Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

And not just UK politicians, the politicians of the other countries, who won't be under the pressure that ours are under and will take us a desperate UK to the cleaners.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yeah but it talks about the DT, read the ******* article.

I had a quick scab on my way to work, so wind your ******* neck in.

[martin_p]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Find me an example of two big industrial nations trade deals being signed in a "relatively short time" frame.

For comparison

Canada- EU - seven years
Japan-EU - bit longer
TTIP - still going on

I get the desire and I definitely get that we need it desperately, but there isn't any evidence that these things can be done quickly and suggesting it is is one of the reasons we are in this mess in the first place.

To be fair we'll be so desperate for deals we'll be handing countries a blank piece of paper, asking them to write what they want, then signing at the bottom. Shouldn't take that long. But at least they'll be good old British deals, made independently by a sovereign nation, so by definition a lot better than what we have through the EU.

[martin_p]

EU are suggesting that they may not take a decision on the extension this week which means we'll be going into the last week before the 29th March without a clue what we're doing. We really do need a new government!

[claretonthecoast1882]

To be fair we'll be so desperate for deals we'll be handing countries a blank piece of paper, asking them to write what they want, then signing at the bottom. Shouldn't take that long. But at least they'll be good old British deals, made independently by a sovereign nation, so by definition a lot better than what we have through the EU.

Isn't that the current labour leaders approach ?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

EU are suggesting that they may not take a decision on the extension this week which means we'll be going into the last week before the 29th March without a clue what we're doing. We really do need a new government!

We need new politicians or new main parties because neither are fit for purpose as it stands.

[martin_p]

We need new politicians or new main parties because neither are fit for purpose as it stands.

You won't get any disagreement there. I've been voting on a lesser of two evils basis for years now.

[Darthlaw]

Yellow vest protestors just turn up and block bridges, no one knows when they are going to do it. Planned marches (whatever the reason) have to notify the authorities so authorities can make contingency plans

So no disruption whatsoever? FACT? Contingency plans of ‘we need to go to the other hospital, an extra 5 miles / 10 minutes away’ don’t make it any more acceptable to me. Then again, I’m not the type to laud facts over folk dying so I can have another referendum.

but he also couldn't find a pic of people who voted against Brexit blocking the emergency services in.

Behave.

If you cant honestly understand that any protest would cause disruption, then you’re not in a position to dish out the condescending remarks to all those with a different opinion, who might pop up in your little remain echo chamber here.

[martin_p]

So no disruption whatsoever? FACT? Contingency plans of ‘we need to go to the other hospital, an extra 5 miles / 10 minutes away’ don’t make it any more acceptable to me. Then again, I’m not the type to laud facts over folk dying so I can have another referendum.


Behave.

If you cant honestly understand that any protest would cause disruption, then you’re not in a position to dish out the condescending remarks to all those with a different opinion, who might pop up in your little remain echo chamber here.

So organised peaceful protest should be banned?

[Darthlaw]

So organised peaceful protest should be banned?

Ha ha ha...

Oh, you’re being serious?

You guys are the ones mock raging about Leave voters blocking an ambulance (for moments) but refusing to accept that your own protests may have caused disruption. You tell me, should protests be allowed as long as they are for causes you like?

[martin_p]

Ha ha ha...

Oh, you’re being serious?

You guys are the ones mock raging about Leave voters blocking an ambulance (for moments) but refusing to accept that your own protests may have caused disruption. You tell me, should protests be allowed as long as they are for causes you like?

It's the logical conclusion of the way you're taking your argument. You don't want to accept that organised protest manages potential disruption but that random protest causes greater and potentialy more problematic disruption. You are arguing that all protest is the same and poses the same disruption (and therefore potential threat to life). You're wrong.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I've seen organised protests end up in absolute chaos because it's been intentionally hijacked.
I've seen random protests go off peacefully with less disruption than the above.

Both forms of protests can end up with similar results.

[Darthlaw]

It's the logical conclusion of the way you're taking your argument. You don't want to accept that organised protest manages potential disruption but that random protest causes greater and potentialy more problematic disruption. You are arguing that all protest is the same and poses the same disruption (and therefore potential threat to life). You're wrong.

I don’t want to accept that you have one rule for one cause and one for another. I accept that any form of disruption causes delay.

The rest is your agenda.

Then again, I voted leave in 2016 so you need to paint me as a polar opposite view to yours and use condescension to attempt to hammer your point home.

[aggi]

I'm loving Darthlaw's very ballsy attempt to gloss over the fact that he lied repeatedly (whilst posting pictures and links that showed he was lying).

