Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[HiroshimaClaret]

One of very few speakers with the intelligence deserving of being listened to amid this whole, sorry mess.

Well worth 5 minutes of anyone`s life listening to this lady.

https://www.facebook.com/AbroadImage/vi ... 2OTIzNDUx/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dsr]

Good luck in finding a poster who has said the referendum result should be ignored. You’re making stuff up.

Have you considered taking a leaf out of Lancaster's book, and typing the quotes rather than using the quote button? You see, if you typed them, you would have to read them, and then you wouldn't post as many answers that don't really make sense.

You see, what I wrote (but you didn't read) was that I said some people had said the referendum was advisory and CAN be ignored. And you answered as if I has said SHOULD be ignored. CAN and SHOULD are different words, and have different meanings.

[summitclaret]

Speculation tonight that the EU will only grant a longer extension if we agree to a second referendum. This is how the bastards work and why we need to get the hell out.

[HiroshimaClaret]

Speculation tonight that the EU will only grant a longer extension if we agree to a second referendum. This is how the bastards work and why we need to get the hell out.

See my link above - straight from the horses`s mouth, so to speak.

[tiger76]

Margaret Beckett's "confirmatory referendum" is a lie - or at least, a misunderstanding of what "confirmatory" means. It the point is to confirm what was meant by the first referendum, then it doesn't make sense. It was a Yes/No question, and the answer was No. She wants to "confirm" whether by "No", did we mean "Yes" or did we mean "Compromise between Yes and No". That's nonsense.

A case could be made for a confirmatory referendum between "Compromise (May or otherwise") and "No Deal". Not necessarily a good case, but certainly a case could be made. But Margaret Beckett is simply after a repeat referendum but with a flat "No" taken off the list.

Any referendum which still has remain as an option is an insult to the original vote in 2016,the UK public voted to leave,now how we leave is a different question,and there are various arguments from both sides regarding this,but if another ballot has a remain option all brexitters should boycott such a sham.

[Greenmile]

Have you considered taking a leaf out of Lancaster's book, and typing the quotes rather than using the quote button? You see, if you typed them, you would have to read them, and then you wouldn't post as many answers that don't really make sense.

You see, what I wrote (but you didn't read) was that I said some people had said the referendum was advisory and CAN be ignored. And you answered as if I has said SHOULD be ignored. CAN and SHOULD are different words, and have different meanings.

And I told you that it’s a fact that the referendum was advisory and can be ignored, and that arguing otherwise would be like arguing black was white.

The implication being that nobody could be so dishonest as to suggest that there was any argument to be had about this incontrovertible fact, but I suppose I must have forgotten who I was talking to.

Edit - incidentally, this is what you said (emphasis mine)

...This is what some people are suggesting - that even when the governing party has offered a referendum as part of its manifesto, and MPs of all sides have agreed to hold it, and that the Prime Minister has unequivocally said that the result will be enacted, and no-one has contradicted him - that after the event, MPs should stand up and explain that this referendum was only offered on the basis that it would vote Remain, and since the result was wrong, it will be disregarded.

As has been stated, MPs are legally entitled to do that. But morally? To some of us, the depths of deceit involved in that policy are so enormous that it's hard to get our heads round.

[Greenmile]

Any referendum which still has remain as an option is an insult to the original vote in 2016,the UK public voted to leave,now how we leave is a different question,and there are various arguments from both sides regarding this,but if another ballot has a remain option all brexitters should boycott such a sham.

I agree 100%

[martin_p]

Any referendum which still has remain as an option is an insult to the original vote in 2016,the UK public voted to leave,now how we leave is a different question,and there are various arguments from both sides regarding this,but if another ballot has a remain option all brexitters should boycott such a sham.

You haven’t read the amendment either then.

[martin_p]

Have you considered taking a leaf out of Lancaster's book, and typing the quotes rather than using the quote button? You see, if you typed them, you would have to read them, and then you wouldn't post as many answers that don't really make sense.

