Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Colburn_Claret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:40 pm

scouseclaret wrote:The Euro crisis was the result of a credit bubble stoked up by low Euro interest rates that were suitable for the mature economies of Germany and Francethatvwere recovering from the early 2000s recession, but wholly unsuitable for the booming economies on the periphery - Greece, Spain, Ireland as you say. But that’s alll history- I only mentioned it as one of many examples of when the EU has tried to coerce the UK into doing something it didn’t want to do, and Britain exercised its authority.

What really interests me is the fact that this “lost sovereignty” issue has become such an accepted meme that people never seem to stop and question it, mainly because it’s been rammed down our throats by eurosceptic politicians and the tabloid press for 30 years or more. Why do people believe we “have no say” in what gets decided? It’s just not true.

Where is the evidence?
Because our say is worthless.
Germany and France have long run the show to suit there own needs. The likes of Greece, Spain and Ireland, who are in debt , vote as they are told basically. We are often The Lone Voice in the Wilderness. It's a democracy, we lose, and we always will. We don't have enough in common with the rest of Europe to conform to their direction, we don't have enough voting rights to defeat them. That's why the best solution is a divorce.

Viva la difference.

martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:45 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:The only fact is this.

No country has left the EU before.

A country with the 5th/6th biggest GDP in the world.

WE HAVE NOT LEFT YET.

There is no "evidence"

Just opinions saying brexit will be either negative, positive or neutral.

Till it happens I, nor any Ceaseless Remoaner, have or can have "evidence"

Just conjecture and opinions based on assumptions, projections, scenarios given varying criteria, predictions, assumption, forecasts and short termism.
OK, so we haven't left. So the current relocations and asset transferring must be evidence that voting Leave would start to have a negative effect on companies in the UK and they'd leave.

scrambledclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by scrambledclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Try and get your confused little head, the idea of a team being awarded a penalty , is not "evidence"of the team that conceded it definitely going to lose the game.

Do I need to provide crayons?

Christ. I can see why you voted Remain!
Who said anything about definitely losing the game? I think conceding an early penalty constitutes evidence that things aren't going well, which seems to a pretty good analogy for where we are with Brexit right now actually and is what people have provided. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? That is, anything that suggest things are going well? Otherwise it seems like you are conceding that things are going badly but that you expect things will magically improve in April. That would be great! Almost as good as that we came from behind via a Gifton Noel Williams hat trick!

Do you also think that Huddersfield will stay up? If so, maybe I can borrow one of those crayons and we can draw up a little wager?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by NCClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Oh God!.......Not the stiff upper lip again.
Never mind that the populace was lied to repeatedly about the benefits of Brexit..........Madness abounds!
How very one dimensional ... and repetitive

DocFoster
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by DocFoster » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its nice to see the poster back who said the Irish backstop is all about fish.

That is the level we are comfortable on here I feel.
Let's put that in the context of the original "Bercow" post shall we Lancaster? Damn that server capacity eh?

The original post was:-
Bercow - a chance to go down in history
Postby DocFoster » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:25 am

Anyone who believes the backstop is to prevent a Hard border is fooling themselves. It's the EU's lever in all future trade talks.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... n-brussels

This article refers to Macron using it to get a fishing deal. They can and will use it for any and all future negotiations and that's why it needs to go.

"As the 27 EU heads of state and government took a decisive step towards sealing the terms of Britain’s split from Brussels after 45 years of membership, the French president laid down his red lines in the talks over the future relationship.
Macron said the EU’s demands on fisheries needed swift resolution after 29 March 2019 or the talks on a wider trade deal would fail leaving the UK in the “backstop” customs union envisioned in the withdrawal agreement."

Could it be made any clearer?


You replied....

Lancaster...
“Could I make it even clearer

The EU will not negotiate the backstop, and its **** all to do with fish.”

I replied. Apologies for the bold but you obviously missed it last time.

I used that article as an example. My point was it’s a lever that the EU WILL USE in negotiations on ALL aspects of a trade deal and if we are stupid enough to retain it why the hell wouldn’t they?


Many thanks for the opportunity to TRY and explain this again and, after the last few days of listening to the diatribe flowing out of Brussels, who gives a toss if they wont negotiate it. They seem to enjoy ******* on their chips almost as much as you enjoy ******* in the wind.
Watch out for the sky won't you Goosey.

Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:55 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If democracy means not always getting your own way, then why are remainers having a hissy fit at the prospect of leaving the EU, when that's what the majority voted for.

You keep asserting that Brussels is a democracy, so why can't you accept democracy in this country.
No examples then. Thought not.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TVC15 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:59 pm

600 posts later - well done Rowls. You lit the touch paper again.

