Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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BleedingClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by BleedingClaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:23 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Yes - but not comparable.
I think it is sir... unless that is, some people are more equal than others.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:23 pm

Difficult to argue with that level. In response to 5450.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:27 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Parliamentary sovereignty eh?
Something remainers have always believed in, and something leavers claimed to be voting for.
We've seen it in action this evening, so hopefully everyone is happy now, but Suella doesn't seem too happy on Newsnight just now.
You've completely misunderstood. Possibly deliberately, but I don't know.

Brexit was about voting for the independence of the UK from the EU. The supremacy of Parliament over the government-over-the-seas. It was NOT about the supremacy of parliament over the people, because obviously that would be the fight against democracy; if you can find a single suggestion from anyone on the leave side that the intention was to take power away from the people and give it to politicians, I shall be very surprised. Happy hunting.

Rationalwiki has a not-100%-serious list of different forms of government. I suspect that what you are apparently aiming for is a sort of oligarchy rather than a democracy; though possibly kratocracy or even kakistocracy might be an equally adequate description.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_f ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:30 pm

Tory traitors gallery at 22.28.

Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa ... inApp=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:31 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:An interesting outlook on history over time in the EU.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.

OUT OF EUROPE we need to be out of it
The trouble is, a large part of this is just stuff that has been made up for the gullible and it appears this board has a number of them.

Cadbury moved after it was taken over by Kraft (a US company).

M&S & JLR have both denied they received grants.

God knows what the JDSU stuff is. That just seems to have no basis at all in reality.

The ICU one, 3,500 was the total of all ICI jobs in the UK at the time of the takeover and these clearly didn't all go in a matter of days because 10 years later when PPG launched a takeover bid people were worried about the job losses.

Hornby still exists and owns its own IP. Seriously, how stupid do people have to be to believe this ****?

Plenty of the rest is made up but that's just a flavour of the lies that some people propagate and others appear gullible enough to believe.

It's embarrassing that people uncritically believe things like this and makes it difficult to take anything they say seriously.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:32 pm

dsr wrote:You've completely misunderstood. Possibly deliberately, but I don't know.

Brexit was about voting for the independence of the UK from the EU. The supremacy of Parliament over the government-over-the-seas. It was NOT about the supremacy of parliament over the people, because obviously that would be the fight against democracy; if you can find a single suggestion from anyone on the leave side that the intention was to take power away from the people and give it to politicians, I shall be very surprised. Happy hunting.

Rationalwiki has a not-100%-serious list of different forms of government. I suspect that what you are apparently aiming for is a sort of oligarchy rather than a democracy; though possibly kratocracy or even kakistocracy might be an equally adequate description.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_f ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More hysterics. We elect MPs to exercise power on our behalf and that’s what they’ve done. They haven’t done anything contrary to the referendum and wouldn’t do so without going back to the people and asking again.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:34 pm

martin_p wrote:More hysterics. We elect MPs to exercise power on our behalf and that’s what they’ve done. They haven’t done anything contrary to the referendum and wouldn’t do so without going back to the people and asking again.
That ship sailed with the failure to act in accordance with the manifesto promises pledged.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:38 pm

hampsteadclaret wrote:I guess that those walking down from Sunderland have done about 25 times more miles already than those who turned up for the jolly in London on Saturday... a lovely walk round the West End in the Spring sunshine, a few selfies and coffees/snacks and heading for the boozer or Zizzi’s by 2.00 pm. Top Day !

