Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[martin_p]

Still trying to kid yourself that theres a world of difference between "would" and "could" just like ThefamilyCat. Making reasonable discussion indistinguishable from sheer desperation!



So you more than happy to accept Nissan's current threat of closing the plant in the future if theres no trade deal!?

But you're still refusing to accept they've got previous for threatening closure in the past!?


Inconveniently for you. With the exact science , that is hindsight. The latter has been proven, to have been the Project Fear lie that you and the likes of the Family cat fell for. And the people of Sunderland were wise to ignore.

Where as with the former. Pessimism mongers and Project Fear Part 2 disciples like you. Are just only too happy to repeat the same mantra, hoping for a different outcome this time.

And we all know what doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, is the definition of, dont we Marty!?

Sleep well.

Wow, just wow. I knew you struggled with the English language, but wow!

[TVC15]

Spain have only counted officially tested coronavirus deaths and a lot of care home deaths were not tested even when coronavirus was suspected.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ath-tolls/

And read what I said more closely. I said that if the UK had counted the same way as Spain we would be below the average death rate. You read it the wrong way round, as if I had said that if Spain counted the same as the UK we would be below the EU average death rate. Read it again.

No, I don't think the excess deaths in the UK are pure coincidence. Most of the excess deaths are due to coronavirus. Up to week end 22nd May this year, the total deaths is 286,779, the expected (5 year average) is 235,293, the difference is 51,486. The official coronavirus death tally, 43,694. So that's 7,792 "unexplained" excess deaths. Some of which may be coronavirus, but then again some of the official coronavirus deaths may be wrongly diagnosed. Some of the excess deaths may be due to lockdown - it's very easy to see that an old person living a pretty miserable life in a nursing home might just give up wanting to live when his/her family stop coming to visit. And of course there is random variation - in the last 4 months of last year, for example, deaths were higher than average by 6,357. No coronavirus factor there, just normal random variation.

I did not read it the wrong way - I knew exactly what you were saying.
Your point one was a strange one to make as you were basically saying that if the UK under reported in the way you believe Spain are under reporting we would be below the EU average.
If the UK had suffered significantly less deaths than they have then they might also be under the EU average too !!

I don’t see a report from a newspaper as factual evidence either....but that’s really not the point. I have little knowledge of how Spain has dealt with the crisis or why they would under report.
I do have some knowledge of the UK though and how this government has tried to manipulate statistics throughout the crisis so personally I would not feel comfortable in thinking the UK is being more accurate / honest than the likes of Spain or other countries.
But the main point is whatever way you look at it the UK is either leading or near to the top of whatever Covid deaths table you care to choose....as is Spain.

[martin_p]

Spain have only counted officially tested coronavirus deaths and a lot of care home deaths were not tested even when coronavirus was suspected.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... ath-tolls/

And read what I said more closely. I said that if the UK had counted the same way as Spain we would be below the average death rate. You read it the wrong way round, as if I had said that if Spain counted the same as the UK we would be below the EU average death rate. Read it again.

No, I don't think the excess deaths in the UK are pure coincidence. Most of the excess deaths are due to coronavirus. Up to week end 22nd May this year, the total deaths is 286,779, the expected (5 year average) is 235,293, the difference is 51,486. The official coronavirus death tally, 43,694. So that's 7,792 "unexplained" excess deaths. Some of which may be coronavirus, but then again some of the official coronavirus deaths may be wrongly diagnosed. Some of the excess deaths may be due to lockdown - it's very easy to see that an old person living a pretty miserable life in a nursing home might just give up wanting to live when his/her family stop coming to visit. And of course there is random variation - in the last 4 months of last year, for example, deaths were higher than average by 6,357. No coronavirus factor there, just normal random variation.

But the U.K. daily figures only include cases that have tested positive as well, so the same as Spain. The U.K. figure is likely to hit 40k today or tomorrow. It’s the ONS figures that include all deaths with COVID on the death certificate.

[dsr]

But the U.K. daily figures only include cases that have tested positive as well, so the same as Spain. The U.K. figure is likely to hit 40k today or tomorrow. It’s the ONS figures that include all deaths with COVID on the death certificate.

That is why I quoted the ONS figures.

[aggi]

Question - how do you get a flock of resentment fuelled sore losers to obsess about the word "could" ?

Answer - by letting them convince themselves that if they do, the Project Fear lies , about the closure of a car plant , that the gullible schmucks fell for, never actually happened !!

I don't think you realise how entertaining this is for people. It's a bit like watching those parkour fail videos, you know you should stop watching these people hurling themselves headfirst into solid objects but you're intrigued to see what creative way they're going to damage themselves next.

