Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[martin_p]

Cameron wasn't panicking about losing seats to UKIP. He was panicking about losing votes to UKIP in marginal constituencies which could let in Labour or Liberals.

And he ended up gaining seats and getting a majority, the panic was misplaced.

[dsr]

And he ended up gaining seats and getting a majority, the panic was misplaced.

Probably it was. Especially as Labour, at least in the north, were also losing votes to UKIP. There were 3.8m UKIP votes in the general election 2015, even with the referendum promise.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

Makes me laugh, this. Unlike yourself, I was a staunch supporter of Labour's 2017 manifesto. But having read so many EU Commission web pages about State Aid and Public Procurement Rules, it's become obvious to me that there was never any chance that manifesto could' ever be implemented whilst being an EU member. So I'm considering voting for the Brexit Party, too! (Please don't let me vote for Farage! H-E-L-P!)

Really?

Not that you are voting for Farage (I can't comment on what makes you vote for an actual racist, whatever the reason) but that the EU stops Labs 2017 manifesto. I thought at the time that it was pretty clear that it didn't? (Air France being the classic example of a failing company kept going by French aid)

[CrosspoolClarets]

Makes me laugh, this. Unlike yourself, I was a staunch supporter of Labour's 2017 manifesto. But having read so many EU Commission web pages about State Aid and Public Procurement Rules, it's become obvious to me that there was never any chance that manifesto could' ever be implemented whilst being an EU member. So I'm considering voting for the Brexit Party, too! (Please don't let me vote for Farage! H-E-L-P!)

Exactly. It would be a tactical vote to get what you want. I agree with you that the neoliberal EU would never allow those things and I also agree there may be some merit in aspects of them.

P.s. there is a contrary view to this, which Lancs alluded to:

http://renewal.org.uk/blog/eu-law-is-no ... -programme

[tiger76]

Didn't want to start another thread so i'll post this here,Ringo will be delighted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47960001

I can't see this motion getting anywhere but you never know in the current climate.

[Lancasterclaret]

The only problem in voting for Farage Brexit Party is that he will see it as a vote for him, and so will the media and the other political parties.

What does he stand for if you take away his Brexit stuff?

Nothing nice

So bear that in mind.

[RingoMcCartney]

The only problem in voting for Farage Brexit Party is that he will see it as a vote for him,

What does he stand for if you take away his Brexit stuff?
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He likes the idea that the biggest expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed, actually being implemented..........

[Lancasterclaret]

He likes the idea that the biggest expression of democracy the nation has ever witnessed, actually being implemented..........

Apart from his Brexit stuff! Ringo Apart from his Brexit stuff!

[RingoMcCartney]

Apart from his Brexit stuff! Ringo Apart from his Brexit stuff!

Damn right.

Let's focus on the other "stuff" eh.?

Ignore the triviality of democracy.

[aggi]

I think with respect you’re being equally swayed.

What we have all learned after this is that there are many different “layers” of the EU, some officially in, some officially out. The below sums it up nicely on Vox.com.

Actually, whether we are “officially” in or out is of less relevance than where we sit in the diagram. Arguably, whatever the narrow 4% win, for Remain or Leave, a new ring should have been created, to suit the desires of the public. Were Remain to have a narrow win, a compromise to listen to the Leavers could have been the EEA ring and the Customs Union ring too, with a new ring for us to denote close partnership in other areas, keeping the four freedoms but loosening our relationship in a few areas. If Leave had a narrow win, a FTA could sit us outside the Council Of Europe, but with a new ring to denote close partnership in many areas outside trade, with fairly flexible migration built into the FTA.

In reality, the two solutions wouldn’t feel much different to the person in the street, and would perfectly suit 2 referendum outcomes that are just 4% apart. In effect, it would be the new relationship Cameron tried to negotiate. It would probably have kept 75% of us happy, as long as it was made clear when we voted.