Any good estimates for the ‘Sunderland ‘marcher’s numbers when they get to Greater London and onwards..?
Anyone else noticed that the "march to leave" website has pulled the route from their website after it was pointed out that they weren't actually doing the full distance each day (and that distance was already about 75 miles short).
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:39 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:That ship sailed with the failure to act in accordance with the manifesto promises pledged.
When did manifesto ‘promises’ become so sacrosanct? Parties of all persuasions have been breaking them since time immemorial. Why isn’t there the same rampant indignation about the ‘dementia tax’ promise in the Tory manifesto which was ditched almost before the ink had dried on the DUP’s £1 billion cheque?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:41 pm

You can see what's going to happen. They're going to negotiate a "deal" where we give the EU literally everything they have now, including the money and the power, and throw in Northern Ireland as a bonus, and deliberately decide to make sure that we have no power at all over voting so that we will have to take whatever the EU throws at us, and make sure the deal has no escape clause so there is no danger of it being overturned.

And then they are going to call a referendum, giving us two choices - one, remain; two, this bastardised deal which is remain in all but name. And remain will get a majority, with far fewer votes than it got last time and a vastly lower turnout, and the polticians will claim "this is British democracy in action" and pat themselves on the back and make sure the British people are never, ever, allowed a say again.

And then this will be followed by a Tory Party coup whereby the members deselect vast numbers of anti-democracy campaigners and stand in the next election as a Brexit party. And hopefully win, because they will be standing against Corbyn who doesn't have a policy on Brexit. And the whole Augean Stables will be washed clean and we might even get some honest politicians (though that is a very big ask. As they proved in the expenses scandal, which still goes on, an MP's definition of an honest man is one who hasn't been caught yet.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:44 pm

martin_p wrote:When did manifesto ‘promises’ become so sacrosanct? Parties of all persuasions have been breaking them since time immemorial. Why isn’t the same rampant indignation about the ‘dementia tax’ promise in the Tory manifesto which was ditched almost before the ink had dried on the DUP’s £1 billion cheque?
I don’t know about you, but in life if I was to promise something I’d do my upmost to deliver even more so if I was chosen to do that job & getting rewarding handsomely for it, we are all different & have different principles.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:45 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:I think it is sir... unless that is, some people are more equal than others.
It's not comparable because the referendum was a free vote in which every vote was equal and there was no precedent.
This evening 30 MPs voted against their own government in a crucial vote despite having a clear instruction to vote against the amendment. This is pretty massive in parliamentary terms, and was a bigger majority than was expected.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:45 pm

dsr wrote:You can see what's going to happen. They're going to negotiate a "deal" where we give the EU literally everything they have now, including the money and the power, and throw in Northern Ireland as a bonus, and deliberately decide to make sure that we have no power at all over voting so that we will have to take whatever the EU throws at us, and make sure the deal has no escape clause so there is no danger of it being overturned.

And then they are going to call a referendum, giving us two choices - one, remain; two, this bastardised deal which is remain in all but name. And remain will get a majority, with far fewer votes than it got last time and a vastly lower turnout, and the polticians will claim "this is British democracy in action" and pat themselves on the back and make sure the British people are never, ever, allowed a say again.

And then this will be followed by a Tory Party coup whereby the members deselect vast numbers of anti-democracy campaigners and stand in the next election as a Brexit party. And hopefully win, because they will be standing against Corbyn who doesn't have a policy on Brexit. And the whole Augean Stables will be washed clean and we might even get some honest politicians (though that is a very big ask. As they proved in the expenses scandal, which still goes on, an MP's definition of an honest man is one who hasn't been caught yet.)
Wow, you’ve gone all Donald Trump. Although I’m not sure ‘wash the Augean stables clean’ is as catchy as ‘drain the swamp’. Boris would approve of the Greek mythology though.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:47 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I don’t know about you, but in life if I was to promise something I’d do my upmost to deliver even more so if I was chosen to do that job & getting rewarding handsomely for it, we are all different & have different principles.
So why aren’t you raging about the ‘dementia tax’ then?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:48 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:How do those major decisions affect the pound in the pocket of our basic rate taxpayers? Specifically?

As pointed about above, much of our infrastructure and business is now overseas owned, so money must flow overseas by definition and decisions are being made by those without the interests of the U.K. foremost. We have flatlining wages below inflation (until this year). House prices are unaffordable. Many jobs are unattractive, especially zero hours ones.

