Brexit: The Naked Truth

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# 1
SmudgetheClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:49 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:A brutally honest piece by Brexiter Peter Oborne, who now thinks we should halt the Brexit process to have a very serious think about things:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... ink-again/


If he was "Brutally honest" he would hold his hand up and admit he is now supporting the demolition of democracy in the UK just like many of the remainers coming up with alsorts of excuses for doing so, they should own it and save their rhetoric for when the political landscape massively changes into a form most lefties will feel is their worst nightmare...

# 2
Lord Beamish
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lord Beamish » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:07 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:If he was "Brutally honest" he would hold his hand up and admit he is now supporting the demolition of democracy in the UK just like many of the remainers coming up with alsorts of excuses for doing so, they should own it and save their rhetoric for when the political landscape massively changes into a form most lefties will feel is their worst nightmare...

You really are damaged goods, aren’t you, Smudge?
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aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:20 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:No and No.

As I said previously, you'll never admit that governments of all persuasions, have consistently over indulged London and the south east and neglected the rest of the country. The one consistent has been eu membership.

17.4 million voters agree with me that's it's been detrimental to the country. They had 40 odd years to decide that.

You'll glibly say they fell for lies on a bus.

Fine. I can live with that. And I'm done doing this particular argument that you and I have done to death.


Somewhere on this thread you'll find my thoughts on how the UK government needs to sort out wealth inequality with far more investment outside London so your first point clearly isn't true. It's got sod all to do with the EU though (other than the hope that the EU grants to places like the North West are replaced by Government grants which seems a little optimistic given how they've managed their "Northern Powerhouse" scheme).

Anyway, just to summarise your position:

The one and only constant in the UK for the past 40 years has been EU membership. It is the EU's fault that manufacturing jobs in the UK have declined.

Many other countries have coincidentally suffered declines in manufacturing jobs over the same time period but that has been for entirely different reasons.

(And something entirely unrelated about a bus, I think that's what people bring up when they want to deflect from how little sense their stance makes. Someone else did the same recently.)
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SmudgetheClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:41 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:You really are damaged goods, aren’t you, Smudge?


Maybe or maybe I just thought we lived a democratic country and feel bitterly disappointed that we DONT..
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RingoMcCartney
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:46 pm

aggi wrote:Somewhere on this thread you'll find my thoughts on how the UK government needs to sort out wealth inequality with far more investment outside London so your first point clearly isn't true. It's got sod all to do with the EU though (other than the hope that the EU grants to places like the North West are replaced by Government grants which seems a little optimistic given how they've managed their "Northern Powerhouse" scheme).

Anyway, just to summarise your position:

The one and only constant in the UK for the past 40 years has been EU membership. It is the EU's fault that manufacturing jobs in the UK have declined.

Many other countries have coincidentally suffered declines in manufacturing jobs over the same time period but that has been for entirely different reasons.

(And something entirely unrelated about a bus, I think that's what people bring up when they want to deflect from how little sense their stance makes. Someone else did the same recently.)


17.4 million voters agree with me that EU membership has been detrimental to the country. They had 40 odd years to decide that.

You'll glibly say they fell for lies on a bus.

Fine. I can live with that. And I'm done doing this particular argument that you and I have done to death.

Anyway, last year around september / October, I pointed out that Bercow had quietly announced, in March, that millions had been earmarked for EU parliamentary elections despite us leaving on the 29th March this year.

You dismissed my assertion that this was evidence that the establishment and political class wouldn't allow us to leave, as simply "contingency plans"

I've been proven right again haven't I.

We're going to participate in EU elections, just as I predicted back in September/ October.
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TheFamilyCat
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby TheFamilyCat » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:49 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:No, your 100% right.

The north west, North East, the west Country and the Midlands have boomed and had billions poured into them by successive governments. The infrastructure of these areas are world class. Millions of high class well paid jobs have been preserved and created. Zero hours contracts don't exist. Job security has never been higher for millions of workers. Meanwhile London has become a virtual derelict back water. . And thankfully all this has happened while we've been in the wonderful EU.

All those 17.4 million who wanted to end the status quo, were just geriatric old provincial nazis.

Thanks for the the belated enlightenment


And England haven’t won the World Cup while we’ve been in the EU. That’s why we voted to leave.

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AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:06 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I’m struggling to disagree with any of that, even in the interests of a good debate.

If people like me are agreeing with large chunks of that mindset, it is bound to happen because it means a majority of the country will support it.

