Brexit: The Naked Truth

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Hipper
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Hipper » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:45 am

nil_desperandum wrote:"

Predicted response: "Yeh.. but... but... but....."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 42506.html


Here's the original document:

https://d2rpq8wtqka5kg.cloudfront.net/4 ... R6FQV6VYIA

If you read this you will see that the Independent article ignores certain facts.

Migrants are cheaper then locals because they weren't born and educated at the expense UK tax payers - they come ready made. Secondly they are young and fit and so do not require so much help as older natives. Thirdly the increase in population resulting partly from migrants means we need to provide more health, housing and education services which has to be paid for and I don't see any mention of this. Furthermore, many migrants transmit some of their earnings home, which is surely a loss to our economy. Also, although I'm not sure what the exact rules are, if they pay National Insurance are they not entitled to some sort of pension when they retire, wherever they will be living?

# 2
Jakubclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Jakubclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:08 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:Even by mouth-frothing brexiteer standards, that’s quite a rant. However, I think you are massively overestimating how big an issue illegal employment is. Can I just remind you of the first post I quoted which reads as if you are accusing all EU labour of being available for below NMW:



So, if only a very small minority of the migrant workforce are working illegally, and to use your terminology “cheaply”, why are you claiming that cheap labour is so widely available?

Immigration is so much out of control we don’t have any traceability really determining numbers wise who’s working illegally & who isn’t, it’s a frightening that we don’t really know much about their history in their previous countries with no CRBs or DBS to rely upon, I think it’s important to have such information for our own security & well being, the idea does not sit comfortably with me regarding mass immigration. Cheap EU labour is widely available it’s a well known fact I’m surprised you are trying to dispute this.

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Hipper
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Hipper » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:18 pm

martin_p wrote:She was elected on a manifesto that promised a Brexit with a customs union. Not voting for May’s deal has been entirely consistent with that.


◾Exit the European single market and customs union but seek a "deep and special partnership" including comprehensive free trade and customs agreement

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39960311
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martin_p
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Hipper wrote:◾Exit the European single market and customs union but seek a "deep and special partnership" including comprehensive free trade and customs agreement

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39960311


Why are you linking the Tory manifesto when we’re talking about a Labour MP?

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TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:32 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Immigration is so much out of control we don’t have any traceability really determining numbers wise who’s working illegally & who isn’t, it’s a frightening that we don’t really know much about their history in their previous countries with no CRBs or DBS to rely upon, I think it’s important to have such information for our own security & well being, the idea does not sit comfortably with me regarding mass immigration. Cheap EU labour is widely available it’s a well known fact I’m surprised you are trying to dispute this.


Again, you’re typing a lot but saying nothing. You’re skirting around defining “cheap” as being willing to work for NMW or work illegally for less.

You don’t need to answer because the sun’s out, there’s beer to drink and football to watch and anyway, i’m a bit bored of this now.

You have failed to substantiate your claims and done nothing more than provide more evidence to support people’s view of you.

So, if you din’t mind, i’m going to leave you with a little song (apoligies to the late, great Roy Castle)

Immigration, ooooh immigration
Immigration, that’s what you mean
It’s why you voted Leave
In Tommy you believe
Ooooh, immigration’s what you mean
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby elwaclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So your solution is to compromise by letting them win both over there and over here?

It's a long time since I did my degree in history (with a politics spin off) and your argument is certainly not new, but your conclusion certainly is.


Why do you assume leavers come from the right? Or from far left? I am neither and I voted to leave. People have as many reasons for leaving as those who want to remain. To try to lump them together in a nicely boxed group only alienates and leads to further polarisation which is why I chose to remain detached. Economic uncertainty quickly breeds Nationalism, Nationalism leads to a polarisation of opinions which feeds economic uncertainty... standard history stuff. Remainers want to work from the inside of Europe to work from the inside... but several have left their political parties because they feel unable to overcome their differences... why is that different to European politics? A European parliament about to hold elections and seeming to demonstrate strong divisions along traditional Nationalist lines. Napoleon started off a pure democrat in the French Revolution, as did Mussolini... more or less any dictator in history took power to do "good" but stopped listening as they knew what was best for the nation/people...