Anyhoooo - how about that ladies “jack and danny” ? What a spectacle.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:59 pm

Damo wrote:Brexit will result in job losses. Just like being in the EU has resulted in job losses.
You lot have had two years to convince us that Brexit is a bad idea and all you can come up with is to say that it will be just as bad as it has been for years
In fairness, we could have spent every minute of those two years trying to explain the concept of “evidence” to Ringo and we wouldn’t have got very far with that either. Would that be the fault of remainers, or just the brexiter’s (singular, in this instance), inability to listen or understand?

Your first couple of sentences demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of causality, by the way. I’m surprised nobody has tried to claim how bad the EU is on account of how many people have died since we’ve been part of it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:04 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Lol you can keep putting it in blocks but just keeps highlighting that you don’t understand what evidence is. Perhaps it might help if you give us your definition of “evidence” and “opinion” as it seems to be different to the one in the dictionary
Honestly mate, you're flogging a (brain) dead horse with this one.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:14 pm

The backstop is **** all to do with fish doc.

You can pretend all you like and chuckle like the mad little brexiteer that you clearly are, but it is **** all to do with fish.

What is with fish and blue passports with you lot anyway?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:10 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Because our say is worthless.
Germany and France have long run the show to suit there own needs. The likes of Greece, Spain and Ireland, who are in debt , vote as they are told basically. We are often The Lone Voice in the Wilderness. It's a democracy, we lose, and we always will. We don't have enough in common with the rest of Europe to conform to their direction, we don't have enough voting rights to defeat them. .
I covered this 2 pages back, and the situation doesn't change simply because you keep repeating the same allegation, but just in case you missed my earlier post:
" ....... ed, but this goes some way to explaining it.
What we do know, though, from official EU voting records is that the British government has voted ‘No’ to EU proposals on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ to legislative proposals 2,466 times since 1999. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. Just pointing out how many times the UK government ‘lost’ is hence a misleading picture of what has happened.

Moreover, even saying the UK “lost” on these 56 occasions is misleading. First, EU legislation passes through several ‘readings’ in the Council and the European Parliament, so the fact that the UK voted ‘No’ in one of the readings does not mean that the legislation was not subsequently amended enough for the UK to support it.

Second, the records from the Council only relate to votes on legislative proposals that eventually became law. So we simply do not know how often the UK successfully opposed proposals, as these are not mentioned in the official figures."
.
So what you claim, is demonstrably proved wrong by the evidence. Being on the "losing side" less than 2% of the time proves beyond any doubt that our vote counts and indeed we have significant influence.
Added to this we currently have our veto on any significant changes / decisions.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I covered this 2 pages back, and the situation doesn't change simply because you keep repeating the same allegation, but just in case you missed my earlier post:
.
So what you claim, is demonstrably proved wrong by the evidence. Being on the "losing side" less than 2% of the time proves beyond any doubt that our vote counts and indeed we have significant influence.
Added to this we currently have our veto on any significant changes / decisions.
Yeah, but sovereignty, freedom, you know, that stuff.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by PaintYorkClaretnBlue » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:56 pm

What is it with you lot? Have you no lives? Of the six hundred posts on this subject most are by a handful of posters who hold polar opposite views and are desperate to persuade/prove that the other is wrong.. It isn’t going to happen, get used to it.

It’s incredible how much time posters like ringo and Lancaster spend arguing an unwinnable argument, go for a walk, meet real people, do something constructive! Jesus wept!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:01 pm

For those who have long argued that the EU is genuinely democratic, consider this.

If Donald Tusk’s “special place in hell” remarks had been uttered, say, by Theresa May about Jeremy Corbyn due to his sympathy for various things around the world, she would be out on her ear within days. Rightly so. The public would insist on it, as would Parliament. It would have taken political insults way too far.

Does anyone think the slightest thing will happen to Tusk after these remarks about (currently) fellow EU citizens?

It won’t, because he is not fully accountable to EU citizens for what he does, and if he is, the UK are too small a chunk to have influence.

That’s not democracy.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:14 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I covered this 2 pages back, and the situation doesn't change simply because you keep repeating the same allegation, but just in case you missed my earlier post:
.
So what you claim, is demonstrably proved wrong by the evidence. Being on the "losing side" less than 2% of the time proves beyond any doubt that our vote counts and indeed we have significant influence.
Added to this we currently have our veto on any significant changes / decisions.
But the 2% we voted against obviously mattered to us. We didn't wake up one morning and decide, I know let's vote no today for the sake of it. We must have had our reasons, unfortunately our reasoning ultimately doesn't count.

It was supposed to be a trading bloc, no problem.
I watched a video on FB today from 1975. Peter Shore arguing why we should vote to stay out of the EU.
Quite simply he exampled Australia and Canada. Would they, who do most of their trade with Japan and the USA , give those countries the power to pass laws in Australia or Canada. Would they hell. It doesn't matter wether those laws are good or bad, you don't hand over the control of your countries borders, it's trading policies and trade freedoms to an outside body. Any outside body.

