Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:48 am

Lancs may find the civil service debate tiresome, but that doesn’t make it untrue.

I have experience of more than one Whitehall department, and seriously, these folk would struggle to boil an egg. They love rules, regulations and status quo. They hate initiative, instinct and risk taking. They are as anti Brexit as it gets. Many are trying to frustrate it. Others simply can’t envisage it. Neither helps.

I simply cannot picture the people I know putting a strategy in place to make the best of Brexit. Most of them work 9-5 and spend the bulk of their working life day-dreaming of their pensions.

Actually, I don’t mind them fighting their corner. They are at risk when the purge comes. Draining the swamp, I think Trump called it. Only fair they should stand their ground. A smaller, more dynamic Whitehall with a different mindset is what we need.

Change is coming. The only thing we don’t know, is when.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:53 am

Oh, by the way, after I’ve been to Tory conference this year for a laugh (£50 early booking), I’ll be handing in my membership and taking out membership of the SDP.

Last year they had £2k turnover and in 2017 put up 6 candidates across the 600+ seats.

It seems a bit like a non neo-liberal New Labour. The economic balance with more of a commutarian, family, nation-state ethos. Hopefully they’ll grow, but I suspect I’ll find it very cleansing anyway. This is their list of revised values:

https://sdp.org.uk/new-declaration/

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:58 am

Spiral wrote:Those two fairly reasonable but obvious points don't actually do anything to address the issue I had with your blatant mischaracterisation of remainer intent and your suggestion that remain voters would be, to use your word, "pleased", with vassalage for the sake of ending the debate. It's offensive, quite frankly, because it plays into this [deleted] narrative that remainers somehow care less for the well-being of the country than you, or that I favour the EU over my own country, or that remainers would sabotage the nation in order to take down brexit, or that we're traitors or quislings. But you seem to be distancing yourself from that earlier point with your last post, so there we go. If we leave with either May's deal or no-deal at 22:59:59 on March 29th, the remainer campaign for rejoining the EU and the brexiteer campaign for withdrawing from the withdrawal will begin at 23:00:01 the very same day. Nothing will make this go away.

Actually, what I said what that Remainers will be pleased because the situation basically won't have changed. That we would still be paying vast sums to the EU and would be following their rules, just like now. If you want to interpret that as vassalage, fine by me; but that's your term, not mine.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:19 am

dsr wrote:Actually, what I said what that Remainers will be pleased because the situation basically won't have changed. That we would still be paying vast sums to the EU and would be following their rules, just like now. If you want to interpret that as vassalage, fine by me; but that's your term, not mine.

This feels a bit like projection to me. I’d say it’s (some) brexiters who will be pleased with May’s deal, as they can explain away their lack of unicorns by (erroneously) claiming it’s not really Brexit and keep hold of their scapegoats (the EU / remainers) for everything that’s actually the fault of the Tories.

A no deal Brexit would leave folk like dsr and Crosspool with nowhere to hide when it all goes to sh1t.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:40 am

Greenmile wrote:This feels a bit like projection to me. I’d say it’s (some) brexiters who will be pleased with May’s deal, as they can explain away their lack of unicorns by (erroneously) claiming it’s not really Brexit and keep hold of their scapegoats (the EU / remainers) for everything that’s actually the fault of the Tories.

A no deal Brexit would leave folk like dsr and Crosspool with nowhere to hide when it all goes to [deleted].

This may surprise you, but most people who voted for Brexit did so because they wanted to leave the EU.

And in spite of your absolute blind faith in your infallibility, it is not the case that 3% tariffs on less than half our exports will automatically lead to cataclysm. Manufacturers will not rush to leave the country for tariffs, any more than they do when the exchange rate moves. You can swear blind all you like that you are right and couldn't possibly be wrong, and even call on the great incompetent Philip Hammond to back you up, and I will still not believe you. After all, we are just about due to come out of the recession that we were assured would happen as soon as the Brexit vote was won; and that didn't go too badly.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Spiral wrote:It's not often I get so personal but you truly are insufferable. You're still at it, being so dishonest as to claim that people are pleased with what you perceive to be downsides of membership without acknowledging there are reason remainers tolerate the terms of membership, to say nothing of the fact you're blatantly misrepresenting my use of the word vassalage. We have a seat at the table as a member for a start, and you know that, and you know my use of vassalage was a reference to May's deal under the backstop. [deleted], but at the very least you truly are the most dishonest person I've ever come across on this board.

