it's a FTA then they'll have to make concessions somewhere to achieve that.

Now in doing so they'll no doubt upset some brexiteers,but there was always going to be a compromise,that's how negotiations generally end.

What direction this goes in from here and what positions both us and the EU take going forward is anybodys guess and I wouldn't even try and call it.

If your into your politics then when this really kicks off again later this year prepare to be entertained

[aggi]

They've made a rod for their own back in many ways. The Leave campaign spent so long saying that we could have our cake and eat it that whatever we do end up with is going to seem like a step down (the NI border checks are a good example of this where the reality never matched the claims).

I suspect this is increasing the appetite for No Deal. It may be worse than what we already had but it at least gives Leave the ability to claim that they haven't signed up to a deal that was worse than what we had (even if in reality it is much worse).

[CombatClaret]

They've made a rod for their own back in many ways. The Leave campaign spent so long saying that we could have our cake and eat it that whatever we do end up with is going to seem like a step down (the NI border checks are a good example of this where the reality never matched the claims).

I suspect this is increasing the appetite for No Deal. It may be worse than what we already had but it at least gives Leave the ability to claim that they haven't signed up to a deal that was worse than what we had (even if in reality it is much worse).

Walking away is the macho thing to do, like continuing to shake hands with people in hospitals during a pandemic.

[tiger76]

EU faces it's own difficulties https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/finan ... 7012.html

[tiger76]

Felt this belonged here,this government are https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-nationals- ... 5458.html

[tiger76]

British farmers 'will go out of business' in UK-US trade deal, Theresa Villiers warns https://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-farm ... 06581.html

[dsr]

If a drop in farm welfare, it'll drop more with a trade deal with the EU than it would with the USA. EU animal welfare standards are poor, and this is our chance to impose the same standards on imports as we make our own farmers follow. People who are opposed to a US trade deal if it negatively impacts our farmers' competitiveness will surely be opposed to an EU same-as-before trade deal for the same reason.

[aggi]

If a drop in farm welfare, it'll drop more with a trade deal with the EU than it would with the USA. EU animal welfare standards are poor, and this is our chance to impose the same standards on imports as we make our own farmers follow. People who are opposed to a US trade deal if it negatively impacts our farmers' competitiveness will surely be opposed to an EU same-as-before trade deal for the same reason.

Which EU standards are worse than US? When you mentioned this before the only example seemed to be around foie gras whereas there were a fair few examples where the US was worse (hormones and chlorine washes being necessary being the obvious ones which would have a far greater impact).

[dsr]

Which EU standards are worse than US? When you mentioned this before the only example seemed to be around foie gras whereas there were a fair few examples where the US was worse (hormones and chlorine washes being necessary being the obvious ones which would have a far greater impact).

I didn't compare EU standards with the USA - only with the UK. Specifically, apart from the foie gras, Eastern Europe has much lower standards on care of pigs, and Spain (someone else raised this) has appalling standards on feeding animals on antibiotics. At present we can enforce welfare standards on our own farmers but can't stop the imports coming in from EU countries with lower standards. After 1st January, we will be able to require that all imports are produced to the same standards as domestic food - if we choose to.

[aggi]

I didn't compare EU standards with the USA - only with the UK. Specifically, apart from the foie gras, Eastern Europe has much lower standards on care of pigs, and Spain (someone else raised this) has appalling standards on feeding animals on antibiotics. At present we can enforce welfare standards on our own farmers but can't stop the imports coming in from EU countries with lower standards. After 1st January, we will be able to require that all imports are produced to the same standards as domestic food - if we choose to.

From this "it'll drop more with a trade deal with the EU than it would with the USA. " I assumed you were comparing the EU to the USA.

[dsr]

From this "it'll drop more with a trade deal with the EU than it would with the USA. " I assumed you were comparing the EU to the USA.

No, I was referring more to the quantity of food that would be imported rather than the details of the relative welfare rules. Sorry for the confusion.

[aggi]

No, I was referring more to the quantity of food that would be imported rather than the details of the relative welfare rules. Sorry for the confusion.

Fair enough. I think in general the US standards are rarely better than the EU (the pigs you referred to are the same for the EU and US, the EU is introducing new rules on antibiotics but the US hasn't, etc). I suspect the quantity may be pretty similar (the EU is about the same size as the US) but who knows.

