Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Spijed]

If the working class have been ignored how come the vast majority of working class voters in Scotland - nearly 70%, voted to stay?

[dsr]

If the working class have been ignored how come the vast majority of working class voters in Scotland - nearly 70%, voted to stay?

Maybe because the "working class" aren't a solid homogenous lump but have their own opinions like everybody else?

[AndyClaret]

The Brexit Party having its first rally. Looks like a pretty diverse bunch:

That's actually their 5th rally, but nice try anyway.

[Lancasterclaret]

Still all a bit Gammony though Andy

[AndrewJB]

British Rail
British Leyland
British Telecom
Royal Mail (still in a bit of a mess now, but that's largely because of the EU/UK government rules to try and create competition where it shouldn't be. Royal Mail is one area, privatised or otherwise, where artificial competition ought to be either removed or made fair.)

Do you remember how appalling these companies used to be? To get a new phone, for example - you had to go on a waiting list. 6 months was not unusual. British Rail, regardless of what people may think about the railways now, was worse then. British Leyland is still a national joke, 40 years on.

It may be that Corbyn's government would be more competent, more financially savvy, and less in thrall to the unions that Wilson's government was. But I won't hold my breath.

Our railways are already government owned - just not by ours. We have the most expensive fares per mile in Europe, and the companies take four times more in subsidies than BR did. Beyond this, there is nothing wrong with a national asset owned by the people.

As for Royal Mail - what a rip off that was for the country! Two land sales have earned nearly half what Royal Mail was sold off for originally, and rather than using this windfall to improve service, most of it has probably gone on dividends.

It’s not that privatisation always leads to rip off prices and reduced service, but the entity is focused on the bottom line, and without sucficient regulation these things will follow. And the whole point of having the entity in the first place will fade into the background. How many academy schools have been accused of enriching the people who run it? How many energy firms, and telcos, and water companies (not to mention banks and insurance firms) have been caught ripping off consumers, and taxpayers?

[aggi]

That's actually their 5th rally, but nice try anyway.

Apologies, I must have missed the previous four. I assume the others were full of all ages, races and creeds?

[nil_desperandum]

Sorry, I wasnt aware so many labour voters lived in London, considering how many constituencies in London are Tory.

Sorry. I don't understand that - (genuinely).
The Conservatives hold 21 seats out of 73 London Constituencies. It's overwhelmingly Labour with a just a few Libs and Indys thrown in.
(Conservatives have control of just 7 boroughs out of 32. [Lab control 20])

[RingoMcCartney]

Apologies, I must have missed the previous four. I assume the others were full of all ages, races and creeds?

Another identity obsessed metropolitan bubble dweller!

If those pictured were more able to meet your diversity tick box criteria fetish. Would it mean their votes were somehow of more value?

[RingoMcCartney]

Still all a bit Gammony though Andy

When groups of black or Asian people are seen to be voting in a way they feel is beneficial to their communities. It's described as "positive" and "empowerment" it shows their " lives matter"

When whites do the same, nasty racist labels are used to demean them.....

[RingoMcCartney]

Sorry. I don't understand that - (genuinely).
The Conservatives hold 21 seats out of 73 London Constituencies. It's overwhelmingly Labour with a just a few Libs and Indys thrown in.
(Conservatives have control of just 7 boroughs out of 32. [Lab control 20])

What he means is that London skews the labour remain vote given roughly 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted Leave.

Labour - it used to be the Working Class Party

Now it's the Islington Dinner Party.....

[aggi]

Another identity obsessed metropolitan bubble dweller!

If those pictured were more able to meet your diversity tick box criteria fetish. Would it mean their votes were somehow of more value?

Nope, everyone's vote is worth the same. The only person who suggested otherwise is you.

I was more thinking that it doesn't say much for the long-term future of the movement when it's a struggle to pick out anyone under the age of 40 in the picture. Less of a diversity tick box criteria fetish, more of a consideration of the demographics of the Brexit party against the country as a whole.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Apologies, I must have missed the previous four. I assume the others were full of all ages, races and creeds?

It has pretty much the same demographic as my golf club, the Peaks when I go walking, my cycling club, the Rotary club, the local pub, etc. Nothing wrong with any of them.

The sly “Brexit voters are racist” dig (which is what it was, let’s be honest) is something where you can, and usually do, do better. The above post was more like one of Imploding Turtles’. You may have honestly meant to imply the Brexit party simply doesn’t have a broad base, but it didn’t come across like that.

