Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[aggi]

Hey, I’m claiming that. Point to me!

What about being told that you have two logins (and a page of trying to prove it)? That must be worth way more than some bog-standard copy/pasting.

[aggi]

As with most things brexit related, I've been proven correct.

I think this has just overtaken I've got the ability to adapt & the speed of thought not to be affected by it, that's where we differ as my favourite post on the thread. It's a tough call though.

[martin_p]

What about being told that you have two logins (and a page of trying to prove it)? That must be worth way more than some bog-standard copy/pasting.

If you can get him to repeat that you can have a point!

[RingoMcCartney]

Hey, I’m claiming that. Point to me!

Ringo McCartney "Bercows role will be pivotal"

Martin p- " Ringo, Bercow cannot pick and choose what amendments to submit"

Ringo, Facts, Reality, Hindsight, Inarguable Proof 1. Martin_p 0

You're well on the way to a house of being wrong. Good effort Marty

[TheFamilyCat]

Ringo McCartney "Bercows role will be pivotal"

Martin p- " Ringo, Bercow cannot pick and choose what amendments to submit"

Ringo, Facts, Reality, Hindsight, Inarguable Proof 1. Martin_p 0

You're well on the way to a house of being wrong. Good effort Marty

He hasn’t “picked and chosen”, he’s followed due procedure and precedent. Something I believe you claimed he wouldn’t do.

[martin_p]

Ringo McCartney "Bercows role will be pivotal"

Martin p- " Ringo, Bercow cannot pick and choose what amendments to submit"

Ringo, Facts, Reality, Hindsight, Inarguable Proof 1. Martin_p 0

You're well on the way to a house of being wrong. Good effort Marty

Second point for me plus a bonus for the LOL.

Although he’s saying the opposite of what I actually said, but he’s copied the lie, so it still counts.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Interesting you should use Burnley as an example as you still manage to have the feelings you do about the club without it having complete ‘sovereignty’ over its affairs. We’re a member of a larger organisation with other clubs. That organisation defines how much money we can spend, what we can have in our ground and when we play our games as well as a raft of other things.

You mention money, but I don't see that as the point.

It is whether a group of people with things in common, bonding together in a communitarian spirit, have more value to their lives than those who don't. I could take my family to watch the Blades, much closer to home for me, but I would miss the shared history I have with the Clarets and the communitarian element which makes us stick together even when we bump into fellow Clarets away from the town.

Going back to the nation state, I see it as a bit like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the bottom, the most crucial needs of all, without which nothing else matters, would be independence, secure borders, peace and international recognition. I see a strong relationship with the countries around us as crucial to achieving that, but the expansion of the EU, freedom of movement and Schengen harm three of those four needs (peace in the UK is threatened by Putin being threatened due to the EU ever expanding). I'd love it if the EU was a loose economic and foreign policy collaboration between nations, not an integrated mess.

You could argue a hierarchy could be:

individual ----> family ---> local area ----> region ----> nation ----> supranational (EU) ----> world (UN)

I would argue family, local area, region and nation have all become more fragile in recent decades with the mobility people are exercising, and we need to find ways of strengthening those aspects while preserving the benefits we have had from that mobility. Otherwise we will end up with hundreds of millions of individuals making decisions just for themselves, sitting under a supranational EU with little in between.

[Lancasterclaret]

Face it lads, it's not happening is it

It is, and in 10 days.

We are not even remotely ready for a "No Deal", which is something that we can all agree on.

[RingoMcCartney]

He hasn’t “picked and chosen”, he’s followed due procedure and precedent. Something I believe you claimed he wouldn’t do.

In January he drove a coach and horses through accepted parliamentary procedural protocol. He went against the advice of his clerks. He's repeatedly refused to publish the advice they gave him.

Last week he CHOSE not to table an amendment on stopping a 2nd referendum.

He has indeed took it upon himself to act unilaterally, something else that Marty claimed he couldn't do. He has indeed, pick and choose amendments that clearly favoured Remoaners.

His role, despite being told to step aside, by a QC lead independent parliamentary inquiry into bullying in Westminster, has been pivotal.

[RingoMcCartney]

Second point for me plus a bonus for the LOL.

Although he’s saying the opposite of what I actually said, but he’s copied the lie, so it still counts.

Lying about lying !

You been getting tuition from the north of the county!?

[martin_p]

It is whether a group of people with things in common, bonding together in a communitarian spirit, have more value to their lives than those who don't. I could take my family to watch the Blades, much closer to home for me, but I would miss the shared history I have with the Clarets and the communitarian element which makes us stick together even when we bump into fellow Clarets away from the town

But presumably you accept that not all Clarets are from Burnley, and even the ones that are may live a long way away. You accept that new fans will arrive that don’t have a shared history with you. You still welcome into the Clarets family.

[martin_p]

Lying about lying !

