Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:05 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Some interesting comments from focus groups this week during the Parliamentary hiatus.

Two things I take from it is that most people think the Irish backstop is a convenience rather than a necessity and that neither Leavers nor Remainers want to extend Aricle 50. I was in a group of around 30 Leavers and Remainers (mainly the latter) yesterday and most comments reflected those in this article.

https://www.conservativehome.com/highli ... roups.html
What I take out of it is that the people involved weren't that well informed on the issues. There's no reason why they should be of course, but their opinions based on the little knowledge they have should be taken with a pinch of salt.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Darthlaw wrote:As for the evidence of the forecasts which are wrong, lets see you prove where they were correct? Start with unemployment for example.
Off the top of my head, FX rates (think there was some other stuff but it's a while since I read it).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:50 pm

martin_p wrote:Again, this is Brexiteer 101. Post something and when someone asks for some proof put the onus on the other person to disprove. I'm not doing the work, you posted the bleeding thing, I assumed you understood it and hadn't just picked it up off some website without giving a moments thought as to what it meant!
Brexiteer 101? Good one. So Remainer forecast is wrong, you say it's right then I have to prove its wrong. I'm also not doing the work so lets pretend (to suit your narrative) Unemployment is up, House prices haven't risen,plus both GDP figures and average real wages are also in minus figures. Good on you!

As for the 'house sale' scenario - I'm illustrating a point to excess. If you're that confident that this is going to take a downturn then put your money where your mouth is.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Brexiteer 101? Good one. So Remainer forecast is wrong, you say it's right then I have to prove its wrong. I'm also not doing the work so lets pretend (to suit your narrative) Unemployment is up, House prices haven't risen,plus both GDP figures and average real wages are also in minus figures. Good on you!

As for the 'house sale' scenario - I'm illustrating a point to excess. If you're that confident that this is going to take a downturn then put your money where your mouth is.
I'll try for the third time. Where I have said that it's defintely right? (and for that matter where have I asked you to prove it's wrong). That's your modus operandi, not mine.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by quoonbeatz » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:56 pm

the 'Germany+' deal looks like a decent one.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:59 pm

Clearly you are that dim after all. I addressed this earlier:
'Not a 'definitely right', but the remaining paragraph painted a very dismal future all based upon if's, maybe's and could's.'

So I've answered yours, you now show me where any one of the HM Treasury's predictions were even remotely correct?

I'll accept Aggi's Forex predicion which has dropped by approx 10% since June 2016, or been restored to pre 2014 levels depending upon your outlook.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Brexiteer 101? Good one. So Remainer forecast is wrong, you say it's right then I have to prove its wrong. I'm also not doing the work so lets pretend (to suit your narrative) Unemployment is up, House prices haven't risen,plus both GDP figures and average real wages are also in minus figures. Good on you!

As for the 'house sale' scenario - I'm illustrating a point to excess. If you're that confident that this is going to take a downturn then put your money where your mouth is.
And your comments on the figures somewhat prove my point about not having understood what you posted. The GDP figures are a comparison against the baseline figures, those figures being the OBR growth forecasts. So it wasn't saying there'd be no growth to GDP, just less growth than if we'd remained. The other figures are similarly compared to a baseline.

Given you don't seem to care about understanding what you're posting, here's the figures showing that the predictions that GDP growth would slow were broadly correct

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-accura ... eferendum/
Last edited by martin_p on Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:05 pm

When the United States entered the Vietnam War it was to “defend freedom” and after it became quite apparent that the South Vietnamese regime wasn’t democratic and it’s people not free, Nixon made the frank announcement that; “we’re there because we’re there” This is where we are with the Brexit situation. It’s all a big mess, but we voted for this mess and it’s what we’re going to get.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:17 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Clearly you are that dim after all. I addressed this earlier:
'Not a 'definitely right', but the remaining paragraph painted a very dismal future all based upon if's, maybe's and could's.'
You know the meaning of the word forecast right? Of course it's ifs maybes and coulds. But as I've said before, there's less ifs and maybes in the latest forecats than the pre referendum ones.