Sorry. i really can't make it simple enough for you to understand. But if you really think I'm insufferable, however, you could always leave the board. If you don't, you could at least read the sticky about personal abuse that you have so clearly decided does not apply to you.

But above all, don't make filthy snide remarks about mental illness. Delete tham. It's disgusting.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:58 am

You forgot to replace "bullshit" with [deleted] in the post of mine you quoted a bit further up (3903), but I suppose that was before you decided to adopt a position of faux-indignation to save face.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:21 am

[post withdrawn]

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:16 am

dsr wrote:This may surprise you, but most people who voted for Brexit did so because they wanted to leave the EU...

And most people voted Remain because they want to stay in the EU, yet you’re saying they’ll be pleased to leave the EU under May’s deal.

If you’re honest (hahaha!), you’d admit you’re terrified of no deal, because you’d have to look your kids / grandkids in the eye when they inevitably suffer as a result and say “this is my fault - I voted and argued for this”. Unlike folk like Ringo and Jakub you’re bright enough to know they will suffer but you have to pretend otherwise right now for ideological reasons.

...and I’m quite sensitive to comments about mental health etc, but to claim calling someone is “touched in the head” to be “a filthy snide remark about mental illness” is one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever read. I might as well claim your reference to my “blind faith” is a filthy snide remark about disabilities.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:27 am

Another very good reason why we should remain in the EU despite changes that should be fought for.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/cla ... -1-9121264" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:33 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Oh, by the way, after I’ve been to Tory conference this year for a laugh (£50 early booking), I’ll be handing in my membership and taking out membership of the SDP.

Last year they had £2k turnover and in 2017 put up 6 candidates across the 600+ seats.

It seems a bit like a non neo-liberal New Labour. The economic balance with more of a commutarian, family, nation-state ethos. Hopefully they’ll grow, but I suspect I’ll find it very cleansing anyway. This is their list of revised values:

https://sdp.org.uk/new-declaration/

Good reading.

It feels much more how I see myself and the country. I've been looking for a new political home and I think I just found it.
Cheers Crosspool

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:36 am

Greenmile wrote:This feels a bit like projection to me. I’d say it’s (some) brexiters who will be pleased with May’s deal, as they can explain away their lack of unicorns by (erroneously) claiming it’s not really Brexit and keep hold of their scapegoats (the EU / remainers) for everything that’s actually the fault of the Tories.

A no deal Brexit would leave folk like dsr and Crosspool with nowhere to hide when it all goes to sh1t.

But only if it all goes to ****.
I and the rest of the leavers just think it will leave egg on the faces of all those that threatened the end of the world if we left with no deal

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:38 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:But only if it all goes to ****.
I and the rest of the leavers just think it will leave egg on the faces of all those that threatened the end of the world if we left with no deal

You might believe that, but dsr isn’t that misguided / deluded / ignorant of reality.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:38 am

Vote Dim Lib and we all end up with another Tory Government.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:42 am

The lib dems are finished in Burnley due to the national party's stance on Brexit ever since 23 june 2016.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:00 am

Spiral wrote:It's not often I get so personal but you truly are insufferable. You're still at it, being so dishonest as to claim that people are pleased with what you perceive to be downsides of membership without acknowledging there are reason remainers tolerate the terms of membership, to say nothing of the fact you're blatantly misrepresenting my use of the word vassalage. We have a seat at the table as a member for a start, and you know that, and you know my use of vassalage was a reference to May's deal under the backstop. I don't know if you're touched in the head, but at the very least you truly are the most dishonest person I've ever come across on this board.

Not wanting to go over old ground, but it doesn't matter how many seats you have at the table, if they are all a bunch of Eunuchs.

The EU has no manifesto.

The EU doesn't have a counter balance of an alternative manifesto to compare.

The EU instead has an agenda.

The agenda is set by the European Commission.

The European Commissioners are selected, not voted for.

The EC make proposals that members vote on.

No proposals are made by members from the floor of the European Parliament, only from the Commission.

If the vote goes against the EC, then just as they did with Ireland and Holland with the Lisbon Treaty, they just reword it, grease a few palms , and vote again and again until they get their way.

Remainers whatever their reasons for wanting to remain, are politically naive if they think that that is in any way democratic.
Seats at the table are just seats with noses in the trough.

Over 10,000 people in the European Parliament are on more money than Theresa May. It takes a certain amount of pride and will power to fight against the hand that feeds you.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:03 am

dsr wrote:Of course it's Brexit. But when I voted for Brexit, I wasn't intending that everything would carry on as before except that we would pay them £40bn and no longer have a vote. I expected change.