You been getting tuition from the north of the county!?

I assume you have some evidence of me saying that then. As you know Wrongo, evidence is everything!

[martin_p]

In January he drove a coach and horses through accepted parliamentary procedural protocol. He went against the advice of his clerks. He's repeatedly refused to publish the advice they gave him.

Last week he CHOSE not to table an amendment on stopping a 2nd referendum.

He has indeed took it upon himself to act unilaterally, something else that Marty claimed he couldn't do. He has indeed, pick and choose amendments that clearly favoured Remoaners.

His role, despite being told to step aside, by a QC lead independent parliamentary inquiry into bullying in Westminster, has been pivotal.

Point to FamilyCat.

[Bordeauxclaret]

It’s going to be a high scoring game. He’s getting more and more irate as the fantasy falls away.

[RingoMcCartney]

I assume you have some evidence of me saying that then. As you know Wrongo, evidence is everything!

Come on now marty, anybody who's a regular visitor to these pages will know full well that you and I had a long drawn out argument about Bercow and his future role in the Brexit process.

The actual thread has long gone, but you're attempting to back pedal on what you said only makes you look more silly. Were that possible!

Put the spade down marty!

[evensteadiereddie]

Order, order !

No, not more pints, Ringo....................

[martin_p]

Come on now marty, anybody who's a regular visitor to these pages will know full well that you and I had a long drawn out argument about Bercow and his future role in the Brexit process.

The actual thread has long gone, but you're attempting to back pedal on what you said only makes you look more silly. Were that possible!

Put the spade down marty!

I’m claiming another point for the LOL.

[Devils_Advocate]

The hero of a nation. Brexit should be just put solely in the hands of super Johnny Bercow and once he's sorted it out we should scrap out current parliamentary system and make him president of the United Kingdom

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m claiming another point for the LOL.

You went too early Marty!

See the "politics live thread"

[Lancasterclaret]

You been getting tuition from the north of the county!?

If I was you (and I'm not), I have a 56 page thread on what "lying" means.

But because I'm not you, and its all been happily explained by other who can read and work it out, I won't bother.

But feel free to keep replying to this if it stops you getting angry about the Brexit process!

[Mala591]

It would seem rational for the EU to finally accept that the EU/May withdrawal agreement will not be approved by our parliament.

They should now offer us a six month implementation period to prepare for a no deal WTO Brexit.

[Lancasterclaret]

They should now offer us a six month implementation period to prepare for a no deal WTO Brexit.

You mean the one they are prepared for, and we are not?

We have to go to them with an actual plan, which is something I'm not convinced that the government have at the moment.

[martin_p]

You went too early Marty!

See the "politics live thread"

Well done, you’ve pulled out a quote of me saying something entirely different to ‘Bercow cannot pick and chose what amendments to submit’.

You still struggle with what evidence is.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well done, you’ve pulled out a quote of me saying something entirely different to ‘Bercow cannot pick and chose what amendments to submit’.

You still struggle with what evidence is.

And if you look at the next quote on that thread!

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free.

Bang to rights Marty!

[RingoMcCartney]

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free.

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo"

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html

3 separate sources showing Bercows role to be "pivotal"

[martin_p]

And if you look at the next quote on that thread!



Bang to rights Marty!

So this is a new tactic Wrongo. You claim I said something and prove it by supplying a quote where I say the exact opposite (saving me the work, thanks).

I’m claiming two points for the repetition and LOLs.

[Mala591]

You mean the one they are prepared for, and we are not?

We have to go to them with an actual plan, which is something I'm not convinced that the government have at the moment.

Six months should be enough time to work with the EU to 'minimise the mutual disruption' of a WTO Brexit.

Complicated - Yes
Difficult - Yes
Doable - Yes

But we will have left the EU and all future discussions/negotiations will have a clear starting point.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just throwing this in here from Nick Boles MP

"Not sure what all the fuss is about. If the PM thinks she has a majority for a third meaningful vote, she will also have a majority for a motion to set aside the Speaker’s ruling on the Erskine May convention. If she doesn’t, no point making the attempt."

[martin_p]

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo"

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html

3 separate sources showing Bercows role to be "pivotal"

Again, made up quotes without evidence. The only actual quote you’ve provided is me saying Bercow’s job is to decide on what amendments to allow, which MPs them vote on whether to make part of the motion.

Anyhow, another two points to me. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

[martin_p]

Just throwing this in here from Nick Boles MP

"Not sure what all the fuss is about. If the PM thinks she has a majority for a third meaningful vote, she will also have a majority for a motion to set aside the Speaker’s ruling on the Erskine May convention. If she doesn’t, no point making the attempt."

Precisely. The Bercow thing is a sideshow, although he’s just doing his job. If there is a majority for May’s deal it will happen.

[Lancasterclaret]

No point playing this game, Martin has an unassailable lead.