Besides, in the words of a learned scholar 'you can't provide evdience from something that hasn't happened'.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:32 pm

martin_p wrote:What I take out of it is that the people involved weren't that well informed on the issues. There's no reason why they should be of course, but their opinions based on the little knowledge they have should be taken with a pinch of salt.
That is true but it applies to 90% of the voting base in any election.

It is understandable that most people tune out of the wrangling and just have a vague knowledge of the backstop, the money we are due to pay, and the future trading relationship. That’s why referenda are about big strategic issues and manifestos are about broad directions of travel. It does not make those votes meaningless.

The public are fully aware that they have voted to:

a) Leave the EU in the referendum
b) Leave the single market and customs union in the 2017 election (e.g. Labour’s manifesto said we would not be a member of either, as did the Tory manifesto, Labour’s said we would try to retain some of the benefits)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:51 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is true but it applies to 90% of the voting base in any election
Which is why single issue referendums aren’t generally a good idea.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:00 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is true but it applies to 90% of the voting base in any election.

...

The public are fully aware that they have voted to:

a) ....
b) Leave the single market and customs union in the 2017 election (e.g. Labour’s manifesto said we would not be a member of either, as did the Tory manifesto, Labour’s said we would try to retain some of the benefits)
I'm not at all convinced this is the case.

A large number of people weren't interested enough to go into the detail of things like customs unions and single markets. (See how easily a number of prominent leave campaigners rowed back from their original comments that we'd still be part of one or the other and most people didn't blink an eyelid).

Add to that Labour complicated things by committing to being part of a (not the) customs union in the manifesto.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:15 pm

The head of the leave campaign essentially attributes victory to single sentence Facebook ads which were factually/truthfully dubious.
[Note: Yes a question can't be lie but it can be based on a false premise.]

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by keith1879 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:03 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:That is true but it applies to 90% of the voting base in any election.

It is understandable that most people tune out of the wrangling and just have a vague knowledge of the backstop, the money we are due to pay, and the future trading relationship. That’s why referenda are about big strategic issues and manifestos are about broad directions of travel. It does not make those votes meaningless.

The public are fully aware that they have voted to:

a) Leave the EU in the referendum
b) Leave the single market and customs union in the 2017 election (e.g. Labour’s manifesto said we would not be a member of either, as did the Tory manifesto, Labour’s said we would try to retain some of the benefits)
With regard to (b) I would have thought that in the situation where both main parties have "promised" (Threatened??) the same thing you can hardly say that the public voted for it. But equally - i accept they didn't vote against it.

Personally I'm sick of the whole thing but that is no reason to just throw in the towel and accept a dreadful outcome (which I think is what "No deal" would be). It's up to parliament (as our representatives) to get the thing done in a way that is best (or least worst) for the country. An extension of article 50 for a few months while they sort things out is negligible when you think about the scale of the possible long term effects.

I'm totally convinced that membership of the EU was and still is in our best interests but failing that we have to leave in the most orderly way we can. The only reason for another referendum is if Parliament cannot reach a conclusion. I do worry that Theresa will get a conclusion by appealing ever further to the right wing of her party - so that what started out as an exercise in trying to reduce disunity within a political party and developed into a national discussion that split the electorate almost exactly down the middle will eventually be concluded with another 50/50 split in parliament. What a mess.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:48 am

keith1879 wrote:With regard to (b) I would have thought that in the situation where both main parties have "promised" (Threatened??) the same thing you can hardly say that the public voted for it. But equally - i accept they didn't vote against it.

Personally I'm sick of the whole thing but that is no reason to just throw in the towel and accept a dreadful outcome (which I think is what "No deal" would be). It's up to parliament (as our representatives) to get the thing done in a way that is best (or least worst) for the country. An extension of article 50 for a few months while they sort things out is negligible when you think about the scale of the possible long term effects.