A trading bloc requires a quarterly meeting of trade and finance ministers to work out where we are, and where we'd like to go.
It doesn't, and never did require a whole new parliament, a new flag, a new currency, a new army.
They are fanatics, confirmed by the numpty who thinks there is a special place in hell for me. Another numpty by the way that none of us voted for or selected.
I disagree with those of you who want to remain, obviously, but where I really disagree with you, is your repeating all the doom laden propaganda spouted from fanatics who don't have your interests at heart, but only their own.
To disagree is fine, to pretend we are going to fall off a cliff is a load of bullshit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:But the 2% we voted against obviously mattered to us. We didn't wake up one morning and decide, I know let's vote no today for the sake of it. We must have had our reasons, unfortunately our reasoning ultimately doesn't count.
Why don't you give us some of those reasons. This 2% of times when we didn't get all our own way obviously vexed you so much, I presume you know what it actually was that annoyed you.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by levraiclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:38 pm

NCClaret wrote:How very one dimensional ... and repetitive
And true.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:42 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:For those who have long argued that the EU is genuinely democratic, consider this.

If Donald Tusk’s “special place in hell” remarks had been uttered, say, by Theresa May about Jeremy Corbyn due to his sympathy for various things around the world, she would be out on her ear within days. Rightly so. The public would insist on it, as would Parliament. It would have taken political insults way too far.
Citation needed.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by NCClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:46 pm

levraiclaret wrote:And true.
... and now a one dimensional look at 'truth'.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Greenmile wrote:Why don't you give us some of those reasons. This 2% of times when we didn't get all our own way obviously vexed you so much, I presume you know what it actually was that annoyed you.
You really are missing the point entirely.
The reasons are completely irrelevant, completely. They very fact that we can't have our way vexes me. We are supposed to be independent, WE decide what is good for us, not Brussels. I accept that if you want to belong that is the price you pay for being part of the EU. That is why I voted leave. It has to be more important having control of our path, even should it be the wrong path (Not that I think it is), but should it be at least we aren't going there at the dictate of others.
Sovereignty is all important, there isn't any need to justify every single time we voted nay, the very fact we did should be enough.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by levraiclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:59 pm

NCClaret wrote:... and now a one dimensional look at 'truth'.

there are dimensions to your truth!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:59 pm

Greenmile wrote:Why don't you give us some of those reasons. This 2% of times when we didn't get all our own way obviously vexed you so much, I presume you know what it actually was that annoyed you.
I found this, which may help you answer. It's a report showing what the general effects on EU policymaking would have been if the UK hadn't had a vote. It's based on past events, so hopefully Ringo will accept it as evidence. I realise this doesn't show exactly what we were outvoted on, but it gives you an idea of the sort of thing where we have differed from the "EU consensus" in the past, and thus presumably the sort of thing that upsets you.

https://75276bc03af26d7c1f58-72b421883b ... igital.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Page 12 onwards gives the conclusions, which I'll detail here (along with my smartarse commentary) for those who cba to click a strange link

Effect 1: more regulatory burden on EU businesses

ie more worker's rights, workplace safety etc. The sort of things you'd folk like Ringo and Jakub would be all for with their concern for low-skilled workers. I can see why the likes of Rowls and Crosspool would be against it though.

Effect 2: weaker copyright protection in the EU


Maybe it's this one. I'm certainly all for artists being rewarded for their work. Not sure it would be a hill I'd like to die on though. It doesn't seem worth risking the future prosperity of the entire nation for.

Effect 3: EU budget as a whole would be smaller, while Member States’ contributions would increase


Now this would be a point worth arguing, if only you hadn't already told us how the economic side of it isn't really important to you. What a shame.

Effect 4: stronger push for tax harmonisation and higher taxation of financial transactions


(ie trying to ensure that the uber-rich and massive corporations / banks etc pay their fair share)

Effect 5: less support for nuclear and exploitation of unconventional energy sources (e.g. shale gas)

Maybe you're pro-nuclear power (not an unreasonable position to take), or a fan of fracking (a bit less defensible imo).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:19 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You really are missing the point entirely.
The reasons are completely irrelevant, completely. They very fact that we can't have our way vexes me. We are supposed to be independent, WE decide what is good for us, not Brussels. I accept that if you want to belong that is the price you pay for being part of the EU. That is why I voted leave. It has to be more important having control of our path, even should it be the wrong path (Not that I think it is), but should it be at least we aren't going there at the dictate of others.
Sovereignty is all important, there isn't any need to justify every single time we voted nay, the very fact we did should be enough.
OK - maybe it's just a matter of scale. I can see how your individual UK vote is worth proportionally more than your EU vote (ignoring the differences in the structure and voting systems of the two entities for a minute) purely due to there being more EU citizens than UK citizens.

So my question would be, where would you draw the line, if it was up to you? Would you be in favour of Lancashire breaking away from the rest of the UK for example? The North as a whole? England? or is the UK in the goldilocks zone of pooled sovereignty / resources / influence etc, in your opinion?