[RingoMcCartney]

You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo

This is you saying he can't pick and choose.

[CrosspoolClarets]

But presumably you accept that not all Clarets are from Burnley, and even the ones that are may live a long way away. You accept that new fans will arrive that don’t have a shared history with you. You still welcome into the Clarets family.

Of course, of course. New Clarets are always welcome, as long as numbers are controlled (we don't want 30,000 turning up when we have 20,000 capacity), and as long as they are prepared to "buy in" to the Clarets culture (no Rovers shirts allowed). Ideally we would only want them if they were prepared to give their own money to the club (i.e. no continued free tickets).

It isn't difficult

[RingoMcCartney]

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free

This is you saying he can actually pick and choose!

[RingoMcCartney]

I assume you have some evidence of me saying that then. As you know Wrongo, evidence is everything!

Yes

[martin_p]

This is you saying he can't pick and choose.

Nope, that’s you lying again. If you can link the thread where I said it then fine, I’ll apologise for calling you a liar.

Just to stop you continually repeating yourself here’s what I said. The context was you claiming that Bercow could ‘force a second referendum’ during a discussion on what the first meaningful vote might be. I pointed out to you that Bercow couldn’t define the wording of a meaningful vote and there was no way he could force a second referendum. I went on to explain that the government would define the wording of the main motion, MPs could propose amendments and it was Bercow’s role to decide on which amendments to put to the vote. But it was then down to parliament, through a vote, to decide whether or not those amendments were attached to the main motion.

[RingoMcCartney]

No his role wasn’t pivotal. What has it changed? I asked you this once before and you didn’t answer. He acted within his remit, it’s his job to serve parliament not the government. And if you’re going to argue his role is pivotal then something has to ‘pivot’.

This is evidence of you claiming his role wasn't "pivotal"

Bang to rights Marty!

When it comes to me proving you wrong yet again .


Well I'm afraid there's only Ringo that can shout "House!"

[martin_p]

This is evidence of you claiming his role wasn't "pivotal"

Bang to rights Marty!

When it comes to me proving you wrong yet again .


Well I'm afraid there's only Ringo that can shout "House!"

It is, and I stand by that statement in the context of the conversation it was part of.

I think I’m due another 5 points or so.

[RingoMcCartney]

You do know it's NOT Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo

First you say he can't.

[RingoMcCartney]

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free .

Then you say he can.

[RingoMcCartney]

I assume you have some evidence of me saying that then. As you know Wrongo, evidence is everything! .

Then you ask for evidence.

[RingoMcCartney]

No his role wasn’t pivotal. What has it changed? I asked you this once before and you didn’t answer. He acted within his remit, it’s his job to serve parliament not the government. And if you’re going to argue his role is pivotal then something has to ‘pivot’.

Then I provide evidence

[RingoMcCartney]

I think I’m due another 5 points or so.

The only thing you're due is a lay down Marty.

You're role in proving me right and you wrong has been pivotal!

[JohnMcGreal]

They should now offer us a six month implementation period to prepare for a no deal WTO Brexit.

There's no need for them to offer that. We're due to leave with no deal in 10 days' time.

[martin_p]

I’m pretty much wrong about everything

Here’s you saying you’re wrong about everything. We can all play that game Wrongo, you’ve taken your swivel eyed lunacy to new levels today!

[summitclaret]

The hero of a nation. Brexit should be just put solely in the hands of super Johnny Bercow and once he's sorted it out we should scrap out current parliamentary system and make him president of the United Kingdom

He may well be a hero but not like you think. He might just have forced the EU to do something that they have so far refused to get a deal through.

[RingoMcCartney]

He’s done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free

Here's the link!-

You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo

If Carlsberg did saying otherwise!.......

[aggi]

The non-economic elements are also clear. Many value the nation state in a similar way to how they view family - the glue that gives comfort to our lives and binds us together. Burnley fans, and the way we feel about the Clarets, should understand that. Some of us believe that nation state sovereignty will give our lives better meaning, others think it won’t. Again, it can’t be argued, it is just different mindsets.

I guess, as you say, it's different mindsets. In the mind of many, particularly younger people who've grown up in a global world, the nation state isn't the thing that binds us together.

Personally (and I'm not sure if I'd describe myself as the younger generation) I'm more likely to be out in the pub with someone from Budapest rather than Boston on a Friday night. A lot of my colleagues are European, a lot of my friends are; I view the mingling of cultures as a plus, not something to be afraid of.

I've spent a fair bit of time in Japan which is quite insular and I found it a bit weird, I'd prefer to be part of an inclusive rather exclusive society.

[South West Claret.]

Brexitiers getting more desperate by the day see link

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-ne ... rKFM03epT8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

Here's the link!-




If Carlsberg did saying otherwise!.......

So you don’t have a link then. Thought not.