Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

Just take the ****.

Thats all I do now.

[SmudgetheClaret]

So let’s get this right a very important law which would normally take 2 weeks to debate was rushed through and won by one vote last night WTF is going on even the most hardened remainers must say that’s just not right ..

[JohnMcGreal]

I've been arguing the case that the longer it drags on, the greater the support for a No Deal Brexit would be.
People are sick to the back teeth of Politicians screwing the job up. The only problem is the bastards in the HOC, are so isolated from public opinion that it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference to the shower of ****.

So we've left with no deal, and we’re back at the negotiating table a few weeks later, desperate for some sort of urgent arrangements to put a stop to the chaos back home.

What should we do when the EU demand that the backstop, the financial settlement and citizens’ rights are all sorted out before they even consider talking about anything else?

[aggi]

I'm a little surprised that someone who was elected as the candidate of Labour and sacked could carry on.

Then again nothing should surprise me with this shower we have at the moment.

A party leader (or anyone else) being able to sack an MP would be a terrible idea. Being able to remove an elected MP because they disagreed with them is a real democratic risk.

The procedure is that it requires 10% of her electorate to want to remove her and this is in the works at the moment.

[Darthlaw]

Whataboutery or holding up a mirror as Wrongo gnashes his teeth at the idea of a politician saying one thing but doing another?

Whataboutery. Definitely Whataboutery.

Had you acknowledged that Cooper had indeed lied and specifically sought to enact legislation which was contrary to her original statement, however other politicians had changed position, then I'd have said the mirror.

I do appreciate that some remain posters on this board's MO is to never be in the wrong, though.

[martin_p]

I have nothing against anyone coming here to WORK. I have nothing against those workers staying, and making Britain their home, if that's what they want. Under the present open borders we are a target for foreign criminals, and dole warriors. Sad but true.

Demonstrably untrue in fact.I can't believe people are stillpeddling the same lies! EU workers have to have a job or some other means of sustaining themselves within three months of arriving under EU law. The fact we choose not to follow that isn't really the fault of the EU is it.

[aggi]

A lot of that narrative is whipped up by remainers, claiming what Leavers intentions are. It's been spin doctored to death.

Controlling your borders, and having the authority to decide who is and who isn't welcome into your country, is a million miles away from keeping out foreigners. We have always needed continental workers, and post Brexit, we still will. I have nothing against anyone coming here to WORK. I have nothing against those workers staying, and making Britain their home, if that's what they want. Under the present open borders we are a target for foreign criminals, and dole warriors. Sad but true.
a No Deal won't isolate us from our neighbours, thats impossible. Trading will carry on as before. The only thing that will change is the paperwork required, and the tariffs involved, but trading will continue. Nobody has an issue with being aligned with Europe, just some of us object to the EU passing our laws for us.

It doesn't take much spin doctoring when the campaign included things like.





and countless others.

I have nothing against anyone coming here to WORK. I have nothing against those workers staying, and making Britain their home, if that's what they want. Under the present open borders we are a target for foreign criminals, and dole warriors. Sad but true.

So what you're saying is that you disagree with the UK government policy of not enforcing the rules on EU immigrants having to be able to support themselves after they move here. Blaming the EU for a UK government failing seems a bit confused.

Personally I'd say a No Deal would isolate us. Trade will carry on but it clearly won't carry on as before otherwise why would all of this be such a big issue? Which EU laws that the UK has opposed are you opposed to?

[Right_winger]

Democracy in this country ceases to exist any longer. People ( majority of 1.4 m ) vote for something and the whole establishment work against the wishes of a democratic vote. It’s as simple as that.

[thatdberight]

Got no response when I posted yesterday, just fingers in ears.

Perhaps because people read the (hidden away in paragraph 157) claim (which The Grauniad didn't rebut);
"...remain campaigners “are using similar tactics and spending more” without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the £370,000 expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People’s Vote campaign and the £300,000 spent by Best for Britain."

Perhaps people then just wrote it off as one-sided reportage from a predictable source.