I'm totally convinced that membership of the EU was and still is in our best interests but failing that we have to leave in the most orderly way we can. The only reason for another referendum is if Parliament cannot reach a conclusion. I do worry that Theresa will get a conclusion by appealing ever further to the right wing of her party - so that what started out as an exercise in trying to reduce disunity within a political party and developed into a national discussion that split the electorate almost exactly down the middle will eventually be concluded with another 50/50 split in parliament. What a mess.
I would agree with that, with two caveats:

For me, the “dreadful” outcomes would be a) not having our own independant trade policy (i.e. we must be out of the CU) and b) a prolonged “no deal” situation, prolonged being the key word. That basically rules out the two extreme views at either end of it.

A “no deal” for, say, a week or two would be chaotic but not damaging to the real person in the street. You cannot imagine a scenario where we conduct full customs checks and tariffs on a Wednesday but not the Monday or Friday either side. It would be impossible for the tax authorities and others. I suspect nothing would change and some quick agreements would be signed to limit the chaos while a deal is agreed. Certainly the UK would wave everything through so shelves would remain stocked, the EU may not but would struggle logistically if they chose to make an example of us, and it would be their people and manufacturers who wouldn’t get the stock they need. Yes there are WTO rules but they don’t have to be applied on minute 1.

I do though think there is a risk that brinksmanship would result in us blinking and accepting a worse deal, or it would be prolonged with neither side conceding anything. That’s why I now want her deal to go through as long as there is some kind of limitation on the backstop.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:12 am

Under what possibly scenario would a "No Deal" outcome only last a week? Asking as someone who hasn't seen anything remotely like that from absolutely anyone.

But though I agree that Mays deal is better than the "No Deal" and I still reluctantly back it, I'm less than impressed with the way she is trying to railroad it through parliament.

As one of the main reasons we are leaving is for control of parliament, completely trying to ignore it with the threat of a No Deal if her deal isn't passed is appalling politics
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:23 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Under what possibly scenario would a "No Deal" outcome only last a week? Asking as someone who hasn't seen anything remotely like that from absolutely anyone.

But though I agree that Mays deal is better than the "No Deal" and I still reluctantly back it, I'm less than impressed with the way she is trying to railroad it through parliament.

As one of the main reasons we are leaving is for control of parliament, completely trying to ignore it with the threat of a No Deal if her deal isn't passed is appalling politics
This is what I don’t understand about the Brexiteer position. On one hand they won’t support May’s deal because we’ll be trapped in the backstop forever, a backstop that is only activated if we haven’t agreed a trade deal by the end of 2020, then on the other hand argue deals can be wrapped up in a matter of weeks if we go no deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:32 am

Add that to the forecasts they all tell you that the EU is in real trouble and will collapse, but mention forecasts that suggest this might not be a good idea and its all "Project Fear".

Pretty depressing really.

Looking like the meaningful vote is not going to take place till March 17th, which as the ERG won't be satisfied by anything, means a "No Deal" unless parliament gets its act together.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:41 am

martin_p wrote:This is what I don’t understand about the Brexiteer position. On one hand they won’t support May’s deal because we’ll be trapped in the backstop forever, a backstop that is only activated if we haven’t agreed a trade deal by the end of 2020, then on the other hand argue deals can be wrapped up in a matter of weeks if we go no deal.
Maybe they understand that a no deal as bad as it is, is as bad, if not worse, for Germany, Italy, France.........
The countries of Europe want a deal, all of them, the only thing preventing it is the EU, who atypical want to punish Britain, even at the expense of the rest of Europe.
The reasons why they act like that are obvious and also well covered already.
Maybe a No deal Brexit would get pressure applied to the EU from within , to sort this mess out. It would be dangerous for them to ignore, as anti EU parties rise in the polls all over Europe.

It's one of the reasons I voted leave, but ask yourself, are the EU acting on behalf of the people of Europe, or on behalf the Federal States of Europe. There's a conflict of interest there, that the people of Europe are suffering the consequences of. Just ask any one the many people of those countries benefiting from the all powerful trade deals made by the EU, that are living in recession.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:47 am

Its completely pointless when someone keeps repeating stuff that is blatantly not true with all the confidence of someone who just doesn't care that he's not got a scooby doo what he's talking about.

