Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

Unusually BOT, your contribution is actually welcomed before Biggles goes all Waffen-SS on us all.

[Burnley Ace]

that's quite an arrogant statement seeing as you know nothing about me. i am sure those who know you laugh at you all the time. dad

Nah it’s not arrogant I’m fairly confident that I have your measure. Now off to bed you’ve been shown up enough tonight.

[Lancasterclaret]

Jesus Christ

Same to you Jakub

You don't have the right to tell us what they think or what they would have done.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

unite europe? what kind of moron are you? the war in europe was against germany/nazis [plus to a much lesser extent their pals the italians/fascists]. you've had too much cheap french plonk by the sounds of it.

And who fought against them?

Yep, the Brits, The French, The Poles, The Czechs, The Dutch, The Danish, The Norwegians - In other words, a UNITED Europe.

[biggles]

Another historical error I'm afraid.
I'll help you with this one. Germany didn't start WW1, in fact it was 4 days old when they declared war on Russia, and 6 days old before it declared war on France. (This led to the UK declaring war as an ally of France).
In the days leading up to Germany joining the war, incidentally, the Germans tried to persuade the Russians to demobilise, and the French to declare neutrality in the event of a Russo / German War, but their diplomacy failed.

wrong. germany was ready for war. they just didn't want russia as an enemy. but, as you say, they declared war on Russia. why? and then they declared war on France. i can now see why you think they are the innocent party in that.

as sir john of cleese put it [please permit me to paraphrase here] , 'you started it, you invaded poland'

[Jakubclaret]

Jesus Christ

Same to you Jakub

You don't have the right to tell us what they think or what they would have done.

No I don’t but by the same token it’s not fair for some to say that a union would be liked & favoured, at the time no love was lost.

[Lancasterclaret]

You need to read up on your history about WWI Biggles.

As its the era that your namesake is from I thought you'd know a bit more about it.

[Bin Ont Turf]

And who fought against them?

Yep, the Brits, The French, The Poles, The Czechs, The Dutch, The Danish, The Norwegians - In other words, a UNITED Europe.

Are you going to tell him Lancaster? Or should I do it?

[Jakubclaret]

wrong. germany was ready for war. they just didn't want russia as an enemy. but, as you say, they declared war on Russia. why? and then they declared war on France. i can now see why you think they are the innocent party in that.

as sir john of cleese put it [please permit me to paraphrase here] , 'you started it, you invaded poland'

Hitlers deranged drug addled mind was to conquer Europe, it’s just more subtle this time round 80 years on

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Harry Leslie Smith, David Meylan, Patrick Churchill and Field Marshal Lord Bramall all represented their country during the Second World War and each insists that the future prosperity of the UK is best served by Britain retaining its EU membership.

Patrick Churchill, a former Royal Marine Commando who fought at D-Day and who received Legion d’Honneur in 2004, says in the video that if Europe “breaks or if we are not in that union then countries will fall apart.

"The only solution is to bind together, hold together, there we find strength.”

Harry Leslie Smith, who served in the RAF, says: “At the age of eighteen I joined the RAF to do my bit for Britain.

"For me, Britain is stronger in Europe because it reflects the values my generation fought for in Europe during the Second World War.”

David Meylan, who served in the RAF and wrote to Britain Stronger In Europe to offer his support, says: “We sacrificed many, many men in both world wars and this was to establish a peaceful and prosperous union. We can’t sacrifice that now.”

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, former Chief of the Defence Staff, says: “We would be going backwards not forwards in what we set out to cure after the terrible tragedies of the Second World War.”

[biggles]

And who fought against them?

Yep, the Brits, The French, The Poles, The Czechs, The Dutch, The Danish, The Norwegians - In other words, a UNITED Europe.

the point is this. britain declared war on germany in 1939 due to germany invading poland. all those nations you mentioned above fought germany because germany invaded their countries. all credit to them but would they have done anything if germany hadn't invaded them? probably not, after all they're continental europeans not british. off the top of my head i think perhaps only britain stood against germany for the sake of other nations.

[nil_desperandum]

Our fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers fought in the trenches to simply stop hitler & the third reich taking over, .

Well there we have it. Conclusive evidence that Jakub just makes things up if he thinks it will support his point.
Fighting the Third Reich in the trenches FFS!
True Hitler was there somewhere but the Nazi Party hadn't even been thought of let alone a Third Reich established.

[TVC15]

a truly incisive observation. your mum must be so proud.

At ease goggles

[nil_desperandum]

the point is this. britain declared war on germany in 1939 due to germany invading poland. .