My point is that "we" can never have it all our own way. The UK govt probably makes more than 2% of decisions that you personally / your household / your town etc would disagree with were a vote to be taken, no matter what your political persuasion. This is just the same thing happening on a slightly larger scale.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:21 pm

Effect 4: This was a thinly veiled attack on the Financial muscle of the City in London, and therefore the UK ...

Effect 5 : The Germans are now burning coal at a higher rate following their decision to shut down Nuclear over time, so we must do as the Germans do. They're also constructing a pipeline ( Nord Stream 2 ) to pipe Gas in from Russia, the pipeline's main shareholder are Gasprom, and the $6 bn.project is largely financed by the Germans and French. The French ( 2013 ) and the Germans ( 2016 ) have banned fracking, by and large , at the bequest of the Russians who have an interest, of course . So the EU will be shaking their fists at the Russians with one hand over human rights and Ukraine, whilst pouring money into their pockets with the Gas ...

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by scouseclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:26 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Because our say is worthless.
Germany and France have long run the show to suit there own needs. The likes of Greece, Spain and Ireland, who are in debt , vote as they are told basically. We are often The Lone Voice in the Wilderness. It's a democracy, we lose, and we always will. We don't have enough in common with the rest of Europe to conform to their direction, we don't have enough voting rights to defeat them. That's why the best solution is a divorce.

Viva la difference.
That’s just a load of Brexiteer sound bites. Where are the facts to back that up?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You really are missing the point entirely.
The reasons are completely irrelevant, completely. They very fact that we can't have our way vexes me. We are supposed to be independent, WE decide what is good for us, not Brussels. I accept that if you want to belong that is the price you pay for being part of the EU. That is why I voted leave. It has to be more important having control of our path, even should it be the wrong path (Not that I think it is), but should it be at least we aren't going there at the dictate of others.
Sovereignty is all important, there isn't any need to justify every single time we voted nay, the very fact we did should be enough.
Given you’re against countries that are part of a union not getting their own way you’ll be for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all who voted to remain in the EU, doing just that. You’re essentially agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:32 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Effect 4: This was a thinly veiled attack on the Financial muscle of the City in London, and therefore the UK ...

Effect 5 : The Germans are now burning coal at a higher rate following their decision to shut down Nuclear over time, so we must do as the Germans do. They're also constructing a pipeline ( Nord Stream 2 ) to pipe Gas in from Russia, the pipeline's main shareholder are Gasprom, and the $6 bn.project is largely financed by the Germans and French. The French ( 2013 ) and the Germans ( 2016 ) have banned fracking, by and large , at the bequest of the Russians who have an interest, of course . So the EU will be shaking their fists at the Russians with one hand over human rights and Ukraine, whilst pouring money into their pockets with the Gas ...
Come on now - we’ll have no reasonable and specific arguments from brexiters on this thread. You’ll need to at least bring up one of the world wars to fit in here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by scouseclaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:42 pm

DocFoster wrote:You're wasting your time Ringo.

The SKY is falling in and you could probably replace the user name of many (not all) of the remoaners on here with "Chicken Licken, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky , Drakey Lakey, Goosey Loosey, Gander Lander, Turkey Lurkey and Foxy Loxy." You can decide which is which.

I liked this extract. But then I would wouldn't I.

One certainty of Brexit according to Remainers was that it would adversely impact on the UK economy just as the Europeans were enjoying growth. In the two years or more since the vote to leave, British employment and wages have improved, the economy has continued to expand, and the predicted flight of investors has failed to materialise.
Far from powering away to leave an ailing UK economy floundering in its wake, the eurozone is in trouble. Its cornerstone economies – Germany, France and Italy – are all heading into recession, according to the latest statistics. This would be the third contraction for the eurozone in a decade, hardly an advertisement for stability or a guarantor of prosperity.
At last, a Brexiteer actually willing to support his beliefs with hard facts - thank you Doctor!

Well, one fact anyway, along with a helping of misleading spin. It is true that the labour market has been remarkably strong. Sadly, however, real (inflation adjusted) wages have fallen because inflation has risen, largely due to the fall in the pound which was a direct result of the referendum outcome (Ringo - that’s not a OPINION, its a FACT).

Also, whilst the economy has grown modestly since the referendum and recession has so far been avoided, Britain has slumped from near the top of the G7 growth league table to second bottom - behind Germany and France, ahead of only Italy. Business investment has all but stalled and, despite the initial sugar rush to the share prices of our largest companies post the referendum (they tend to benefit from weaker Sterling) UK has underperformed global stock markets.

But hey - why present a balanced view when you can use propaganda!

https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-714 ... f383b09ff9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Top Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:50 pm

scouseclaret wrote:At last, a Brexiteer actually willing to support his beliefs with hard facts - thank you Doctor!