The trick is to make it happen without the excesses of Marxism, without unduly punishing the rich (who will then find a way to stop it), and without throwing the baby out with the bath water (worsening everyone’s living standards to try to make it more equal).

I think that any left leaning party that has spent forty years on the sidelines and gets into government would be crazy (or really, just bereft of any kind of imagination) to introduce rigid centralised state control everywhere (if that's what you mean by the excesses of Marxism). State ownership won't mean "managed by the PMs office" - as there appears to be a recognition for the benefits of pluralism - and not just state or private, but using partnerships and cooperatives too. Rather than imposing economic plans, I can see the state working alongside business and publicly owned entities to create one together. The country will have goals - reducing carbon emissions for example - and the responsibility for achieving this will also fall on business, but with a recognised direction of travel, and the knowledge that government will lead the way through investment, I can't see how capital will shy away. And if the country puts a real effort into raising the living standards of the poorest, what business wouldn't be happy with another few million potential customers with more money in their pockets?

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CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:26 pm

Telegraph today.

Günter Verheugen, Germany’s veteran ex-commissioner.
He told ARD’s Anne Will show in Berlin that the EU’s negotiating team had made a strategic misjudgement, missed the larger issues at stake and should not try to dictate terms fundamentally unacceptable to London: “We’re not losing a member state, we’re losing the weight of 20 member states. We therefore have an interest that we remain the closest possible allies.”

Wow. Germany is fighting back against Brussels. He isn’t the only one saying this. Three German think tanks are too. The link is well worth reading for those who like common sense and geopolitics, not infantile Brussels tantrums.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/08/german-elite-call-radical-rethink-eus-brexit-strategy/
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby evensteadiereddie » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:27 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:17.4 million voters agree with me that EU membership has been detrimental to the country. They had 40 odd years to decide that.

You'll glibly say they fell for lies on a bus.

Fine. I can live with that. And I'm done doing this particular argument that you and I have done to death.

Anyway, last year around september / October, I pointed out that Bercow had quietly announced, in March, that millions had been earmarked for EU parliamentary elections despite us leaving on the 29th March this year.

You dismissed my assertion that this was evidence that the establishment and political class wouldn't allow us to leave, as simply "contingency plans"

I've been proven right again haven't I.

We're going to participate in EU elections, just as I predicted back in September/ October.



Really ? Why haven't you mentioned it before ? ;)

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Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Burnley Ace » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:31 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I asked you this question-

Did the vast majority of labour MPs vote to have an eu referendum? Yes Or No?

You answered - "No"

It's an historic fact that this happened on June 9th 2015

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33067157

"MPs have overwhelmingly backed plans for a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union. 

The VOTE , which followed the first debate on the EU Referendum Bill, means the legislation moves to the next stage of its progress through Parliament.

Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said a "generation" had been denied a say on the UK's place in Europe, and the public must now have the "final say".

MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the bill."

Why don't you have a little look in Hansard !  

You can huff and puff and stamp your feet. Trying to squirm around the facts. In fact the longer and more protracted you continue to have your tantrum the more satisfaction I get out of proving you wrong!

So drag it on as long as you like Burnley Not So Ace!

Reality and facts- 1. The gift that keeps on giving - 0 (again !)

Oh bless once again you flaunt your ignorance like a badge of honour! Haven’t you had enough of being shown up as an utter buffoon? You have even written the answer in your little rant - The VOTE , which followed the first debate on the EU Referendum Bill, means the legislation moves to the next stage of its progress through Parliament - it was a vote after the first debate you dullard!!! Labour MPs abstained on the vote to make the Bill an Act and that my little friend is a fact! It’s EVIDENCE:-)

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aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:32 pm

Daniel Kawczynski has left the ERG saying that there's a "Hardcore element of ‘Unicorn’ dreamers now actually endangering Brexit".

It's going to be ironic if those who most want Brexit end up being the ones who prevent it (which seems to be getting more and more likely).

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aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:35 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:17.4 million voters agree with me that EU membership has been detrimental to the country. They had 40 odd years to decide that.

You'll glibly say they fell for lies on a bus.

Fine. I can live with that. And I'm done doing this particular argument that you and I have done to death.

Anyway, last year around september / October, I pointed out that Bercow had quietly announced, in March, that millions had been earmarked for EU parliamentary elections despite us leaving on the 29th March this year.

You dismissed my assertion that this was evidence that the establishment and political class wouldn't allow us to leave, as simply "contingency plans"

I've been proven right again haven't I.

We're going to participate in EU elections, just as I predicted back in September/ October.