And ironically we didn't do a single thing throughout the war in defence of, or to liberate Poland. It was the Poles that helped us, and in no small way.

[Lancasterclaret]

Give me a chance BOT!

Claret-on-a-t-rex its the same to you as it is to biggles and jakub.

No one knows what they wanted (with some rare exceptions) and its best to just remember the sacrifice.

Course, its factually accurate to say stuff like this

- EU (and its predessors) are a big reason why they has been peace since 1945

- the only party in Germany that backs Brexit is the AfD (which are the modern day Nazis)

- Brexit is really popular with the fascists and populists in the EU

Stuff like that is fine!

[TVC15]

Boggles - you should be thanking the posters on this board. This might help you get to a D+.

[nil_desperandum]

...... would they have done anything if germany hadn't invaded them? probably not, after all they're continental europeans not british. off the top of my head i think perhaps only britain stood against germany for the sake of other nations.

Continental Europeans had spent the past 1000 years fighting each other, so yes they would. It's only since 1945 that there's been relative peace in Europe, for some reason.

[Jakubclaret]

Well there we have it. Conclusive evidence that Jakub just makes things up if he thinks it will support his point.
Fighting the Third Reich in the trenches FFS!
True Hitler was there somewhere but the Nazi Party hadn't even been thought of let alone a Third Reich established.

Normandy, Dunkirk, liberating France the western front. Hitler was the fuhrer, the head of the nazi party. I don’t get what I’m supposed to be making up?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

as sir john of cleese put it [not paraphrased at all] , “There were dreadful lies on the right about all the money that would come into the National Health Service”.

Corrected it for you.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

And ironically we didn't do a single thing throughout the war in defence of, or to liberate Poland. It was the Poles that helped us, and in no small way.

We actually shafted the Poles after the war but Biggles think they should all be kissing our arses...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[biggles]

And ironically we didn't do a single thing throughout the war in defence of, or to liberate Poland. It was the Poles that helped us, and in no small way.

and by what strange magic do you think we could have produced to simply wipe germany from the face of the earth and aid poland? there was a war on, fella. maybe you thought that those lovely germans would have apologised for being a bit naughty and let us just march to poland's aid. yes, the poles helped us, that's already been mentioned by the way, but why did they help us? go on, have a guess. i'll give you a clue; something to do with that fact that those nice germans, again, had just invaded their homeland. i'm going out on a limb here, and i confess i haven't actually asked any polish fighters why they did fight against germany, but maybe they didn't take kindly to the little fact that hitler invaded them.

[biggles]

Continental Europeans had spent the past 1000 years fighting each other, so yes they would. It's only since 1945 that there's been relative peace in Europe, for some reason.

maybe, just guessin, the germans had been dis-armed, yet again. the americans were fully involved in keeping the peace in europe. NATO was formed just about 4 years post ww2. what? you thought the peace in europe was due to the good nature of the european nations? most of them were on their knees after ww2 and us and our american allies helped rebuild europe. you might have forgotten that, understandably, seeing as the EU really would like it if we would all conveniently pretend it didn't happen.

[RingoMcCartney]

More Brexit lies!

Really!!!!!!?

It's taken directly from the extreme pro remain rag the new European!

A video has emerged of Jeremy Corbyn describing the EU as a “massive, great Frankenstein” and attacking the idea of second referendums.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5879503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[biggles]

We actually shafted the Poles after the war but Biggles think they should all be kissing our arses...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

what are you saying? that we should have gone to war with russia straight after ww2 in the forlorn hope of saving poland? reality, like brexit, might be unpalatable to some but sometimes bad things get in the way and prevent a multi-laterally wanted outcome. ie you can't always please everyone.

[nil_desperandum]

wrong. germany was ready for war. they just didn't want russia as an enemy. but, as you say, they declared war on Russia. why? and then they declared war on France. i can now see why you think they are the innocent party in that.

as sir john of cleese put it [please permit me to paraphrase here] , 'you started it, you invaded poland'

What I wrote was 100% historically correct.
How could Germany have started a war that every source says had begun 4 days earlier?
And I didn't suggest that they were an innocent party. Most of the European powers had been flexing their muscles for war for a good decade. It is pretty clear however that the Germans didn't want war with Britain. It was in fact the UK that declared war on Germany because Germany violated Belgian neutrality by crossing it to attack France.

[martin_p]

Biggles seems to be mixing up the wars. You do know there were two world wars in the 20th century?

I’m struggling to understand what any of this has to do with Brexit in 21st century.

