Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Jakubclaret]

I think people just want to leave & aren't really ar**d if it's a no deal, apart from the wealthy/middle class who might be worse off, by a country mile the working class people i reckon just want to see the back end of the EU & all the sh**e it's brought.

[TheFamilyCat]

I think people just want to leave & aren't really ar**d if it's a no deal, apart from the wealthy/middle class who might be worse off, by a country mile the working class people i reckon just want to see the back end of the EU & all the sh**e it's brought.

Can you be more specific about the “sh**e” it’s brought?

[Lancasterclaret]

His passport is no longer blue is about it I reckon.

[Jakubclaret]

Can you be more specific about the “sh**e” it’s brought?

Busy right now, I'll compose a more comprehensive post answering this in due course.

[aggi]

I assume this is the source data although not quite sure how it ties up:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... Brexit.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

apple.jpg (42.31 KiB) Viewed 1661 times

Only the Midlands/Wales where No Deal is the majority option.

[TonbridgeClaret]

I assume this is the source data although not quite sure how it ties up:

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... Brexit.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

apple.jpg

Only the Midlands/Wales where No Deal is the majority option.

Sorry Aggi, I must be reading it wrong. As far as I can see, London is the only region where No Deal isn’t the majority option.

[TonbridgeClaret]

Sorry, London and Scotland.

[aggi]

Sorry Aggi, I must be reading it wrong. As far as I can see, London is the only region where No Deal isn’t the majority option.

I didn't explain that well. I meant No Deal being the outright majority against Revoke/Extend. (I was assuming that those who want an extension/revoke probably don't want No Deal).

[nil_desperandum]

I didn't explain that well. I meant No Deal being the outright majority against Revoke/Extend. (I was assuming that those who want an extension/revoke probably don't want No Deal).

You explained it perfectly well. To have a majority it needs to be + 50%.

[Jakubclaret]

I didn't explain that well. I meant No Deal being the outright majority against Revoke/Extend. (I was assuming that those who want an extension/revoke probably don't want No Deal).

That's the preferred option as the realisation as struck home a no deal is extremely unlikely anyway, so make do with that or remain, its past the point of people wanting certain things it looks like we will end up with something we didn't vote for nor want, hallelujah democracy. People will always go automatically for the next best thing it's a natural instinct.

[Mala591]

Hmmm.

We end up staying in the EU customs union
We end up 'closely aligned' to the EU single market

We end up paying £39 billion for an independent immigration policy

Value for money?

[keith1879]

That's the preferred option as the realisation as struck home a no deal is extremely unlikely anyway, so make do with that or remain, its past the point of people wanting certain things it looks like we will end up with something we didn't vote for nor want, hallelujah democracy. People will always go automatically for the next best thing it's a natural instinct.

The question that appeared on ballot papers in the referendum under the Act was:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

So long as we leave then you have got exactly what you voted for.

[Jakubclaret]

The question that appeared on ballot papers in the referendum under the Act was:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

So long as we leave then you have got exactly what you voted for.

Leave is leave, you are packing the bags & everything, a complete severance, no stone unturned, that's what some of us voted for & expected to happen, have some of us been lied to i don't think so, it's possible to implement on a democratic basis.(replaced some with a we before combatclaret turns up)

[nil_desperandum]

Leave is leave, you are packing the bags & everything, a complete severance, no stone unturned, :

So no trade, no travel arrangements, no flights, no drugs from the EU, no anything? Effectively closed borders?
I don't think anyone voted for that - probably not even you, but that's what you've just written.
And to retain any of the above you have to "deal" with the EU. Once you've burnt all your bridges it's much more difficult to rebuild them, and if we do then want to make an FT agreement with them in the future then it would be a lot more difficult than making one now.

[CombatClaret]

Facebook Brexit ads secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby firm
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rosby-firm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK’s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May’s deal...

Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be “mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers”, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

More social media shadowplay for the leave side.

ads.jpg (252.4 KiB) Viewed 1550 times

[dsr]

So no trade, no travel arrangements, no flights, no drugs from the EU, no anything? Effectively closed borders?
I don't think anyone voted for that - probably not even you, but that's what you've just written.
And to retain any of the above you have to "deal" with the EU. Once you've burnt all your bridges it's much more difficult to rebuild them, and if we do then want to make an FT agreement with them in the future then it would be a lot more difficult than making one now.

That's not what "Leave" means.

As a 'for example', look at the USA. You surely wouldn't in any way say that they are part of the EU. And yet they trade with the EU, they fly from and to the EU, they gets drugs from the EU, their borders are not closed.