Weirdly bringing the bus up again.

It's strange how you keep mentioning these things where you claimed someone said something but can never actually find the posts where it happened. Just coincidence I guess.

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CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:05 am

Kawczynski. Interesting character. I trust Steve Baker far more than I trust him.

It’s a tough one. Germany bigwigs are saying that the major world powers like them would never accept being a supplicant, and thus nor should we (an equivalent nation in power and status).

On the other hand there are good arguments for taking her deal, however bad it is.

Glad it is not me deciding. Though how the public can be asked to decide as some advocate I will never know,

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Right_winger
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Right_winger » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:41 am

HOC stitch up in full action. Was always going to be the case unfortunately.

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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:23 am

aggi wrote:Daniel Kawczynski has left the ERG saying that there's a "Hardcore element of ‘Unicorn’ dreamers now actually endangering Brexit".

It's going to be ironic if those who most want Brexit end up being the ones who prevent it (which seems to be getting more and more likely).

If we get a Labour Party Brexit, which appears to be May's ambition this week, then we are in a Customs Union with no mechanism for getting out of it. The EU will have the rights to set our trade policy for ever, without having to consider what is best for our economy. And we will be technically out of the EU, so Remainers will be able to say Brexiters got their way, and they can then ensure that nothing so crass as a democratic vote should ever happen again.

Wheras if we don't leave at all, it will be clear that the Remainers are fundamentally opposed to democracy and the issue will not be over.

I hope we do have European elections. I'll be voting in them, even if I miss (or spoil my ballot paper) in the locals. I really don't want to throw out the sitting councillor, but then again, I really don't want to vote Conservative. The European elections would be a "free hit". No consequences to Tory or Labour supporters if our "own" party loses out, especially as both Tory and Labour are working hard to ensure the MEPs lose even the little relevance they have now.

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AndyClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndyClaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:52 am

aggi wrote:Daniel Kawczynski has left the ERG saying that there's a "Hardcore element of ‘Unicorn’ dreamers now actually endangering Brexit".

It's going to be ironic if those who most want Brexit end up being the ones who prevent it (which seems to be getting more and more likely).


If everyone in the ERG voted for the withdrawal agreement, it still wouldn't go through, it's just counting my friend.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:41 am

So the ‘Peoples’ Vote can be Mays deal or Remain
We’re not that thick
Or it can be Mays Deal No deal or Revoke
FPTP LMFTO
Or straight Leave or remain 2
if Leave wins then everyone votes again on soft or hard
Er No
A referendum with the same Parliament in place
NOT Happening..
I accept only a GE
You sneaky f*****s don’t honour Referendums
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aggi
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby aggi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:18 am

Some will be happy with this

https://borisforbritain.com

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nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:00 am

BleedingClaret wrote:I accept only a GE
You sneaky f*****s don’t honour Referendums

So can you predict with any degree of certainty how this would break the current Parliamentary deadlock.
No one really knows how an election using our current FPTP system would turn out, but I can make a few predictions
1. A Brexit Party would get quite a lot of votes but probably no seats.
2. Both the main parties would lose quite a lot of votes, but in most cases the current MP would be returned, or Labour might lose a few to Conservative and vice versa, thus resulting in the status quo.
3. The Conservatives would be bitterly divided over their manifesto position and would therefore fudge it thus allowing Steve Baker and Mark Francois to stand as candidates and say one thing about Europe and Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke to stand and say another. This is almost certainly the only thing they could do at this point unless they wanted to swing one way or another. In this event you'd have Conservatives fighting each other as Independents in many seats.
4. Conservatives would lose the gains they made in Scotland.
5. There would be a high turn out amongst the young and remainers, as it would be seen as their "People's Vote"

None of the above make a GE attractive to the Conservatives, so it won't be happening.

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AndrewJB
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:23 am

nil_desperandum wrote:So can you predict with any degree of certainty how this would break the current Parliamentary deadlock.
No one really knows how an election using our current FPTP system would turn out, but I can make a few predictions
1. A Brexit Party would get quite a lot of votes but probably no seats.
2. Both the main parties would lose quite a lot of votes, but in most cases the current MP would be returned, or Labour might lose a few to Conservative and vice versa, thus resulting in the status quo.
3. The Conservatives would be bitterly divided over their manifesto position and would therefore fudge it thus allowing Steve Baker and Mark Francois to stand as candidates and say one thing about Europe and Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke to stand and say another. This is almost certainly the only thing they could do at this point unless they wanted to swing one way or another. In this event you'd have Conservatives fighting each other as Independents in many seats.
4. Conservatives would lose the gains they made in Scotland.
5. There would be a high turn out amongst the young and remainers, as it would be seen as their "People's Vote"

None of the above make a GE attractive to the Conservatives, so it won't be happening.