- There isn't an federal Europe, that is a Brexiteer Myth
- The opinion polls in the EU about EU membership completely destroy your view of it
- We get hit the hardest, and the north the hardest of all

YOu are making stuff up to justify your position, You (and others) have been doing it since Day 1.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:12 am

martin_p wrote:This is what I don’t understand about the Brexiteer position. On one hand they won’t support May’s deal because we’ll be trapped in the backstop forever, a backstop that is only activated if we haven’t agreed a trade deal by the end of 2020, then on the other hand argue deals can be wrapped up in a matter of weeks if we go no deal.
What bit of we would have no chance if getting a good deal when all the EU have to do is refuse to play ball don't you get when there is no limit to a backstop?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:16 am

Labour don't like the backstop either. The only mps that do are remainers that want to deny us leaving un any meaningful way

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

summitclaret wrote:What bit of we would have no chance if getting a good deal when all the EU have to do is refuse to play ball don't you get when there is no limit to a backstop?
We have no chance of getting a good deal irrespective of backstop conspiracy theories.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:35 am

martin_p wrote:We have no chance of getting a good deal irrespective of backstop conspiracy theories.
Come on then martin_p, tell us *why* we have no chance of getting a good deal.

Go ahead.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 am

Rowls wrote:Come on then martin_p, tell us *why* we have no chance of getting a good deal.

Go ahead.
Because we have the best deal possible with the EU, nothing else can be considered ‘good’.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Pstotto » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:40 am

Have You Heard The One About The...?

Dover H.M. Customs and Passport Control,
Folkestone Irish Backstop.

Gatwick H.M. Customs and Passport Control,
Heathrow Irish Backstop.

Plymouth H.M. Customs and Passport Control,
Porstmouth Irish Backstop.

Tilbury H.M. Customs and Passport Control,
Immingham Irish Backstop.

Soon to be an episode on Jakers children's TV series....
Last edited by Pstotto on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by keith1879 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:42 am

Rowls wrote:Come on then martin_p, tell us *why* we have no chance of getting a good deal.

Go ahead.
Welll I can't prove the point and wouldn't claim to be particularly knowledgable ......but for me it's the simple facts(oft-repeated) that we are a smaller party in a bi-party discussion and that the other side wishes to discourage other members from doing the same thing.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:44 am

We should consider the "Germany +" option. Sounds good.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:44 am

martin_p wrote:Because we have the best deal possible with the EU, nothing else can be considered ‘good’.
OK, just evade the question.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:47 am

keith1879 wrote:Welll I can't prove the point and wouldn't claim to be particularly knowledgable ......but for me it's the simple facts(oft-repeated) that we are a smaller party in a bi-party discussion and that the other side wishes to discourage other members from doing the same thing.
That's exactly what I think the EU is thinking too.

It's an admission that the EU is incapable of negotiating in good faith isn't it?

Why wouldn't they give us a good deal - to prevent others from leaving. So they're willing to spite their own sovereign nation state members to scare them into staying within the political club?

It's pretty much the reason why we're leaving.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by keith1879 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Under what possibly scenario would a "No Deal" outcome only last a week? Asking as someone who hasn't seen anything remotely like that from absolutely anyone.

But though I agree that Mays deal is better than the "No Deal" and I still reluctantly back it, I'm less than impressed with the way she is trying to railroad it through parliament.

As one of the main reasons we are leaving is for control of parliament, completely trying to ignore it with the threat of a No Deal if her deal isn't passed is appalling politics
Agree 100%. Another point about the "no deal" position is that it looks like a deliberate policy of thumbing our noses at the EU .....after negotiating with them for two years. While messrs farage (hates them) Rees-Mogg (too rich to care about them) and Johnson (will jump whichever way seemes most politically advantageous) may embrace the idea of kicking sand in the faces of France, Germany, Holland , Italy et al it strikes me as an action that might be dismissed as "not choosing wisely" (to slightly misquote the knight in the Indiana Jones film).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 am

What?

No pics of uber remainers singing or in the buff?

Must have been a good day for Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by keith1879 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:51 am

Rowls wrote:That's exactly what I think the EU is thinking too.

It's an admission that the EU is incapable of negotiating in good faith isn't it?

Why wouldn't they give us a good deal - to prevent others from leaving. So they're willing to spite their own sovereign nation state members to scare them into staying within the political club?

