Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:16 pm

https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1100124666054746114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty conclusive as I'm sure she has never said that before.

Course, its a long way to go and some serious **** ups by Brexiteers to get to that stage, but one thing this government in general, and the Brexit backing bit of it are good at, are ******* things up.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:16 pm

summitclaret wrote:If this leads to a second vote between the deal as first voted on and remain it will be the biggest betrayal of the british public ever. Imagine something trashed by 230 votes v something defeated in the biggest ever public vote. The ultimate betrayal and asking for big trouble.

If there is to be any vote it should be do you accept a deal yes or no with a sub question on if leave should it be x y or z. With x y and z probably being Norway plus, Canada plus and managed no deal if the EU won't agree one.

People just voted in or out, no mention at the time that the vote may be morphed into something else 2+ years down the road, at the time I should imagine lots of people just voted & thought that’s it & why would people think any different.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:18 pm

Because some people have actually listened to stuff over the last two years perhaps?

You have to remember that you two are very, very, very good at ignoring stuff you don't want to hear. There is a significant percentage of the population who do wonder if they made the right decision.

I never pretend that everyone shares my views, but you do when it comes to Brexit. Its well weird.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:18 pm

summitclaret wrote:If this leads to a second vote between the deal as first voted on and remain it will be the biggest betrayal of the british public ever. Imagine something trashed by 230 votes v something defeated in the biggest ever public vote. The ultimate betrayal and asking for big trouble.

If there is to be any vote it should be do you accept a deal yes or no with a sub question on if leave should it be x y or z. With x y and z probably being Norway plus, Canada plus and managed no deal if the EU won't agree one.

They’d just accept that democracy means sometimes you lose surely?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:19 pm

Labour are simply kicking the can down the road to stop further defections. They know 61% of their constituencies voted Leave.

I actually think today has made a public vote much more likely, but not that kind - a General Election. May will go for one as soon as she extends A50 by 2 months and has breathing space, Corbyn poisioned by the defections, antisemitism and now being tarred as a closet People’s Vote supporter which would have to go in his new manifesto if she calls an election. There is a chance this could give May the majority to do whatever she chooses in the trade talks. If I were her I would take that chance.

I choose not to get too bothered about current talks, whatever happens is likely to be something we don’t predict.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Well, I guess we will see.

Said the same to claretandy on twitter, the reason we've got to this stage is the desire of the uber Brexiteers to push for their personal vision of Brexit, rather than a compromise.

If this doesn't wake them up from the complacency they show in that nothing changes the vote, then nothing will and their dreams could end up in ashes.

Don't agree. The mess is because ever since the day after the vote establishment figures have enabled the EU to not have to negotiate seriously. I include May as part of that. I was very clear when voting that we wanted to distance ourselves from the EU in a planned way.

I would rather stay in for now than leave in name only. Most of the erg ate simply holding out for what most people understood leaving meant and i don't mean no deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:22 pm

That is one thing I can agree with that you cannot predict anything from here.

May won't risk another election though. It solves nothing, and would be seen as another cynical attempt to take advantage of Labs problems.

It failed badly enough last time.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:23 pm

How can you still say that after two years though Summit.

Its as clear as clear can be the the ERG since the election (100% Mays fault that one) have decided to go all out for the "No Deal".

They are the only ones stopping this May deal going through. Its that obvious.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:How can you still say that after two years though Summit.

Its as clear as clear can be the the ERG since the election (100% Mays fault that one) have decided to go all out for the "No Deal".

They are the only ones stopping this May deal going through. Its that obvious.

where's the evidence that the ERG want No deal ?

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:26 pm

RIP Steptoe and Labour...

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:27 pm

There is one deal on the table andy.

The alternative is "No Deal".

Both you and summit are not thinking straight at the moment.

Go and have a walk around, Brexit is still going to happen as long the ERG and DUP back Mays deal.

Keep the faith eh?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:28 pm

This is a big step

But it does not matter if the ERG and the DUP back Mays deal.

Time for them to think what is more important to them.

And remember I reluctantly back Mays deal, but I back a 2nd ref over "No Deal"

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:30 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because some people have actually listened to stuff over the last two years perhaps?

You have to remember that you two are very, very, very good at ignoring stuff you don't want to hear. There is a significant percentage of the population who do wonder if they made the right decision.

I never pretend that everyone shares my views, but you do when it comes to Brexit. Its well weird.

People have just been systematically & incessantly barraged with nonsense since the vote got called, in desperate attempts to overthrow the will of the people, a significant percentage of the population are just bored with politics in general & I daresay plenty will be happy when this is over & they can hear the end of it. Some people with busy lifestyles juggling this that & the other about won’t be that bothered either way, just sick to the back teeth of it.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:31 pm

Mays deal is NOT Brexit. Its a trap and almost every mp has said it is no good with the current backstop. Why on earth would anyone vote for it.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:31 pm

AndyClaret wrote:where's the evidence that the ERG want No deal ?