[biggles]

Boggles - you should be thanking the posters on this board. This might help you get to a D+.

well that's Boggles and Goggles; any more? or can your tiny brain not manage to change another letter or two to make another really amusing name for me? i bet when you start school the nice teachers will help if you ask them nicely. the special school teachers are extra caring and helpful; according to Greenmile. i'm told he was a star pupil to begin with but sadly didn't get past reception level

[biggles]

Biggles seems to be mixing up the wars. You do know there were two world wars in the 20 century?

I’m struggling to understand what any of this has to do with Brexit in 21st century.

/
i admit to maybe making errors of a written kind re the two [was it?] world wars. care to elucidate for me? maybe you are thinking of someone else?

[nil_desperandum]

Normandy, Dunkirk, liberating France the western front. Hitler was the fuhrer, the head of the nazi party. I don’t get what I’m supposed to be making up?

Ok, maybe you aren't making it up. Maybe you've just got a very poor grasp of 20th century history.
WW1 (with its trench warfare) ended in 1918.
The Nazi Party was founded in 1920.
The Third Reich lasted from 1933 to 1945.
Normandy, Dunkirk etc were in the 1940s.

[Jakubclaret]

Biggles seems to be mixing up the wars. You do know there were two world wars in the 20 century?

I’m struggling to understand what any of this has to do with Brexit in 21st century.

Depends on reflection with past history, is it appropriate to remain within the EU after what has gone on despite time lapsing?
People don’t seem to trust Germany & the question is can you really blame them.

[summitclaret]

I think the presence of the USA in Germany for ages and the creation of NATO might have something to do with peace in Europe and nuclear weapons. However if you want to give all the credit to the EU thrn fine. They are just as likely to be the cause of war than prevent it with their top down one size fits all approaches.

[Jakubclaret]

Ok, maybe you aren't making it up. Maybe you've just got a very poor grasp of 20th century history.
WW1 (with its trench warfare) ended in 1918.
The Nazi Party was founded in 1920.
The Third Reich lasted from 1933 to 1945.
Normandy, Dunkirk etc were in the 1940s.

At no point did I mention WW1 please quote me if I have, I was posting regarding WW2, I think you’ve been getting mixed up.
I know my history & dates thank you.

[martin_p]

Depends on reflection with past history, is it appropriate to remain within the EU after what has gone on despite time lapsing?
People don’t seem to trust Germany & the question is can you really blame them.

Well yes, I can blame them. The war’s been over for nearly 75 years, beyond most people’s memory. The Napoleonic Wars were 200 years ago, should we not trust the French either?

[biggles]

What I wrote was 100% historically correct.
How could Germany have started a war that every source says had begun 4 days earlier?
And I didn't suggest that they were an innocent party. Most of the European powers had been flexing their muscles for war for a good decade. It is pretty clear however that the Germans didn't want war with Britain. It was in fact the UK that declared war on Germany because Germany violated Belgian neutrality by crossing it to attack France.

you really are ******* on your owns arguments, mate. germany engineered a situation where war was inevitable. you seem to be painting the UK as the baddies when you state that we declared war on germany. but if we did why did we have to do that? because, once again, germany invaded another country, this time belgium, to attack france. are you saying we were in the wrong to go to the aid of another european country? i just hope that we leave the buggers to fight their own battles in the future.

[dsr]

Nope, that was his dad.

So it was.

[RingoMcCartney]

It’s lke a remedial English lesson!!!

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a proposition is true or valid

Opinion is a view formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Conjecture is an opinion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

As you are often asked - what evidence do you have that Brexit is a positive move for the U.K.?

I only have an opinion that brexit will be positive for the UK.

No doubt you believe that you have something other than an opinion, that it will be negative.

But you're wrong. Because your assertion that you have "evidence", is fundamentally flawed. Why? Because what you're calling "evidence" is not based on facts. Your opinion is based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

In other words you're self confirming again. "What I say is evidence and not conjecture, is evidence not conjecture, cos I'm saying it's evidence and not conjecture.

But if you're so confident that you have more than an opinion. Post up some evidence and facts.

[biggles]

Biggles seems to be mixing up the wars. You do know there were two world wars in the 20th century?

I’m struggling to understand what any of this has to do with Brexit in 21st century.

ok. seen it. i made two comments. the first was about ww1. the second was paraphrasing john cleese from faulty towers with the classic about germany invading poland. you really are nitpicking in your desperation to find fault.

[martin_p]

you really are ******* on your owns arguments, mate. germany engineered a situation where war was inevitable. you seem to be painting the UK as the baddies when you state that we declared war on germany. but if we did why did we have to do that? because, once again, germany invaded another country, this time belgium, to attack france. are you saying we were in the wrong to go to the aid of another european country? i just hope that we leave the buggers to fight their own battles in the future.

