Brexit: The Naked Truth

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
# 1
Greenmile
Posts: 2147
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 664 times
Has Liked: 2214 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Greenmile » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:06 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:You know we don't want to control our borders because of trade.... Scoffs


dsr wrote:I doubt that. I dare say some people on both sides thought that there would be a big wall (literal or metaphorical) in the middle of the sea, but I think most people expected that people would still be able to come in and out as freely as they do now, and "control of borders" meant the right to stop people living here permanently. Not stopping them coming on holiday.


Brexiters - “it’s all about sovereignty and self-determination. Not just keeping out the immigrants.”

Also brexiters - “actually, it’s just about our sovereign rights to keep the immigrants out”

At least the likes of Jakub have always been honest about their xenophobia.

# 2
BleedingClaret
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 654 times
Has Liked: 1191 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:09 pm

Greenmile wrote:Brexiters - “it’s all about sovereignty and self-determination. Not just keeping out the immigrants.”

Also brexiters - “actually, it’s just about our sovereign rights to keep the immigrants out”

At least the likes of Jakub have always been honest about their xenophobia.


How many have you spoken to of the 17.4mil
This user liked this post: Damo

# 3
BleedingClaret
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 654 times
Has Liked: 1191 times
Location: Burnley Boy exiled in Nelson

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:10 pm

martin_p wrote:You been stood up or something?


yeah by an old bird called Theresa

# 4
Jakubclaret
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 194 times
Has Liked: 157 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Jakubclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Greenmile wrote:Brexiters - “it’s all about sovereignty and self-determination. Not just keeping out the immigrants.”

Also brexiters - “actually, it’s just about our sovereign rights to keep the immigrants out”

At least the likes of Jakub have always been honest about their xenophobia.

I could say the same about you & your ilk & your sinister motives, it's well concealed behind a cloak of respectability, if i was really xenophobic i wouldn't be in favour of controlled immigration I'd want none.

# 5
Greenmile
Posts: 2147
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 664 times
Has Liked: 2214 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Greenmile » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:28 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:I could say the same about you & your ilk & your sinister motives, it's well concealed behind a cloak of respectability, if i was really xenophobic i wouldn't be in favour of controlled immigration I'd want none.


I call you honest, and you return the favour by calling my motives sinister? Remind me never to pay you a compliment again.

# 6
Lowbankclaret
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 409 times
Has Liked: 31 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:37 pm

Bacchus wrote:Why is that such an issue? We'd have democratically elected representatives until such a point when we decide whether or not we need them. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.



Because the EU have redistributed 26 of our 75 seats already. They are getting ready for the election.

If we contest them they have to remove the new 26 seats to give us back our 75 seats.

For that you need time to organise.

# 7
Lowbankclaret
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 409 times
Has Liked: 31 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:44 pm

Just listened to Corbyns response.

He will meet May but reserves the right to a vote of no confidence in the government.

He says the gov does not have the support of the commons or the people.

Code for I want a GE.

# 8
Bacchus
Posts: 912
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:07 pm
Been Liked: 599 times
Has Liked: 171 times
Contact:

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Bacchus » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:56 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Because the EU have redistributed 26 of our 75 seats already. They are getting ready for the election.

If we contest them they have to remove the new 26 seats to give us back our 75 seats.

For that you need time to organise.


If there wasn't sufficient time the EU wouldn't still be talking about the possibility of extending A50.

# 9
Lowbankclaret
Posts: 2229
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:42 pm
Been Liked: 409 times
Has Liked: 31 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:13 pm

Bacchus wrote:If there wasn't sufficient time the EU wouldn't still be talking about the possibility of extending A50.



The politicians were talking about an extension till 22nd May, they are not going to allow that. Maybe a couple of weeks.

Macron might veto it though

# 10
CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 2203
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 728 times
Has Liked: 185 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:16 pm

She is making a career out of misjudgement, deceit, about turns and cowardice.

The Tories have spent the last 4 years slagging off Corbyn, calling him unfit for office and staying ahead in the polls despite the Brexit mishandling. Now, they invite him to name his price.