[martin_p]

Whataboutery. Definitely Whataboutery.

Had you acknowledged that Cooper had indeed lied and specifically sought to enact legislation which was contrary to her original statement, however other politicians had changed position, then I'd have said the mirror.

I do appreciate that some remain posters on this board's MO is to never be in the wrong, though.

If you hadn't said Cooper 'lied' and other politicians 'changed position' you might have had a point.

[aggi]

Every region of England and Wales happy to leave the EU without a deal - except London


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... mediately/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most people in England would prefer a no-deal Brexit to remaining in the EU, according to a people-rather-no-deal-remain-according-new-poll

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/people-r ... l-9105738/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Aggi, has the disconnect between millions of The People and MP's that lead to the referendum result , been made better or worse following actions of Parliamentarians?

Will the mistrust have decreased or intensified?

You can quote it again but it doesn't make it truer.

I'd say the disconnect has got worse. They've made such a terrible job of it that they've managed to alienate nearly all of the voters. May pandering to the ERG and pushing for a hard brexit upset half of the people to start with and then realising that wouldn't work and MPS scrambling around and going the other way to try and fix it has upset the other half.

A sensible cross-party approach taking into account that Leave had won but it was a close run thing and you also had to consider the other half of the vote may have resulted in a sensible leave option that would have satisfied both leave and remain (obviously you'd get those on either side who'd never be happy) and allowed us to leave gracefully.

Instead May focused more on placating the hardliners in her own party and ended up with a terrible plan that no-one liked.

[RingoMcCartney]

A party leader (or anyone else) being able to sack an MP would be a terrible idea. Being able to remove an elected MP because they disagreed with them is a real democratic risk.

The procedure is that it requires 10% of her electorate to want to remove her and this is in the works at the moment.

Every region of England and Wales happy to leave the EU without a deal - except London[/b]


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... mediately/

Most people in England would prefer a no-deal Brexit to remaining in the EU, according to a people-rather-no-deal-remain-according-new-poll

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/people-r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-9105738/


Aggi, has the disconnect between millions of The People and MP's that lead to the referendum result , been made better or worse following actions of Parliamentarians?

Will the mistrust have decreased or intensified?

[Lancasterclaret]

Do Scotland and Northern Ireland not count in this survey or something?

[CombatClaret]

Whataboutery. Definitely Whataboutery.

Had you acknowledged that Cooper had indeed lied and specifically sought to enact legislation which was contrary to her original statement, however other politicians had changed position, then I'd have said the mirror.

Sorry I didn't clearly state it, my inference was "There are a lot more lies out there, ones that got us into this mess in the first place".

[Darthlaw]

If you hadn't said Cooper 'lied' and other politicians 'changed position' you might have had a point.

At least you've made my point about certain posters never being wrong.

[Lancasterclaret]

At least you've made my point about certain posters never being wrong.

I don't tend to be!

Course, you could be talking about someone else, but my ego just won't accept that.

[CombatClaret]

Democracy in this country ceases to exist any longer. People ( majority of 1.4 m ) vote for something and the whole establishment work against the wishes of a democratic vote. It’s as simple as that.

It worked in Ireland when they decided what they were going to do beforehand.

If you put something odd down the toilet and it breaks don't blame the toilet.

[dsr]

A sensible cross-party approach taking into account that Leave had won but it was a close run thing and you also had to consider the other half of the vote may have resulted in a sensible leave option that would have satisfied both leave and remain (obviously you'd get those on either side who'd never be happy) and allowed us to leave gracefully.

Instead May focused more on placating the hardliners in her own party and ended up with a terrible plan that no-one liked.

If that was the attitude of the country as a whole, then there need not have been a referendum at all. It was always going to be close, so they could have just said that we would negotiate a position that's either out of the EU but pretty close to being in, or in the EU but pretty close to being out, and it wouldn't have made much difference which side won.