[Cryssys]

Leave is leave, you are packing the bags & everything, a complete severance, no stone unturned, that's what some of us voted for & expected to happen, :

And there's the rub. Thats what some leavers voted for, not all. It's been said many times, people had different reasons for voting leave and I suspect that you, like the ERG, are unrepresentative of what many leavers expected/wanted. The May deal means that we leave the EU.

It's a compromise, if you expected it to be anything else then you're delusional.

[nil_desperandum]

That's not what "Leave" means.

As a 'for example', look at the USA. You surely wouldn't in any way say that they are part of the EU. And yet they trade with the EU, they fly from and to the EU, they gets drugs from the EU, their borders are not closed.

I didn't say it was, as you know. I was replying to Jakub's vision of leaving:

"you are packing the bags & everything, a complete severance"

and amongst other things

"no stone unturned"

.
You don't want that, bu this is what we mean when we say that "leavers" all want different things.

[Jakubclaret]

And there's the rub. Thats what some leavers voted for, not all. It's been said many times, people had different reasons for voting leave and I suspect that you, like the ERG, are unrepresentative of what many leavers expected/wanted. The May deal means that we leave the EU.

It's a compromise, if you expected it to be anything else then you're delusional.

But is it? Why all the infighting & politicians resigning, the reason for the resignations (some) the inability to look the leave voters directly in the eye. We (some) are getting fobbed off & we (some) know it & that's the reason we (some) will eventually settle for a joke brexit. I could say more we (some) all could but this that & the other its all old ground, anyway I'm off to McDonald's now as something is on the menu i might be interested in (not subject to availability) but it's not there so i will try another burger joint.

[Cryssys]

What do you think would happen if the May deal was put to a referendum with no deal as the only other option? I suspect that it would win by a significant majority.

In the context of Brexit, the ERG and DUP are extremists and cannot claim to represent the views of the general public. No wonder TM has decided to ditch them and seek cross party support. Not before time either.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Good to see no flights being touted again, just need the no electricity too now

[Cryssys]

But is it? Why all the infighting & politicians resigning, the reason for the resignations (some) the inability to look the leave voters directly in the eye. We (some) are getting fobbed off & we (some) know it & that's the reason we (some) will eventually settle for a joke brexit.

Politicians, like the public, are divided on what Brexit means. They're also split on party lines which means that trying to reach an agreement that MP's could support was going to be nigh on impossible. The only way forward was to compromise, unfortunately there are some who don't seem to realise this and keep banging on about what they want rather than what's realistic and achievable.

[dsr]

What do you think would happen if the May deal was put to a referendum with no deal as the only other option? I suspect that it would win by a significant majority.

I suspect May's deal would lose. If you offer the public two more years like we have just had, or a clean break and get it over with, the public would vote out IMO.

There are obviously people who love and admire the EU so much that they will vote any way they can to keep the relationship we have now; but the lovers of the EU must surely be getting fewer and fewer. The main reason now to stay in the EU is out of fear, not love. And May demonstrated in the last general election that fear is not necessarily a vote-winner.

[aggi]

I suspect May's deal would lose. If you offer the public two more years like we have just had, or a clean break and get it over with, the public would vote out IMO.

Would you then be planning to trade with the EU on WTO terms indefinitely?

[Jakubclaret]

Politicians, like the public, are divided on what Brexit means. They're also split on party lines which means that trying to reach an agreement that MP's could support was going to be nigh on impossible. The only way forward was to compromise, unfortunately there are some who don't seem to realise this and keep banging on about what they want rather than what's realistic and achievable.

It's a simple case of just enacting a decision the majority asked for, don't want to be arrogant over winning & losing , if i placed a bet with a bookmakers & I'd got say 20 results right & won the accumulator & another punter had got 19 results right but unfortunately lost out on the accumulator, i don't think the bookmaker or me or the losing punter would be expecting to share the prize or any sort of compromise, that's life.

[dsr]

Would you then be planning to trade with the EU on WTO terms indefinitely?

No. I would be planning to trade on free trade terms with the EU as soon as the EU was prepared to trade on free trade terms with the UK. At present, the EU will only trade on free trade terms if the deal is skewed heavily in their favour. If they want to trade on equal terms, that would be a good thing for us all.

[evensteadiereddie]

You won, Jakub, we're leaving - sometime, somehow. Maybe you're not completely happy. So what ?
Democracy worked. Get over it.

[Cryssys]

I suspect May's deal would lose. If you offer the public two more years like we have just had, or a clean break and get it over with, the public would vote out IMO.

Have to disagree, accepting the deal means we could draw a line under the past two years and move on. I think that the public is sick and tired of the Brexit wrangling and would vote to accept the May deal because they have had enough and are fed up. It may not be a good reason for doing so but that's public opinion for you.

I think what you fail to realise is that your views, just like those of the ERG and DUP, are not representative. In many respects you're a Brexit militant/activist and out of touch with public opinion.