Obviously economically we all have different views. Some prefer it, but I view the Customs Union as far worse than no deal, economically, on a 20 year view (economists don’t predict the kind of EU shafting the UK that I foresee in their trade deals, so you won’t find my prediction modelled anywhere).

Politically though, we may all agree that this is a disaster for the Tories. Very hard to see how they can spin this. The local elections are likely to be catastrophic, and these people affected are often the main Tory activists who campaign hard for them during general elections.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

# 11
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:17 pm

Unlikely

Everyone who knows what they are talking about knows a "No Deal" is really bad. I know its unusual, but they don't think Brian from Haslingden with his WTO knowledge might not be as well informed as he needs to be. More fool them eh?

But seriously, talking about a long extension but with an instant break clause if the UK can agree a deal.

# 12
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:19 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:She is making a career out of misjudgement, deceit, about turns and cowardice.

The Tories have spent the last 4 years slagging off Corbyn, calling him unfit for office and staying ahead in the polls despite the Brexit mishandling. Now, they invite him to name his price.

Obviously economically we all have different views. Some prefer it, but I view the Customs Union as far worse than no deal, economically, on a 20 year view (economists don’t predict the kind of EU shafting the UK that I foresee in their trade deals, so you won’t find my prediction modelled anywhere).

Politically though, we may all agree that this is a disaster for the Tories. Very hard to see how they can spin this. The local elections are likely to be catastrophic, and these people affected are often the main Tory activists who campaign hard for them during general elections.


I seriously doubt Mays motives, and its far too early to start saying "good move/bad move" but she might well have realised that the zealots in the DUP and the ERG will never compromise on anything, so she might as well try something else.

And if this does come off, then the ERG and the DUP only have themselves to blame.

Long way to go yet though, but this could be the first time in this whole sorry process that someone has put the country first.

Lets hope it continues.

# 13
martin_p
Posts: 4961
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1688 times
Has Liked: 410 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:20 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Politically though, we may all agree that this is a disaster for the Tories. Very hard to see how they can spin this. The local elections are likely to be catastrophic, and these people affected are often the main Tory activists who campaign hard for them during general elections.


Ah well, every cloud.....

# 14
martin_p
Posts: 4961
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1688 times
Has Liked: 410 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:23 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I seriously doubt Mays motives, and its far too early to start saying "good move/bad move" but she might well have realised that the zealots in the DUP and the ERG will never compromise on anything, so she might as well try something else.

And if this does come off, then the ERG and the DUP only have themselves to blame.

Long way to go yet though, but this could be the first time in this whole sorry process that someone has put the country first.

Lets hope it continues.



It may be that she figures the one thing the ERG and the DUP hate more than her withdrawal agreement is Jeremy Corbyn. A last attempt to get them on side?
This user liked this post: crundale

# 15
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:26 pm

They both have gone completely batshit mental, and the pro-Brexit newspapers have gone into overdrive.

Be **** funny that despite all the pressure, all the money spent on getting us all to think this is a great idea, if we actually leave with a consensus deal across the commons.

Still very unlikely, but it might hold long enough to agree the extension we need.

# 16
CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 2203
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 728 times
Has Liked: 185 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:27 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I seriously doubt Mays motives, and its far too early to start saying "good move/bad move" but she might well have realised that the zealots in the DUP and the ERG will never compromise on anything, so she might as well try something else.

And if this does come off, then the ERG and the DUP only have themselves to blame.

Long way to go yet though, but this could be the first time in this whole sorry process that someone has put the country first.

Lets hope it continues.


No way has May put the country first. She is hanging onto power for the sake of power itself. Anyone with integrity would have resigned long ago. I think she is only thinking of her legacy, she needs a deal through, any deal. To hell with the pros and cons.

It’ll probably work, and the Goves et al will be thinking they can then bin her off, get a new leader, and kick the Customs Union back out of the political declaration afterwards (maybe after an election in 12 months time).

# 17
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:29 pm

martin_p wrote:It may be that she figures the one thing the ERG and the DUP hate more than her withdrawal agreement is Jeremy Corbyn. A last attempt to get them on side?


They have to decide what is more important - Labour government or Brexit.