So, pray tell, how has being involved in those major decisions for the last 10 years helped us?
Putting aside the fact that Lowbank's was largely lies the issue with it is that the focus is on a small part of our economy.

Realistically, most of the UK economy in the services sector. What we're seeing though is people willing to hamstring some of our most successful industries like finance and legal services in order to try and change industries like fishing that make up a tiny fraction of our economy.

It's amazing how much focus a small part of the economy has had.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:48 pm

martin_p wrote:So why aren’t you raging about the ‘dementia tax’ then?
He forgot all about it
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:52 pm

martin_p wrote:When did manifesto ‘promises’ become so sacrosanct? Parties of all persuasions have been breaking them since time immemorial. Why isn’t there the same rampant indignation about the ‘dementia tax’ promise in the Tory manifesto which was ditched almost before the ink had dried on the DUP’s £1 billion cheque?
This is at a completely different scale to cross domestic politics when people can’t be bothered, this turnout was absolutely massive of a magnitude of importance to people voting, so on that basis the credibility to the authenticity of the manifestos is more than questionable.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:00 am

Jakubclaret wrote:This is at a completely different scale to cross domestic politics when people can’t be bothered, this turnout was absolutely massive of a magnitude of importance to people voting, so on that basis the credibility to the authenticity of the manifestos is more than questionable.
About 5% more voted in the Brexit referendum compared to the last election. Not that different in scale.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:04 am

aggi wrote:About 5% more voted in the Brexit referendum compared to the last election. Not that different in scale.
Students playing tricks again eh :lol: it’s far more important & you know it & that’s the reason why it’s dominating all media headlines & prominent from every direction including football forums, night.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:05 am

dsr wrote:You can see what's going to happen. They're going to negotiate a "deal" where we give the EU literally everything they have now, including the money and the power, and throw in Northern Ireland as a bonus, and deliberately decide to make sure that we have no power at all over voting so that we will have to take whatever the EU throws at us, and make sure the deal has no escape clause so there is no danger of it being overturned.

And then they are going to call a referendum, giving us two choices - one, remain; two, this bastardised deal which is remain in all but name. And remain will get a majority, with far fewer votes than it got last time and a vastly lower turnout, and the polticians will claim "this is British democracy in action" and pat themselves on the back and make sure the British people are never, ever, allowed a say again.

And then this will be followed by a Tory Party coup whereby the members deselect vast numbers of anti-democracy campaigners and stand in the next election as a Brexit party. And hopefully win, because they will be standing against Corbyn who doesn't have a policy on Brexit. And the whole Augean Stables will be washed clean and we might even get some honest politicians (though that is a very big ask. As they proved in the expenses scandal, which still goes on, an MP's definition of an honest man is one who hasn't been caught yet.)
Agree with your first 2 paragraphs dsr alas,what happens after that is tough to call,but there is a fair chance of the Tories splitting in those circumstances.

Equally Labour have the issue of somehow squaring their membership (strongly remain) and their voters (mainly eurosceptic.

I'll only vote in any forthcoming elections if there is a brexit party candidate on the ballot.

Had to laugh at the SNP MP interviewed on the news tonight demanding a people's vote or revoking A50,if these chancers do happen to win a narrow majority for independence in the next few years,i'll be among the first to point out their hypocrisy by claiming any such mandate is credible.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:09 am

tiger76 wrote:Agree with your first 2 paragraphs dsr alas,what happens after that is tough to call,but there is a fair chance of the Tories splitting in those circumstances.

Equally Labour have the issue of somehow squaring their membership (strongly remain) and their voters (mainly eurosceptic.

I'll only vote in any forthcoming elections if there is a brexit party candidate on the ballot.

Had to laugh at the SNP MP interviewed on the news tonight demanding a people's vote or revoking A50,if these chancers do happen to win a narrow majority for independence in the next few years,i'll be among the first to point out their hypocrisy by claiming any such mandate is credible.
Maybe I was being a bit optimistic with the third paragraph.