You see, what I wrote (but you didn't read) was that I said some people had said the referendum was advisory and CAN be ignored. And you answered as if I has said SHOULD be ignored. CAN and SHOULD are different words, and have different meanings.

Given that the government can ignore the referendum is an unarguable legal fact I took you to mean that people were arguing it should be ignored. If you didn’t mean that then you are arguing against facts and are wrong.

Just seen Greenmile’s edit. Seems you did mean what I thought you meant.

[martin_p]

One of very few speakers with the intelligence deserving of being listened to amid this whole, sorry mess.

Well worth 5 minutes of anyone`s life listening to this lady.

https://www.facebook.com/AbroadImage/vi ... 2OTIzNDUx/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The AFD are the German equivalent of UKIP, what do you expect her to say?

[dsr]

Given that the government can ignore the referendum is an unarguable legal fact I took you to mean that people were arguing it should be ignored. If you didn’t mean that then you are arguing against facts and are wrong.

Clearly I misunderstood. Why are there so many posts from Remainers on this message board stressin gthat the referendum is advisory, if their obvious implication is that each of those comments is scarcely relevant because of the practical considerations?

[martin_p]

Clearly I misunderstood. Why are there so many posts from Remainers on this message board stressin gthat the referendum is advisory, if their obvious implication is that each of those comments is scarcely relevant because of the practical considerations?

Usually in response to some mad theory, like the one today claiming it would be illegal to hold a second referendum because the results of the first hadn’t been carried out.

[HiroshimaClaret]

The AFD are the German equivalent of UKIP, what do you expect her to say?

Regardless of her affiliations, not much of whaｔ she says if far from the truth.

[Colburn_Claret]

Given each parties “red lines” what sort of deal were you expecting?

The DEAL wasnt relevant to the referendum, otherwise it would have been on the ballot paper.
I wasnt expecting any particular deal, honestly never entered my head, because I'm just confident it will all sort itself out in the end. What I voted for, and expected, was to Leave.

[Colburn_Claret]

It's not just a matter of understanding the concept. It's that for some of us, the suggested "ignore the referendum because it's advisory" is so far beyond the level of deceit expected from politicians that it defies understanding.

This is what some people are suggesting - that even when the governing party has offered a referendum as part of its manifesto, and MPs of all sides have agreed to hold it, and that the Prime Minister has unequivocally said that the result will be enacted, and no-one has contradicted him - that after the event, MPs should stand up and explain that this referendum was only offered on the basis that it would vote Remain, and since the result was wrong, it will be disregarded.

As has been stated, MPs are legally entitled to do that. But morally? To some of us, the depths of deceit involved in that policy are so enormous that it's hard to get our heads round.

That's my point .
I do understand when others say MPs have sovereignty that may make it legal, but it will never make or right.

[Jakubclaret]

The DEAL wasnt relevant to the referendum, otherwise it would have been on the ballot paper.
I wasnt expecting any particular deal, honestly never entered my head, because I'm just confident it will all sort itself out in the end. What I voted for, and expected, was to Leave.

I don't think it entered anybody's head & why would it when something hasn't been mentioned if it was going to be a issue it should have been mentioned there & then, it was remain or leave & thats that.

[Colburn_Claret]

Operation Stack exists, and is used about ten times a year you absolute spoon. How much more of a "fact" do you want?

Brock and the other one (parking at Manston airfield) are planned for because Operation Stack is the storm version. They most definitely exist.

And you are still talking as if the 17.4 million voting exactly for what you wanted. That arrogance backed up by a refusal to accept reality is a potent mix.

This is a thread on Brexit and you use Operation Stack as an outcome of the consequences of leaving. Then you say it's used 4 times a year.
If it's used 4 times a year already wtf has it got to do with Brexit.

I know why I voted leave, I dont know why others did, or what their motives were whatever they were, they all wanted to leave as well.
There are different versions of leave, well there are different versions of remain. Not everyone who voted Remain want a United states of Europe, many still believe it's just a trading bloc, others think that the pace needs to slow down and some of it's already considerable power giving back to member states. The different versions will triple if you take into it the view on the EU from other member states. One thing we do know after all this time, is that when you approve anything in Brussels you don't always get what you signed up for.