You claimed Germany started the wars. As has been pointed out that’s incorrect. Austria-Hungary was the first country to declare war in 1914 (with Serbia) which triggered a number of other countries joining over the next few days and weeks due to various pacts and treaties.

[RingoMcCartney]

Hasn’t the difference already been explained to you?

Evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

Opinion - a view or judgment formed about something not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

If it helps you - my comments are evidence yours are opinion.

Let's all have a look at your "evidence" then. Make sure it's not the opinions of others based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

[martin_p]

ok. seen it. i made two comments. the first was about ww1. the second was paraphrasing john cleese from faulty towers with the classic about germany invading poland. you really are nitpicking in your desperation to find fault.

Plus your belief that ‘they fought in the trenches’ in WWII.

[scouseclaret]

I only have an opinion that brexit will be positive for the UK.

No doubt you believe that you have something other than an opinion, that it will be negative.

But you're wrong. Because your assertion that you have "evidence", is fundamentally flawed. Why? Because what you're calling "evidence" is not based on facts. Your opinion is based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

In other words you're self confirming again. "What I say is evidence and not conjecture, is evidence not conjecture, cos I'm saying it's evidence and not conjecture.

But if you're so confident that you have more than an opinion. Post up some evidence and facts.

OK then Ringo, in your opinion why, and in what ways, will Brexit be positive for the UK?

[martin_p]

Let's all have a look at your "evidence" then.

There’s lots of evidence that the negative Brexit predictions are coming true. Banks transferring billions in assets abroad, companies both big and small moving parts of their business into Europe (as part of their emergency Brexit plans). It’s all starting to happen as ‘Project Fear’ said it would.

[RingoMcCartney]

So the issue is primarily British governments, not the EU?

Yes.

UK Governments happily doing the bidding of appointed Eurocrats.

I know you'll disagree. We've been here many many times.

My opinion hasn't changed. Doubt yours has.

[Burnley Ace]

Let's all have a look at your "evidence" then. Make sure it's not the opinions of others based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumptions and forecasts.

What specifically do you want evidence of? I’m still waiting for your definition of negative! Tick tock!!

[martin_p]

Yes.

UK Governments happily doing the bidding of appointed Eurocrats.

I know you'll disagree. We've been here many many times.

My opinion hasn't changed. Doubt yours has.

The EU are always going on about how compliant the British government are. We rolled over and accepted the Euro for example and have been happy to give up our rebate. Yes, the U.K. has never been a thorn in the EU’s side.

Where’s your evidence our government does the EU’s bidding, because there’s plenty of evidence they don’t!

[Colburn_Claret]

Thanks for that reply, Colburn. I am actually quite old and comfortably off, so I am not particularly concerned about my personal finances. It is more about the ability of the government to provide public services if the economy shrinks. That's where the penny becomes important as we all rely on those services to a greater or lesser degree. My worry is that if it is 'bumpy' as a result of Brexit then schools, the NHS, social care, policing etc. will suffer as a result. I know it may or may not be the case that the economy will shrink or growth be inhibited, but we are certainly taking a risk.

So is that risk worth it? The response is that we will have greater freedom. And again I would ask, How will I and others experience that freedom? How will it benefit us? What will I be able to do then that I can't do now? As I said before, freedom is desirable in terms of the tangible benefits it bestows. Where there are no benefits then freedom is simply an ephemeral concept.

I can empathise with that. There are no guarantees Erasmus. But there aren't any guarantees if we stay in the EU. What about public services in Greece. Italian banks are about to go tits up, and will require baling out. Their economies in recession as is Germanys. France acts as though it's about to have another revolution, although the press aren't allowed to give it a lot of coverage incase it lends credence to the Brexit vote.
I've said in other threads on The EU, economies rise and fall like the tides. Trying to stop it is pretending you are King Canute. But the best way to survive a recession is to do what is necessary to protect what you have. That can't be done inside a one shoe fits all, economic structure like the Euro. Countries within the EU are too diverse, economically and culturally, and arent free to do what is required to protect themselves, they'll be stuck at the whim of Brussels, which means Germany and France will do what's best for them and hang the rest.
Freedom also means we are free of the ECJ, they shouldn't have any right to tell us how to run our country or justice system, as if we are some 3rd world backwoods country that needs taking in hand.
Freedom means having the power to elect our parliament, to set the laws that we want this country run by. We don't have a say in Brussels, we are a small fish in a large pond, and people we've never heard of, or voted for dictate to us on what's best for us, as if we didn't know. The truth of that is the number of laws that we have to adhere to that we voted against in the European parliament but lost. Even when we win they just return to it at a later date and keep voting on it until they get there way.
Most of tonight's posts have been on the economy, but there are far bigger reasons to leave the EU than just economic ones.