So you don't have any evidence ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:33 pm

Apart from what I've just said.

No one andy, and I MEAN NO ONE, wants a 20 pager with you arguing that the ERG not voting for the only deal leaving us with just the "No Deal" isn't evidence.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:37 pm

I don't do 20 pagers, i just pull people up who make false statements that they can't back up.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:41 pm

But you will be, because you are talking rubbish, and thats a red rag to a bull with me on here.

There is one deal on offer

The ERG are not voting for it

So that means "No Deal"

Like I said, you are overwrought at the moment.

Have a horlicks, calm down a bit and think about this.

Just google lots and lots of Brexiteers telling us that "No Deal is nothing to worry about".

I mean you are wrong a lot on here, but not normally this wrong.

This is epic levels of potential failure here.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:People have just been systematically & incessantly barraged with nonsense since the vote got called, in desperate attempts to overthrow the will of the people, a significant percentage of the population are just bored with politics in general & I daresay plenty will be happy when this is over & they can hear the end of it. Some people with busy lifestyles juggling this that & the other about won’t be that bothered either way, just sick to the back teeth of it.

And? What's your point?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:54 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:And? What's your point?

Refuting Lancaster’s claim a significant amount of people have redecided & I was putting forward a alternative script of people are just bored & want a end to it. It is possible some have changed due to the brainwashing 2+ years on, but you could also argue some people are even more determined due to the sinister spin.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:00 pm

It’s going so well it’s difficult to see people changing their minds.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:04 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:It’s going so well it’s difficult to see people changing their minds.

We all should have known the EU wouldn’t make it easy, the good old gravy train that we are.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:07 pm

The ERG don’t want no deal. They want a free trade deal. But they don’t want this to be ruined by handcuffs applied due to us signing the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration.

For example, this chapter in the Political Declaration is likely to have upset them:

The future relationship must ensure open and fair competition. Provisions to ensure this should cover state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters, building on the level playing field arrangements provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement and commensurate with the overall economic relationship.

It is all very well saying the PA is non binding, but it will be hard to shift too far from it. Despite that though, the ERG have promised to vote for May’s deal if the backstop is removed. They aren’t “hard right” - that is just a convenient charicature by Arch-Remainer MPs.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:08 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:We all should have known the EU wouldn’t make it easy, the good old gravy train that we are.

Aye. It’s them lot that are the problem.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:14 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:We all should have known the EU wouldn’t make it easy.

Yep and Im sure most people did although I sort of remember one group of people telling us how easy it would be 2 years ago. Oh well at least they must have been shown up as idiots who noone takes any notice of nowadays

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:14 pm

Crosspool

There is one deal on offer

Mays deal

The only other thing on offer is a "No Deal"

I'll say the same thing as I said to andy, just google all the Brexiteer ERG members telling us "No Deal is nothing to fear".

The ERG want a "No Deal".

Thats why this Brexit is getting closer and closer to getting frustrated, because they (like summit, like andy, like you, like jakub) assume that everyone thinks like they do.

They are going to have to realise that the only Brexit option is the May deal, and then work on their position after we have left.

If they insist on their current course, then they risk their Brexit, and if its gone, then Brexit will be gone for a couple of generations at least.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:16 pm

(sigh)...for the millionth time, there won't be a Brexit.

The intelligent will fix the mistakes of the stupid, just like they always have.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:17 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Aye. It’s them lot that are the problem.

The mass debts are putting people off, I can’t blame some people for being wary, it’s a money pit whichever way you look at it.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:48 pm

Don't tell me what i think. I have never argued for no deal. Almost all erg members have said they would vote fir May's deal without being in a trap. Why are you not listening to what they actually say?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:02 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Refuting Lancaster’s claim a significant amount of people have redecided & I was putting forward a alternative script of people are just bored & want a end to it. It is possible some have changed due to the brainwashing 2+ years on, but you could also argue some people are even more determined due to the sinister spin.

This was posted on the previous page

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:07 pm

Betrayal has been a long time coming but it’s just around the corner now, not long to wait.

52>48% was the clear democratic result ( you know all the details and the stories). ‘Out means Out’ just do that, that’s what the vote said.. nothing else, no BS, no weasel words, no flim flam, no excuses, no lies, no two-faced nonsense.

Just do what we brazenly voted for... how dare we?
How dare we use our ( reluctantly given) one person one vote, and vote the wrong way.

We were NEVER going to get the result we voted for?
That would never have been allowed.
There was never any proper democracy seen through on this one.
I knew exactly what I was voting for.
I’m educated, I read about it... I listened, I voted.
Our votes have been ignored.

I was then told every day from 24/6/2016, I was stupid and racist, and I had not understood what I was doing by smug arrogant prIcks out there and on here.

The EU and UK Establishment were NEVER going to allow a proper Brexit.