Labour’s best pitch would be to concentrate on the many other issues the Tories have since neglected - education, the NHS, jobs, and housing; while setting out a Brexit position of customs union renegotiation with a second referendum to follow. Then field Brexit related questions with: “this is a Tory issue”

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Burnley Ace
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Burnley Ace » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:52 am

AndrewJB wrote:Labour’s best pitch would be to concentrate on the many other issues the Tories have since neglected - education, the NHS, jobs, and housing; while setting out a Brexit position of customs union renegotiation with a second referendum to follow. Then field Brexit related questions with: “this is a Tory issue”

It worked last time!

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:55 am

BleedingClaret wrote:So the ‘Peoples’ Vote can be Mays deal or Remain
We’re not that thick
Or it can be Mays Deal No deal or Revoke
FPTP LMFTO
Or straight Leave or remain 2
if Leave wins then everyone votes again on soft or hard
Er No
A referendum with the same Parliament in place
NOT Happening..
I accept only a GE
You sneaky f*****s don’t honour Referendums


They promise to honour the result if it goes their way.
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# 23
Damo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Damo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:27 pm

IMG_20190409_142514.jpg
IMG_20190409_142514.jpg (221.84 KiB) Viewed 1482 times

:lol:

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Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Mala591 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:46 pm

May's deal plus customs union

Minimise disruption at UK/EU borders - YES
Independent immigration policy - YES
Independent agricultural policy - YES
Independent fisheries policy - YES

Independent international trade policy - NO
End of annual payments into the EU - NO
Place at the table to negotiate new EU trade deals - NO

In YOUR humble opinion is it worth it ?

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Devils_Advocate
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Devils_Advocate » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:00 pm

Damo wrote:
IMG_20190409_142514.jpg

:lol:

Come on Damo, I usually like your posts and take on things but this isn't good. Whilst it might seem like fun to most of us remember we have a few weak lily-livered posters on here who are very vulnerable and susceptible to these UKIP and EDL type pleas for money.

Id hate to see them throwing more money away that they can ill afford so just think before you post in future
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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:16 pm

Mala591 wrote:May's deal plus customs union

Minimise disruption at UK/EU borders - YES
Independent immigration policy - YES
Independent agricultural policy - YES
Independent fisheries policy - YES

Independent international trade policy - NO
End of annual payments into the EU - NO
Place at the table to negotiate new EU trade deals - NO

In YOUR humble opinion is it worth it ?


Nope.

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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:27 pm

Mala591 wrote:May's deal plus customs union

Minimise disruption at UK/EU borders - YES
Independent immigration policy - YES
Independent agricultural policy - YES
Independent fisheries policy - YES

Independent international trade policy - NO
End of annual payments into the EU - NO
Place at the table to negotiate new EU trade deals - NO

In YOUR humble opinion is it worth it ?

May's deal does not give us an independent agricultural policy, because it restricts subsidy to farmers to no more in total than would be paid in 2019 under CAP. And it does not give an independent immigration policy because entry to the single market is dependent on allowing free movement.

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Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Mala591 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:45 pm

dsr wrote:May's deal does not give us an independent agricultural policy, because it restricts subsidy to farmers to no more in total than would be paid in 2019 under CAP. And it does not give an independent immigration policy because entry to the single market is dependent on allowing free movement.


It is possible to be in the EU customs union but not in the single market e.g. Turkey - so my post is correct. So, if we remain in the customs union but leave the single market we WILL be able to have independent agricultural and immigration policies.

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dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby dsr » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:53 pm

Mala591 wrote:It is possible to be in the EU customs union but not in the single market e.g. Turkey - so my post is correct. So, if we remain in the customs union but leave the single market we WILL be able to have independent agricultural and immigration policies.

May's deal does take us into the single market; and May's deal also covers the scenario that we won't be able to subsidise farmers any more than we do now, but in 2021 when the CAP has its 7-year review, the rest of the EU's farming subsidies will rise and ours won't be allowed to. So, not independent.

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Damo
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Damo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Come on Damo, I usually like your posts and take on things but this isn't good. Whilst it might seem like fun to most of us remember we have a few weak lily-livered posters on here who are very vulnerable and susceptible to these UKIP and EDL type pleas for money.