Now of course, there has been so much bad blood, thanks to rabid Remain MPs, that isn’t possible. I don’t mean the few dozen hard integrationists on one side, and the few dozen ERG on the other, I mean the rump in the middle, who have done little but cause trouble.

I see your point that a marginal victory for Remain shouldn't lead to close integration. The venn diagram you posted though seems to illustrate that this is exactly what we have at the moment, we're as far on the outskirts of the EU as is possible without leaving the EU (which would be a very strange approach to a majority wanting to stay in the EU).

Obviously I don't agree on the moderate remain MPs causing the "bad blood". That was my original point, the original proposals were so Leave focused with so little compromise that it was clear that Remain MPs would push back strongly. If May had tried to compromise rather than take tips from Ringo on what Brexit means then it would have been a much smoother route.

[Lancasterclaret]

Damn right.

Let's focus on the other "stuff" eh.?

Ignore the triviality of democracy.

Take away his Brexit stuff.

Tell me his policies on the housing crisis, on creating jobs, on the NHS?

Its all there if you want to look for it, and its not nice.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The only problem in voting for Farage Brexit Party is that he will see it as a vote for him, and so will the media and the other political parties.

What does he stand for if you take away his Brexit stuff?

Nothing nice

So bear that in mind.

It's very frustrating. I've written before that I think the SDP is the natural home for moderates who are economically slightly left of centre and socially slightly right of centre. But the SDP has not yet received the profile or funding to get votes. The real battleground here is who represents socially conservative thinkers (as Professor John Curtis, who hopefully we all agree is very balanced, has written).

The laissez faire Tory MPs with their pandering to big business don't do it, and their resistance to Brexit is a symptom of this thinking. Anybody not agreeing is consigned to the margins of the party. Labour have also moved away from their traditionally conservative (but economically left wing) blue collar workers.

So if those parties are to be given a bloody nose by social conservatives who believe strongly in more tradition and control in their lives (including leaving the EU), who do they vote for?

Sadly, it can only, currently, be Farage (or not voting at all). Despite 90% of those voting for him not fully signing up to the Steve Bannon view of the world. They are simply good, honest, social conservatives.

The alternative is to vote for a party on a "anyone but...." basis. That's what May has been trying, hoping she can get anything through because Corbyn is so polarising. But it doesn't work. These parties need to be forced to offer their electorate a bold vision, not just slagging off the opposition. No, I've thought long and hard about this, but we've got to open Pandora's box a bit wider, so that those in power wake up.

[Lancasterclaret]

It's very frustrating. I've written before that I think the SDP is the natural home for moderates who are economically slightly left of centre and socially slightly right of centre. But the SDP has not yet received the profile or funding to get votes. The real battleground here is who represents socially conservative thinkers (as Professor John Curtis, who hopefully we all agree is very balanced, has written).

The laissez faire Tory MPs with their pandering to big business don't do it, and their resistance to Brexit is a symptom of this thinking. Anybody not agreeing is consigned to the margins of the party. Labour have also moved away from their traditionally conservative (but economically left wing) blue collar workers.

So if those parties are to be given a bloody nose by social conservatives who believe strongly in more tradition and control in their lives (including leaving the EU), who do they vote for?

Sadly, it can only, currently, be Farage (or not voting at all). Despite 90% of those voting for him not fully signing up to the Steve Bannon view of the world. They are simply good, honest, social conservatives.

The alternative is to vote for a party on a "anyone but...." basis. That's what May has been trying, hoping she can get anything through because Corbyn is so polarising. But it doesn't work. These parties need to be forced to offer their electorate a bold vision, not just slagging off the opposition. No, I've thought long and hard about this, but we've got to open Pandora's box a bit wider, so that those in power wake up.

The only way that people will stop voting for the big two is if we changed to PR, and then we'd have to be ready as a country to accept that everything is a compromise.

Its definitely needed, but are we ready for that?

[summitclaret]

Anything that gives the SNP power or influence in england needs avoiding as does Scottish independence.

[RingoMcCartney]

Take away his Brexit stuff.