Untold incalculable damage will be done to UK politics/ UK democracy and our way of life for a considerable period as a result of the incoming undemocratic fiasco... the end-game is not that far away.

The EU is a monstrous failing institution as we will all realise in the next decade.
That’s me done.

I don’t intend to say much more than this, got that stuff off my chest.

Total BETRAYAL...52>48% is clear cut, nothing else to say.
No more weasel words, I’ve heard enough.
** People’s Vote

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:08 pm

For those thinking that labour potentially switching to backing a second referendum will kill them off at the next election, research has possibly shown that there aren't that many seats where this would impact them (and there is the promise of picking up seats from the lib dems and in pro-remain Tory seats).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-remain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I looked at this at the time I couldn't find the underlying methodology so you may want to take it with a pinch of salt but I'd imagine the labour party will be looking at the figures in a similar way.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:I was then told every day from 24/6/2019, I was stupid and racist, and I had not understood what I was doing by smug arrogant prIcks out there and on here

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:14 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:(sigh)...for the millionth time, there won't be a Brexit.

The intelligent will fix the mistakes of the stupid, just like they always have.

Such a sweeping statement about the intelligence of 52% of those who voted in the referendum.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:15 pm

Many Labour MPs would lose their seats if they ever voted for a 2nd referendum which reassures me that that particular scenario isn't going to happen

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:19 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Many Labour MPs would lose their seats if they ever voted for a 2nd referendum which reassures me that that particular scenario isn't going to happen

Said with such certainty when it sounds a lot like conjecture and unsubstantiated speculation to me

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:19 pm

Well, I think if this goes south, Hampers posts is a cracking start to the Brexiteer meltdown.

EDIT - you've all got absolutely nothing to worry about, this just concentrates the ERGs mind on what to do.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:27 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Such a sweeping statement about the intelligence of 52% of those who voted in the referendum.

Indeed, the irony of the arrogance is why they’ve found themselves in this pickle in the first place.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm

aggi wrote:This was posted on the previous page

I don’t care for the graphs & charts or what the experts say to be perfectly honest as I know it’s all designed to dupe the brexiteers & the 1s doubting to sway, I’ve mentioned this before so why you consider this relevant in countering my post, I’ve no idea.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm

That's how it might appear to you, let's see how it plays out

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:55 pm

That chart has an almost perfect correlation to the degree of perceived chaos in the negotiations. When things settle down we may well see a very different picture. Government cannot simply change policy based on how annoyed people are in the moment.

Separately referring to Lancaster’s above reply to me on the ERG wanting “no deal” because May’s deal is the only offer on the table, I would say this:

There is no “offer”. This is a negotiation not a house sale. The negotiation remains active because it has not yet been ratified by all parties, and like it or not, the EU must accept it is not now the U.K. Government but the U.K. Parliament they have to win over. The ERG are simply seeking leverage in that negotiation by pulling May in one direction while her Remainer chums are pulling her in the other.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:18 pm

When canvassing opinion to collate this chart, was it broad based amongst all sections of society or outside colleges & universities.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:41 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:When canvassing opinion to collate this chart, was it broad based amongst all sections of society or outside colleges & universities.

Source data states it was a completely diverse cross section of Gender Studies students from Edinburgh University so in answer to your question - Yes it was broad based

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:44 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Source data states it was a completely diverse cross section of Gender Studies students from Edinburgh University so in answer to your question - Yes it was broad based

Thanks, students & university, pretty much tells me what I wanted to know.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:19 am

I found Ringo's Twitter account.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... way/25/02/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:40 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because some people have actually listened to stuff over the last two years perhaps?

You have to remember that you two are very, very, very good at ignoring stuff you don't want to hear. There is a significant percentage of the population who do wonder if they made the right decision.

I never pretend that everyone shares my views, but you do when it comes to Brexit. Its well weird.

If there's a new vote!.....remain will win, in a landslide!

jackmiggins · Post by **jackmiggins** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:44 am

Don’t you realize that this prevarication is playing into the hands of the EU? A few more months & we’ll be eternally bound in any case & the referendum will be no more than dust. Can’t wait for our economy being run from Frankfurt - thanks for remoaning, I’m sure that our grandchildren will honour you for your lilly livered motives!!!

jackmiggins · Post by **jackmiggins** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:52 am

Taffy on the wing - don’t you know that in a few months time we won’t be able to vote again? We’ll be tied in to the EU with no possible escape. Start learning German, as your tax will be heading for Frankfurt. Thanks !!

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:02 am

No deal just as popular as a second vote

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:53 am

Jakubclaret wrote:I don’t care for the graphs & charts or what the experts say to be perfectly honest...

An almost perfect distillation of how (some) brexiters think, there.

And when you point it out, all the snowflakes go...

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Such a sweeping statement about the intelligence of 52% of those who voted in the referendum.