Your imaginary idea of what Brexit would mean is no more valid than anyone else's, dsr. This was the problem with holding a binary vote where one of the options was so vague. Leave meant whatever you wanted it to mean.

The time for imaginary ideas and fantasies about what Brexit might be has passed . Brexit means leaving with May's deal. If you don't like it, you might have the opportunity to vote against it in another referendum.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:59 am

Let’s make one thing clear here, Mays deal does not fulfill the referendum question of do you wish to leave the European Union, as we will still be tied and bound to customs arrangements and have the ECJ as an overall arbitrator.

The WA would also put us over a barrel for trade negotiations leaving us no wiggle room. The EU are scared of our enterprise and of us being a competitor aswell as loosing a cash cow.

Mays bluff “no deal” has been called and no one in government has enough cojones to see it through.

The EU acting like the mafiosa outfit they are are going to bounce us into another referendum in exchange for granting us a long delay when Mays deal falls yet again.

It’s almost like this whole scenario was indeed planned.

FWIW my view has always been consistent in that staying in is better than Mays deal. I’d really rather we left on WTO which is what I voted for.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:02 am

Greenmile wrote:And most people voted Remain because they want to stay in the EU, yet you’re saying they’ll be pleased to leave the EU under May’s deal.

If you’re honest (hahaha!), you’d admit you’re terrified of no deal, because you’d have to look your kids / grandkids in the eye when they inevitably suffer as a result and say “this is my fault - I voted and argued for this”. Unlike folk like Ringo and Jakub you’re bright enough to know they will suffer but you have to pretend otherwise right now for ideological reasons.

...and I’m quite sensitive to comments about mental health etc, but to claim calling someone is “touched in the head” to be “a filthy snide remark about mental illness” is one of the most pathetic things I’ve ever read. I might as well claim your reference to my “blind faith” is a filthy snide remark about disabilities.

Unlike you, I don’t subscribe to the possibility of failure or even embark on that particular mindset as in life I believe in positivity, & making choices early on which could later on transpire to be flawed I wouldn’t have a problem looking my children/grandchildren in the eye & admitting I got this wrong, you & others can carry on with your futuristic guilt trips based on what if, when you don’t have a clue what the future holds. Children are more advanced than you in terms of acceptance & the assumption that a no deal will “inevitably” result in children suffering is a giant leap from nowhere, gullibly believed based on what the pro EU experts peddle.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:06 am

Right_winger wrote:Let’s make one thing clear here, Mays deal does not fulfill the referendum question of do you wish to leave the European Union...

Yes it does. This is a matter of fact, not opinion.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:09 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Unlike you, I don’t subscribe to the possibility of failure or even embark on that particular mindset as in life I believe in positivity, & making choices early on which could later on transpire to be flawed I wouldn’t have a problem looking my children/grandchildren in the eye & admitting I got this wrong, you & others can carry on with your futuristic guilt trips based on what if, when you don’t have a clue what the future holds. Children are more advanced than you in terms of acceptance & the assumption that a no deal will “inevitably” result in children suffering is a giant leap from nowhere, gullibly believed based on what the pro EU experts peddle.

Positive thinking is not enough to overcome reality. You might as well base our economic future on astrology or crystals.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:11 am

Greenmile wrote:Yes it does. This is a matter of fact, not opinion.

In name only, it’s hollow & lacks substance & its removed in essence from what leave initially voted for, it’s a bodged up bum deal.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:11 am

Right_winger wrote:
FWIW my view has always been consistent in that staying in is better than Mays deal. I’d really rather we left on WTO which is what I voted for.

No, that’s what you wanted when you voted. The two things are very different.

Michael Gove, just in case you misssed it: “we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead."

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:13 am

Greenmile wrote:Positive thinking is not enough to overcome reality. You might as well base our economic future on astrology or crystals.

Positive thinking brings about positive actions leading to positivity all round, you should try it!

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:17 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Positive thinking brings about positive actions leading to positivity all round, you should try it!

Well when every educated and knowledgable expert on the subject has said that “be deal” will be a disaster, then the power of positive thinking is all you have left. And Ringo.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:27 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Well when every educated and knowledgable expert on the subject has said that “be deal” will be a disaster, then the power of positive thinking is all you have left. And Ringo.