[tiger76]

EU open to two-year Brexit extension, says Michel Barnierhttps://uk.yahoo.com/news/eu-open-two-b ... 8201.html

A lifeline being thrown to the UK government to see sense,sadly doesn't look like they'll take it they're still hell bent on leaving by the end of 2020 come what may.

[dsr]

Strangely, the government is still not convinced of the sense of having a huge balance of payments deficit and allowing the EU to set the UK's rules. I know it's an article of faith with the pro-EU faction that tariffs on our imports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, while tariffs on our exports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, but it's never really been explained why.

[aggi]

Strangely, the government is still not convinced of the sense of having a huge balance of payments deficit and allowing the EU to set the UK's rules. I know it's an article of faith with the pro-EU faction that tariffs on our imports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, while tariffs on our exports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, but it's never really been explained why.

Well this is what I said last time you asked that:

Obviously as a lot of people know (but a lot try to obfuscate) the big issue with trading with the EU on WTO isn't the tariffs, it's the non-monetary obstacles. The delays of adding in customs checks, diverging regulations, issues around whether UK qualifications and licences will be valid, impacts on seasonal labour, etc

A large part of our economy is set up to take advantage of the above benefits, moving to WTO loses a lot of those benefits.

We're not going to get the same benefits with somewhere like the US, it's too geographically remote and that integration took decades.

I know you like to pretend that the whole of the deal is just about tariffs but that is only a small element of it.

[martin_p]

Strangely, the government is still not convinced of the sense of having a huge balance of payments deficit and allowing the EU to set the UK's rules. I know it's an article of faith with the pro-EU faction that tariffs on our imports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, while tariffs on our exports are bad for Britain and good for the EU, but it's never really been explained why.

Let’s not forget, this is the man that believed there’d be no physical checks on agri and food goods entering NI. Perhaps you need to rethink the things you think you know.

[dsr]

Let’s not forget, this is the man that believed there’d be no physical checks on agri and food goods entering NI. Perhaps you need to rethink the things you think you know.

I believed there would be no physical checks on goods crossing the border from the Republic to Northern Ireland. I still do. I don't recall saying there would be no physical checks at all, and I don't recall saying there would be no checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea. Perhaps you could repost something to refresh my memory.

[martin_p]

I believed there would be no physical checks on goods crossing the border from the Republic to Northern Ireland. I still do. I don't recall saying there would be no physical checks at all, and I don't recall saying there would be no checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea. Perhaps you could repost something to refresh my memory.

I’m not trawling through the whole thread, but there was a long discussion on checks triggered by a tweet by Yvette Cooper where some government official (or someone relating to the government) had put out a statement on checks between the mainland and NI. Both you and KateR interpreted it differently arguing that they were just paper checks and that didn’t really count as you only considered physical checks to be checks.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nissan to close its spanish plant and make Sunderland the centre of its European operation!

Now what were we told by the lying europhiles!?

Why would nissan remain in the uk if we were to leave the EU they screeched!

And lo and behold the lie has been shown for being exactly that.

Then again , planes wont fly, the housing and stock market would crash, we'd run out of water and food, there'd be a "brexidus", unemployment would rocket.

So the lie that Nissan would shut Sunderland if we had the temerity to vote "leave" was just one of a long line of lies that , thankfully, the majority of voters saw through.
Yet, amusingly there's still a dwindling rump of clinging europhile zealots, who desperately want to believe the lie that the UK cannot be a successful global, outward looking independent country!

I know! Weird isn't it!?

Stay safe and keep well, one and all

[Spijed]

Yet, amusingly there's still a dwindling rump of clinging europhile zealots, who desperately want to believe the lie that the UK cannot be a successful global, outward looking independent country!

Considering there is not a single doctor or scientist outside of the UK that thinks we have handled the current crisis well it's fairly obvious we are going to struggle in the coming months and years ahead, outside of the EU.

[Quickenthetempo]

Considering there is not a single doctor or scientist outside of the UK that thinks we have handled the current crisis well it's fairly obvious we are going to struggle in the coming months and years ahead, outside of the EU.

Have you asked every single one?

[dsr]

I’m not trawling through the whole thread, but there was a long discussion on checks triggered by a tweet by Yvette Cooper where some government official (or someone relating to the government) had put out a statement on checks between the mainland and NI. Both you and KateR interpreted it differently arguing that they were just paper checks and that didn’t really count as you only considered physical checks to be checks.