[aggi]

We've currently got more Covid deaths in the last 24 hours than the rest of the EU countries put together. That's 27 other countries. Repeat that's 27 other countries. We have around 66 million in our population. Those 27 countries have around 450 million. Let that sink in.

Please please please, EU, let us back in. Don't leave us in the hands of these incompetent, negligent liars.

Bear in mind as well that we're somewhat behind a lot of other EU countries. Comparing us to the figures from a few weeks ago for them may give a better picture.

(Of course there is the argument that this gave us a huge advantage as we could see what was/wasn't working in other countries and adjust our approach to minimise deaths.)

[martin_p]

That is why I quoted the ONS figures.

But we’re on 40k counting the same way that Spain does, I.e. only counting the deaths with a positive Covid test, which is the highest total in Europe. So how would we be ‘average’ if we counted the same way that Spain does (which in terms of the figures reported at the daily press conference we do)?

[Mala591]

A significant contributory reason for the high UK figures is due to England being overpopulated and far too many people living in densely packed urban areas. Maybe our farmers should give up some of their wasted land (grazing sheep) to allow a more even population spread?

[claretandy]

But the U.K. daily figures only include cases that have tested positive as well, so the same as Spain. The U.K. figure is likely to hit 40k today or tomorrow. It’s the ONS figures that include all deaths with COVID on the death certificate.

No they don't, i know someone who works in a care home and covid was put on 3 death certificates without being tested.

[Tall Paul]

No they don't, i know someone who works in a care home and covid was put on 3 death certificates without being tested.

So are the government lying to us when they state the number of deaths of people who have tested positive for coronavirus at the daily briefings?

[fatboy47]

Bear in mind as well that we're somewhat behind a lot of other EU countries. Comparing us to the figures from a few weeks ago for them may give a better picture.

(Of course there is the argument that this gave us a huge advantage as we could see what was/wasn't working in other countries and adjust our approach to minimise deaths.)

Guess its true that we're behind most of europe aggi, but it looks like we're a whole lot further behind than we were on the 23rd of march.

[martin_p]

No they don't, i know someone who works in a care home and covid was put on 3 death certificates without being tested.

Yes, and that will be included in the higher ONS figures published every week. But the daily figures only include deaths that have been tested.

[randomclaret2]

A significant contributory reason for the high UK figures is due to England being overpopulated and far too many people living in densely packed urban areas. Maybe our farmers should give up some of their wasted land (grazing sheep) to allow a more even population spread?

What do you think was there before the densely packed urban areas were built ?

[AndrewJB]

Looks like chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef is on our menus post US trade deal. That’s what taking back control looks like.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 48431.html

[martin_p]

Looks like chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef is on our menus post US trade deal. That’s what taking back control looks like.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 48431.html

This can’t be true, dsr assured is we wouldn’t have to lower our food/animal welfare standards.

[dsr]

Looks like chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef is on our menus post US trade deal. That’s what taking back control looks like.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 48431.html

I thought you were in favour of letting food products in from EU countries with lower standards? Haven't you been angling for the current EU rules to continue?

https://api.worldanimalprotection.org/

According to this map, the only countries that match the UK for animal welfare are Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark.

Spain, France, Italy, Poland and Germany are one step below, and one step below that are the USA, Australia, Brazil, and (the only other Eastern European country tested) Romania. I suspect the rest of Eastern Europe, when they get round to assessing them, are likely to be on the same scale as the USA.

So nothing new in principle. Especially as the US stuff will be subject to tariffs, unlike the produce you want to import.

[martin_p]

I thought you were in favour of letting food products in from EU countries with lower standards? Haven't you been angling for the current EU rules to continue?

https://api.worldanimalprotection.org/

According to this map, the only countries that match the UK for animal welfare are Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark.

Spain, France, Italy, Poland and Germany are one step below, and one step below that are the USA, Australia, Brazil, and (the only other Eastern European country tested) Romania. I suspect the rest of Eastern Europe, when they get round to assessing them, are likely to be on the same scale as the USA.

So nothing new in principle. Especially as the US stuff will be subject to tariffs, unlike the produce you want to import.

So in summary, US standards are lower than EU standards.

[AndrewJB]

I thought you were in favour of letting food products in from EU countries with lower standards? Haven't you been angling for the current EU rules to continue?

https://api.worldanimalprotection.org/

According to this map, the only countries that match the UK for animal welfare are Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark.

Spain, France, Italy, Poland and Germany are one step below, and one step below that are the USA, Australia, Brazil, and (the only other Eastern European country tested) Romania. I suspect the rest of Eastern Europe, when they get round to assessing them, are likely to be on the same scale as the USA.