The “educated & knowledgable” experts wouldn’t be in a job for much longer telling the truth, I’ve worked in certain scenarios advising people & in no uncertain terms I’ve been instructed from my paymasters to push & convey a message I didn’t believe in to remain within the employment the alternative would have been a P45. I eventually left to find other employment where I didn’t have to lie every day & professionally deceive the customers, in this case the electorate.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:27 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Positive thinking brings about positive actions leading to positivity all round, you should try it!

I’ll pass on the new-age hippy ********, thanks. As a Gemini, I don’t believe in any of that stuff.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:52 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Positive thinking brings about positive actions leading to positivity all round, you should try it!

If it is that easy why didnt we all just be really positive about leading the reforms from within the EU to transform it to how we want it to be. It would have saved all this time, effort and money we have suffered with Brexit over the last 3 years as we could have all got we wanted far quicker

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:01 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:If it is that easy why didnt we all just be really positive about leading the reforms from within the EU to transform it to how we want it to be. It would have saved all this time, effort and money we have suffered with Brexit over the last 3 years as we could have all got we wanted far quicker

My way would have a clean break no messing about, you’ve got a point though, perhaps reforming would have been a better idea than leaving (if you can call it that) it certainly would have saved all the “effort & money” maybe the powers that be thought it’s beyond repair & no amount of improvement would be worthwhile actioning, I honestly don’t know but you’ve definitely got a point.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:06 am

Two contrasting approaches today from Tory MPs to the current situation we are now in:

"Tory MP Nick Boles is resigning from his local Conservative association after clashing with them over Brexit.

He wrote: "I regret that my relationship with you should end in this way. But a politician without principles is worthless.
"I am in no doubt about my duty, which is to be true to my convictions and to dedicate the rest of my time in Parliament to the best interests of the people I was elected to serve."

And Esther McVey:

"Tory Brexiteer Esther McVey has hinted she will back Theresa May's EU deal next week, despite voting against it both times it came to the Commons.
She resigned from cabinet in November over the deal, saying it did not "honour the result of the referendum".
But speaking to Nick Robinson's Political Thinking podcast, she said Leave-backing MPs will "have to think a different way" for the next vote.
She also called for ministers who voted against the government to be sacked."

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:15 am

Right_winger wrote:Let’s make one thing clear here, Mays deal does not fulfill the referendum question of do you wish to leave the European Union, as we will still be tied and bound to customs arrangements and have the ECJ as an overall arbitrator.

Where on the ballot paper was the details of the deal? I must have missed that bit because my ballot only asked me if i wanted us to Remain or Leave the EU. Didn't say anything about the details of the deal we negotiate.

The referendum result was simply that we leave the EU. Any outcome that has us leaving the EU fulfils the result of the referendum. That's an indisputable fact and if you even try to dispute it you're an absolute "genius". Like, the "smartest" "genius" to ever post of this forum.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:35 am

79 pages and those who want Brexit won't vote for Brexit.

Weird, but hey ho, whatever floats your boat.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:38 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Harking back to that particular day going to the voting booth it was a simple stay or leave scenario, I guess people’s intentions were that the voted counted & it would actually mean something, as it’s transpiring it’s appearing more likely that what they voted for means nothing, if we are still tied to the EU that particular day or hr or however long it took queuing up was a complete waste of time.

We will always be tied to the EU regardless of what type of Brexit there is. Unfortunately we have gone from being one of the most influential members to a satellite country of its coast who has to accept its rules and regulations without question

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am

but at the very least you truly are the most dishonest person I've ever come across on this board.

Bearing in mind we had a thread that one poster tried to argue the definition of "evidence" in the face of the dictionary evidence, thats some achievement dsr.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am

Greenmile wrote:Positive thinking is not enough to overcome reality. You might as well base our economic future on astrology or crystals.

That's pot calling kettle black.

If the profits of doom about leaving the EU are as accurate as the profits of doom about what would happen the day after the referendum, we are all heading to the land of milk and honey.

Just because you choose to believe these profits of doom, doesn't mean you are right.... You and the profits dont know what the reality is, because we haven't found reality yet to test it.

The Power of positive thinking is undeniable. As an angst teenager who grew up with a chip on his shoulder, thinking the world was against him, I know the difference it can make.

It's also true that Negative thinking can drag you down. If you think **** is going to hit you, it invariably does. That doesn't mean it was inevitable, just that you brought it on yourself.

I can understand why you are scared, but your fears are irrational, and based on so many biased, unproven statements, by parties who as often as not have a personal agenda, rather than what is good for the country.