I remember that one. Lancaster's view was that having to fill in a form to import goods into Northern Ireland constituted a check on goods and therefore Boris Johnson was lying when he said there wouldn't be any checks. I don't think he ever got his head round the idea that you have to fill in forms now to export goods to Northern Ireland, and in fact VAT registered companies have to fill in forms every time they sell anything at all to anyone.

The point wasn't so much whether having to fill in an import document was a check or not, but whether it was covered by Johnson's statements that there would be no checks at the Northern Ireland land border.

[dsr]

Considering there is not a single doctor or scientist outside of the UK that thinks we have handled the current crisis well it's fairly obvious we are going to struggle in the coming months and years ahead, outside of the EU.

As opposed to the doctors or scientists that think the EU has handled it well?

[martin_p]

I remember that one. Lancaster's view was that having to fill in a form to import goods into Northern Ireland constituted a check on goods and therefore Boris Johnson was lying when he said there wouldn't be any checks. I don't think he ever got his head round the idea that you have to fill in forms now to export goods to Northern Ireland, and in fact VAT registered companies have to fill in forms every time they sell anything at all to anyone.

The point wasn't so much whether having to fill in an import document was a check or not, but whether it was covered by Johnson's statements that there would be no checks at the Northern Ireland land border.

Which we now know isn’t true of course.

[dsr]

Which we now know isn’t true of course.

That's something else I haven't seen. All the recent news I have seen was about customs posts on the Irish Sea. Got a link?

[Spijed]

Have you asked every single one?

I'm slowly working through my list of emails!

[martin_p]

That's something else I haven't seen. All the recent news I have seen was about customs posts on the Irish Sea. Got a link?

But that’s what Johnson was claiming wouldn’t happen!

[dsr]

But that’s what Johnson was claiming wouldn’t happen!

But it's not what I was claiming wouldn't happen. Glad we've sorted that one out.

[martin_p]

But it's not what I was claiming wouldn't happen. Glad we've sorted that one out.

It’s odd that you whole argument was in response to Yvette Cooper claiming it would then isn’t it. But as I said I can’t be bothered to trawl back over thousands of posts, so have it your own way.

Besides the agreement to leave NI in the customs union after withdrawal just moved the border from between the Republic and NI to between NI and the rest of GB. So the physical checks we know will have to happen between NI and GB would have had to have happened between the Republic and NI, so it’s the same thing.

[dsr]

It’s odd that you whole argument was in response to Yvette Cooper claiming it would then isn’t it. But as I said I can’t be bothered to trawl back over thousands of posts, so have it your own way.

Besides the agreement to leave NI in the customs union after withdrawal just moved the border from between the Republic and NI to between NI and the rest of GB. So the physical checks we know will have to happen between NI and GB would have had to have happened between the Republic and NI, so it’s the same thing.

Not really. Physical checks on the ferry or at the ports will be a lot less intrusive than physical checks on every road that crosses the border.

[martin_p]

Not really. Physical checks on the ferry or at the ports will be a lot less intrusive than physical checks on every road that crosses the border.

It was the need for physical checks you were disputing the need for, not how intrusive they’d be.

[dsr]

It was the need for physical checks you were disputing the need for, not how intrusive they’d be.

No, it was the need for a hard border on the land border between RoI and NI. I did not dispute that physical checks will be made on goods, usually in cases where Customs already has grounds for suspicion, but it was and is my view that with the help of the paper trail and even the VAT system of Making Tax Digital, there will be no need for border posts at the border.

[martin_p]

No, it was the need for a hard border on the land border between RoI and NI. I did not dispute that physical checks will be made on goods, usually in cases where Customs already has grounds for suspicion, but it was and is my view that with the help of the paper trail and even the VAT system of Making Tax Digital, there will be no need for border posts at the border.

But they’ll be building customs posts at the airports and ports between the UK and NI so that technology clearly isn’t there when needed.

[aggi]

Here you go, knock yourselves out
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36513&start=20100#p1127783

[RingoMcCartney]

Considering there is not a single doctor or scientist outside of the UK that thinks we have handled the current crisis well it's fairly obvious we are going to struggle in the coming months and years ahead, outside of the EU.

Good effort! You've tried to get away with using the government's ongoing handling of an unprecedented global pandemic, and apply it to our future economic fortunes!

I like the attempt at comparing apples with bricks. Failed miserably like!