Well, one fact anyway, along with a helping of misleading spin. It is true that the labour market has been remarkably strong. Sadly, however, real (inflation adjusted) wages have fallen because inflation has risen, largely due to the fall in the pound which was a direct result of the referendum outcome (Ringo - that’s not a OPINION, its a FACT).

Also, whilst the economy has grown modestly since the referendum and recession has so far been avoided, Britain has slumped from near the top of the G7 growth league table to second bottom - behind Germany and France, ahead of only Italy. Business investment has all but stalled and, despite the initial sugar rush to the share prices of our largest companies post the referendum (they tend to benefit from weaker Sterling) UK has underperformed global stock markets.

But hey - why present a balanced view when you can use propaganda!

https://www.ft.com/content/cf51e840-714 ... f383b09ff9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
German Dax lost over 17% in 2018 which is somewhat comparable to our ftse 100, which lost approximately 8.5%. Facts before bull sh!t

CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:59 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Citation needed.
Tusk being a Tosser is leading every news source in the UK so I assume that is ironic?

As an aside, another one that chimed with me today:

‘A free nation must have complete control over its own harbours, to open them or close them at will, or shut out any commodity, or allow it to enter in, just as it seemed best to suit the wellbeing of its own people… and entirely free of the interference of any other nation… Short of that power, no nation possesses the first essentials of freedom.’

James Connolly, Socialist, in 1916. He nailed it. That is why the Irish are currently hypocrits and why our own socialists are missing the point that you will never get an equal share of resources when part of, essentially, an empire which the EU currently is - ask the Greeks (not Corbyn to be fair to him).

Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:11 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Tusk being a Tosser is leading every news source in the UK so I assume that is ironic?

As an aside, another one that chimed with me today:

‘A free nation must have complete control over its own harbours, to open them or close them at will, or shut out any commodity, or allow it to enter in, just as it seemed best to suit the wellbeing of its own people… and entirely free of the interference of any other nation… Short of that power, no nation possesses the first essentials of freedom.’

James Connolly, Socialist, in 1916. He nailed it. That is why the Irish are currently hypocrits and why our own socialists are missing the point that you will never get an equal share of resources when part of, essentially, an empire which the EU currently is - ask the Greeks (not Corbyn to be fair to him).
Tall Paul was obviously talking about your ludicrous assertion that Teresa May would be out on her ear if she had said what Tusk said, but about Corbyn. Did you see any of our national press in the build up to the last election? They’d be cheering her from the rooftops if she had a go at Corbyn like that.

And Connolly’s 100 year old point (maybe the world’s changed a little since then?) along with your own extension thereof is equally applicable to the constituent parts of the UK. Although we certainly get more than our fair share of EU resources (the rebate etc) at present, so I’ll give you that. Not sure it strengthens your argument much, though.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:50 pm

martin_p wrote:Given you’re against countries that are part of a union not getting their own way you’ll be for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all who voted to remain in the EU, doing just that. You’re essentially agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon.
I never agree with Sturgeon :)
Scotland, Wales and NI should all be free to choose what they want to do. That's always been my point of view. I hope they stay in the Union, but I wouldn't deny them the right of independence.
I wouldn't be demanding a second vote if they did either :roll:

Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Greenmile » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:54 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I never agree with Sturgeon :)
Scotland, Wales and NI should all be free to choose what they want to do. That's always been my point of view. I hope they stay in the Union, but I wouldn't deny them the right of independence.
I wouldn't be demanding a second vote if they did either :roll:
What about, say, Lancashire (or Yorkshire, or Cornwall)? Should they have the right to independence too?

I’m not being facetious - I’m genuinely interested in your answer.

ClaretAndJew
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by ClaretAndJew » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm

The Earth will be destroyed by its own sun in 5 billion years so Brexit won't matter.

Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm

I think Merkel will make her move this week. She won't let a no deal Brexit happen. Expect the Withdrawal Agreement to be re-opened and the back stop to suddenly become negotiable so that 'the UK cannot be trapped in it indefinitely'.

Taffy on the wing
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:02 pm

NCClaret wrote:How very one dimensional ... and repetitive
It seemingly needs to be repeated.......You're not listening!

NCClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by NCClaret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:17 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:It seemingly needs to be repeated.......You're not listening!
... being patronising and repetitive doesn't encourage listening
Last edited by NCClaret on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Tusk being a Tosser is leading every news source in the UK so I assume that is ironic?

As an aside, another one that chimed with me today:

‘A free nation must have complete control over its own harbours, to open them or close them at will, or shut out any commodity, or allow it to enter in, just as it seemed best to suit the wellbeing of its own people… and entirely free of the interference of any other nation… Short of that power, no nation possesses the first essentials of freedom.’