I presume it is your contention that 52-48 in favour of Remain should have had pretty much the same effect? Because some of the people who propound this (noit necessarily you) seem to think that a close vote for Leave would mean we split the difference, but a close vote for Remain would mean full-on Remain with no concessions. This is obviously not consistent.

[martin_p]

If that was the attitude of the country as a whole, then there need not have been a referendum at all. It was always going to be close, so they could have just said that we would negotiate a position that's either out of the EU but pretty close to being in, or in the EU but pretty close to being out, and it wouldn't have made much difference which side won.

I presume it is your contention that 52-48 in favour of Remain should have had pretty much the same effect? Because some of the people who propound this (noit necessarily you) seem to think that a close vote for Leave would mean we split the difference, but a close vote for Remain would mean full-on Remain with no concessions. This is obviously not consistent.

We are already pretty much as close as it's possible to be to 'in the EU but pretty close to being out'.

[SmudgetheClaret]

It doesn't take much spin doctoring when the campaign included things like.





and countless others.

I have nothing against anyone coming here to WORK. I have nothing against those workers staying, and making Britain their home, if that's what they want. Under the present open borders we are a target for foreign criminals, and dole warriors. Sad but true.

So what you're saying is that you disagree with the UK government policy of not enforcing the rules on EU immigrants having to be able to support themselves after they move here. Blaming the EU for a UK government failing seems a bit confused.

Personally I'd say a No Deal would isolate us. Trade will carry on but it clearly won't carry on as before otherwise why would all of this be such a big issue? Which EU laws that the UK has opposed are you opposed to?

800k jobs will be lost,£4200 extra costs per family,economy of a cliff(i presume the same cliff as no deal) planes will stop flying blah blah blah
hasnt this stuff been done to death ? democracy is the most important thing here if you dont think so then thats upto you..

[aggi]

Every region of England and Wales happy to leave the EU without a deal - except London[/b]


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... mediately/

Most people in England would prefer a no-deal Brexit to remaining in the EU, according to a people-rather-no-deal-remain-according-new-poll

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/people-r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-9105738/


Aggi, has the disconnect between millions of The People and MP's that lead to the referendum result , been made better or worse following actions of Parliamentarians?

Will the mistrust have decreased or intensified?

I've already answered this. Asking it again isn't going to change anything.

[RingoMcCartney]

You can quote it again but it doesn't make it truer.

I'd say the disconnect has got worse.

So when those millions of disaffected voters either chose to no longer vote, or vote for what will inevitably labelled, by the pious , holier than thou, self - confirming, intellectual metropolitan bubble dwellers "populist".

They'll only have themselves to blame as they look on bewildered, at the dramatically altered political landscape.

Their splendid London-centric isolation will be complete....

[summitclaret]

Now the Campbell, Thornberry, Adonis lot are saying a referendum is needed because a soft brexit is not what people voted for in 2016. So they want a soft Brexit v remain and it to be a final say.

So how are people that still want proper brexit to vote ? It's utter bias ********. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Gets a none binding indicative motion asked now on whether MPs want a referendum. It won't pass. Ditto revoke. These need to be got through before the EU try to force these on us.

[RingoMcCartney]

800k jobs will be lost,£4200 extra costs per family,economy of a cliff(i presume the same cliff as no deal) planes will stop flying blah blah blah
hasnt this stuff been done to death ? democracy is the most important thing here if you dont think so then thats upto you..

You forgot the visa free travel myth

"BREXIT: EU PARLIAMENT VOTES TO GIVE UK CITIZENS VISA-FREE TRAVEL IN EVENT OF NO-DEAL"

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 54371.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Myth busted

And the City will be excluded if we have "no deal" myth

"The European Union’s markets watchdog has ruled out the need for measures to avoid potential disruption in certain cross-border derivatives contracts if Britain leaves the bloc this month without a deal."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-brita ... KKCN1QO1IO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Myth busted

Note. The planes won't fly. The end to visa free travel. The marginalising of the city of London were all previously EVIDENCE that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk.

Now they aren't going to happen they'll be rebranded by Remoaners as simply PREDICTIONS or FORECASTS as they desperately backtrack to avoid more blushes!