Tell me his policies on the housing crisis, on creating jobs, on the NHS?

Its all there if you want to look for it, and its not nice.

"Housing, jobs and the NHS". Defence, education transport.

They vanish without democracy, and people's trust in it.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

"Housing, jobs and the NHS". Defence, education transport.

They vanish without democracy, and people's trust in it.

Again, tell everyone what farage stands for without his Brexit stuff.

You vote for that as well.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

It's tricky. Farage is the epitome of everything I don't like about humans. You probably won't accept the premise of the question, but imagine you had decided to be a left wing leaver. Of the options available at the Euro elections, who do you vote for to send that message? It's between Labour and The Brexit Party. But Labour's list of candidates is chock full of uber remainers.

I'm in the process of desperately exchanging emails with other Lexiters, trying to figure out what's best to do, all hoping one of us comes up with a plan that doesn't involve voting for Farage.

It's not particularly unprecedented, really. Enoch Powell and Tony Benn found themselves on the same side of the EEC debate in the 70s, after all.

No I get that, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is Brexit more important to you than giving a known racist and very right wing Farage a platform?

Two years ago, I was very sure that the loons would never take over. Now? After two years of this, I'm no longer sure because posters who are not raving loons are essentially voting the same way as the raving loons.

[Lancasterclaret]

And a compilation of Farages greatest hits (for anyone still thinking of voting for him)

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1 ... 0932847616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

Again, tell everyone what farage stands for without his Brexit stuff.

You vote for that as well.

The idea of taking part in a circular argument, when I'm trying to finish early for what promises to be a great weekend for me.( eating at Panoramic 34 and staying at the Pullman! ), with somebody who clearly has scant regard for democracy, expressions of it, and its implementation, isn't the most attractive of propositions to be honest.

So if it's a toss up between risking delaying fine dining and 4 star living, even if it's only for one night, and carrying on with you, there's only going to be one winner.

Tomorrow, ill have a fantastic view of the Liverpool skyline. In stark contrast, you clearly can't see that democracy and it's enactment underpins everything on which a civilised, peacefull society relies upon.

Toodle pip.

[Lancasterclaret]

The idea of taking part in a circular argument, when I'm trying to finish early for what promises to be a great weekend for me.( eating at Panoramic 34 and staying at the Pullman! ), with somebody who clearly has scant regard for democracy, expressions of it, and its implementation, isn't the most attractive of propositions to be honest.

So if it's a toss up between risking delaying fine dining and 4 star living, even if it's only for one night, and carrying on with you, there's only going to be one winner.

Tomorrow, ill have a fantastic view of the Liverpool skyline. In stark contrast, you clearly can't see that democracy and it's enactment underpins everything on which a civilised, peacefull society relies upon.

Toodle pip.

Standard Ringo.

Ignore question, personally insult, and **** off.

Have a nice weekend mate, and never change!

[claret2018]

Ringo would you be in favour of a no deal/remain referendum if parliament makes no progress in the next few months?

[summitclaret]

Anyone that still supports leave has to vote for the brexit
party in the euro elections. It in no way means that you support Farage personally. If you don't and the remain parties get the highest % then you are playing into the hands of people's vote brigade. Also remembet the 90% of tory MPs have voted for May's deal whilst almost 100% of labour mps voted against. So a vote for Labour is a remain vote. 28 tories voted against as mays deal is not really brexit, whilst 8 are people's voters.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo would you be in favour of a no deal/remain referendum if parliament makes no progress in the next few months?

No.







Why should Leave have to have had won TWO referenda to have its view implemented. Whereas Remain, presumably, would only have to win ONE? Unless you want to go down the best of 3, 5, 7 route.

[RingoMcCartney]

Have a great sunny and warm Easter weekend Ladies.

[martin_p]

The idea of taking part in a circular argument, when I'm trying to finish early for what promises to be a great weekend for me.( eating at Panoramic 34 and staying at the Pullman! ), with somebody who clearly has scant regard for democracy, expressions of it, and its implementation, isn't the most attractive of propositions to be honest.