Anyway good news about Sunderland becoming Nissan's European production centre. Once again showing Project Fear was really Project BS!

It's almost as if a global manufacturing company has more faith in this country's future economic prospects, than you and your "doctors and scientists" isn't it!

Reasons to be cheerful

[Spijed]

Good effort! You've tried to get away with using the government's ongoing handling of an unprecedented global pandemic, and apply it to our future economic fortunes!

I like the attempt at comparing apples with bricks. Failed miserably like!

Anyway good news about Sunderland becoming Nissan's European production centre. Once again showing Project Fear was really Project BS!

It's almost as if a global manufacturing company has more faith in this country's future economic prospects, than you and your "doctors and scientists" isn't it!

Reasons to be cheerful

btw, it wasn't an unprecedented global pandemic. We saw what what happening in Italy.

And didn't absolutely nothing!

[RingoMcCartney]

btw, it wasn't an unprecedented global pandemic. We saw what what happening in Italy.

And didn't absolutely nothing!

I think your understanding of "unprecedented" is as much of a work in progress as your use of supplying doctors and medical scientists for their opinion's on the UKs future economic fortunes!

Plus, is you describe the government paying the wages of 8.5 million workers as "nothing". You may want to brush up on that too.

God loves a tryer.

[martin_p]

I think your understanding of "unprecedented" is as much of a work in progress as your use of supplying doctors and medical scientists for their opinion's on the UKs future economic fortunes!

So there haven’t been global pandemics before?

[RingoMcCartney]

So there haven’t been global pandemics before?

If you want to live in a parallel universe Marty it's fine by me.

Great news for the workers of Sunderland who ignored the lies if the establishment, political class and the London centric media and showed they knew what was best for themselves and voted Leave though!

Their local plant now the European manufacturing centre for Nissan.

Who'd have thought it eh!?

Not you !!!

[martin_p]

If you want to live in a parallel universe Marty it's fine by me.

I suspected you didn’t know, thanks for confirming.

[RingoMcCartney]

I suspected you didn’t know, thanks for confirming.

Sunderland 1. Marty 0

[Spijed]

I think your understanding of "unprecedented" is as much of a work in progress as your use of supplying doctors and medical scientists for their opinion's on the UKs future economic fortunes!

Plus, is you describe the government paying the wages of 8.5 million workers as "nothing". You may want to brush up on that too.

God loves a tryer.

What about dealing with the EU regarding medicines, knowledge, healthcare post Brexit?

All part of our economy. Do you think Britain can go it alone?

[martin_p]

Sunderland 1. Marty 0

You probably think unprecedented means counties without presidents.

[dsr]

So there haven’t been global pandemics before?

"unprecedented" isn't a synonym for "first". An unprecedented global pandemic means there has never been a global pandemic like this one - not that there has never been one at all.

[martin_p]

"unprecedented" isn't a synonym for "first". An unprecedented global pandemic means there has never been a global pandemic like this one - not that there has never been one at all.

Yes I know. What makes this massively different from say Spanish Flu?

[RingoMcCartney]

What about dealing with the EU regarding medicines, knowledge, healthcare post Brexit?

All part of our economy. Do you think Britain can go it alone?

We are leaving the European Union.

We are not leaving Europe.

[dsr]

Yes I know. What makes this massively different from say Spanish Flu?

Spanish flu didn't shut down the economy, it disproportionately affected the young, it was in a time when rapid movement from place to place much less common, they didn't have airliners, they didn't have antibiotics, they didn't have ventilators, most people were a lot poorer and had less to eat and had less body fat in reserve, they had only just finished a massive war, they didn't have the scientific knowledge of what if anything they could do, technological communication was not as easy, there was no internet, there was no TV or radio, they couldn't attempt to find a vaccine ...

Is that enough?

[RingoMcCartney]

Spanish flu didn't shut down the economy, it disproportionately affected the young, it was in a time when rapid movement from place to place much less common, they didn't have airliners, they didn't have antibiotics, they didn't have ventilators, most people were a lot poorer and had less to eat and had less body fat in reserve, they had only just finished a massive war, they didn't have the scientific knowledge of what if anything they could do, technological communication was not as easy, there was no internet, there was no TV or radio, they couldn't attempt to find a vaccine ...

Is that enough?

You have to admire Marty.

He's managed to turn obstinacy into an art form.