Its actually quite good politics from May in that respect, but this should have been done months ago and the timescale is so tight, and trust so non-existent that I doubt it will work.

I'd be hoping Corbyn talks to her while backing the indicative votes process, but you never know with him if he's actually up for this kind of leadership.

Imagine being at the stage where you have to rely on Corbyn!

# 18
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:30 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:No way has May put the country first. She is hanging onto power for the sake of power itself. Anyone with integrity would have resigned long ago. I think she is only thinking of her legacy, she needs a deal through, any deal. To hell with the pros and cons.

It’ll probably work, and the Goves et al will be thinking they can then bin her off, get a new leader, and kick the Customs Union back out of the political declaration afterwards (maybe after an election in 12 months time).


Quite possibly, but at this moment in time we need a deal.

And if the Conservatives want to go all UKIP and think they can win, then I'm more than happy to let them try and find out the hard way just how shallow that support base is.

# 19
Spiral
Posts: 1902
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 809 times
Has Liked: 176 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spiral » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:31 pm

Lots of journos on twitter reporting the reactions to today's change of strategy, it's been wild to say the least. Next three days are going to be huge. Apparently there's hope the Cooper bill can have three readings in one day!!! This is wartime pacing. If May is sincere about compromise (and judging by the fury of some brexiteers, it appears she's deadly serious), then she has just thrown herself on the no-deal grenade. Some sources reporting that she'll work to avoid no-deal even if Labour refuse to play nice.

# 20
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:34 pm

Spiral wrote:Lots of journos on twitter reporting the reactions to today's change of strategy, it's been wild to say the least. Next three days are going to be huge. Apparently there's hope the Cooper bill can have three readings in one day!!! This is wartime pacing. If May is sincere about compromise (and judging by the fury of some brexiteers, it appears she's deadly serious), then she has just thrown herself on the no-deal grenade. Some sources reporting that she'll work to avoid no-deal even if Labour refuse to play nice.


Its such a dramatic change from her though.

If she's finally found her own road to Damascus, I wonder what made her go down it?

I would love to think it was Marc Francois being an complete dick but its probably my favourite word.

REALITY

# 21
Jakubclaret
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 194 times
Has Liked: 157 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Jakubclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:They have to decide what is more important - Labour government or Brexit.

Its actually quite good politics from May in that respect, but this should have been done months ago and the timescale is so tight, and trust so non-existent that I doubt it will work.

I'd be hoping Corbyn talks to her while backing the indicative votes process, but you never know with him if he's actually up for this kind of leadership.

Imagine being at the stage where you have to rely on Corbyn!

Political suicide for Corbyn to endorse a deal misaligned & at odds with the leave labour stance, it'd be a gift to the right & fracture his party even more, JC would like a GE whilst Mays in power & fighting already within the tories, not to challenge a newcomer within the blue ranks & somebody with a clean slate, mays mud.

# 22
Spiral
Posts: 1902
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 809 times
Has Liked: 176 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spiral » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Political suicide for Corbyn to endorse a deal misaligned & at odds with the leave labour stance, it'd be a gift to the right & fracture his party even more, JC would like a GE whilst Mays in power & fighting already within the tories, not to challenge a newcomer within the blue ranks & somebody with a clean slate, mays mud.


It depends how far May is willing to bend to avoid no-deal, but Labour's brexit alternatives and six tests (putting aside the debate on the worth of those six tests) were discussed at the cabinet meeting. Not entirely inconceivable that Labour's version of brexit could be the final outcome as what we know of it is infinitely more likely to command a majority and is supported by the EU. It's down to political will on the Conservatives part and considerations for the marginals they hold. I imagine they have got their polling and data scientists working overtime.
This user liked this post: longsidepies

# 23
CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 2203
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 728 times
Has Liked: 185 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Quite possibly, but at this moment in time we need a deal.

And if the Conservatives want to go all UKIP and think they can win, then I'm more than happy to let them try and find out the hard way just how shallow that support base is.


Well, indeed. But not a deal at all costs.