Id hate to see them throwing more money away that they can ill afford so just think before you post in future

In my defence. I did remove part of the link in my original post
IMG_20190409_165507.jpg
IMG_20190409_165507.jpg (225.2 KiB) Viewed 1405 times
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Mala591
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Mala591 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:22 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eclaration

dsr wrote:May's deal does take us into the single market; and May's deal also covers the scenario that we won't be able to subsidise farmers any more than we do now, but in 2021 when the CAP has its 7-year review, the rest of the EU's farming subsidies will rise and ours won't be allowed to. So, not independent.


May's deal DOESN'T take us into the single market. See link to the political declaration (above).

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:26 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So can you predict with any degree of certainty how this would break the current Parliamentary deadlock.
No one really knows how an election using our current FPTP system would turn out, but I can make a few predictions
1. A Brexit Party would get quite a lot of votes but probably no seats.
2. Both the main parties would lose quite a lot of votes, but in most cases the current MP would be returned, or Labour might lose a few to Conservative and vice versa, thus resulting in the status quo.
3. The Conservatives would be bitterly divided over their manifesto position and would therefore fudge it thus allowing Steve Baker and Mark Francois to stand as candidates and say one thing about Europe and Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke to stand and say another. This is almost certainly the only thing they could do at this point unless they wanted to swing one way or another. In this event you'd have Conservatives fighting each other as Independents in many seats.
4. Conservatives would lose the gains they made in Scotland.
5. There would be a high turn out amongst the young and remainers, as it would be seen as their "People's Vote"

None of the above make a GE attractive to the Conservatives, so it won't be happening.


Oh I’m just hoping it’ll go the way I want or I wont accept it and I’ll demand another one

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby BleedingClaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:46 pm

The Eu gives a longer extension if we agree that our MEPs will behave
If they assure this by either rolling on the current UK MEPSs or allowing Parliamentary parties to be allowed to put new ones in place in lines with Parliamentary numbers, both have been suggested, then Democracy is dead.

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CrosspoolClarets
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:03 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So can you predict with any degree of certainty how this would break the current Parliamentary deadlock.
No one really knows how an election using our current FPTP system would turn out, but I can make a few predictions
1. A Brexit Party would get quite a lot of votes but probably no seats.
2. Both the main parties would lose quite a lot of votes, but in most cases the current MP would be returned, or Labour might lose a few to Conservative and vice versa, thus resulting in the status quo.
3. The Conservatives would be bitterly divided over their manifesto position and would therefore fudge it thus allowing Steve Baker and Mark Francois to stand as candidates and say one thing about Europe and Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke to stand and say another. This is almost certainly the only thing they could do at this point unless they wanted to swing one way or another. In this event you'd have Conservatives fighting each other as Independents in many seats.
4. Conservatives would lose the gains they made in Scotland.
5. There would be a high turn out amongst the young and remainers, as it would be seen as their "People's Vote"

None of the above make a GE attractive to the Conservatives, so it won't be happening.


I agree with this.

The only way an election is palatable is under a new Tory leader with a manifesto very distinct from Labours which allows the public to make a genuine choice. That could (and should) happen in the autumn, or next spring, but not today.

The issues won't be about whether the two big parties disappear (though a third party aligned to Brexit gaining equal strength is possible if the Remain side of the Tories retain control and Brexiteers / donors abandon ship).

The issue will be the degree to which the policies of these parties have to pander to the extremes, to which many in society are being shoved by the incompetence of this parliament (no deal Brexit, no Brexit, nationalising all public services, huge tax rises, scrapping Trident, giving away Northern Ireland, slashing immigration, scrapping the Lords or the Monarchy). All kinds of things like these, which should be unthinkable, are now in play.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:33 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I think that any left leaning party that has spent forty years on the sidelines and gets into government would be crazy (or really, just bereft of any kind of imagination) to introduce rigid centralised state control everywhere (if that's what you mean by the excesses of Marxism). State ownership won't mean "managed by the PMs office" - as there appears to be a recognition for the benefits of pluralism - and not just state or private, but using partnerships and cooperatives too. Rather than imposing economic plans, I can see the state working alongside business and publicly owned entities to create one together. The country will have goals - reducing carbon emissions for example - and the responsibility for achieving this will also fall on business, but with a recognised direction of travel, and the knowledge that government will lead the way through investment, I can't see how capital will shy away. And if the country puts a real effort into raising the living standards of the poorest, what business wouldn't be happy with another few million potential customers with more money in their pockets?