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BennyD
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:08 pm

Yesterday marked the death of democracy in this country; centrist politics is now a totally busted flush with too many incompetent self-serving pricks masquerading as MPs. So, sadly, at the upcoming General Election I will be voting for the hard right, if only to keep out the hard left as, IMO, that must not be allowed to happen. I welcome the hate that will be poured on me from the Marxists on here but I couldn’t give a f*ck, much like the MPs in Westminster. Happy days.

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Lord Beamish
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lord Beamish » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:31 pm

BennyD wrote:Yesterday marked the death of democracy in this country; centrist politics is now a totally busted flush with too many incompetent self-serving pricks masquerading as MPs. So, sadly, at the upcoming General Election I will be voting for the hard right, if only to keep out the hard left as, IMO, that must not be allowed to happen. I welcome the hate that will be poured on me from the Marxists on here but I couldn’t give a f*ck, much like the MPs in Westminster. Happy days.

I bet your bottom lip trembled as you typed that.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:35 pm

BennyD wrote:Yesterday marked the death of democracy in this country; centrist politics is now a totally busted flush with too many incompetent self-serving pricks masquerading as MPs. So, sadly, at the upcoming General Election I will be voting for the hard right, if only to keep out the hard left as, IMO, that must not be allowed to happen. I welcome the hate that will be poured on me from the Marxists on here but I couldn’t give a f*ck, much like the MPs in Westminster. Happy days.



Whatever lie you have to tell yourself to justify your vote for extremists, the rest of us don't believe it. We know why you're voting for extremists, it's because you like their extreme views.

"I only voted for the Nazis because i opposed the Socialists", said the German. "But you still voted for the Nazis", replied the Jew.
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BennyD
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:50 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:I bet your bottom lip trembled as you typed that.


You’d lose.

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:58 pm

BennyD wrote:You’d lose.

Who'd lose what?
I'm not clear.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:01 pm

The bet.

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:09 pm

BennyD wrote:The bet.

Sorry, (genuinely), not clear.
What bet?
(I've gone back a few posts).

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summitclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:11 pm

There is no need to go hard right (the new ukip) The Brexit party will not be hard right. The muppets on here thibk Boris is hard right. He is not at all just a chancer

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:24 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Whatever lie you have to tell yourself to justify your vote for extremists, the rest of us don't believe it. We know why you're voting for extremists, it's because you like their extreme views.

"I only voted for the Nazis because i opposed the Socialists", said the German. "But you still voted for the Nazis", replied the Jew.


There you go again making stupid assumptions again. I’m not telling myself lies because our central party parliament has shown the world what a useless club it is. What extreme views do I like exactly? Mass deportations, concentration camps, mass executions? Please do tell. Btw, I hope you save the same level of opprobrium for those on here that vote for Labour at the next election, because they are voting for the same kind of extremists on the left. Or doesn’t that count?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:27 pm

BennyD wrote:There you go again making stupid assumptions again. I’m not telling myself lies because our central party parliament has shown the world what a useless club it is. What extreme views do I like exactly? Mass deportations, concentration camps, mass executions? Please do tell. Btw, I hope you save the same level of opprobrium for those on here that vote for Labour at the next election, because they are voting for the same kind of extremists on the left. Or doesn’t that count?


:lol: Because Lefties hate Jews. You hear that everyone? Ken Livingstone was an anti-semite therefore everyone in and voting for Labour is an anti-semite who supported the holocaust.

:lol:

Hilariously (to me) i'm actually in the middle of watching a video about some idiot saying that Nazism is leftist, is it you?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:53 pm

:) I suppose no Jews were ever sent to the Gulags and, of course, Labour has never had a history of anti-semitism. Your trite sarcasm shows just what a plum you are and why I am going to block you and your stupidity yet again. Out.