James Connolly, Socialist, in 1916. He nailed it. That is why the Irish are currently hypocrits and why our own socialists are missing the point that you will never get an equal share of resources when part of, essentially, an empire which the EU currently is - ask the Greeks (not Corbyn to be fair to him).
WTO rules would prohibit that kind of trade discrimination.
Last edited by AndrewJB on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 pm

Greenmile wrote:What about, say, Lancashire (or Yorkshire, or Cornwall)? Should they have the right to independence too?

I’m not being facetious - I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
I was half way through answering this to another poster and lost the bloody lot . Start again.

I've been in favour for a long time that more decisions should be given to the region's. I don't want Scottish independence, but devolving that power to Holyrood was essential, and although devolving power to the region's isn't seen as important, I think it could go a long way to restoring people's trust in politics. Many people in the North of England feel just as disenfranchised by a Tory led Westminster, as the Scots do.

All over Europe regions want more autonomy. Catalans and Basques in Spain. The Balkans post Tito. The Soviet bloc.
There is nothing wrong and nothing to be ashamed of, for being different.

Putting all the people in a melting pot, and knocking out coffee coloured children might be lead to a peaceful world, but it would be a damn boring one as well.

I love the kaleidoscope that makes Europe. The languages, architectures, food, drinks customs, dress. It's what makes Europe such a wonderful place. I've never been anti Europe, just anti EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:30 pm

Interesting article just published on the " Telegraph " website, this is the text ... Author: Ambrose Evans-Pritchard



Be very wary of any EU codicil, protocol, or soft law memorandum offering assurances on the Irish backstop.

Either it safeguards the UK’s sovereign prerogatives and free agency, or it locks the country into a perpetual legal arrangement as a regulatory captive without voting rights. It is one or the other. No fuzzy compromise on this legal point can exist.The 1713 Treaty of Utrecht still holds force - to the eternal irritation of Madrid - because it is extremely difficult to abrogate. “You cannot get out treaties unless there is a ‘denunciation clause’ or by mutual agreement,” said Lorand Bartels, a law don at Cambridge.

NAFTA, NATO, or the WTO, all have escape clauses. That is why Donald Trump can threaten to tear up everything. The Withdrawal Agreement does not. It is sui generis.

No large country in modern peacetime history has ever signed a treaty document of this kind yielding fundamental sovereign powers for ever. The insolvent king of Spain agreed to the Treaty of Utrecht and the loss of Gibraltar only because he had been defeated in the War of Spanish Succession.

We already have the hard lesson of the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights, the so-called Christmas tree of rights dismissed at first by one Europe minister (Keith Vaz) as “no more binding than the Beano or the Sun”.

The Lisbon Treaty later gave the Charter legal force under the European Court (ECJ). This created a clutch of aspirational economic and social rights that clash with Common Law practice.

Tony Blair secured an exemption known as Protocol 30, or pretended to. “It is absolutely clear that we have an opt-out," he told the House in June 2007. In fact there was an obvious loophole in the wording.

The consequence is that the ECJ acquired jurisdiction over swaths of British commercial, social, and criminal law through the backdoor, becoming the UK’s effective supreme court at a stroke.

Since then the ECJ has ruled repeatedly on the basis of the Charter. It stopped the UK deporting an Afghan immigrant. It blocked the sharing of electronic data with US anti-terror authorities.

The question is whether any soft law offer by the EU on the Irish backstop is equally worthless. Last month’s letter to the Prime Minister from Jean-Claude Juncker and Donald Tusk - heads of the Commission and the Council - promised “best endeavours” to negotiate a quick replacement for the backstop.

This has some force in international law. Andrew Duff, a former MEP and president of the Spinelli Group, said there could be a third document bridging the legally-binding Withdrawal Agreement and the non-binding Political Declaration. Some formula will be found to clothe the “best endeavours” pledge in legalese.

Brussels needs to do something because risks are rising. Europe is suddenly in a rougher predicament than anybody expected, hence Mr Tusk’s talk of dispatching Brexiteers to a “special place in Hell”.

The eurozone is near recession with no monetary or fiscal defences. It faces the escalating risk of an Italian debt crisis spreading to French and German banks. A no-deal Brexit has become very dangerous for the EU as well..

While there is much chatter in Westminster over whether Europe would agree to extend Article 50, the story en coulisse in Brussels is how many EU states urgently need an extra three months themselves because they are not remotely ready. Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz let slip in Davos that the EU cannot compel the British to request a delay.

Nor does Brussels entirely control the moral high ground over the Irish border. Lord Trimble and his Nobel Prize have crept into the equation.

It is becoming harder to claim that the backstop is a necessary guarantee for the Good Friday Agreement when the man who brokered the accord calls it a prima facie of violation. This shifts the needle in the parallel debate over Brexit in the US Congress.

Even so, the EU offer will fall short of a categorical legal time-limit on the backstop. In which case there is little that Britain can do if Brussels closes the trap later. The EU is not a party to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, so where does one adjudicate breaches of the Vienna Convention?