[aggi]

If that was the attitude of the country as a whole, then there need not have been a referendum at all. It was always going to be close, so they could have just said that we would negotiate a position that's either out of the EU but pretty close to being in, or in the EU but pretty close to being out, and it wouldn't have made much difference which side won.

I presume it is your contention that 52-48 in favour of Remain should have had pretty much the same effect? Because some of the people who propound this (noit necessarily you) seem to think that a close vote for Leave would mean we split the difference, but a close vote for Remain would mean full-on Remain with no concessions. This is obviously not consistent.

I'd say that if it was 52-48 the other way then that should certainly have lead to us considering our relationship with the EU.

For instance there clearly wouldn't be a mandate for closer integration through things like schengen, adopting the Euro, possible EU army, etc. There may also be consideration re: immigration, for instance enforcing the rules on immigrants being able to financially support themselves (even though it may cost money to do this).

[Colburn_Claret]

So we've left with no deal, and we’re back at the negotiating table a few weeks later, desperate for some sort of urgent arrangements to put a stop to the chaos back home.

What should we do when the EU demand that the backstop, the financial settlement and citizens’ rights are all sorted out before they even consider talking about anything else?

We tell them the back stop is their problem, we have no intention of building a wall between the Republic and the North of Ireland. Over to you.

There is no financial settlement. I've heard that we are already committed to some payments for the next year, after that they can get on with it. I'd also add that if they seriously want to undermine us then they can go whistle for the money.

TM has already stated that Citizens rights will not change for any EU nationals residing or working in the UK, I'm more than happy for that. What they decide about Brits living abroad is up to them, although I'm sure I read somewhere that they have said the same.

There is no desperation, because the fall back is the WTO, and we are happy to trade under that flag to start with.

The ONLY thing to talk about is the trade deal. Just bear in mind that the English economy is equivalent to the 19 smallest nations of the 27 added together. That, of Germanys trade, 15-18% is directly with the UK. People keep arguing that the power is all in Brussels hands, it isn't. We KNOW that the EU want to stick it to us, but they can't without damaging the economies of Europe, especially Germany. The Germans wouldn't stand for it.

[aggi]

So when those millions of disaffected voters either chose to no longer vote, or vote for what will inevitably labelled, by the pious , holier than thou, self - confirming, intellectual metropolitan bubble dwellers "populist".

They'll only have themselves to blame as they look on bewildered, at the dramatically altered political landscape.

Their splendid London-centric isolation will be complete....

I wouldn't fully agree. When people stop voting those people who didn't vote will only partly have themselves to blame for what happens next.

By the way, you do know that Scotland isn't in London don't you?

[aggi]

An interesting graphic on where votes went from the 2015 election to 2017.

[Murger]

Hahahahaha, Jesus wept!!

[RingoMcCartney]

I wouldn't fully agree. When people stop voting those people who didn't vote will only partly have themselves to blame for what happens next.

By the way, you do know that Scotland isn't in London don't you?

When I said "theyd only have themselves to blame" I wasn't referring to those who stopped voting I was referring to the ones who've encouraged and brought the inevitable event happening.

As for my understanding of geography. I do know that Scotland is in the UK it voted to remain part of. Not London.

Talking of the dwellers of the metropolitan London Borough of ivory towers.

Last week's New European newspaper was entirely the work of one man. Will Self. Yes the drug addled champagne socialist. From cover to cover! A whole edition written by arch Remoaner!!! Pages and pages of his inane, barely concealed hatred of those he considers as uneducated, pitch fork weilding bumpkins!!

An entire newspaper written by Wilf "Just how superior am I !?" Self

I bet that absolutely flew off the shelves of the newsagents on Parliament Street, Burnley Wood!!!!

If Carlsberg did self awareness lacking, echo chamber, Remoaner bubble dwelling!!!!.....

[Quickenthetempo]

Looks like people are challenging her right to vote as British prisoners are not allowed to vote by law.