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Greenmile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Greenmile » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:10 pm

BennyD wrote:There you go again making stupid assumptions again. I’m not telling myself lies because our central party parliament has shown the world what a useless club it is. What extreme views do I like exactly? Mass deportations, concentration camps, mass executions? Please do tell. Btw, I hope you save the same level of opprobrium for those on here that vote for Labour at the next election, because they are voting for the same kind of extremists on the left. Or doesn’t that count?


You claimed that the holocaust was a price worth paying for Germany’s economic success since 1945. That’s a pretty extreme view.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BennyD » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:43 pm

No I didn’t. As far as I am aware, precisely no Jews have been killed by the German state since 1945 that’s why I said since 1945, it seems to be. Try twisting my words all you want but I am not putting Germany’s success down to the holocaust and I never will. The regime that caused the deaths of millions of innocent Jews ended in a bunker in Berlin in 1945 so, IMO, there is a clear line in the sand. If you don’t agree, that’s your problem, not mine,

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:50 pm

BennyD wrote:No I didn’t. As far as I am aware, precisely no Jews have been killed by the German state since 1945 that’s why I said since 1945, it seems to be. Try twisting my words all you want but I am not putting Germany’s success down to the holocaust and I never will. The regime that caused the deaths of millions of innocent Jews ended in a bunker in Berlin in 1945 so, IMO, there is a clear line in the sand. If you don’t agree, that’s your problem, not mine,

Totally agree, but then they haven't elected any far-right extremist, racist fascists since 1945, and that was how we got to this point in the discussion.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby JohnMcGreal » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:01 pm

BennyD wrote:What extreme views do I like exactly?


I remember the days when wanting your country to cut itself off from its biggest trading partner by ripping up every trade arrangement it had, while simultaneously falling out of most of its legal and regulatory frameworks was considered an extreme view. Good times.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:00 am

So we now after tom watson's finally know what labour policy is.

It's a soft Brexit with a confirmatory referendum ( I refuse to call it a people's vote). He said it would be a soft brexit v remain. So basically remain light v remain heavy. Absolutely barmy and a gift to the Tories.

I say this is good news for the government because the Government and DUP and many Labour mps will never agree to a referendum. Linking that to a CU should prevent what would otherwise push a soft brexit through

I am typing this whilst the BBC promote remain through Marr giving Major a free pass to basically say what Watson just said

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:47 pm

summitclaret wrote:So we now after tom watson's finally know what labour policy is.

It's a soft Brexit with a confirmatory referendum ( I refuse to call it a people's vote). He said it would be a soft brexit v remain. So basically remain light v remain heavy. Absolutely barmy and a gift to the Tories.

In what sense?
Is there any policy that the Tories can coalesce on at present? You know that the answer is NO, and Gauke confirmed this on Marr this morning.
So as things stand Labour have a policy that's pretty much in line with what they agreed at Party Conference, and one which has a lot of support across the country as a whole. (By no means all I accept)
Meanwhile the Tories are openly saying that they will avoid a Gen Election at all costs, essentially because they are impossibly divided.
How can they run a coherent election campaign or come up with a manifesto policy that unites high profile figures such as Hammond, Gauke, Gove and Rudd on one hand, and Johnson, Raab, Rees-Mogg, and Baker on the other? To say nothing of the more extreme elements such as Cash, Bone and Redwood!!!!
The only real problem that Labour have would be Corbyn's leadership and some of his policies.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:32 pm

Labour the party of the working class ? I remember when that was true and now backing 2nd referendum it's hard to believe they have become so far detached from their roots...shocking

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:39 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Labour the party of the working class ? I remember when that was true and now backing 2nd referendum it's hard to believe they have become so far detached from their roots...shocking

Well if you think that protecting jobs, workers rights / working conditions, and standing up for the NHS, (and opposing austerity) goes against traditional labour values then fair enough.
Or maybe you suppose that Rees-Mogg, Redwood, Jenkin, Johnson etc. are doing all this for the working class in the north?
Best to vote for them then.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:56 pm

You know part of the reason Austerity was implemented originally was Labours shocking poor financial running of the country don't you?