[evensteadiereddie]

Careful, Tommy and the lads will be round if you start picking on Jakub and Co.

[Lancasterclaret]

No. I would be planning to trade on free trade terms with the EU as soon as the EU was prepared to trade on free trade terms with the UK. At present, the EU will only trade on free trade terms if the deal is skewed heavily in their favour. If they want to trade on equal terms, that would be a good thing for us all.

Then you have to pass the withdrawal agreement.

You are a proper full on unicornist if you think this is going any other way than that.

[dsr]

Have to disagree, accepting the deal means we could draw a line under the past two years and move on. I think that the public is sick and tired of the Brexit wrangling and would vote to accept the May deal because they have had enough and are fed up. It may not be a good reason for doing so but that's public opinion for you.

I think what you fail to realise is that your views, just like those of the ERG and DUP, are not representative. In many respects you're a Brexit militant/activist and out of touch with public opinion.

As for the results, we won't know unless and until it happens. But as for drawing a line under the past two years, I don't see it. The past two+ years have been all about trying and failing to negotiate a deal for leaving. May's deal then leaves us with a temporary deal and a target of sorting it out finally, in another two years or a bit less. The negotiations will continue with a new deadline.

[Pstotto]

1933 in Germany was the democratic process yah...

[evensteadiereddie]

Can't see May invading Poland for the forseeable - the silly cow would probably mix it up with Portugal.

[Lowbankclaret]

Not according to some lawyers who were asked about it, and others interviewed on TV and Radio.
I posted a link a few pages back. Can't be bothered to keep going back over old ground, but you'll find it if you're interested.

I watched a ruling in the EU parliament and they were absolutely clear, it’s EU law, if we are in after the 22nd we have to contest the elections.

I will take that ruling as true.

[nil_desperandum]

I watched a ruling in the EU parliament and they were absolutely clear, it’s EU law, if we are in after the 22nd we have to contest the elections.

I will take that ruling as true.

Yes, I think that things have moved on to this position now, but it was being "challenged" / questioned due to some legal loopholes.

[Cryssys]

As for the results, we won't know unless and until it happens. But as for drawing a line under the past two years, I don't see it. The past two+ years have been all about trying and failing to negotiate a deal for leaving. May's deal then leaves us with a temporary deal and a target of sorting it out finally, in another two years or a bit less. The negotiations will continue with a new deadline.

Sorry, but I have to disagree again. Mays deal offers us out of the EU, to that extent we will have cleared the first hurdle and moved on and I think that's what most people want; progress. Sure we still have to negotiate the future relationship so don't worry, there will still be plenty to argue about.

I appreciate that you are passionate about your version of Brexit but many people don't share your vision or commitment. The May deal satisfies many of the things that leavers wanted and for that reason I believe it would be accepted.

[Colburn_Claret]

So no trade, no travel arrangements, no flights, no drugs from the EU, no anything? Effectively closed borders?
I don't think anyone voted for that - probably not even you, but that's what you've just written.
And to retain any of the above you have to "deal" with the EU. Once you've burnt all your bridges it's much more difficult to rebuild them, and if we do then want to make an FT agreement with them in the future then it would be a lot more difficult than making one now.

Why do you talk like that, what's it serve apart from bullshitting people, we get enough of that from politicians.
I voted leave, I still would, I think we are now better off leaving with no deal. If I'm lucky and I get my way guess what.
We will still trade with Europe.
We will still travel to Europe.
We will still get drugs from Europe.
There will be no closed borders.
If you think anything else you really have been brainwashed.

[nil_desperandum]

Why do you talk like that, what's it serve apart from bullshitting people, we get enough of that from politicians.
I voted leave, I still would, I think we are now better off leaving with no deal. If I'm lucky and I get my way guess what.
We will still trade with Europe.
We will still travel to Europe.
We will still get drugs from Europe.
There will be no closed borders.
If you think anything else you really have been brainwashed.

If you'd actualy followed the thread you'd know why. It was in response to Jakub who amongst other things said, "you are packing the bags & everything", "TOTAL severance", "no stone unturned".
I was challenging HIS view of brexit not yours, or for that matter that of any sane brexiteer.
We won't have ANY of the above under Jakub's withdrawal terms.
I happen to generally agree with your point, so maybe you should turn your fire in the opposite direction?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

NO DEAL RULED OUT BY A MAJORITY OF 5!

[Colburn_Claret]

I suspect May's deal would lose. If you offer the public two more years like we have just had, or a clean break and get it over with, the public would vote out IMO.

There are obviously people who love and admire the EU so much that they will vote any way they can to keep the relationship we have now; but the lovers of the EU must surely be getting fewer and fewer. The main reason now to stay in the EU is out of fear, not love. And May demonstrated in the last general election that fear is not necessarily a vote-winner.