The other thing is did she break her 7pm curfew to go to the vote?

[Devils_Advocate]

Talking of the dwellers of the metropolitan London Borough of ivory towers.

Last week's New European newspaper was entirely the work of one man. Will Self. Yes the drug addled champagne socialist. From cover to cover! A whole edition written by arch Remoaner!!! Pages and pages of his inane, barely concealed hatred of those he considers as uneducated, pitch fork weilding bumpkins!!

An entire newspaper written by Wilf "Just how superior am I !?" Self

I bet that absolutely flew off the shelves of the newsagents on Parliament Street, Burnley Wood!!!!

If Carlsberg did self awareness lacking, echo chamber, Remoaner bubble dwelling!!!!.....

This guys got you more rattled than even LC gets you on here. Go on be honest I bet Liz has a soft spot for him really and wouldn't mind a bit of Willy

[Lancasterclaret]

We tell them the back stop is their problem, we have no intention of building a wall between the Republic and the North of Ireland. Over to you.

There is no financial settlement. I've heard that we are already committed to some payments for the next year, after that they can get on with it. I'd also add that if they seriously want to undermine us then they can go whistle for the money.

TM has already stated that Citizens rights will not change for any EU nationals residing or working in the UK, I'm more than happy for that. What they decide about Brits living abroad is up to them, although I'm sure I read somewhere that they have said the same.

There is no desperation, because the fall back is the WTO, and we are happy to trade under that flag to start with.

The ONLY thing to talk about is the trade deal. Just bear in mind that the English economy is equivalent to the 19 smallest nations of the 27 added together. That, of Germanys trade, 15-18% is directly with the UK. People keep arguing that the power is all in Brussels hands, it isn't. We KNOW that the EU want to stick it to us, but they can't without damaging the economies of Europe, especially Germany. The Germans wouldn't stand for it.

Without signing the WA, we trade under WTO until the cows come home.

That won't be pretty.

[RingoMcCartney]

Would an MEP be able to do what duplicitous constituency betrayer , cooper has done?

[RingoMcCartney]

This guys got you more rattled than even LC gets you on here. Go on be honest I bet Liz has a soft spot for him really and wouldn't mind a bit of Willy

LC got me Rattled? Who was it that blocked me cos I Proved him wrong over EU money coming back to the UK !?

Rattled? Give over. It's comedy gold bordering on the cringe worthy.

Will Self. The poster boy for the dwellers of the metropolitan London Borough of ivory towers!

Was there a centre fold of the knackered old , " some of us are cleary more equal than others " smack head!!??

There's no point me going to get a copy from the Post office at the end of Dugdale road. They'll all have been bought. By ( insert message board Remoaner name here)



Who the hell is Liz?

[summitclaret]

DearTheresa these 25 Labour mps are the ultimate answer you need.

Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/labour-mps-w ... m-11684197" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SmudgetheClaret]

Nothing like a filibuster

[Colburn_Claret]

Without signing the WA, we trade under WTO until the cows come home.

That won't be pretty.

It might not be, but it certainly isn't the end of the world, and if it isn't pretty for us, it's no prettier for Europe. That is why a deal will be reached even if Brussels isn't happy about it. You always conveniently forget that if we trade under WTO with Europe, then they trade under WTO with us. It wont be pretty ooh.
You never take the time to explain why this is bad for Britain, BUT not bad for Europe.
Its quit pro quo and you're lying to yourself if you pretend otherwise.

[aggi]

When I said "theyd only have themselves to blame" I wasn't referring to those who stopped voting I was referring to the ones who've encouraged and brought the inevitable event happening.

As for my understanding of geography. I do know that Scotland is in the UK it voted to remain part of. Not London.

Talking of the dwellers of the metropolitan London Borough of ivory towers.

Last week's New European newspaper was entirely the work of one man. Will Self. Yes the drug addled champagne socialist. From cover to cover! A whole edition written by arch Remoaner!!! Pages and pages of his inane, barely concealed hatred of those he considers as uneducated, pitch fork weilding bumpkins!!