I feel sorry for people like yourself , it cant be easy, but the Leavers on this board read the same statements, the same profits of doom that you do. Have our ears and minds filled with all the negativity, but we manage to see through it for what it is. Its water off a ducks back. It changes nothing.

My son said there was a German comedian on QT, who asked the audience not how they voted, but how many had changed their minds. The response was about 6 in an audience of about 300.
That's 2%. Even if all those had changed from leave to remain, and that in itself is unlikely, it would still leave a 2nd referendum on a knife edge.
A knife edge after 2 years of negative campaigning pre referendum and 2 years of negative campaigning post referendum.

If so many still have a belief and faith in this country , can you not drag yourself to admit that just possibly you are worrying about nothing.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:50 am

You just need to believe more Greenmile.

Believe is all you need.

Extra checks at the border - belief will sort it
NI border - belief will sort it
EU residents heading home - belief will sort it
Companies relocating - belief will sort it
Brexiteer backers fleeing the country - er, er, er, belief will sort that
Believing that Mogg and Farage have your best interests at heart - he's got to be struggling a bit here, but **** it, he believes they do

And then you get to the real reasons he believe so much
40 years of demonising the EU and immigration for absolutely everything by far too many people - He believes that totally, with every part of his being.

He feels sorry for us?

Jeez, I don't feel sorry for him, I just think he's a old man who won't admit he's wrong cos he can't face it if he has to confront that he's been wrong all his life.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:51 am

Colburn_Claret wrote: My son said there was a German comedian on QT, who asked the audience not how they voted, but how many had changed their minds. The response was about 6 in an audience of about 300.
That's 2%. Even if all those had changed from leave to remain, and that in itself is unlikely, it would still leave a 2nd referendum on a knife edge.
A knife edge after 2 years of negative campaigning pre referendum and 2 years of negative campaigning post referendum.

Using a QT audience as a representative sample is about as unscientific as you can get since the type of people who apply to go on this programme tend to be those who have the strongest and most uncompromising views.
It's those who were pretty undecided last time and the waverers who are most likely to have swapped sides.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:53 am

“Profits of doom”

Snigger.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:54 am

Burnley Ace wrote:We will always be tied to the EU regardless of what type of Brexit there is. Unfortunately we have gone from being one of the most influential members to a satellite country of its coast who has to accept its rules and regulations without question

& doesn't that feel jolly exciting, we could actually determine our own laws & standards & fully control it internally & independently without approval from a EU beauracratic system for regulatory alignment. A exciting future awaits if Brexit is allowed to be implemented for it's intention. Time & tide wait for none.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:57 am

I completely missed that doozy. You can't use a hand picked QT audience for anything.

And it won't be people like us who will change our minds, because there isn't a lot of give in any of us, it will be the people who didn't really know a lot about it.

Now no one knows which way that will go, but it is absolutely 100% sure that there are less people who voted leave in 2016 in 2019 because of that great big brexit in the sky. And lots and lots of people have replaced them who are not as cynical as we are, and believe in stuff that is good and have the energy and va va voom to do something about it.

Accept the Brexit on offer, or you won't get one at all.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:06 pm

lol

: C57F0AC4-F6ED-4DF3-AD36-F6D32CBC5829.jpeg (43.57 KiB) Viewed 1331 times

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:21 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:lol
C57F0AC4-F6ED-4DF3-AD36-F6D32CBC5829.jpeg

The working class have done pretty well under left-wing governments. But we haven't had one of those in my life time so all i've got so see is that same class's wealth deteriorate while the rich have only got richer.

So the problem isn't the poor people vote Labour, the problem is that too many poor people vote against their own economic interest by voting Tory because the fools are easily led astray by the right telling them that their diminishing wealth is because of immigrants and not they corporation who underpay and while avoiding taxes.

Just look at how you reacted when i told you that the reason your council tax bill was high is because you're subsidising land owners. You went off on one.

You will always be among those fools who are controlled by the right-wing politicians and the corporations they work for.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:21 pm

I don't like this "stab in the back" narrative that's hanging in the air. This idea that somehow remain supporting MPs have conspired to prevent Brexit has no evidence attached to it. Read the resignation letters of Boris Johnson, David Davis, and Dominic Raab (or I would bet any other of the number of people who have resigned from cabinet over Brexit), and nowhere do they cite remain supporting MPs blocking Brexit as their reason for resigning. And nor do they cite civil servants as being subversive (not sure how someone can dislike an entire section of society - such as civil servants. It's as mad as saying; "I hate plumbers").