:x

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:21 am

Damo wrote:That's pretty much just yougov Charlie you idiot
It's not one poll, you moron. It's dozens.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:30 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:It's not one poll, you moron. It's dozens.
Yes, dozens of surveys asking the same people the same questions Charlie

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 am

AndyClaret wrote:Well, well, well....

https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1110225621731500032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To be fair, it was Dianne Abbott who did the original head count
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:10 am

Damo wrote:Yes, dozens of surveys asking the same people the same questions Charlie
You haven't got a clue how polls work, do you?

And by the way, if they are asking the exact same people then those exact same people once thought the voting to leave was the correct decision immediately after the referendum which is in line with the referendum result. And now they don't. So why is it that they are only representative of the public then but not now?

And the whole ******* point of polling to finding a trend is to NOT ask different questions each time you do a poll. There'd be no way to reliably identify a trend in any direction, or no direction at all, if every time a polling company conducted a poll they were asking different questions.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:37 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:those exact same people once thought the voting to leave was the correct decision immediately after the referendum which is in line with the referendum result. And now they don't. So why is it that they are only representative of the public then but not now?
I used to take part in YouGov surveys.
Then there was a huge survey that took into account the views of the whole country that actually mattered.
I haven't bothered to take part in a yougov survey since.
I bet there are an awful lot of people like me. And many remainers who will take part in yougov surveys in the vain hope it will be as meaningful as the actual only survey that mattered

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:52 am

Jakubclaret wrote:I don’t know about you, but in life if I was to promise something I’d do my upmost to deliver even more so if I was chosen to do that job & getting rewarding handsomely for it, we are all different & have different principles.
So why aren't you and all the other hypocrites on this board marching to get 350 Million pounds a week spent on the NHS?

An entire campaign waged on barefaced lies and bullsh*t and designed to demonize and persecute immigrants and just now you suddenly think political parties have to stick to their promises and the expectations of your new-found, precious principles.

Keep watching because today you should get to see the long-awaited cabinet coup, another step along the road to the whole dumb idea getting sh1tcanned for good.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:24 am

*logs on*

Sees fresh lies being treated as "fact" by people whose grasp of reality is looking increasingly sketchy

*logs off*
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:38 am

For the benefit of non alt-righters. All the surveys matter. The only reason there was a referendum in the first place is because surveys told the Tories that there were votes in promising one. And since polls have consistently shown that the public has changed its mind on Leaving the EU the only pro-democratic thing to do is actually check whether that is true or not.

Science doesn't give a **** whether you took part in YouGov surveys or not, and nor do I or anyone else give a **** why you stopped. Their work shows a clear trend and it's not in the favour of the Brextremists, and that's the real reason they dismiss them and their work. If the trend showed that the public were happy with the decision then they'd be more than happy to quote the polling to us. How do I know? Because that's what they do on an individual basis any time one poll shows something they interpret to be pro-brexit.

Damo wrote:I used to take part in YouGov surveys.
Then there was a huge survey that took into account the views of the whole country that actually mattered.
I haven't bothered to take part in a yougov survey since.
I bet there are an awful lot of people like me. And many remainers who will take part in yougov surveys in the vain hope it will be as meaningful as the actual only survey that mattered

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by South West Claret. » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:43 am

Morning all, and how are you going to vote in the forthcoming "Informed" referendum?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:49 am

dsr wrote:You can see what's going to happen. They're going to negotiate a "deal" where we give the EU literally everything they have now, including the money and the power, and throw in Northern Ireland as a bonus, and deliberately decide to make sure that we have no power at all over voting so that we will have to take whatever the EU throws at us, and make sure the deal has no escape clause so there is no danger of it being overturned.