It's pretty much the reason why we're leaving.
So we're leaving a powerful trading block and impoverishing ourselves to make a political debating point?? OK - I know that's not what you are really saying but in the end I just think it's "better together....weaker apart".

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What?

No pics of uber remainers singing or in the buff?

Must have been a good day for Brexit.
Dr Bateman was back on telly, getting her tits and her muff out again.

She got pixelated out. Plenty of clips of Richard Finnigan being hilarious about the whole thing.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Its completely pointless when someone keeps repeating stuff that is blatantly not true with all the confidence of someone who just doesn't care that he's not got a scooby doo what he's talking about.

- There isn't an federal Europe, that is a Brexiteer Myth
- The opinion polls in the EU about EU membership completely destroy your view of it
- We get hit the hardest, and the north the hardest of all

YOu are making stuff up to justify your position, You (and others) have been doing it since Day 1.
I don't make anything up, I just use my logic and common sense to come up with my opinion. I never state anything as a fact unless it can be proved. Using logic........
We import more from Europe than we export, so explain to us uninitiated how failing to make a trade deal affects us adversely, MORE than it does the rest of Europe.
Explain to the unitiated why a trading bloc needs a single currency, a single flag, a single army, a single parliament, an overriding judicial system. On this issue you really do have your head stuck in a dark hole. It's patently obvious the EU is much more than a trading bloc, and the people in power , not the ones elected, have had a single aim for 20 years.

You like me, haven't a clue who is going to get hit the hardest, no bloody idea. You just choose to believe the doom mongers that tell you so. Where's your bloody EVIDENCE , that it's going to be the North hit hardest. You haven't got any, because there isn't any, just someone else's opinion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:55 am

keith1879 wrote:So we're leaving a powerful trading block and impoverishing ourselves to make a political debating point?? OK - I know that's not what you are really saying but in the end I just think it's "better together....weaker apart".
Not at all, we're leaving a bloc which is incapable of striking quick and easy trade deals outside its borders, which insists on riding roughshod over nation states' sovereignty, which has entangled itself in a disastrous single currency, has become increasingly political and is incapable of negotiating in good faith.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:56 am

Jesus

You do not have a clue.

No wonder this country is ******. You can't do anything with a sizeable proportion of the population refuse to accept that what they believe is completely wrong.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:58 am

How many free trade deals have we negotiated in two years Rowls?

With us all being so super good at striking quick and easy trade deals and all?

(warning, Rowls next post might contain deflection tactics)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:58 am

Our ultimate trump card - the threat of a no deal Brexit - is gradually bringing EU and UK Labour politicians to their senses.

The ball is now firmly in the EU court and their choice is to allow us a 2-3 year expiry date on the backstop or risk plunging the EU and the UK into recession by allowing a no deal Brexit to happen by default.

The stakes are extremely high and the time for political games is over.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:58 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:How many free trade deals have we negotiated in two years Rowls?

With us all being so super good at striking quick and easy trade deals and all?

(warning, Rowls next post might contain deflection tactics)
We're not allowed to negotiate trade deals Lancaster!

That's why we're leaving!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:00 am

Yes we are Rowls.

We just implement them after we leave.

(as warned, deflection tactics)

Now, how many have we managed to negotiate in two years?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:08 am

Well Lancs, here's my final post today because this debate has been going round and round for a long time now.

We both know both sides of the debate and we both know which side won the referendum.

You say something like "but we haven't signed any trade deals!" or something such and I say "but hang on, we cannot sign ANY trade deals if we remain in the EU.

If we remain in the EU we are beholden on EU negotiators negotiating trade deals for us which require unanimous agreement of 27 nation states so, for example, if we want a free trade deal with the US we are at the mercy of Slovenian diary farmers, French vineyards, artisan Belgian chocolatiers, Italian cheese makers .... etc

You think it's best to cede this part of our sovereignty to the EU, whereas I (and the majority of the electorate) thought it better to take back control of this function of the nation state.

We've been here before.

The debate was won (and lost).

That's your lot from me today in terms of actually engaging you because it's just yet more of the hot air roundabout.