So if it's a toss up between risking delaying fine dining and 4 star living, even if it's only for one night, and carrying on with you, there's only going to be one winner.

Tomorrow, ill have a fantastic view of the Liverpool skyline. In stark contrast, you clearly can't see that democracy and it's enactment underpins everything on which a civilised, peacefull society relies upon.

Toodle pip.

Keep your views to yourself in Liverpool, it’s staunchly Remain.

[dsr]

Keep your views to yourself in Liverpool, it’s staunchly Remain.

But perhaps some of their Remain supporters are willing to be tolerant of other opinions?

[martin_p]

But perhaps some of their Remain supporters are willing to be tolerant of other opinions?

If he spouts off like he does on here about ‘remoaners’, ‘ivory tower metropolitan elite’ and ‘usurping democracy’, amongst other things then I wouldn’t think so.

[dsr]

If he spouts off like he does on here about ‘remoaners’, ‘ivory tower metropolitan elite’ and ‘usurping democracy’, amongst other things then I wouldn’t think so.

Even on here, behind the cloak of anonymity, there are only five or so rabidly intolerant remainers.

[martin_p]

Even on here, behind the cloak of anonymity, there are only five or so rabidly intolerant remainers.

It’s the way he delivers his views that may cause an issue.

[Damo]

I thought you remoaners were a peaceful bunch Martin?

[keith1879]

Even on here, behind the cloak of anonymity, there are only five or so rabidly intolerant remainers.

Personally I find that rabidly intolerant supporters of any viewpoint are equally off-putting. Sadly these days it seems to be a badge of superiority to demonstrate no concept of doubt or balance.

[martin_p]

I thought you remoaners were a peaceful bunch Martin?

Who mentioned violence?

[Bordeauxclaret]

He’ll be staggering around drunk by now. Nobody will be able to tell what he’s saying.

[Damo]

Who mentioned violence?

I'm not sure Martin. Did I?

[CrosspoolClarets]

There's an awful lot - indeed the majority - of Labour's 2017 commitments that is simply not allowed in the EU. As for 'Remain and Reform', it's a myth. Neoliberalism is locked in with Maastricht and Lisbon.

I agree entirely, which is why I agreed but put up the contrary view for context.

The question is why you, a Momentum supporter, and Jezza, could not bring more Remainers with you on that argument? The blue collar ones sure, but Jezza has a wider base than that. Why does he not shout this out louder?

The wider question is whether neoliberalism benefits most of us, and if it does not, why are we still debating staying?

I suspect it is because most people haven't fully thought it through, but I can accept it may be me who hasn't (but I haven't yet been persuaded of that by anyone).

[Lancasterclaret]

I agree entirely, which is why I agreed but put up the contrary view for context.

The question is why you, a Momentum supporter, and Jezza, could not bring more Remainers with you on that argument? The blue collar ones sure, but Jezza has a wider base than that. Why does he not shout this out louder?

The wider question is whether neoliberalism benefits most of us, and if it does not, why are we still debating staying?

I suspect it is because most people haven't fully thought it through, but I can accept it may be me who hasn't (but I haven't yet been persuaded of that by anyone).

Because there is enough evidence to suggest both you and ITBYW are not correct.

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[nil_desperandum]

I want to be a remainer. Please help me. Point me to an official source (e.g. EU Commission page, rather than an opinion piece) that suggest Labour can implement a state run monopoly railway system. Or one that doesn't clearly forbid a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to British companies (above the very low de minimis limit). Something to say Labour can monopolise a utility, perhaps? And that's before we even discuss the Viking Line and Laval judgments - a clear assault on the right for unions to organise and, as a last resort, to strike.

Anything. I'd be eternally grateful. I never wanted to be a leaver.