Bravo. That is some chutzpah.

[Lancasterclaret]

The Darthlaw who posted on here two years ago would have laughed at himself this morning, and jokingly apologised.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I’ve not seen him this upset since someone criticised Man United.

[Darthlaw]

I'm loving Darthlaw's very ballsy attempt to gloss over the fact that he lied repeatedly (whilst posting pictures and links that showed he was lying).

Bravo. That is some chutzpah.

Lied? No. Mistake, yes.

Posted a pic of a protest on the same bridge and an article showing disruption. Incorrectly said it was remain protest, serves me right for trusting google. Just call me gammon, little englander, plain stupid or play the racism card like you folk do. You’re good at that.

My point remains, all protests cause disruption, to accept otherwise is delusion.

You keep glossing over hoping for those old Leave glimmers to snuff it though. Not one of you has had the temerity to accept it as a disgraceful tactic by peoples vote campaigners, yet.

Now that is chutzpah!

[martin_p]

I don’t want to accept that you have one rule for one cause and one for another. I accept that any form of disruption causes delay.

The rest is your agenda.

Then again, I voted leave in 2016 so you need to paint me as a polar opposite view to yours and use condescension to attempt to hammer your point home.

It's not one rule for one cause and one for another. It's one rule for organised protest and one rule for random protests. Take the Brexit blinkers off and you'll see that.

[Caballo]

The Darthlaw who posted on here two years ago would have laughed at himself this morning, and jokingly apologised.

There's a host of people who were considerably more agreeable 2 years ago. Sadly, I was probably one of them!

[Lancasterclaret]

Aye, Brexit has proper ****** things up.

[Darthlaw]

It's not one rule for one cause and one for another. It's one rule for organised protest and one rule for random protests. Take the Brexit blinkers off and you'll see that.

I’d level the same at you, Martin, but you just can’t can see even if you took them off can you?

You’ve seen a small bunch of protestors hold up a ambulance for less than a minute (as they are dispersing at the end of the video) and you refuse to accept that half a million protestors for Remain, or however many for a anti climate protest or any protest whatsoever, organised or not, could possibly cause similar disruption.

Now that is blinkered.

[Lancasterclaret]

Common Market 2.0 gaining traction in the H of C (Norway + or ++, to be honest I'm lost)

Think the plan would be for the MPs to try to take control to push through a deal, but how we get there is anyones guess.

We cannot crash out on a "No Deal" or this will get a lot worse a lot quicker.

[Lancasterclaret]

Here's how they would do it.

https://twitter.com/nmdacosta/status/11 ... 0585307136" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

I’d level the same at you, Martin, but you just can’t can see even if you took them off can you?

You’ve seen a small bunch of protestors hold up a ambulance for less than a minute (as they are dispersing at the end of the video) and you refuse to accept that half a million protestors for Remain, or however many for a anti climate protest or any protest whatsoever, organised or not, could possibly cause similar disruption.

Now that is blinkered.

The impact of known disruption is easier to manage than unknown disruption, it’s a fact. And it’s the impact that’s the important factor. Anyway, I’m not getting into another round of meaningless argument with someone with entrenched views, so that’s my last comment on that particular issue.

[Darthlaw]

The impact of known disruption is easier to manage than unknown disruption, it’s a fact. And it’s the impact that’s the important factor. Anyway, I’m not getting into another round of meaningless argument with someone with entrenched views, so that’s my last comment on that particular issue.

Pot kettle black.

My entrenched views are that all protests cause disruption, no more no less. You’ve finally come round to the same conclusion, albeit now changing tack to ‘impact’ (in order to retain some sort of victory), so no argument required. Good to see you’ve dropped you ‘Darthlaw thinks all protests should be banned’ narrative, that you invented though.

Sometimes, it is OK to just say ‘you’re right’, you know.

[martin_p]

Pot kettle black.

My entrenched views are that all protests cause disruption, no more no less. You’ve finally come round to the same conclusion, albeit now changing tack to ‘impact’ (in order to retain some sort of victory), so no argument required.

Sometimes, it is OK to just say ‘you’re right’, you know.

Find a post where I've said planned protest dosen't cause disruption and I'll concede the point (clue: you won't find one)

[aggi]

Lied? No. Mistake, yes.

Posted a pic of a protest on the same bridge and an article showing disruption. Incorrectly said it was remain protest, serves me right for trusting google. Just call me gammon, little englander, plain stupid or play the racism card like you folk do. You’re good at that.

My point remains, all protests cause disruption, to accept otherwise is delusion.