If we have to vote on 7 versions of leave, why shouldnt we be allowed to vote on the 7 plus versions of Remain. I can answer that for you. There isn't 7 plus versions s of Remain, just one, and it isn't set by us but by The European Commission, regardless of how we feel about it.

[JohnMcGreal]

Any referendum which still has remain as an option is an insult to the original vote in 2016,the UK public voted to leave,now how we leave is a different question,and there are various arguments from both sides regarding this,but if another ballot has a remain option all brexitters should boycott such a sham.

They could do that. Or they could actually grow up a bit, engage their brains for a minute and acknowledge that things change. Having remain on the ballot is a perfectly valid option considering the amount of support it has amongst the electorate.

[SmudgetheClaret]

March the 29th 2019 will go down in history as the day the UK government betrayed it's people and damaged the democratic system beyond repair
I'm quite prepared to admit for me it feels terrible and remainer ridicule couldn't make it worse so go for it....

the only thing I would say to the 17.4 million voters who feel ignored or anyone who also feels let down is..

Do yourself a favour never vote for Red or Blue again in your life it's the only way ..

[Lancasterclaret]

This is a thread on Brexit and you use Operation Stack as an outcome of the consequences of leaving. Then you say it's used 4 times a year.
If it's used 4 times a year already wtf has it got to do with Brexit.

Thank **** this is the last day arguing about this.

Operation Stack is the name used when Dover docks experiences delays. I think its called Operation Brock when its being used for Brexit realated delays.

It exists. Its not Project Fear. The No deal planning (and the more we do, the less disruption we get) is 100% required because of "Project Reality".

I don't want it, I don't want to waste money on it, I won't be saying "I told you so" if it happens and ideally it won't, but it has to be planned for.

People in power with real responsibility cannot rely on "belief" and zero knowledge about what they are talking about.

You can get away with it as a private citizen as an opinion though. But they can't.

[Bordeauxclaret]

March the 29th 2019 will go down in history as the day the UK government betrayed it's people and damaged the democratic system beyond repair
I'm quite prepared to admit for me it feels terrible and remainer ridicule couldn't make it worse so go for it....

the only thing I would say to the 17.4 million voters who feel ignored or anyone who also feels let down is..

Do yourself a favour never vote for Red or Blue again in your life it's the only way ..

Any plans to riot yet smudge?

[Lancasterclaret]

Jacob Rees Mogg in the unusual position of getting tough questions he can't answer

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 2440801281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bordeauxclaret]

Jacob Rees Mogg in the unusual position of getting tough questions he can't answer

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status ... 2440801281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All a little too late this sort of questioning. They should have started it years ago, and that’s across both sides.

[Lancasterclaret]

Have you considered taking a leaf out of Lancaster's book, and typing the quotes rather than using the quote button? You see, if you typed them, you would have to read them, and then you wouldn't post as many answers that don't really make sense.

You see, what I wrote (but you didn't read) was that I said some people had said the referendum was advisory and CAN be ignored. And you answered as if I has said SHOULD be ignored. CAN and SHOULD are different words, and have different meanings.

Point of Order dsr!

Its probably my fault for not being clear enough but what I actually used to do (don't now I know how to do it properly!) is type {, quote,] and then copy and paste which bit I wanted before typing [,/, quote, ]

Apologies for any confusion caused by my utter incompetence at using the quote function. And again, thanks to Rick Muller for pointing me in the right direction.

Carry on!

[Lancasterclaret]

8 Labour MPs have proposed an amendment giving Parliament greater scrutiny over the process.

Two of them are already voting for the deal, and that does suggest another six will as well.

But they need at least thirty I think.

[Tall Paul]

there are different versions of remain.

There isn't 7 plus versions s of Remain, just one,

Wat?