I am not sure Mr Corbyn shares your views.

I suggest he has hardline Marxist views as do some of his closest followers.

Abbott praising Mao for one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAMTXFwyIE

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby SmudgetheClaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:27 pm

Teresa Maybe said it would be wrong to hold the EU elections(whilst sending out emails for members to apply) and that they would be "very divisive" she really has some front ...what she really means is the main party's will get smashed..

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby South West Claret. » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:34 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I am not sure Mr Corbyn shares your views.

I suggest he has hardline Marxist views as do some of his closest followers.

Abbott praising Mao for one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAMTXFwyIE


I clicked on the link for curiosity and saw Neil and Portillo then clicked back for obvious reasons. :roll:

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:38 pm

Mala591 wrote:May's deal plus customs union

Minimise disruption at UK/EU borders - YES
Independent immigration policy - YES
Independent agricultural policy - YES
Independent fisheries policy - YES

Independent international trade policy - NO
End of annual payments into the EU - NO
Place at the table to negotiate new EU trade deals - NO

In YOUR humble opinion is it worth it ?

If I were a leaver I would look at that list and say; "as part of the journey of leaving this is a good first step" We already have a great deal of freedom within the EU to pursue many different kinds of policies - justice, foreign, military, industrial, socio-economic, educational, healthcare, etc - so independent agricultural and fisheries policies might not sound like a lot by themselves, but when we consider all the other policy changes we might have to make on leaving the EU then we still have a lot of work to do. Why overburden ourselves with having to negotiate trade deals with other countries too?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:04 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If I were a leaver I would look at that list and say; "as part of the journey of leaving this is a good first step" We already have a great deal of freedom within the EU to pursue many different kinds of policies - justice, foreign, military, industrial, socio-economic, educational, healthcare, etc - so independent agricultural and fisheries policies might not sound like a lot by themselves, but when we consider all the other policy changes we might have to make on leaving the EU then we still have a lot of work to do. Why overburden ourselves with having to negotiate trade deals with other countries too?


That logic is fine, as long as we have a full seat at the table.

The link I made yesterday relating to Germany had a load of their bigwigs, including the recent vice chancellor, suggesting a new type of customs union that gives us full rights to negotiate tariffs and also a right to leave. He said we are too big and powerful to treat in any other way, even if the current imbeciles in the Commons are happy to be treated that way.

Otherwise the EU can shaft us at any turn, e.g. retaliating to the likes of Trump by applying punitive tariffs without due regard to our needs. The Customs Union is a terrible, terrible idea unless we use our power and influence to negotiate a new type. We would end up falling out with the EU and crashing out of the CU, causing damage to both us and the EU. Basically, we are not Turkey. I agree with the Germans.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:13 pm

SmudgetheClaret wrote:Teresa Maybe said it would be wrong to hold the EU elections(whilst sending out emails for members to apply) and that they would be "very divisive" she really has some front ...what she really means is the main party's will get smashed..

That really rather depends on what Labour puts in it's EU manifesto.
People will be voting for MEPs - NOT for Corbyn, and if prospective Labour MEPs stand on a pro-EU / People's Vote ticket they will get a lot of remain support from both left and right. (The negative Corbyn factor shouldn't play much of a role).
Got to remember it's not FPTP.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby AndrewJB » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:07 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:I am not sure Mr Corbyn shares your views.

I suggest he has hardline Marxist views as do some of his closest followers.

Abbott praising Mao for one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAMTXFwyIE


How have you reached the conclusion that Corbyn is a hardline Marxist? Or which hardline Marxist views does he hold? From his own words please.

The last Labour manifesto - and this is under Corbyn's leadership - was very radical compared to recent Labour manifestos, yet it wasn't all written by Corbyn and it was largely supported by the members. It took the party from being twenty points behind in the polls - which everyone assumed would lead to a boring Tory landslide - to pretty much equal. Some might argue that had the election continued for another week or so Corbyn would have won a majority. And this manifesto wasn't a Marxist one.

As for his "followers" - he has supporters, fair enough, but followers? He's not Jesus, and he's not even a naughty boy. He's just a backbench MP who very reluctantly took up the challenge because it was his turn to be a "left wing nobody candidate" - and because he stood against austerity, privitasation, tax cuts for the rich, etc; he won. It's not him as a person, but the ideas that resonate. Put another way - had Ed Miliband stood on Labour's 2017 manifesto, he would still be PM now (and there would have been no brexit crisis).