You keep glossing over hoping for those old Leave glimmers to snuff it though. Not one of you has had the temerity to accept it as a disgraceful tactic by peoples vote campaigners, yet.

Now that is chutzpah!

Fair enough. You were so eager to prove a point that you didn't even look into the facts of what you were posting (which doesn't say much about what you post) and then when it was pointed out that you were wrong just left multiple posts with a lie rather than editing them. Is that a more accurate reflection of reality?

I'm not sure where I've said that I hope those old leave glimmers snuff it.

In terms of the demographics of the leave voters, that is the reality. You can try and dress it up as a disgraceful tactic but the reality is that more old people die than young people. It isn't hoping for people to die, it's just accepting that's how it is.

[Darthlaw]

Aggi, the point was made that another protest caused disruption on the same location. You choose to be outraged because this one is for Leave. I didn’t edit because I don’t hide away from my mistakes. I admit them, as I have done earlier. Humility, try it sometime.

I’m not sure where any of you guys have condemned the use of older leave voters no longer being around as a reason to have another referendum.

Older people are more likely to die, we get that. To use ‘older people have died, who voted the other way, so we want another referendum’ to me is distasteful. If you want to put yourself behind that, it says more about you.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think to be fair Darth you are seeing something that isn't there.

I guess it depends on whether you believe that the 2016 referendum result should be enacted regardless of what happens between 2016 and now.

I'm still thinking it should be, but I'm increasingly not seeing anything that most Brexiteers voted for (either Mays Deal or No Deal) actually happening which would to me, mean we need another way out of the mess.

And that means that if there is another vote, then some Brexiteers (and some remainers) have died, and some Remainers (and some Brexiteers!) are now relevant.

And its 75% more pro-remain amongst the young, and 75% or more pro-brexit amongst the old.

Its just facts mate. No one wishes Brexiteers dead. Most of us have at least one parent who voted that way for starters!

[Mala591]

I've decided to stock up on my favourite tins/packets of food.

Other UTC readers must obviously make their own decision.

[aggi]

Looks like most of the middle/left leaning parties are looking for a second referendum:



apart from Labour:



who are looking for ?

[Damo]

Wrong again. I made no such claim.

You’re not very good at this, are you?

Edit - here’s my post again with a little bit of emphasis added to help you see where you went wrong...

Silly when someone asks you to prove something you didnt claim isn't it

[Lancasterclaret]

I've decided to stock up on my favourite tins/packets of food.

Other UTC readers must obviously make their own decision.

I'm waiting till next week, but what we will run short off is the short life items, which you can't really stock up on.

This is the time that UHT has been waiting for!

[martin_p]

Other UTC readers must obviously make their own decision.

I'm waiting till next week, but what we will run short off is the short life items, which you can't really stock up on.

This is the time that UHT has been waiting for!

And that's the thing, the fact that we don't have a clue what happens on 29th and aren't likley to until well into next week means that the panic buying will start anyway.

[Darthlaw]

Lancs, you’re pointing out facts again, that old people die. We get it.

I’m criticising the usage of those facts as reason for a second referendum, as was argued by prominent remainers and peoples vote campaigners.

Put it this way, in it’s crudest form its:

PV - I think we should have a second vote.
DL - But we haven’t enacted the first.
PV - Yeah, but didn’t your dad vote to Leave?
DL - Yeah.
PV - We’ll he’s dead now, my little sister can vote now and she wants to Remain. So we should have another go.

You honestly don’t see how that is crass and distasteful? Honestly???

[Lancasterclaret]

It is if you can find anyone whose said it like that.

You have read my post above yeah? Thats how I've been reading the comments on a 2nd ref to be fair.

And Democracy and voting patterns do change.

You are talking about a multiple generations effect here, its absolutely vital we get it right, and if that means going "we've proper ****** this up" (which we have) and taking our time to get it right, then we must do that.

Instead we've got people fixated on leaving regardless on March 29th.

If they have the wheel, and it looks like they have, then I'm all over a 2nd ref. Hell, I'm all over a revoking after a vote in the H of C.

[Darthlaw]

It is if you can find anyone whose said it like that.

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/surge_of_ne ... ougov_poll

There’s a few folk on that page advocating it.

We keep being told Brexit is the ‘will of the people’ but the 'people' have changed

Anyway, I’m not arguing it anymore. You’re happy not to decry the approach, just to hide behind semantics. That’s your prerogative and you’re entitled to it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not seeing anyone on there crowing about old people dying to be fair, just variations on what I've said.

Its not wrong to be 18-19 and to want a say is it?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Nothing wrong with it, but do we just hold another referendum every two years so the teenagers who're eligible to vote can also have their say?