[Jakubclaret]

Any referendum which still has remain as an option is an insult to the original vote in 2016,the UK public voted to leave,now how we leave is a different question,and there are various arguments from both sides regarding this,but if another ballot has a remain option all brexitters should boycott such a sham.

I agree, I've said the same thing earlier, millions will abstain, it's a farce & a affront to democracy, my prediction is may will be the casualty & a extreme cotton wool brexit will happen, in name only, wouldn't surprise me if all this was agreed from the 24th june 2016.

[martin_p]

Happy Brexit Day everyone!


Oh!

[Jakubclaret]

Happy Brexit Day everyone!


Oh!

Happy birthday to the domestic rise of the right wing parties coupled with EU dictatorship, bodes well for future

[SmudgetheClaret]

Any plans to riot yet smudge?

ive got a 0 criminal record i even catch spiders and let them go outside and ive got no intentions on that changing but...

i can be extremely nasty at the voting booth and that is where my efforts will be going,apparently one of the highest search topics online is

"the Brexit Party" last time 4 million UKIP votes caused mayhem my guess is that is tiny compared to whats coming...

[SmudgetheClaret]

Happy Brexit Day everyone!


Oh!

every dog has his day Martin this is yours make the most of it ...

[summitclaret]

8 Labour MPs have proposed an amendment giving Parliament greater scrutiny over the process.

Two of them are already voting for the deal, and that does suggest another six will as well.

But they need at least thirty I think.

This is very interesting and hopefully will bring over more Labour mps from leave seats. Are there enough without career prospects ti do it? Julie Cooper are you brave enough to do what 2/3rds of your town voted for?

[TheFamilyCat]

ive got a 0 criminal record i even catch spiders and let them go outside and ive got no intentions on that changing but...

i can be extremely nasty at the voting booth and that is where my efforts will be going,apparently one of the highest search topics online is

"the Brexit Party" last time 4 million UKIP votes caused mayhem my guess is that is tiny compared to whats coming...

How nasty? Will you scowl at the other parties on the paper as you put your cross next to the Brexit party?

[NottsClaret]

Perfect day for a bit of Brexity rioting. Spring in the air, glorious sunshine.

Unfortunately, rioting is a young man's game. So expect some furious Facebook memes from your dad's mates and not much else.

Still, happy Brexit Day!

[AndrewJB]

That’s quite a cool drawing but it ignores the distinction between the options by showing them all on one page. Some are about withdrawal (revoke, no deal), and some are about future trade (preferential trade deal [though that wasn’t on the list yesterday], Customs Union etc), and some are about both (second ref). With all of them there are thus unanswered questions which if answered could dramatically change the appeal of that option.

That mess just goes to show that the MPs haven’t a clue what they are voting on and how to structure it. I am starting to think Letwin is the ultimate example of looking clever and sounding clever but being thick underneath.

Following Letwin’s intervention last week, Bercow has selected a random set of choices, mainly on the soft side. What they should have done is voting in two strands, a) how to withdraw, b) how to trade afterwards.

In 2016 I would have said the withdrawal bit should have been done carefully and gradually over, say, 5 years, and the future trade should be a FTA sitting alongside cooperation in many non-trade areas with no quid pro quo connecting them. I predict if we had done that, everyone would have been happier.

If is such a big word.

[AndyClaret]

8 Labour MPs have proposed an amendment giving Parliament greater scrutiny over the process.

Two of them are already voting for the deal, and that does suggest another six will as well.

But they need at least thirty I think.

A sensible amendment that should, (but probably won't) be adopted.

[Bordeauxclaret]

ive got a 0 criminal record i even catch spiders and let them go outside and ive got no intentions on that changing but...

i can be extremely nasty at the voting booth and that is where my efforts will be going,apparently one of the highest search topics online is

"the Brexit Party" last time 4 million UKIP votes caused mayhem my guess is that is tiny compared to whats coming...

Are you planning a dirty protest in the style of Gus Poyet?

[TheFamilyCat]

Perfect day for a bit of Brexity rioting. Spring in the air, glorious sunshine.