An entire newspaper written by Wilf "Just how superior am I !?" Self

I bet that absolutely flew off the shelves of the newsagents on Parliament Street, Burnley Wood!!!!

If Carlsberg did self awareness lacking, echo chamber, Remoaner bubble dwelling!!!!.....

I'm not really sure what your point is here. What inevitable event?

When I was in the Rifle Volunteer after the match on Saturday I did notice they had a few copies of the New European on the bar, that must have been who bought them all.

[dsr]

Without signing the WA, we trade under WTO until the cows come home.

That won't be pretty.

Without signing the WTO, we can sign a free trade agreement with the EU as soon as they decide they want one. You and I both want free trade for the UK, but until the EU wants it too, we won't get it except at nonsensical prices which you would want us to pay and I would not.

But if the EU gets past its "we must punish Britain because we don't want to lose power" attitude and gets towards a "we must do our best for our member states and free trade with the UK will be a good thing" attitude, then it shouldn't take long to do a deal - not when there is goodwill on both sides.

[Lancasterclaret]

It might not be, but it certainly isn't the end of the world, and if it isn't pretty for us, it's no prettier for Europe. That is why a deal will be reached even if Brussels isn't happy about it. You always conveniently forget that if we trade under WTO with Europe, then they trade under WTO with us. It wont be pretty ooh.
You never take the time to explain why this is bad for Britain, BUT not bad for Europe.
Its quit pro quo and you're lying to yourself if you pretend otherwise.

Weird how the experts think it's a really bad idea though.

Guess they must all be on this European gravy train we here so much about

[evensteadiereddie]

Meltdown imminent.

[Lancasterclaret]

Without signing the WTO, we can sign a free trade agreement with the EU as soon as they decide they want one. You and I both want free trade for the UK, but until the EU wants it too, we won't get it except at nonsensical prices which you would want us to pay and I would not.

But if the EU gets past its "we must punish Britain because we don't want to lose power" attitude and gets towards a "we must do our best for our member states and free trade with the UK will be a good thing" attitude, then it shouldn't take long to do a deal - not when there is goodwill on both sides.

Unicornism

[dsr]

Weird how the experts think it's a really bad idea though.

Guess they must all be on this European gravy train we here so much about

They told as that not joining the Euro would be a bad idea, and we didn't believe them.
They told us that crashing out of the ERM would be disastrous, and that time we did believe them.
So having believed them once out of two (and they've been wrong two out of two), which way do we go now?

PS - what do the European experts think? Do they think it will be bad for the EU, or are they sanguine like Tusk?

[dsr]

Unicornism

To quote Sybil Fawlty, "Pretentious? Moi?"

[Jakubclaret]

Can you be more specific about the “sh**e” it’s brought?

I could bore you silly with a long winded post but it's staring you & many others in the face, & the answers are within this thread, over 7000 posts 144 pages of people agreeing & disagreeing, the arguments can be solved overnight with leaving & prospering as an independent nation, nothing else until now as i can recall as completely divided society like this & it will continue. I'll happily provide links supporting the final point even balanced 1s which do support both sides but sway away after a complete analysis.

[CombatClaret]

It might not be, but it certainly isn't the end of the world, and if it isn't pretty for us, it's no prettier for Europe.

Look how the leave rhetoric has done a complete 180 from the pre-referendum vision of amazing deals, cake and eat it, hold all the cards, bright futures.

Now it's gotten to 'It won't be the end of the world' and 'it won't be pretty for us'

It was meant to be better.

[Lowbankclaret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feU7HT0 ... ture=share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A nice piece from Peter Zeihan on the future world order.

Well worth a watch for all sides of the Brexit argument.

Interesting is his prediction for the future of Germany. It’s in a graph after about 55 minutes.

[Lancasterclaret]

To quote Sybil Fawlty, "Pretentious? Moi?"

No, trying to do something else.

There isn't any trade deal without the WA.

[Lancasterclaret]

This guy knows his stuff

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... y-very-bad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;