Obviously we all know Remain were definitely going to win the last vote and will apparently win another...

[Lancasterclaret]

I repeat, a 18-19 year old saying they want a say in a generation defining decision is not the same as wishing old people dead.

[South West Claret.]

Looks like most of the middle/left leaning parties are looking for a second referendum:



apart from Labour:



who are looking for ?

It does indeed and the obvious solution to this irresponsibley led nonsense of getting on for 3 flaming years now by this useless money (ours by the way) wasting Government.

Some of us have been banging on about our “first Informed referendum” for most if not all of that 3 years as some of you know so I very hope the It comes to fruition.

By the way for any Little Englanders that still want us out I am assuming that if the referendum vote now will be to stay, where will you be emigrating too?

[nil_desperandum]

Darthlaw. over the years I've noted you to be a very reasonable poster, but you're continuing to misrepresent a very obvious and relevant point about changing demographics.
Let's take out the emotive language of "who's died... who's most likely to die... etc. etc.
If there's one certainty in life it's that due to our own mortality, (added to other factors), demographics change quite rapidly.
We're now 3 years on from the brexit vote, and some supposedly authoritative voices like Rees-Mogg say it could be 50 years before we feel the benefits of brexit. By then I'll be long gone, my children will most likely be gone, and even my grandchildren will be approaching 60!
But we needn't go 50 years into the future to notice a major shift in demographics.
By the time of the next General Election something approaching 3 million voters will have departed this world and thus the electoral register. There are already potentially 1.5 million additional 18 year old voters than there were in 2016, (so + 3 million by the time of the next election). That's a net change of around 6 million.
This is why we test out public opinion every five years or less.
No one is wishing anyone dead, but it's just an inevitability that demographics change, and by the time brexit is finally implemented it, even if no one changes their vote from 2016, there is unlikely to be any majority for it.
No one is hoping or praying for some great epidemic that wipes out large swathes of the elderly population.

[AndyClaret]

Common Market 2.0 gaining traction in the H of C (Norway + or ++, to be honest I'm lost)

Think the plan would be for the MPs to try to take control to push through a deal, but how we get there is anyones guess.

We cannot crash out on a "No Deal" or this will get a lot worse a lot quicker.

This position was destroyed yesterday by "thoughtful leaver" oliver norgrove on lbc.

[Lancasterclaret]

his position was destroyed yesterday by "thoughtful leaver" oliver norgrove on lbc.

I was working on and off away from the radio so only heard bits of what he said, but did he go into a bit more detail?

[Darthlaw]

As I said, semantics, but...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... referendum

The true “will of the people” looks considerably more questionable if it turns out to be the will of dead people

Even better - A ‘Deatherendum’ website...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 42196.html

[Lancasterclaret]

Still not wishing them dead though is it?

I mean, she's saying (like everyone is) that old people voted for this in the main, and some of them are not here anymore.

And the second link, he tells you exactly why he did it, and again, nothing about wishing them dead.

Old people die more often that young people

Old people vote Brexit more than young people

That is reality.

[martin_p]

The demographics argument for a second referendum has always been a bit of a red herring for me. The referendum was in 2016 so it's those of voting age in 2016 who's views count. However, I do support a second referendum from the point of view of us knowing what Leave might actually mean, and it would only be worth having a second referendum with one or more defined leave options as well as remain.


Of course the demographics do become important in the event of a second referendum as they suggest Remain has a better chance of winning, but they shouldn't be used as a reason to have a second referendum IMO.

[CrosspoolClarets]

That Oliver Norgrove chap has written about the border in the Irish Times today. He is certainly right that in Britain we don’t give NI much thought at the best of times. That’s what happens when almost half their seats in the HoC are not taken up.

All things said, the best thing now is to take May’s deal after the EU offer more concessions tomorrow. It’s naff, but it solves the NI problem and gives reassurances that other solutions can kick in to stop the backstop.

[Darthlaw]

Not seeing anyone on there crowing about old people dying to be fair,

I give you quotes, then it’s “Still not wishing them dead though, is it?”

Like I said, you hide behind semantics.

[dsr]

That Oliver Norgrove chap has written about the border in the Irish Times today. He is certainly right that in Britain we don’t give NI much thought at the best of times. That’s what happens when almost half their seats in the HoC are not taken up.

All things said, the best thing now is to take May’s deal after the EU offer more concessions tomorrow. It’s naff, but it solves the NI problem and gives reassurances that other solutions can kick in to stop the backstop.

More concessions? I must have missed the time when they offered the first lot of concessions. How is May's deal different from what the EU asked as their opening "negotiating" position?