The whole "cult of Corbyn" thing has been put out as a distraction from the ideas he's putting forward. The "Corbyn is a hardline Marxist" thing is a media bookend on the other side of the distraction. Rationally, as a consumer of news and ideas, you're locked in.

Read Corbyn in his own words, and as I've said, the left has moved on.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:36 pm

AndrewJB wrote:How have you reached the conclusion that Corbyn is a hardline Marxist? Or which hardline Marxist views does he hold? From his own words please.

The last Labour manifesto - and this is under Corbyn's leadership - was very radical compared to recent Labour manifestos, yet it wasn't all written by Corbyn and it was largely supported by the members. It took the party from being twenty points behind in the polls - which everyone assumed would lead to a boring Tory landslide - to pretty much equal. Some might argue that had the election continued for another week or so Corbyn would have won a majority. And this manifesto wasn't a Marxist one.

As for his "followers" - he has supporters, fair enough, but followers? He's not Jesus, and he's not even a naughty boy. He's just a backbench MP who very reluctantly took up the challenge because it was his turn to be a "left wing nobody candidate" - and because he stood against austerity, privitasation, tax cuts for the rich, etc; he won. It's not him as a person, but the ideas that resonate. Put another way - had Ed Miliband stood on Labour's 2017 manifesto, he would still be PM now (and there would have been no brexit crisis).

The whole "cult of Corbyn" thing has been put out as a distraction from the ideas he's putting forward. The "Corbyn is a hardline Marxist" thing is a media bookend on the other side of the distraction. Rationally, as a consumer of news and ideas, you're locked in.

Read Corbyn in his own words, and as I've said, the left has moved on.


We will have to humbly disagree.
My humbly opinion is that’s what he and his leadership team are.

If he ever gets in we can see what his actions become.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Lowbankclaret » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 pm

EU have refused the short extension.

Welcome to the EU elections.

A new Brexit word, a flextension.

That’s another year of this to come boys, girls and gender neutrals.etc.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:25 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Really ? Why haven't you mentioned it before ? ;)



Because, until now, the UK's inclusion in EU parliamentary elections hadn't been confirmed.

Only now has another of my predictions been proven correct.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Right_winger » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:35 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Because, until now, the UK's inclusion in EU parliamentary elections hadn't been confirmed.

Only now has another of my predictions been proven correct.


Ringo, it’s been a niggle in the back of most people’s minds aswell that the establishment won’t allow us to leave.

The EU are very well versed on subverting referendums and the same is happening ( has happened ) here.

The decisions have been made long ago and the latest show is just the politial class revealing their hand to the public now.

Unfortunately democracy isn’t fully allowed for the UK and indeed in the EU.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:37 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Oh bless once again you flaunt your ignorance like a badge of honour! Haven’t you had enough of being shown up as an utter buffoon? You even written the answer in your little rant - The VOTE , which followed the first debate on the EU Referendum Bill, means the legislation moves to the next stage of its progress through Parliament - it was a vote after the first debate you dullard!!! Labour MPs abstained on the vote to make the Bill an Act and that my little friend is a fact! It’s EVIDENCE:-)


You can claim someone is a "dullard" a "buffoon" "ignorant" etc etc.

But when you fail to comprehend the simplest of straight forward questions namely "Did the majority of Labour MPs vote to have an eu referendum?". While displaying cringe worthy desperation to avoid admitting you were wrong when you incorrectly answered "no"

There is only one person who's a "dullard" a "buffoon" and "ignorant" and unable to fathom out that when
MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the bill."
. It means the majority of Labour MPs voted to have an EU referendum.

You do comprehension of straight forward questions and maths like you do admitting you're wrong.

You don't!

But the squirming your only to willing to do , is a joy to behold!

Please, please, please come back and try to claim the majority of Labour MPs didn't vote to have an eu referendum, while subconsciously admitting they did by actually including the phrase "The VOTE, which followed the first debate on the EU Referendum Bill!"

Promise me you will. It's like shooting fish in a barrel!
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:48 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:47 pm

aggi wrote:Weirdly bringing the bus up again.

It's strange how you keep mentioning these things where you claimed someone said something but can never actually find the posts where it happened. Just coincidence I guess.


Funny how your memory fails at the most convenient time. Coincidence I guess.

I was right though wasn't I!?

You tried to brush it off as just "contingency plans".

The establishment and political class have had a well organised, well choreographed and very well financed operation to thwart the biggest single expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed. As I pointed out in September/ October, Bercows announcement back in March last year, that millions had been earmarked (You even picked me up on the fact I'd said a million and you pedantically jumped down my throat pointing to the exact figure of around 850,000 ) was more proof of my claim.