This thread is more fun with embarrassing pictures of desperate Remainers banging on about immigration, singing Ode to Joy and wearing silly costumes.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:10 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:What?

No pics of uber remainers singing or in the buff?

Must have been a good day for Brexit.
As requested:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 64031.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:14 am

So how many deals have we signed Rowls?

Two years, with us being free from all the shackles of those hopeless bods in the EU?

Come on mate, its not hard.

You should have done what you do normally when presented with the facts that your position is hilarious wrong and just logged off mate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:16 am

Here's some Remain supporters dressed as bananas (for some reason)

Image

Here's a lovely, not at all embarrassing set piece involving dressing up as Theresa May

Image

And here are some people dressed up as Alice in Wonderland (for some reason)

Image

Although admittedly, one of them may be EU Supergirl by the looks of it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:20 am

How many deals in two years Rowls?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:23 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Jesus

You do not have a clue.

No wonder this country is ******. You can't do anything with a sizeable proportion of the population refuse to accept that what they believe is completely wrong.
Youre losing your grip, and the argument, its the only explanatio for not quoting me in your replies.

Let me put another way in order for you to take the blinkers off.

Suppose it was Frexit, and we were staying in. The French want a deal but the EU are having none of it. They are forcing the French into a No Deal scenario. That would mean that in future Britain would have to pay tarrifs to export to France, and have to fill in lots more paperwork in order to carry on trading with France. Would that make businesses in Britain happier or not with the EU, would it endear the voters of Britain to the EU or not.
I'll say again, they aren't doing what is in the best interests of the people, they are doing what they deem is best for that Federal States of Europe you live in denial of.
Now in the supposition, IF enough countries feel the same way as we would, then the pressure is on, but on the EU not France.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Darthlaw » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:31 am

Lancaster - legally we can negotiate deals, however how do you negotiate them when you have no idea when they can kick in? Until we have a date for separation then we can't put any plans in place.

Imagine you're separating from your Mrs but she won't divorce you. How do you plan to marry the next Mrs Lancaster, when the first one refuses to let go? Of course you can start to make the arrangements but you can't actually ratify it unless the old partner lets you go.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:32 am

no one forces anyone into a No Deal scenario. This is 100% self inflicted.

That is 100% unarguable

We currently have the best deal possible with the EU.

We are losing that, and that is our fault. It is not, cannot be, never will be, the fault of the EU, or remainers, or the remoaner elite, or anything else.

It is our fault. Once you accept that , you then move on to the EU founding principles.

Once you've understood them, then you understand the deal that was promised (and even the one we are trying to do now) is never going to pass. I know that, again, it only takes a tiny bit of reading to understand that.

We are leaving them. We need them more than they need us, and its up to us to make sure that this is as painless as possible.

If its as painful as its possible to be, then I'll be blaming people like you who refuse to accept that they are wrong and refuse to do any research that might prove them wrong.

The politicians we have are representatives of our democracy. Far too many of them are like you (ie incapable of admitting that they are wrong and they don't know enough about it).
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rowls » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:36 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:How many deals in two years Rowls?
OK, let's bite. Let's go round the circle again.

I think 2 possibly set up & ready to go.

But how many deals do you think it feasible to set up before we know what kind of restriction our old EU membership will place on our future? We don't yet know if we are still going to be entangled in membership of the customs union or the regulations to the single market.

Don't you realise how ridiculous your argument is? - You're trying to fight your battle on 100% win territory for the Leave side!

So you think that because we -currently- don't have many trade deals that this is a bad thing? Then why on earth would you support an entity like the EU? The EU is chronically incapable of trade deals outside its own customs union. It takes them years and years and years to strike deals that independent nations can draw up in months. Many of the EU's attempted deals collapse unfinished because the EU cannot agree on what it wants.

You really think that arguing on trade deals is a strong point for a Remainer?

You're as daft as the blokes I overheard in the pub during the referendum campaign bemoaning that fact that we would "lose EU grants" if we left the EU!

I started this thread just to point out how tiresome and silly so much of the Remain argument had become.

I'd like to thank you for contributing with such good grace.

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