So nothing new in principle. Especially as the US stuff will be subject to tariffs, unlike the produce you want to import.

https://fullfact.org/europe/usa-trade-food-standards/

I was talking about food standards.

[dsr]

So in summary, US standards are lower than EU standards.

The EU doesn't have standards. Individual countries have standards, and the USA is probably on a par with Eastern Europe but the assessment on that side is incomplete.

At present we have no way of stopping or slowing down Romanian food products. You want that to continue. So I don't see why you would be upset about US food standards.

[dsr]

https://fullfact.org/europe/usa-trade-food-standards/

I was talking about food standards.

Fair point. Perhaps we'll do something about the Spanish antibiotic-stuffed meat once we have taken back the power. Though I presume you would be opposed to that as well?

[AndrewJB]

The EU doesn't have standards. Individual countries have standards, and the USA is probably on a par with Eastern Europe but the assessment on that side is incomplete.

At present we have no way of stopping or slowing down Romanian food products. You want that to continue. So I don't see why you would be upset about US food standards.

https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/general_food_law_en

Would this not be EU food standards? “From farm to fork...”

I described before how the US seek level playing fields when talking trade deals, and that means conforming to their standards. I lived in Canada while the FTA and NAFTA negotiations took place and Canada had to make a lot of concessions. It still didn’t stop Bush Snr from slapping tariffs on Canadian lumber a few years later.

If Britain wants to get a good trade deal with the US, they should do it as part of the EU. Vastly stronger position.

[aggi]

Fair point. Perhaps we'll do something about the Spanish antibiotic-stuffed meat once we have taken back the power. Though I presume you would be opposed to that as well?

As I said to you last time you mentioned this, the EU has already done something about that and it will be coming into force in a couple of years.

[RingoMcCartney]

It was predicetd that Ringo would respond to but would fail to admit that he made something up.

As predicted, Thefamilycat would avoid responding to a straight forward question. A quick glance back up this thread proves it.

I’ve said all along that Nissan said the plant could close due to Brexit.

Do you agree with Marty that the Nissan plant was threatened with closure due to brexit?

[RingoMcCartney]

Hahahaha. I missed this little nugget.

No, no, no, no, no. Your example provides two different opinions before and after the event: Prior to the event "we'll (or we will)" and "we could have". If the opinon remained the same, the second example is "we would have".

Two different words. Two different meanings. Nothing to do with tense.

And if your defection from the Brexit Party is anything to go by, you'll start supporting City if we are losing at half time. Glory hunter.

Question - how do you get a flock of resentment fuelled sore losers to obsess about the word "could" ?

Answer - by letting them convince themselves that if they do, the Project Fear lies , about the closure of a car plant , that the gullible schmucks fell for, never actually happened !!

[RingoMcCartney]

I don't often post on threads like this, but couldn't resist relating something that happened to me at school.
(It may help Ringo understand)
I attended a Grammar school and had the dubious privilege of been taught English by the Headmaster, who was old-school. I remember one day being pretty nervous about asking to go to the toilet. Eventually with things getting a bit desperate, I finally raised my hand and said,
"Please Sir, "can" I go to the toilet?"
Much to my surprise and relief he immediately said "Yes, of course."
As I got up to leave the room, he immediately instructed me to sit down, gave me a pretty humiliating lecture on grammar, and put me in detention to learn the difference. No one ever made that mistake again.
Having said that, he then said. "Now, would you like to rephrase the question and ask me again?", - permission was granted.

And another one!!

You guys!

[TheFamilyCat]

As predicted, Thefamilycat would avoid responding to a straight forward question. A quick glance back up this thread proves it.




Do you agree with Marty that the Nissan plant was threatened with closure due to brexit?

I did answer your question and you started going on about dancing. Maybe you've forgotten, but I'll answer it again if you wish.

There were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant but as you, oh wise one keep telling us, they were "project fear lies" I will have to conclude that no, there was no actual threat.

Now let's not forget how we started on this road to enlightenment: you claimed that the "Nissan plant would close if we left the EU" and as yet you have failed to provide any evidence that anybody, other than you, ever made that claim.

[nil_desperandum]

And another one!!

You guys!

Can I ask you why you had an issue with my post?
Yes I can, but I'm not going to, as you'll only reply again, and this thread is getting very tedious.

[RingoMcCartney]

I did answer your question and you started going on about dancing. Maybe you've forgotten, but I'll answer it again if you wish.

There were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant but as you, oh wise one keep telling us, they were "project fear lies" I will have to conclude that no, there was no actual threat.