And then they are going to call a referendum, giving us two choices - one, remain; two, this bastardised deal which is remain in all but name. And remain will get a majority, with far fewer votes than it got last time and a vastly lower turnout, and the polticians will claim "this is British democracy in action" and pat themselves on the back and make sure the British people are never, ever, allowed a say again.

And then this will be followed by a Tory Party coup whereby the members deselect vast numbers of anti-democracy campaigners and stand in the next election as a Brexit party. And hopefully win, because they will be standing against Corbyn who doesn't have a policy on Brexit. And the whole Augean Stables will be washed clean and we might even get some honest politicians (though that is a very big ask. As they proved in the expenses scandal, which still goes on, an MP's definition of an honest man is one who hasn't been caught yet.)

All rather hysterical, you won ,after all, didn't you ?
I wouldn't bank on Corbyn being around for too long at the end of this fiasco either............

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by JohnMcGreal » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:57 am

Jakubclaret wrote:I don’t know about you, but in life if I was to promise something I’d do my upmost to deliver even more so if I was chosen to do that job & getting rewarding handsomely for it, we are all different & have different principles.
I think you could argue that the government has tried it's best to deliver the promises made by the leave campaigns in the 2016 referendum.

They put leading Brexiters in key government positions, the man leading the negotiations was a massive Brexiter (and fantasist). There's been an endless amount of money, resources and man power thrown at it. The government has barely focused on anything else for the best part of 3 years.

It's failed because those promises were never, ever going to be deliverable. They were based on fantasy. Brexit is collapsing under the weight of its own lies. The failure of Brexit will be total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:00 am

Business minister who resigned yesterday with actual reality

"In the event of a No Deal happening, there would be widespread and long standing implications for everyone. The economy may take five to ten years to adjust to the new reality, during which time jobs would be lost and livelihoods ruined"

Course, the chances of the actual business minister knowing that what UK businesses think isn't the same as a Brian from Hapton whose read a Sun editorial on the WTO but still, probably worth thinking about.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lord Beamish » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:18 am

dsr wrote:You can see what's going to happen. They're going to negotiate a "deal" where we give the EU literally everything they have now, including the money and the power, and throw in Northern Ireland as a bonus, and deliberately decide to make sure that we have no power at all over voting so that we will have to take whatever the EU throws at us, and make sure the deal has no escape clause so there is no danger of it being overturned.

And then they are going to call a referendum, giving us two choices - one, remain; two, this bastardised deal which is remain in all but name. And remain will get a majority, with far fewer votes than it got last time and a vastly lower turnout, and the polticians will claim "this is British democracy in action" and pat themselves on the back and make sure the British people are never, ever, allowed a say again.

And then this will be followed by a Tory Party coup whereby the members deselect vast numbers of anti-democracy campaigners and stand in the next election as a Brexit party. And hopefully win, because they will be standing against Corbyn who doesn't have a policy on Brexit. And the whole Augean Stables will be washed clean and we might even get some honest politicians (though that is a very big ask. As they proved in the expenses scandal, which still goes on, an MP's definition of an honest man is one who hasn't been caught yet.)
Mother will be along soon to put your toys back in your pram.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:45 am

South West Claret. wrote:Morning all, and how are you going to vote in the forthcoming "Informed" referendum?
I'll be voting "Leave" next time.

The UK is an embarrassment.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Rick_Muller » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:48 am

When we're older (If we get there of course) and we look back on this, I'd like to think we'd look fondly on these Disney years of British government...
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lord Beamish » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:50 am

Rick_Muller wrote:When we're older (If we get there of course) and we look back on this, I'd like to think we'd look fondly on these Disney years of British government...
I see them more as the Fred Karno days.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:25 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Business minister who resigned yesterday with actual reality

"In the event of a No Deal happening, there would be widespread and long standing implications for everyone. The economy may take five to ten years to adjust to the new reality, during which time jobs would be lost and livelihoods ruined"