Unfortunately, rioting is a young man's game. So expect some furious Facebook memes from your dad's mates and not much else.

Still, happy Brexit Day!

There’s about 30 of them who will be wandering around London. They’ve walked all the way from Sunderland (except for the bits they got a bus).

[Lancasterclaret]

Best bit was definitely when they were down to walk 75 miles in one day. Needless to say they didn't manage it, in Brexit metaphor no 472345

[Mala591]

The country voted to leave so now the country should decide exactly HOW we leave:

1. May's deal
2. May's deal plus customs union
3. No deal WTO Brexit

[CrosspoolClarets]

Question Time was from my constituency last night (just half a mile from my house) so was chock a block with rabid Remainers, but there was a good debate.

Yanis Varoufakis was suggesting the deal is only one a country would sign if it had been defeated at war, and he argued the cliff edge has just been shifted 2 years. The Next CEO disagreed, suggesting that the deal gives certainty to business.

I must admit to believing the Next guy rather than Yanis (both of whom I admire greatly), the backstop at least prevents the cliff edge appearing again, so no deal and a new referendum are both off the table. That’s why I would now sign it.

[summitclaret]

A sensible amendment that should, (but probably won't) be adopted.

Mr remainer in the limelight does not pick any amendments. The Nandy amendment makes perfect sense and could have meant that we would be leaving the EU. Also enacting the biggest ever public vote for anything. Shame on you Bercow. You have your name in history as a confirmed ******.

[tiger76]

ive got a 0 criminal record i even catch spiders and let them go outside and ive got no intentions on that changing but...

i can be extremely nasty at the voting booth and that is where my efforts will be going,apparently one of the highest search topics online is

"the Brexit Party" last time 4 million UKIP votes caused mayhem my guess is that is tiny compared to whats coming...

"the Brexit party" already polling 5% without any campaigning,it's feasible they could match or better UKIP'S 13% from 2015.

Under FPTP they might not gain many or any seats,but they will impact on the red and blue traitors,and either's ability to gain an outright majority,whenever the next general election is held.

I'd wager they pose a bigger danger to the Tories nationwide,but in places like Burnley they have the potential to obtain a good amount of Labour leave voters.

In a European election they would comfortably top the poll,with the lower turn-out they could be pushing 40%.

[AndyClaret]

Mr remainer in the limelight does not pick any amendments. The Nandy amendment makes perfect sense and could have meant that we would be leaving the EU. Also enacting the biggest ever public vote for anything. Shame on you Bercow. You have your name in history as a confirmed ******.

Yep, Bercow blocks all amendments.

[AndyClaret]

Attorney General just said they would have accepted the Labour amendment, but Bercow has blocked it, nope not interfering at all.

[nil_desperandum]

This is very interesting and hopefully will bring over more Labour mps from leave seats. Are there enough without career prospects ti do it? Julie Cooper are you brave enough to do what 2/3rds of your town voted for?

Really?
2/3rds of (to be accurate) those who voted in the Burnley constituency voted for May's deal back in 2016?
"You cannot be serious"

[summitclaret]

That acceptance shoild be a gamecharger labour now have no excuse for voting against Brexit. Julie Cooper should now support the government today. If not any brexit party candidate in the forthcoming GE will be in with a strong chance.

[summitclaret]

Really?
2/3rds of (to be accurate) those who voted in the Burnley constituency voted for May's deal back in 2016?
"You cannot be serious"

If course they voted for leaving the EU.

[nil_desperandum]

In a European election they would comfortably top the poll,with the lower turn-out they could be pushing 40%.

Why do you assume there would be a low turn-out?
EU elections would be the People's Vote that remainers have been demanding, and for which support has been growing.
If remainers don't turn out in huge numbers then they will lose all credibility.
Anyway the legal wisdom is that we don't need to have these Eu elections, so you can guarantee that the government will not hold them.

[nil_desperandum]

If course they voted for leaving the EU.

But not under these terms, that's the point.