Now let's not forget how we started on this road to enlightenment: you claimed that the "Nissan plant would close if we left the EU" and as yet you have failed to provide any evidence that anybody, other than you, ever made that claim.

So you're conceding that there "were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant"

But I thought I was "the only one claiming it!"

Mystic McCartney predicts a repeat of the ridiculous obsession with the difference between the word "would" . As if somehow, this nullifies the fact that Project Fear made political capital out of the threat of closure and the majority of voters , but more importantly, the good people of Sunderland chose to ignore it.

[martin_p]

So you're conceding that there "were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant"

But I thought I was "the only one claiming it!"

Mystic McCartney predicts a repeat of the ridiculous obsession with the difference between the word "would" . As if somehow, this nullifies the fact that Project Fear made political capital out of the threat of closure and the majority of voters , but more importantly, the good people of Sunderland chose to ignore it.

As if comprehension of the English language would change anything!

[tiger76]

Forgive me for actually bringing some reality to this thread, but it's not looking promising in the negotiations.https://uk.yahoo.com/news/happens-next- ... 0934.html

[RingoMcCartney]

Can I ask you why you had an issue with my post?
Yes I can, but I'm not going to, as you'll only reply again, and this thread is getting very tedious.

Because you appear to be another one, happy to join in indulge in a distracting sideshow over a couple of words. Rather simply concede what the whole country knew and still knows regards the Sunderland nissan plant.

Which is the Remain side / project fear to attempted to persuade the electorate that should the country vote Leave the plant would close.

The majority ignored the lie and Sunderland is set to be Nissan's European HQ.

[martin_p]

Because you appear to be another one, happy to join in indulge in a distracting sideshow over a couple of words. Rather simply concede what the whole country knew and still knows regards the Sunderland nissan plant.

Which is the Remain side / project fear to attempted to persuade the electorate that should the country vote Leave the plant would close.

The majority ignored the lie and Sunderland is set to be Nissan's European HQ.

We must be back to ‘it’s Wrongo’s opinion so he doesn’t need evidence’ soon.

[RingoMcCartney]

We must be back to ‘it’s Wrongo’s opinion so he doesn’t need evidence’ soon.

I’ve said all along that Nissan said the plant could close due to Brexit.

[martin_p]

As if comprehension of the English language would change anything!

[aggi]

You can't beat Ringo crowing over the fact that the thing that only he predicted would happen hasn't happened.

He's defeated some great straw mans in the past.

[TheFamilyCat]

Because you appear to be another one, happy to join in indulge in a distracting sideshow over a couple of words. Rather simply concede what the whole country knew and still knows regards the Sunderland nissan plant.

Which is the Remain side / project fear to attempted to persuade the electorate that should the country vote Leave the plant would close.

The majority ignored the lie and Sunderland is set to be Nissan's European HQ.

Any evidence to support that?

[TheFamilyCat]

So you're conceding that there "were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant"

But I thought I was "the only one claiming it!"

Mystic McCartney predicts a repeat of the ridiculous obsession with the difference between the word "would" . As if somehow, this nullifies the fact that Project Fear made political capital out of the threat of closure and the majority of voters , but more importantly, the good people of Sunderland chose to ignore it.

Nah, you've got so far through life without basic comprehension skills so you're not likely start learning them now.

It's been fun watching you desperately trying to avoid having to admit you made something up but it's time to move on.

We'll never know whether you really are so muttonheaded that you genuinely thought you were right but I have my suspicions.

[RingoMcCartney]

Why was the future of the Nissan plant, in the run up to, and in the immediate aftermath of the referendum such a contentious issue Marty?

[RingoMcCartney]

Nah, you've got so far through life without basic comprehension skills so you're not likely start learning them now.

It's been fun watching you desperately trying to avoid having to admit you made something up but it's time to move on.

We'll never know whether you really are so muttonheaded that you genuinely thought you were right but I have my suspicions.

As predicted the ridiculous obsession with the difference between the certain words! Mystic McCartney strikes again!

There were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant but as you, oh wise one keep telling us, they were "project fear lies" I will have to conclude that no, there was no actual threat.

So you're finally agreeing with me! That the plant was said to be threatened with closure and all those brexiteers who ignored those "reports" (project fear / vote remain) , like the people of Sunderland, were wise to do so?

[TheFamilyCat]

As predicted the ridiculous obsession with the difference between the certain words! Mystic McCartney strikes again!




So you're finally agreeing with me! That the plant was said to be threatened with closure and all those brexiteers who ignored those "reports" (project fear / vote remain) , like the people of Sunderland, were wise to do so?