The support base is a weird one. Only 8% of people now say they are defined by a political party, but multiples of this say they are defined by Leave or Remain. Both parties seem very vulnerable. A pro Brexit centrist party like the SDP could become a threat. The key is the Tory donors. Will they stick or twist? Their second biggest donor in the last quarter was Lord Bamford (JCB) who is pro Brexit. People like him are key.

# 24
Jakubclaret
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 194 times
Has Liked: 157 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Jakubclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:10 pm

Spiral wrote:It depends how far May is willing to bend to avoid no-deal, but Labour's brexit alternatives and six tests (putting aside the debate on the worth of those six tests) were discussed at the cabinet meeting. Not entirely inconceivable that Labour's version of brexit could be the final outcome as what we know of it is infinitely more likely to command a majority and is supported by the EU. It's down to political will on the Conservatives part and considerations for the marginals they hold. I imagine they have got their polling and data scientists working overtime.

The working class labour supporter more in touch with labour leave i think would turn, it could spring a leadership challenge with them, i guess we will see what happens, if he choose to alienate the more typical down to earth labour supporters, it's very risky, any substantial deviation from the ideals that people expected from the manifesto won't go down well. We will see in due course.

# 25
Claret-On-A-T-Rex
Posts: 1308
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Been Liked: 303 times
Has Liked: 2123 times
Contact:

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:14 pm

If Corbyn had any sense he'd be asking for a billion pound backhander like the DUP.
These 3 users liked this post: martin_p longsidepies If it be your will

# 26
nil_desperandum
Posts: 5333
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1280 times
Has Liked: 2348 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:19 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:To have a 2nd ref, we will have to contest the EU elections.
I am not against one but it’s a fact of EU law.

Not according to some lawyers who were asked about it, and others interviewed on TV and Radio.
I posted a link a few pages back. Can't be bothered to keep going back over old ground, but you'll find it if you're interested.

# 27
dsr
Posts: 8553
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2582 times
Has Liked: 1105 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:23 pm

Spiral wrote:It depends how far May is willing to bend to avoid no-deal, but Labour's brexit alternatives and six tests (putting aside the debate on the worth of those six tests) were discussed at the cabinet meeting. Not entirely inconceivable that Labour's version of brexit could be the final outcome as what we know of it is infinitely more likely to command a majority and is supported by the EU. It's down to political will on the Conservatives part and considerations for the marginals they hold. I imagine they have got their polling and data scientists working overtime.

How far will she bend? As far as it takes. I don't think we have ever had a less principled Prime Minister - her one and only aim is to remain Prime Minister, and she will say whatever she thinks will get her votes to do it. She has tried "no deal is better than a bad deal", but has withdrawn. She has tried "we will not ask for a delay", and has asked for two. She has opposed the House of Commons taking control, now she says she wants it to take control. She has frequently said her deal is the only one going, and now she is going to collect a raft of different packages to take to the EU.

She is useless. There is a saying about people in work - they can be hard working or lazy, they can be clever or stupid.

If they are clever and hard working, they will make good managers. Promote them.
If they are stupid and lazy, they can be made useful by application of the boot. Retain them.
If they are clever and lazy, they have the innovative mind that should be running the company.
But if they are stupid and hard working, they are a menace to everyone around. Get rid of them.

I know which category Theresa May falls into.

# 28
Spiral
Posts: 1902
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 809 times
Has Liked: 176 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Spiral » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:33 pm

So great, in fact, is her desire to remain as PM that she even announced she'll be stepping down as PM before the next phase of the negotiations. If that isn't a Machiavellian grab at power, I don't know what is.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

# 29
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:39 pm

No one is doubting that she is useless, but it's just possible she is dealing with something called reality.

A no deal is a really bad idea. It's time for people like you to get that

# 30
dsr
Posts: 8553
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2582 times
Has Liked: 1105 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:40 pm

Spiral wrote:So great, in fact, is her desire to remain as PM that she even announced she'll be stepping down as PM before the next phase of the negotiations. If that isn't a Machiavellian grab at power, I don't know what is.

If she announced it would go dark before morning, I would have my doubts. Maybe the Machiavellian bit is that while her opponents (nearly everyone, by now, surely?) think she is going to resign, they won't be moving to sack her. So she clings on.