Course, the chances of the actual business minister knowing that what UK businesses think isn't the same as a Brian from Hapton whose read a Sun editorial on the WTO but still, probably worth thinking about.
Maybe this Brian bloke from Hapton just plainly speaks as he sees things without any bias, I wish I could say the same about some of the top brass who have for years have demonstrably been wrong about predictions, I’d pay no heed to any of the so called experts who engineer & are highly motivated to deliver messages which benefit themselves, give me Brian any day of week he’d probably be more accurate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:28 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Maybe this Brian bloke from Hapton just plainly speaks as he sees things without any bias, I wish I could say the same about some of the top brass who have for years have demonstrably been wrong about predictions, I’d pay no heed to any of the so called experts who engineer & are highly motivated to deliver messages which benefit themselves, give me Brian any day of week he’d probably be more accurate.
How is this message benefiting the ex Business Minister. I’ve asked you before when you’ve claim staying in the EU benefits MPs and you haven’t offered an answer.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:39 am

martin_p wrote:How is this message benefiting the ex Business Minister. I’ve asked you before when you’ve claim staying in the EU benefits MPs and you haven’t offered an answer.
Well for a start he’d get his job back, of course remaining within the EU benefits MPs & business enormously, if cheap EU labour was to reduce, seems to be a cycle of asking questions & answers being answered, & then a couple of weeks later the same or similar questions get asked again when the answer as already been answered, you don’t have to agree with answer that’s fair enough, but don’t deny or refuse to acknowledge that the answer wasn’t provided at the time of the question.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by TheFamilyCat » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:45 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Well for a start he’d get his job back, of course remaining within the EU benefits MPs & business enormously, if cheap EU labour was to reduce, seems to be a cycle of asking questions & answers being answered, & then a couple of weeks later the same or similar questions get asked again when the answer as already been answered, you don’t have to agree with answer that’s fair enough, but don’t deny or refuse to acknowledge that the answer wasn’t provided at the time of the question.
If being on the EU benefits business “enormously” (your words) does that not consequently benefit the country?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:50 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:If being on the EU benefits business “enormously” (your words) does that not consequently benefit the country?
Well no really, as the money doesn’t really get distributed downhill,& adds lots of negatives in other ways. It benefits wealthy big business, the average joe on the street it’s anything but.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:04 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Well for a start he’d get his job back, of course remaining within the EU benefits MPs & business enormously, if cheap EU labour was to reduce, seems to be a cycle of asking questions & answers being answered, & then a couple of weeks later the same or similar questions get asked again when the answer as already been answered, you don’t have to agree with answer that’s fair enough, but don’t deny or refuse to acknowledge that the answer wasn’t provided at the time of the question.
If you can point out specifically where you’ve outlined the benefits to MPs of remaining I’d appreciate it. Thank you.

Oh, and one extra question, how is leaving the EU going to change the attitude of business leaders on distributing benefits downhill?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:12 am

martin_p wrote:If you can point out specifically where you’ve outlined the benefits to MPs of remaining I’d appreciate it. Thank you.
It’s already been said plenty of times & it’s obvious in lots of posts & some other posters have said similar. If it didn’t benefit most of the MPs the manifestos would have been honoured, regarding on the 29th we leave with a deal or no deal, the extra question as already been answered as well plenty of times as well, I’m not being aloof but I’m not spending a considerable portion of my morning in a perpetual circle repeating what I’ve already said or tweaking my earlier answers as the answers will remain the same. Whether it’s a strategy to persist in the hope that the answers will change I’m not sure. I’m signing out now.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Damo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:24 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:For the benefit of non alt-righters. All the surveys matter. The only reason there was a referendum in the first place is because surveys told the Tories that there were votes in promising one. And since polls have consistently shown that the public has changed its mind on Leaving the EU the only pro-democratic thing to do is actually check whether that is true or not.
Haven't most polls consistently shown that remain would have won the referendum?
Again, the poll that made Cameron bow down to public opinion, was the amount of votes UKIP gained at the GE. It had nothing to do with yougov
Imploding Turtle wrote:Science doesn't give a **** whether you took part in YouGov surveys or not, and nor do I or anyone else give a **** why you stopped.
This kind of nonsense, along with calling everyone you disagree with an "alt-right nazi" just highlights what an petulant little child you are.
Imploding Turtle wrote:Their work shows a clear trend and it's not in the favour of the Brextremists, and that's the real reason they dismiss them and their work. If the trend showed that the public were happy with the decision then they'd be more than happy to quote the polling to us. How do I know? Because that's what they do on an individual basis any time one poll shows something they interpret to be pro-brexit.
How do you expect "Brextremists" to be bothered to take part in opinion polls. You and people like you have driven a couple of nails into democracy, with your hysterical reaction to not getting your own way. Should the establishment find a way to work it's way out of leaving the EU, many people like me will feel so apathetic about voting, that they will probably never bother to go out of their way to vote again.
That might sound good to you, being such a short sighted, bubble dweller. But to politicians, its terrifying.