I also think the demand for Brexit will rise.
Look who keep arguing to stay in the EU, a bunch of politicians that have lied to the public so much and so often, that they have lost all credibility.
Those voters who have feared the worse, have had those fears washed away waiting for the prophesies of doom to materialise. They clearly haven't. They are also wise enough to know that this constant delay is doing more damage to the country than leaving without a deal would.
The longer it takes the greater support Brexit will get. The EU could have stepped in anytime over the last 3 months, and tried to create a new deal that was acceptable to parliament, but they'd rather we continue infighting in the hope we will change our minds.

[summitclaret]

NO DEAL RULED OUT BY A MAJORITY OF 5!

Not yet. That was the second reading. About an hour after the first. They are now doing the committee stage amendments in an hour. Some papers not printed correct and the deputy speaker is out of his depth.

It's a farce and about the biggest decision since ww2. Yes Minster was not this funny.

Put the HOC channel on until the city game starts

[Colburn_Claret]

Politicians, like the public, are divided on what Brexit means. They're also split on party lines which means that trying to reach an agreement that MP's could support was going to be nigh on impossible. The only way forward was to compromise, unfortunately there are some who don't seem to realise this and keep banging on about what they want rather than what's realistic and achievable.

Compromise on what though. We voted to leave, but some of the compromises being touted conflict with that vote, and would I fact mean remaining in the EU, but with even less rights than we had before the referendum. THAT, isn't compromise its betrayal.
Thete are many issues that we could come to terms over, trade tariffs, border controls, shared security etc, but leaving the CU and being free of ECJ aren't, and cant, be on the table.

[Lancasterclaret]

I also think the demand for Brexit will rise.
Look who keep arguing to stay in the EU, a bunch of politicians that have lied to the public so much and so often, that they have lost all credibility.
Those voters who have feared the worse, have had those fears washed away waiting for the prophesies of doom to materialise. They clearly haven't. They are also wise enough to know that this constant delay is doing more damage to the country than leaving without a deal would.
The longer it takes the greater support Brexit will get. The EU could have stepped in anytime over the last 3 months, and tried to create a new deal that was acceptable to parliament, but they'd rather we continue infighting in the hope we will change our minds.

Thats certainly a point of view I'd have if I didn't want to listen to stuff that challenges my view of the world that is for sure.

[aggi]

No. I would be planning to trade on free trade terms with the EU as soon as the EU was prepared to trade on free trade terms with the UK. At present, the EU will only trade on free trade terms if the deal is skewed heavily in their favour. If they want to trade on equal terms, that would be a good thing for us all.

So you're just kicking the negotiations down the road and we'll be suffering disruption prior to that as well.

Leaving with no trade deals isn't doing to result in everything magically going smoothly.

[Colburn_Claret]

If you'd actualy followed the thread you'd know why. It was in response to Jakub who amongst other things said, "you are packing the bags & everything", "TOTAL severance", "no stone unturned".
I was challenging HIS view of brexit not yours, or for that matter that of any sane brexiteer.
We won't have ANY of the above under Jakub's withdrawal terms.
I happen to generally agree with your point, so maybe you should turn your fire in the opposite direction?

I picked it up after the message I replied to Nil, my apologies if I misinterpreted you.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

The longer it takes the greater support Brexit will get.

Wrong, the longer it takes the less support Brexit gets due to older voters dying and being replaced by younger voters.

Brexit itself, in any form resembling what Leave voters believe it should be, died weeks ago.

[summitclaret]

Can now see why may sucked corbyn in. She convinced enough mps to put an end to the Leftwing indicative votes and is now back in control of the motions. Those can have amendments though.

She will put a soft brexit against her not as soft brexit when her and Corbyn don't agree. Thereby blaming Labour and the ERG if nothing gets through.

[summitclaret]

Wrong, the longer it takes the less support Brexit gets due to older voters dying and being replaced by younger voters.

Brexit itself, in any form resembling what Leave voters believe it should be, died weeks ago.

I have changed my will they will have to vote leave to get my house

[Colburn_Claret]

Wrong, the longer it takes the less support Brexit gets due to older voters dying and being replaced by younger voters.

Brexit itself, in any form resembling what Leave voters believe it should be, died weeks ago.

But those young are getting older, and as they get older they'll get wiser. I said to my brother when he referred to the young, that if they beheld the referendum in 30 years time, most of those young would appreciate what they are doing a lot more.
They are young, idealistic, and in some ways naive. Most of us were when we were young.
The form of Brexit is dying, due to.....well we all know whose fault it is.

[Jakubclaret]

The older people can't be brainwashed, it's already been experienced in the younger youth, mistakes made & lessons learnt.