As the UK constitution has it, no government can commit a future government to a specific course of action. May takes this even further - nothing she says will commit even herself to a specific future action. She will wait and see which way the wind is blowing.

# 31
aggi
Posts: 4555
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1104 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:15 am

A large indicator will be how long a delay she asks the EU for. If it's a short one then I'd say the intention is to push her WA through (with the alternative a threat of No Deal). If it's a longer delay (with a break if we agree a deal) then I may be a bit more inclined to believe that today's statement was made in good faith.
This user liked this post: JohnMcGreal

# 32
nil_desperandum
Posts: 5333
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1280 times
Has Liked: 2348 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:22 am

One of the indicative votes will get a majority on Monday.
Bingo - both May and Corbyn can say it wasn't their deal... and on and on we go with the blame game.

# 33
SmudgetheClaret
Posts: 808
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:39 pm
Been Liked: 170 times
Has Liked: 95 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:44 am

Doncaster would vote in the Brexit party with UKIP 2nd if a GE was held tomorrow this is no surprise big changes ahead ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.donc ... 684568/amp

# 34
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:46 am

The Doncaster Free Press?

****, let lab and the tories know, they have to have the most suicidal damaging Brexit possible or else!

# 35
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:50 am

As I said a few days ago I can live with a CU at least for now. If this strays into SM no. In particular any referendum is a step too far and just continues the uncertainty. I still want a free trade deal and support any option that does not rule this out.

What is the point in leaving a little bit? As I have argued before I would rather remain for now than do that. We should not give up our hard won rebates and exemptions without getting the benefits of leaving.

# 36
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:51 am

No offence, but you should have thought about that in 2016.


EDIT - apologies for being a bit harsh, but that was the reality just as much in 2016 as it is now. And be inexplicably ruling out a 2nd ref, you are not even giving yourself a chance for us to get back to the good deal we have.
These 3 users liked this post: longsidepies martin_p JohnMcGreal

# 37
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:00 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Doncaster would vote in the Brexit party with UKIP 2nd if a GE was held tomorrow this is no surprise big changes ahead ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.donc ... 684568/amp


Can't rely in any way on this type of poll as no science whatsover. However I would not be surprised if it is typical of what people really think.

If tge new brexit party gets going it will take the Tories full circle as UKIP is replaced and takes many votes off them and some off Labour.

# 38
martin_p
Posts: 4961
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1688 times
Has Liked: 410 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby martin_p » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:03 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Doncaster would vote in the Brexit party with UKIP 2nd if a GE was held tomorrow this is no surprise big changes ahead ...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.donc ... 684568/amp


UKIP are a distant third, at least report the poll correctly. But you can’t really place too much importance on a poll by a free newspaper, I suspect they won’t have applied the proper controls and weighting, etc.

# 39
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:03 am

summitclaret wrote:Can't rely in any way on this type of poll as no science whatsover. However I would not be surprised if it is typical of what people really think.

If tge new brexit party gets going it will take the Tories full circle as UKIP is replaced and takes many votes off them and some off Labour.


It all depends on whether *some votes* is enough for a seat to change hands. Not to a Brexit Party or UKIP, that is fantasy la la land, but the to either Lab or Lid Dems.

If it is (and only a GE will decide that), then the Conservatives might go that way, but they then lose the more moderate middle.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not a Conservative Party strategist, as whichever way they go they lose.

# 40
claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 954 times
Has Liked: 28 times

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:04 am

If you wanted any further proof that the tory party is f**ked what better example than to spend a full day talking between yourselves and the end result is to ask a c**t like corbyn for help.

# 41
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:06 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No offence, but you should have thought about that in 2016.


EDIT - apologies for being a bit harsh, but that was the reality just as much in 2016 as it is now. And be inexplicably ruling out a 2nd ref, you are not even giving yourself a chance for us to get back to the good deal we have.


Apology accepted and appreciated. However in 2016 I voted for control of our money, laws, borders and trade policy as I believe most other leave voters did. I was in line with 2/3rds of Burnley, all of Lancashire and virtually all of the North and Midlands apart from Manchester and Liverpool.