Unlike the remainers on here I'm not going to promise you it will be all milk and honey, because it won't. But it will be a hell of a lot better than the doom ridden crap they spout. Life goes in cycles and whatever happens we will get to a point where the dust has settled and we find not a lot has changed and was all that fuss worth it. It just takes time, faith and hard work.

[martin_p]

I can empathise with that. There are no guarantees Erasmus. But there aren't any guarantees if we stay in the EU. What about public services in Greece. Italian banks are about to go tits up, and will require baling out. Their economies in recession as is Germanys. France acts as though it's about to have another revolution, although the press aren't allowed to give it a lot of coverage incase it lends credence to the Brexit vote.
I've said in other threads on The EU, economies rise and fall like the tides. Trying to stop it is pretending you are King Canute. But the best way to survive a recession is to do what is necessary to protect what you have. That can't be done inside a one shoe fits all, economic structure like the Euro. Countries within the EU are too diverse, economically and culturally, and arent free to do what is required to protect themselves, they'll be stuck at the whim of Brussels, which means Germany and France will do what's best for them and hang the rest.
Freedom also means we are free of the ECJ, they shouldn't have any right to tell us how to run our country or justice system, as if we are some 3rd world backwoods country that needs taking in hand.
Freedom means having the power to elect our parliament, to set the laws that we want this country run by. We don't have a say in Brussels, we are a small fish in a large pond, and people we've never heard of, or voted for dictate to us on what's best for us, as if we didn't know. The truth of that is the number of laws that we have to adhere to that we voted against in the European parliament but lost. Even when we win they just return to it at a later date and keep voting on it until they get there way.
Most of tonight's posts have been on the economy, but there are far bigger reasons to leave the EU than just economic ones.

Unlike the remainers on here I'm not going to promise you it will be all milk and honey, because it won't. But it will be a hell of a lot better than the doom ridden crap they spout. Life goes in cycles and whatever happens we will get to a point where the dust has settled and we find not a lot has changed and was all that fuss worth it. It just takes time, faith and hard work.

So nothing tangible then. Just one example of how these freedoms will impact the average person’s life would be nice.

Oh, by the way, we do have a say in Brussels. That’s why there’s lots of things other EU countries have adopted that we haven’t.

[biggles]

been fun. no personal offence to anyone out there. please excuse any insults - you are all adults you can take it. god knows i have to. lol
you have your views on brexit, some of us have different views. none of us will change our decision. not one of us know how it will turn out whichever way it goes. i guess we all want whats best for the UK. most of us like some things about the EU but they are counteracted by what we feel is wrong with it. if we end up staying in I will look forward to easier travel within [and maybe across] Europe. i will continue to drink german beer and eat italian food. personally my gripe is with the organisation [corrupt, i truly believe] that is the EU. I have travelled all over Europe [and lived in Germany and Spain for a few years] and found that the 'ordinary citizens' of most countries are helpful and friendly enough [but not so much in Spain, imho]. there's no 'one size fits all' where politics is concerned, this is most certainly true of Brexit, of course, but I hope we have the chance to find a path that leads to a compromise that we can all live with.

[biggles]

Plus your belief that ‘they fought in the trenches’ in WWII.

no, you are actually giving me credit for someone else's words, there. i didn't say that at all.

[RingoMcCartney]

There’s lots of evidence that the negative Brexit predictions are coming true. Banks transferring billions in assets abroad, companies both big and small moving parts of their business into Europe (as part of their emergency Brexit plans). It’s all starting to happen as ‘Project Fear’ said it would.

That is not evidence that brexit will not be positive. Banks transfer assets abroad then repatriate it constantly. How many businesses have moved into Europe while we've been in the EU?

Volkswagen have announced they'll no longer build their new van in Germany, transferring production to Poland. Is that project fear starting to happen?

Your examples may prove to be short term. Do you know for a fact they won't? I can't prove it either way. Nor can you.

"Foreign investment in UK at record level

The UK remains a top destination for foreign investment, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), with investment increasing by 12.6% in 2018"

I could claim that fact to be evidence of a post referendum boom. But it may be nothing of the sort. It may be short term and time could prove me wrong.

Your "evidence" of Brexit being negative is like somebody claiming a hot spring day is evidence of climate change. It's not its just the weather.