This might help, but there's loads of stuff out there:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... nalisation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

I want to be a remainer. Please help me. Point me to an official source (e.g. EU Commission page, rather than an opinion piece) that suggest Labour can implement a state run monopoly railway system. Or one that doesn't clearly forbid a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to British companies (above the very low de minimis limit). Something to say Labour can monopolise a utility, perhaps? And that's before we even discuss the Viking Line and Laval judgments - a clear assault on the right for unions to organise and, as a last resort, to strike.

Anything. I'd be eternally grateful. I never wanted to be a leaver.

State run railways are the norm in the EU, so you've got that for starters.

Again, the national bank should be perfectly possible, as it was never intended to give huge loans to UK companies

And it depends on how you want to monopolise the utilities. if you want to seize then ala proper left wing loon states, then yeah, you've got an issue, but buying them back into the state over time? Not sure anything stopping that.

I can't help thinking (just like the FTA beliefs held on here) that because its closer than its ever been to actually happening, problems are being ignored and a lot of creative thinking is going on.

I'll go (apologies in advance!) back to what I've been banging on about since Day One. Show me the benefits of leaving, show me stuff that we can do that will massively help us as a country. Show me something that suggests this isn't going to cause us economic harm for generations and potentially lead to the break up of a country united since the 18th century.

And absolutely crucially, show me where voting for a right wing loon just because he supports Brexit ties in with any beliefs of the left. There just are not any, and its beyond weird that not only are you considering it, but that you do appear to think that it does not affect your left wing views.

He stands for everything that you don't. You cannot ignore that.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So you're concerned about the UK potentially breaking up due to Brexit?
It's going to happen at some point, the SNP are determined to win a referendum over it, they're just looking for the perfect excuse to have another without looking like complete dicks.
If they didn't have Brexit, they'd find something else quite simply.

[Elizabeth]

Can someone tell me why it is a personal insult to respond that another poster clearly doesn't put democracy as paramount?
I know there has been a very successful clampdown on personal abuse but I think it's very unfair for some posters to be trying to influence moderators in this way. This should be a forum for grown ups

[CrosspoolClarets]

I want to be a remainer. Please help me. Point me to an official source (e.g. EU Commission page, rather than an opinion piece) that suggest Labour can implement a state run monopoly railway system. Or one that doesn't clearly forbid a National Investment Bank preferentially lending to British companies (above the very low de minimis limit). Something to say Labour can monopolise a utility, perhaps? And that's before we even discuss the Viking Line and Laval judgments - a clear assault on the right for unions to organise and, as a last resort, to strike.

Anything. I'd be eternally grateful. I never wanted to be a leaver.

Agree. I don’t agree entirely with all the aspirations but I do agree that a sovereign nation should be able to do it.

A shame that you asked for a non opinion piece and nil desp shared.....an opinion piece.

I feel the same way about the competitiveness of very small companies. I have to compete against the big 4 for work, billion pound companies, and all the rules are stacked in their favour by the EU (I’m not moaning, I get my fair share of wins anyway ).

[Lancasterclaret]

Agree. I don’t agree entirely with all the aspirations but I do agree that a sovereign nation should be able to do it.

A shame that you asked for a non opinion piece and nil desp shared.....an opinion piece.

I feel the same way about the competitiveness of very small companies. I have to compete against the big 4 for work, billion pound companies, and all the rules are stacked in their favour by the EU (I’m not moaning, I get my fair share of wins anyway ).

You think that will get better if we leave the EU?

Thats an, er, "interesting" take

[AndrewJB]

Makes me laugh, this. Unlike yourself, I was a staunch supporter of Labour's 2017 manifesto. But having read so many EU Commission web pages about State Aid and Public Procurement Rules, it's become obvious to me that there was never any chance that manifesto could' ever be implemented whilst being an EU member. So I'm considering voting for the Brexit Party, too! (Please don't let me vote for Farage! H-E-L-P!)

I don't think the EU would stand in the way of Labour's 2017 manifesto. There's nothing in it that doesn't already exist in other EU countries.

[If it be your will]

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