Another one that can't bring them self round to admitting old Ringo was right again.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:06 am

Right_winger wrote:Ringo, it’s been a niggle in the back of most people’s minds aswell that the establishment won’t allow us to leave.

The EU are very well versed on subverting referendums and the same is happening ( has happened ) here.

The decisions have been made long ago and the latest show is just the politial class revealing their hand to the public now.

Unfortunately democracy isn’t fully allowed for the UK and indeed in the EU.


You can trace this right back to the Gina Miller court case.

A judicial decision made by fervent europhiles, putting the Brexit process into the jaws of a Parliament packed to the gunnels with Remoaners was only ever going to have one outcome.

I remember listening to Ian Dale on the night miller secured a meaningful vote and putting the process in parliaments hands ( not the government, which is what the electoral commission approved wording on the booklet that was sent to every household in the land stated) He said now what will happen is that every time May goes to Brussels parliament will simply vote down anything that looks like a true Brexit.

And that's what's happened.

Bercow being kept in place despite the QC lead independent parliamentary inquiry into bullying in Westminster recommending a root and branch reform of the culture in parliament. Beginning with the Speaker himself. Saw a whole legion of female labour MPs running to his defence, apparently throwing decades of principles on women's rights out the window because " Brexit is more important than bullying!!!" And "Bercow is in place to stop brexit "

We've had the spectacle of MPs and unelected europhiles in regular and unashamed parallel and rival talks in Brussels.

The day Geoffrey Cox was in talks with the EU to discuss the backstop, the duplicitous cock roach Dominic Grieve was in Paris having brazen simultaneous and completely undermining talks with French europhiles.

This constant 5th columnist , behaviour has simply emboldened the EU into carrying out exactly what Barnier said right back at the beginning of the whole democracy denying pantomime.


J’aurais réussi ma mission si, à la fin, le deal est tellement dur pour les Britanniques qu’ils préféront rester dans l’Union.”

In English: “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.
EU chief negotiator, Michel Barnier.

He's been aided and abetted by nest a unpatriotic, manifesto pledge denying, duplicitous cabal of shameless salary thieving rats.

NEVER HAVE SO MANY BEEN BETRAYED BY SO FEW

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:18 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:You can trace this right back to the Gina Miller court case.

A judicial decision made by fervent europhiles, putting the Brexit process into the jaws of a Parliament packed to the gunnels with Remoaners was only ever going to have one outcome.

I remember listening to Ian Dale on the night miller secured a meaningful vote and putting the process in parliaments hands ( not the government, which is what the electoral commission approved wording on the booklet that was sent to every household in the land stated) He said now what will happen is that every time May goes to Brussels parliament will simply vote down anything that looks like a true Brexit.

And that's what's happened.

Bercow being kept in place despite the QC lead independent parliamentary inquiry into bullying in Westminster recommending a root and branch reform of the culture in parliament. Beginning with the Speaker himself. Saw a whole legion of female labour MPs running to his defence, apparently throwing decades of principles on women's rights out the window because " Brexit is more important than bullying!!!" And "Bercow is in place to stop brexit "

We've had the spectacle of MPs and unelected europhiles in regular and unashamed parallel and rival talks in Brussels.

The day Geoffrey Cox was in talks with the EU to discuss the backstop, the duplicitous cock roach Dominic Grieve was in Paris having brazen simultaneous and completely undermining talks with French europhiles.

This constant 5th columnist , behaviour has simply emboldened the EU into carrying out exactly what Barnier said right back at the beginning of the whole democracy denying pantomime.


J’aurais réussi ma mission si, à la fin, le deal est tellement dur pour les Britanniques qu’ils préféront rester dans l’Union.”

In English: “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.
EU chief negotiator, Barnier



NEVER HAVE SO MANY BEEN BETRAYED BY SO FEW

Simplified exactly what has been going on & still is, sickening really.
https://youtu.be/M1tfNYl0PGI

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Postby RingoMcCartney » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:36 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Simplified exactly what has been going on & still is, sickening really.
https://youtu.be/M1tfNYl0PGI


The argument has come down to 2 sides.

On one side. Those whose position is based on maintining the status quo and preserving their privilege , while pointing to economic forecasts to justify it. Plus naive, gullible millenials who have fallen for Project Fears "the sky's going to fall in" shtick.

On the other. Those whose position is based on the principle that democracy should be respected and results as expressions of that democracy, must be implemented.


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