Dismiss people like me all you want. That's exactly what got you into a situation where you in particular, looked really stupid following every major vote in the last 5 or so years

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:27 am

Jakubclaret wrote:It’s already been said plenty of times & it’s obvious in lots of posts & some other posters have said similar. If it didn’t benefit most of the MPs the manifestos would have been honoured, regarding on the 29th we leave with a deal or no deal, the extra question as already been answered as well plenty of times as well, I’m not being aloof but I’m not spending a considerable portion of my morning in a perpetual circle repeating what I’ve already said or tweaking my earlier answers as the answers will remain the same. Whether it’s a strategy to persist in the hope that the answers will change I’m not sure. I’m signing out now.
Ah, so no answer then. You spent longer telling me why you won’t answer the question than it would have taken to answer it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:30 am

martin_p wrote:If you can point out specifically where you’ve outlined the benefits to MPs of remaining I’d appreciate it. Thank you.

Oh, and one extra question, how is leaving the EU going to change the attitude of business leaders on distributing benefits downhill?
There are a number of Peers/MP's who own chunks of land with farms on them.
Said farms receive EU subsidies.

Pretty sure Peers get a pension pot via the EU, but I'll need to double check that one.

I'm sure with some more digging other stuff would appear out of the woodwork so to speak.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:30 am

JRM now saying he will reluctantly back May's deal. However the DUP still saying no. In order to avoid getting blamed for losing brexit (CU/SM is not brexit) The ERG are going to have to back her deal. Even if the DUP vote against or abstain, there might be enough Labour leave votes to just get the deal through.

If her deal passes without DUP support they may pull the c and s agreement. My guess is that they won't until May goes in a few weeks as avoiding Corbyn in charge will be important to them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:33 am

Damo wrote: How do you expect "Brextremists" to be bothered to take part in opinion polls. You and people like you have driven a couple of nails into democracy, with your hysterical reaction to not getting your own way. Should the establishment find a way to work it's way out of leaving the EU, many people like me will feel so apathetic about voting, that they will probably never bother to go out of their way to vote again.
That might sound good to you, being such a short sighted, bubble dweller. But to politicians, its terrifying.

Dismiss people like me all you want. That's exactly what got you into a situation where you in particular, looked really stupid following every major vote in the last 5 or so years
Whether you take part in polls or not Damo, pollsters such as YouGov will make sure they have a representative sample of people who voted Leave, Remain or didn’t vote at all. So no need to be worried about it being skewed. If you look across polling organisations the trend has been for a Remain majority since about September 2017.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:36 am

martin_p wrote:Whether you take part in polls or not Damo, pollsters such as YouGov will make sure they have a representative sample of people who voted Leave, Remain or didn’t vote at all. So no need to be worried about it being skewed. If you look across polling organisations the trend has been for a Remain majority since about September 2017.
Prior to the referendum the polls suggested remain would win, that worked out well.

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