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:03 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You know part of the reason Austerity was implemented originally was Labours shocking poor financial running of the country don't you?

Actually, no.
I thought it was down to an international banking crisis and crash, and I also recall, (backed up by evidence), that Osborne supported all Labour's spending plans, (and indeed often said he would spend more), until the point that we had the crash.
I also recall that internationally Gordon Brown was given a lot of credit for his handling of the crisis.
But ten years on, continue to blame austerity solely on the previous Labour administration if you want to believe that.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:15 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Well if you think that protecting jobs, workers rights / working conditions, and standing up for the NHS, (and opposing austerity) goes against traditional labour values then fair enough.
Or maybe you suppose that Rees-Mogg, Redwood, Jenkin, Johnson etc. are doing all this for the working class in the north?
Best to vote for them then.


I'm sure the millions of labour voters who put a cross on leave won't agree and conservatives too they both want to be very careful about pushing for a GE as it could be the biggest movement from red blue to a third party in history..

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:31 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Actually, no.
I thought it was down to an international banking crisis and crash, and I also recall, (backed up by evidence), that Osborne supported all Labour's spending plans, (and indeed often said he would spend more), until the point that we had the crash.
I also recall that internationally Gordon Brown was given a lot of credit for his handling of the crisis.
But ten years on, continue to blame austerity solely on the previous Labour administration if you want to believe that.


Can you read?
Did I solely blame labour?

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:41 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Can you read?
Did I solely blame labour?

Well I know you didn't, but the implication of your post is that it would have been Ok if the Tories had been in power because their economic policies leading up to the crash would have been radically different to the Labour administration, whereas proper research of that period reveals that the Conservative opposition's economic arguments and policies were very similar to Brown's and in some areas they advocated spending more.
Additionally Labour did nothing to regulate the banks, which was an error, but the Conservatives would have opposed this vehemently if they had advocated far greater interference and regulation.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:23 pm

A 2nd Referendum
Can’t really be won by leave as there would still be a remain Parliament
A GE would align parliament to the people

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:27 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:A 2nd Referendum
Can’t really be won by leave as there would still be a remain Parliament
A GE would align parliament to the people

Except it almost certainly wouldn't / couldn't - because we have the FPTP system.
Comparing a referendum result to a gen Election is like comparing apples to pears.
Quite possible that a "brexit" party could get say 20% of the votes and get absolutely no seats.
You'll know from my posts that I'm anti-UKip, butI'm in total sympathy that the Parliamentary system is weighted unfairly against parties such as that.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:29 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You know part of the reason Austerity was implemented originally was Labours shocking poor financial running of the country don't you?


Yes. Labour are responsible for the global financial meltdown.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:32 pm

Only mentions labour in his post as a reason for Austerity then suggests he wasn't just blaming Labour. GGWP
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:37 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Except it almost certainly wouldn't / couldn't - because we have the FPTP system.
Comparing a referendum result to a gen Election is like comparing apples to pears.
Quite possible that a "brexit" party could get say 20% of the votes and get absolutely no seats.
You'll know from my posts that I'm anti-UKip, butI'm in total sympathy that the Parliamentary system is weighted unfairly against parties such as that.


I think that both Labour and Cons would remove remain mps and replace with leave mps in leave areas or they’d lose the election if the other did and they didn’t.
Labour don’t want an election for that reason

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:39 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:A 2nd Referendum
Can’t really be won by leave as there would still be a remain Parliament
A GE would align parliament to the people


We’ve had a general election since the referendum so parliament is already aligned to the people. We’ve already said no to a hard Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:39 pm

Sophie Ridge questioning Emma Thornberry on Sky Another Labour Mp that will not commit to any policy

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:51 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Labour don’t want an election for that reason

I think you might just have that the wrong way round.
Labour have been constantly arguing for a GE, and it's in just about every paper this morning that's there's no way Conservatives will vote for one, because (as should be obvious to you) they are totally divided, and couldn't possibly present a united front or unite behind any single manifesto pledge on Europe.
(I'm not saying that Labour would win mind, in fact I don't think there's much chance of any party getting an overall majority at present - and so to get back to it, that's why there won't be one.)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:54 pm

martin_p wrote:We’ve had a general election since the referendum so parliament is already aligned to the people. We’ve already said no to a hard Brexit.