I can understand why people don't like Theresa May's deal - so I can understand blaming her and the people around her, but making out there's some sort of conspiracy to prevent Brexit (without a shred of evidence) is just going overboard.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:24 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I don't like this "stab in the back" narrative that's hanging in the air. This idea that somehow remain supporting MPs have conspired to prevent Brexit has no evidence attached to it. Read the resignation letters of Boris Johnson, David Davis, and Dominic Raab (or I would bet any other of the number of people who have resigned from cabinet over Brexit), and nowhere do they cite remain supporting MPs blocking Brexit as their reason for resigning. And nor do they cite civil servants as being subversive (not sure how someone can dislike an entire section of society - such as civil servants. It's as mad as saying; "I hate plumbers").

I can understand why people don't like Theresa May's deal - so I can understand blaming her and the people around her, but making out there's some sort of conspiracy to prevent Brexit (without a shred of evidence) is just going overboard.

It's a narrative intended to drum up hatred. And we both know what they want that hatred to lead to.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:26 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:It’s a historical fact, it’s evidence that Labour MPs didn’t vote to make the the EU Tefetendum Bill into an Act. You can keep repeating the same line but fortunately it’s a fact you cannot disprove.

And as for “squirm” - that’s just repeating my description of you!

The question you were asked -

Did the majority of Labour MPs vote to have an eu referendum?

You answered "NO"

You're flaunting your mutton headed qualities once again. In virtually all debates I've listened to, it's a widely accepted fact that , by a ratio of around 6 to 1 , MPs voted to have an eu referendum. (Which included the vast majority of labour MPs)

Only in the UTC message board Remoaner bubble does any other view exist!

This is what Chris Mason, the BBCs political correspondent said on the day the majority of Labour MPs voted for the referendum.

"You don't need a doctorate in mathematics to work out this was a Commons majority of rather a lot.

With 650 MPs in the House of Commons, persuading 84% of them to vote the same way is quite something.

In fact, such an achievement the result was held up because of the length of the queue of those wanting to endorse the idea of an EU referendum.

How did it happen?

Labour campaigned before the general election against the idea of a referendum, saying it would be destabilising. But after what amounted, to them, to be a rather destabilising appointment with the electorate, they have changed their mind in defeat."

Let your squirming continue forever. Let your flying in the face of facts and commonly accepted , uncontroversial knowledge last a lifetime. Nevertheless, the result will always be.

Chris Mason/ Ringo 1. The man who refuses to see/ Burnley Not So Ace 0

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:28 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:lol
C57F0AC4-F6ED-4DF3-AD36-F6D32CBC5829.jpeg

The labour party-

Formally the working class party.

Laterally the Islington dinner party.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The working class have done pretty well under left-wing governments. But we haven't had one of those in my life time so all i've got so see is that same class's wealth deteriorate while the rich have only got richer.

So the problem isn't the poor people vote Labour, the problem is that too many poor people vote against their own economic interest by voting Tory because the fools are easily led astray by the right telling them that their diminishing wealth is because of immigrants and not they corporation who underpay and while avoiding taxes.

Just look at how you reacted when i told you that the reason your council tax bill was high is because you're subsidising land owners. You went off on one.

You will always be among those fools who are controlled by the right-wing politicians and the corporations they work for.

Lol

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:30 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You just need to believe more Greenmile.

Believe is all you need.

Extra checks at the border - belief will sort it
NI border - belief will sort it
EU residents heading home - belief will sort it
Companies relocating - belief will sort it
Brexiteer backers fleeing the country - er, er, er, belief will sort that
Believing that Mogg and Farage have your best interests at heart - he's got to be struggling a bit here, but **** it, he believes they do

And then you get to the real reasons he believe so much
40 years of demonising the EU and immigration for absolutely everything by far too many people - He believes that totally, with every part of his being.

He feels sorry for us?

Jeez, I don't feel sorry for him, I just think he's a old man who won't admit he's wrong cos he can't face it if he has to confront that he's been wrong all his life.

Better to be optimistic than sneeringly arrogant.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:37 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Lol

UI

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:38 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:& doesn't that feel jolly exciting, we could actually determine our own laws & standards & fully control it internally & independently without approval from a EU beauracratic system for regulatory alignment. A exciting future awaits if Brexit is allowed to be implemented for it's intention. Time & tide wait for none.

Do you really think we'll determine our own standards or will they still be aligned with the EU or the US or whatever other major trading party we have?