# 42
ClaretAndJew
Posts: 6075
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 am
Been Liked: 2056 times
Has Liked: 447 times
Location: Earth

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:08 am

summitclaret wrote:Apology accepted and appreciated. However in 2016 I voted for control of our money, laws, borders and trade policy as I believe most other leave voters did. I was in line with 2/3rds of Burnley, all of Lancashire and virtually all of the North and Midlands apart from Manchester and Liverpool.


Which laws?

# 43
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:09 am

summitclaret wrote:Apology accepted and appreciated. However in 2016 I voted for control of our money, laws, borders and trade policy as I believe most other leave voters did. I was in line with 2/3rds of Burnley, all of Lancashire and virtually all of the North and Midlands apart from Manchester and Liverpool.


And don't we know it!

But you were told in 2016 by people like me that wasn't possible.

You were told by people who are still telling you that its possible, despite it being really obvious that most definately is not.

You've been played mate, all of you and we are all paying the price.

# 44
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:12 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It all depends on whether *some votes* is enough for a seat to change hands. Not to a Brexit Party or UKIP, that is fantasy la la land, but the to either Lab or Lid Dems.

If it is (and only a GE will decide that), then the Conservatives might go that way, but they then lose the more moderate middle.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not a Conservative Party strategist, as whichever way they go they lose.


The only way they just about away with it intact is to all back her current deal and hope enough Labour mps support that. However why would they when she has now given those Labour mps no reason to do so.

# 45
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:13 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:Which laws?


All of them.

# 46
ClaretAndJew
Posts: 6075
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:08 am
Been Liked: 2056 times
Has Liked: 447 times
Location: Earth

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby ClaretAndJew » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:15 am

summitclaret wrote:All of them.


Go on....

# 47
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:15 am

summitclaret wrote:The only way they just about away with it intact is to all back her current deal and hope enough Labour mps support that. However why would they when she has now given those Labour mps no reason to do so.


It can't be her deal though, it has to be her deal plus something Lab want.

So that is customs union (not ideal, but again, nothing is) or a confirmatory ref.

May would get those through I think, but her government is only surviving because no one wants to be seen to own this **** show.

And herein lies the danger, do Lab or May care enough about the country more than they do about short term electoral advantages?

I've no faith in either to be perfectly honest.

# 48
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And don't we know it!

But you were told in 2016 by people like me that wasn't possible.

You were told by people who are still telling you that its possible, despite it being really obvious that most definately is not.

You've been played mate, all of you and we are all paying the price.


Don't agree. May never believed in Brexit. Always said that see kept quite in the referendum campaign as a bit of insurance for Cameron and Osbourne. The minute she agreed to separate leaving from trade discussions and give up our main hand of our money she ensured that we werw goosed. Ditto the backdrop.

# 49
Lancasterclaret
Posts: 15587
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 5012 times
Has Liked: 2826 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:22 am

summitclaret wrote:Don't agree. May never believed in Brexit. Always said that see kept quite in the referendum campaign as a bit of insurance for Cameron and Osbourne. The minute she agreed to separate leaving from trade discussions and give up our main hand of our money she ensured that we werw goosed. Ditto the backdrop.


Then you need to be looking at news articles that tell you what the problems are and what is and isn't possible ,rather than ones that tell you the problem is May.

Don't get me wrong, her red lines have been a disaster, but not as much as the belief that we can have our cake and eat it. Which is what was promised to you (and you clearly still believe) in 2016.

Until people accept that they were lied to, and that is not possible, then we are going nowhere.

# 50
summitclaret
Posts: 2367
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 446 times
Has Liked: 709 times
Location: burnley

Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby summitclaret » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:31 am

Any referendum based on a soft Brexit v remain would be totally unfair. The only question that csn be asked with remain on the ballot is leave or remain, with a question on how we leave if that wins. I modified my previous approach to thd latter now to have a heirarcy of (wording would need to be in plain english and make clear what it means re things like FOM)

Managed no deal if we can't agree one with the EU

canada type freetrade deal
CU
Cu and SM


Return to “The Bee Hole End”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 80 guests