After the last election the winners got their time in power as would Labour if they’d won
After the Referendum a remain PM and a parliament full of Remain MPs have not enacted it.
Strangely all MPs including Labour MPs don’t want an election despite JCs repeated calls for one.
They know and you know that the majority of the country still want to leave.
We won’t accept another Referendum as it can be side stepped and diluted.
As nil desp said above FPTP makes it a non perfect answer to this problem but the only one that can not be sidestepped

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:58 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I think you might just have that the wrong way round.
Labour have been constantly arguing for a GE, and it's in just about every paper this morning that's there's no way Conservatives will vote for one, because (as should be obvious to you) they are totally divided, and couldn't possibly present a united front or unite behind any single manifesto pledge on Europe.
(I'm not saying that Labour would win mind, in fact I don't think there's much chance of any party getting an overall majority at present - and so to get back to it, that's why there won't be one.)


Labour don’t want one Pal despite JCs call for one.
They’ve loads of Remain MPs from leave areas
They want a GE after Brexit
Both Con & Labour are scared of Farage

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:01 pm

Both Con & Labour are scared of Farage


They aren't.

The issue is that it would be a close call, and people voting for the extremist parties who would normally vote Lab or Cons might swing a hung parliament to a Lab or Con majority.

Neither side want that, but Farage and his ilk have as much chance of winning a seat as I do (and I fully agree that is unfair if they get loads of votes, which is why I'm in favour of PR)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:02 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:After the last election the winners got their time in power as would Labour if they’d won
After the Referendum a remain PM and a parliament full of Remain MPs have not enacted it.
Strangely all MPs including Labour MPs don’t want an election despite JCs repeated calls for one.
They know and you know that the majority of the country still want to leave.
We won’t accept another Referendum as it can be side stepped and diluted.
As nil desp said above FPTP makes it a non perfect answer to this problem but the only one that can not be sidestepped


Lazily I Didn’t read your full post before replying to it, but I do think the majority will be leave MP’s though.
People want a 2nd Referendum know that they could win it by default, for many a reason.
However they know that a GE will deliver a Leave Parliament.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:04 pm

However they know that a GE will deliver a Leave Parliament.


Only if its a Conservative landslide.

And if that happens, then Brexit will be the least of our problems up here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Only if its a Conservative landslide.

And if that happens, then Brexit will be the least of our problems up here.


So you’d be happier with Corbyn?
I’ll help you out with that, Jeremy Corbyn is the reason the Tories scraped by last time out.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:12 pm

I'm no Corbyn fan, but a Conservative majority under someone like Raab?

In what way does that help Burnley and the north?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:13 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Only if its a Conservative landslide.

And if that happens, then Brexit will be the least of our problems up here.

If there’s a GE
Which Labour does not want before Brexit
MPs standing on a leave platform will form the Majority of Parliament IMO

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm no Corbyn fan, but a Conservative majority under someone like Raab?

In what way does that help Burnley and the north?


Firstly by leaving the EU
Secondly not at all and it will be the fault of those that have subverted democracy.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:16 pm

I don't think anyone can make that call though.

Lab voters are not going to vote Conservative because of Brexit, and ditto the other way.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:17 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Firstly by leaving the EU
Secondly not at all and it will be the fault of those that have subverted democracy.


That how fanatics justify doing something silly.

You can't vote for something that you know will be bad.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby bfcjg » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:18 pm

I think we should come out with the current deal that has been negotiated with give and take on both sides but with a provision we can have another referendum to remain anytime after say 2 years just so we have a genuine backstop.


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