It comes down to whether you think the Commission is genuinely acting in the interests of Irish peace, or exploiting an emotional issue in order to lock the UK into its customs territory and legal orbit.

We already know that Brussels will take a maximalist line on what constitutes workable technology for the border, despite last week’s admission by EU negotiator Michel Barnier that “virtual, decentralized controls” could be used in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

We also know that Sabine Weyand, his deputy and erstwhile Cambridge literature buff, told ambassadors that the Withdrawal Agreement “requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship” and that the EU will “retain all the controls.”

It is hard to put a friendly construction on motives when the same Commission is currently attempting to shut down a large part of the City’s commodity trading business in a punitive attack.

Brussels is pursuing Britain for failure to charge VAT on commodity futures, options, and key derivatives on the London Metal Exchange, the London Sugar Terminal Market, and other exchanges. This is to overturn a settled compromise dating back to the UK’s original derogation in the 1970s on zero-rated VAT in this market. Why now?

The EU claims that Britain has stretched the scope of the derogation, but as the old saying goes: the law is what you do to your enemies, it is what you interpret for your friends. It threatens to drive the business out of London and ruin one of the City’s prize industries.

“China, New York, Singapore and Dubai will be rubbing their hands with glee. They have been dying to get their hands on this important market,” said Ross Norman from Sharps Pixley.

This saga is a warning of what is in store as Britain heads into a transition with no veto power or defences, and why semi-permanent limbo as an EU legal adjunct could prove untenable.

Lest we forget, the backstop is not the only landmine in the withdrawal package. The non-binding Political Declaration keeps the UK subject to the Acquis on the environment, labour law, taxation, competition, and state aid. Non-regression clauses make this law impossible to repeal even where its manifestly harmful.

Paragraph 132 states that the ECJ will have the final say on disputes. This extends the legal capture of the Withdrawal Agreement into the future relationship. Paragraph 135 establishes a punishment mechanism, with fines for breaches of the accord.

No mutual recognition has been secured for future trade in services. The largest part of the economy has sacrificed. The deal is tailored to the goods industry where the EU has a £92bn surplus and has most to lose.

Whatever is agreed by Parliament in coming weeks does not end the interminable argument. The May deal is a £39bn contract that merely allows us to start the next stage of discussions, when the UK will have even less leverage. As the UK’s former Brexit negotiator Sir Ivan Rogers warns, we will have our backs to the wall again when the next cliff-edge approaches.

The furore over the backstop has diverted attention from the latent menace of the Political Declaration. To the extent that there are legal assurances on the Irish issue, the language may have the side-effect (intended by Brussels) of binding us even more tightly on the future relationship. That would be the perfect double trap for the EU.

My guess is that we will end up with a formula purports to help us navigate the Irish question when in fact it is really trying to establish the perpetual jurisdiction of the ECB through the device of soft law. Watch the magician’s hands, not his face.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:48 pm

Greenmile wrote:What about, say, Lancashire (or Yorkshire, or Cornwall)? Should they have the right to independence too?

I’m not being facetious - I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
Hi Greenmile, there are parallels in the break up of Yugoslavia after Tito's death.

Lancs and Yorks, together may be significant enough to make a go of it once the fracking is fully developed. Maybe include the rest of Northern England in the new country of the north.

South West England, maybe a little on the small side - but maybe they could develop as a tax haven for all the Londoners with the "weekend" homes.

I'd rather tak a different route: move the policitiands out of their "Westminster bubble:" the 2022 Parliament to be based in the "Northern Powerhouse" - Rochdale, rather than Manchester City centre. Then North East, Sunderland, followed by somewhere south west of Bristol and then Wolverhampton or Coventry. (Maybe every 25 years, I'd agree to a return to London/South East - but Lewisham or Croydon, definietly not "the Palace of Westminster."

If the politicians would agree to these changes - and a few more - I'd be totally indifferent to how the brexit referendum was resolved, but that's because we'd have realistic MPs who would have the intelligence to do the right thing for the country. I'm no expert (just in case Lancs is reading), but I'd predict that some radical changes to the people who are currently our politicians would be an enormous boost for our economy and our living standards and the quality of our life.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:41 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Lol you can keep putting it in blocks but just keeps highlighting that you don’t understand what evidence is. Perhaps it might help if you give us your definition of “evidence” and “opinion” as it seems to be different to the one in the dictionary
I'll use yours-

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a proposition is true or valid

Opinion is a view formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. 

Conjecture is an opinion formed on the basis of incomplete information. 

Now you provide definitions of the following-

assumptions,

projections,

scenarios given varying criteria,

predictions,

assumptions

forecasts

belief,

expectation,

speculation

surmising

suspicion,

short termism.

Because not a single one of your examples that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk was "evidence". It was an example of at least one of the above.

Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:54 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I'll use yours-

Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a proposition is true or valid

Opinion is a view formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. 