Only in your tiny, tiny mind.

[RingoMcCartney]

Only in your tiny, tiny mind.

Only in your tiny mind did you forget what I said over a week ago!!

Thu May 28, 2020 1:33 pm

Nissan to close its spanish plant and make Sunderland the centre of its European operation!

Now what were we told by the lying europhiles!?

Why would nissan remain in the uk if we were to leave the EU they screeched!

And lo and behold the lie has been shown for being exactly that.


So the lie that Nissan would shut Sunderland if we had the temerity to vote "leave" was just one of a long line of lies that , thankfully, the majority of voters saw through.

Thu May 28, 2020 10:16 pm

Great news for the workers of Sunderland who ignored the lies if the establishment, political class and the London centric media and showed they knew what was best for themselves and voted Leave though!

Their local plant now the European manufacturing centre for Nissan.

Who'd have thought it eh!?

Not you !!!

I said all along that the threat of closure was only a threat, but a threat seized upon by Project Fear, which was ignored by the majority. But you and Marty in a desperate attempt to deny that was the case, went down a week long rabbit hole. Aided and abetted by your flock of resentment fuelled remoaner chums. Indulging in a pedantry fest of arguing the toss as to whether it said the plant "would" or "could" close down. !!!

This is you finally , after over a week, agreeing with me!

There were reports of a threat of closure of the Nissan plant but as you, oh wise one keep telling us, they were "project fear lies" I will have to conclude that no, there was no actual threat.

[TheFamilyCat]

It's over Ringo, I've moved on. Sorry.

[RingoMcCartney]

You can't beat Ringo crowing over the fact that the thing that only he predicted would happen hasn't happened.

He's defeated some great straw mans in the past.

You can beat the fact that aggi got sucked into to pedantry fest of whether it "could" or "would" close. Taking his eye off the ball completely and missing the point I made over a week ago.

Which was it wasnt Vote Leave and brexiteers that believed the threat of closure. That was the lie that Project Fear's gullible remoaners believed, but wise brexiteers and Sunderland folk ignored!

It was utterly irrelevant whether it was said the plant "could" or "would" close. But it didn't stop you and Team Resentment wanting to somehow drill down on the idea that if was "could" close, as opposed to "would" close, the threat wasnt used by Project Fear. However it was used by what we now know was Project BS and soundly rejected by brexiteers.

You created the straw man of "could" or "would" aggi!

For over a week

[RingoMcCartney]

It's over Ringo, I've moved on. Sorry.

lol: lol: lol: lol:

I'm so glad you're "moving on" now your parents are returning back to work after being furloughed. This , over a week long , home schooling I've been doing for you hasn't been easy. And I have to say you've been quite insolent at times. I wont put you in detention as it's quite clear you've seen the error of your ways. But as a reminder not to challenge your superiors. I'm giving you a hundred lines to repeat.

I'll start you off ThefamilyCat.

"I must not take over a week to finally agree with Mr McCartney"

"I must not take over a week to finally agree with Mr McCartney"

Dismissed!

[TheFamilyCat]

We'll never agree and that is why I need to move on. Let me go Ringo, you'll get over me.

[RingoMcCartney]

We'll never agree and that is why I need to move on. Let me go Ringo, you'll get over me.

Not purring now are you!!!?




Schooled and fooled ThefamilyCat! Schooled and fooled!!!

[evensteadiereddie]

See, no autistic tendencies whatsoever !

Astonishing behaviour. Harmless enough, laughable even but even so, frickin' hell.

[RingoMcCartney]

See, no autistic tendencies whatsoever !

Astonishing behaviour. Harmless enough, laughable even but even so, frickin' hell.

Oh hello our very own "Verbal Guerilla Warrior" has found time to pull himself away from the his multiple user antics on another clubs message board!

Let me tell you Doctor Diagnose , this morning, after over a week long of watching your dwindling rump of messageboard remoaners get yourselves into a right old "could" or "would " straw man, tizzy. Culminating in meeting yourselves coming back, and inadvertently agreeing with what I said right at the beginning. It's me that's laughing buggerlugs!

[RingoMcCartney]

IPEWM"P"INHR

[evensteadiereddie]

No multiple posting any more, Eliza - sorry Wrongo - no need, Bolton are as ****** up and useless as you are. Great fun while it lasted and, as a Claret, posting on there was much more preferable to, say, tossing off over Brexit for three years, as you - in whatever guise - seem to be obsessed with.

If you seriously think your last few posts are those of a reasonable person of quite normal judgement and not those of a complete prick, fair enough.