Conjecture is an opinion formed on the basis of incomplete information. 

Now you provide definitions of the following-

assumptions,

projections,

scenarios given varying criteria,

predictions,

assumptions

forecasts

belief,

expectation,

speculation

surmising

suspicion,

short termism.

Because not a single one of your examples that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk was "evidence". It was an example of at least one of the above.
No don’t use mine as obviously don’t understand them, what’s your definition? Come on Tick Tock, it’s a simple question.
M

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:56 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:That is evidence that the opposition will have a penalty. Regardless of whether they score or not, is it a positive or a negative to have a penalty? Most people would suggest it’s a positive to team that it’s given to.

If you were to look at all the available facts (historical statistics) it would provide evidence that a penalty is more likely to lead to a goal than a miss or does it just provide an opinion?
When hysterical Remoaners claim "it's evidence of a certain crushing defeat" it's not. The assumption that being awarded a penalty early on in a game will define the result of that game is just that. An assumption. Not "evidence"

If you're unable to grasp the relevance of this analogy, to the claims being made about, what may turn out to be short term or reversible , business decisions as "evidence" that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk.

Then I've clearly made an assumption about your intellectual capacity and wish to reverse my original opinion. Which was, that you had some.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 am

Burnley Ace wrote:No don’t use mine as obviously don’t understand them, what’s your definition? Come on Tick Tock, it’s a simple question.
M
You're single handedly proving, that a lack of intelligence is a real handicap, when your attempting to be insulting.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:13 am

martin_p wrote:OK, so we haven't left. So the current relocations and asset transferring must be evidence that voting Leave would start to have a negative effect on companies in the UK and they'd leave.
No.

Because it makes the assumption, that they are done in isolation and other opportunities will not negate their effect. To give an overall positive effect of that brexit will have positive impact on the U.K.

I have no evidence that they will. But given it has not happened yet, neither have you.

Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:16 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You're single handedly proving, that a lack of intelligence is a real handicap, when your attempting to be insulting.
It’s a simple question What is your definition of “evidence, nothing insulting about that but it appears to be one that you are unable to answer

Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:22 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:When hysterical Remoaners claim "it's evidence of a certain crushing defeat" it's not. The assumption that being awarded a penalty early on in a game will define the result of that game is just that. An assumption. Not "evidence"

If you're unable to grasp the relevance of this analogy, to the claims being made about, what may turn out to be short term or reversible , business decisions as "evidence" that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk.

Then I've clearly made an assumption about your intellectual capacity and wish to reverse my original opinion. Which was, that you had some.
It is an assumption that only you have made! It is a really poor analogy and it doesn’t even fit your explanation!!

Even if a business leaves for a short period then that will have a negative impact until they return!

Does getting a penalty give your team an advantage? The evidence (statistical records) would suggest it does, you seem to think that’s an opinion not evidence.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 am

martin_p wrote:Given you’re against countries that are part of a union not getting their own way you’ll be for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all who voted to remain in the EU, doing just that. You’re essentially agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon.
Wales didn't vote to remain in the EU,they might now choose to do so,but in 2016 they voted for brexit,this is a major problem,England/Wales voted to leave,Scotland/NI voted to remain,hence why the country is riven with a constitutional crisis.

As far as i am aware either one or all of Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland can if they choose call an independence referendum,now if any did and Westminster denied this democratic right,then they would be entitled to feel aggrieved.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:34 am

scrambledclaret wrote:Who said anything about definitely losing the game? I think conceding an early penalty constitutes evidence that things aren't going well, which seems to a pretty good analogy for where we are with Brexit right now actually and is what people have provided. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? That is, anything that suggest things are going well? Otherwise it seems like you are conceding that things are going badly but that you expect things will magically improve in April. That would be great! Almost as good as that we came from behind via a Gifton Noel Williams hat trick!

Do you also think that Huddersfield will stay up? If so, maybe I can borrow one of those crayons and we can draw up a little wager?
I said-

Clarets concede a penalty within minutes of the game starting.

Before the pen taker even steps up.-

"It's "evidence" of an inevitable crushing defeat!!!!!" Scream the confidence lacking Remoaners.

So I said it was Remoaners claiming that what you're saying as "things aren't going well" as evidence that, because a team as conceded an early penalty the outcome of their defeat is a forgone conclusion. It's not evidence it's a misplaced assumption.

I.e. what may turn out to be just short term business decisions which Remoaners are seizing upon as evidence. Evidence that it's a forgone conclusion that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk, are nothing of the sort. They're. misplaced assumptions

Huddersfield- my opinion is they'll go down. It's an assumption. Only at the end of the season, or if it's mathematically impossible for their survival, before the end of the season. Will you be able to provide actual evidence that they've been relegated. Till then it's an opinion based on an assumption.

We have not left the European Union yet. Until we actually do, whether or not it will turn out to be positive or negative, is just an opinion / assumption.

Locked