There is a reason why a large chunk of the population are going to vote for the Brexit party from now on. It ain’t anything to do with how people feel about different colours and creeds. It’s because they make an honest political choice and are made to feel about 6 inch tall by the intolerant liberal left. History shows that people tend to double down in those situations.

[martin_p]

What he means is that London skews the labour remain vote given roughly 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted Leave.

Labour - it used to be the Working Class Party

Now it's the Islington Dinner Party.....

You mean like in Liverpool and Manchester? Your ‘London metropolitan elite’ argument is oversimplified, much like every other point you make on here.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nope, everyone's vote is worth the same. .

Good. Then there'll be no need to mention any of the following in the future will there. You wouldn't want to be accused of racism or bigotry would you -

I assume the others were full of all ages, races and creeds?

Glad we cleared that up.

[RingoMcCartney]

You mean like in Liverpool and Manchester? Your ‘London metropolitan elite’ argument is oversimplified, much like every other point you make on here.

Greater Manchester - 10 Boroughs

7 voted Leave.

3 voted Remain.

The fact is that 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted Leave. The London Remain vote skews the overall figures.

I predicted John Bercows role would be pivotal in the Brexit process. You said it wouldn't.

I was right wasn't I Marty. You were wrong weren't you.

[nil_desperandum]

What he means is that London skews the labour remain vote given roughly 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted Leave.

Labour - it used to be the Working Class Party

Now it's the Islington Dinner Party.....

But that's nothing like what he wrote. Hence my genuine question.
If it was intended to be ironic or sarcastic, it didn't come across that way..... and no smiley.
Incidentally, - are Labour votes worth less in the cities than they are in smaller towns, because that seems to be what you imply?
It's quite clear from all available data, that the majority of Labour voters, (throughout the UK),and the majority of Labour Party members are opposed to Brexit, but a large number of these favour compromise. (involving some form of CU / SM).
And this has - broadly - been the Labour position, as stated in their 2017 manifesto.

[martin_p]

Greater Manchester - 10 Boroughs

7 voted Leave.

3 voted Remain.

The fact is that 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted Leave. The London Remain vote skews the overall figures.

I predicted John Bercows role would be pivotal in the Brexit process.

I was right wasn't I Marty.

You know Manchester and Greater Manchester aren’t the same thing don’t you?

I’ve asked at least three times now, what has `pivoted` a on a Bercow decision? What exactly would be different? If his role has been pivotal it should be very easy to answer.

[RingoMcCartney]

But that's nothing like what he wrote. Hence my genuine question.
If it was intended to be ironic or sarcastic, it didn't come across that way..... and no smiley.
Incidentally, - are Labour votes worth less in the cities than they are in smaller towns, because that seems to be what you imply?
It's quite clear from all available data, that the majority of Labour voters, (throughout the UK),and the majority of Labour Party members are opposed to Brexit, but a large number of these favour compromise. (involving some form of CU / SM).
And this has - broadly - been the Labour position, as stated in their 2017 manifesto.

He was clearly being sarcy.

And you may genuinely believe that the labour party is honouring the manifesto pledges on Brexit , on which it's MPs were elected. I don't. It's irrelevant. The future ballot will decide whether it is.

[martin_p]

He was clearly being sarcy.

And you may genuinely believe that the labour party is honouring the manifesto pledges on Brexit , on which it's MPs were elected. I don't. It's irrelevant. The future ballot will decide whether it is.

It’s not a belief, he’s looking at what they said in their manifesto and comparing it with what they’ve done to reach a conclusion. You should try it sometime.

[RingoMcCartney]

You know Manchester and Greater Manchester aren’t the same thing don’t you?

I’ve asked at least three times now, what has `pivoted` a on a Bercow decision? What exactly would be different? If his role has been pivotal it should be very easy to answer.

Bercow drove a coach and horses through centuries of parliamentary procedural protocol and precedent. Ignoring the advice of his clerks. Refusing to make public that advice.

More recently he said he would "not be bound by precedent"

He's consistently blocked pro Leave amendments and chosen , unilaterally, (something that you incorrectly said he wasn't allowed to do!!!) pro remain amendments instead.

He's hotly tipped to be the first Speaker NOT to receive a peerage due to his biased actions.

He faces an embarrassing vote of no confidence.

Sky's chief political correspondent John Craig said recently, " Bercows role has been pivotal "

Was John Craig , like my good self, right or wrong.

Right



Or


Wrong.?

[RingoMcCartney]

It’s not a belief, he’s looking at what they said in their manifesto and comparing it with what they’ve done to reach a conclusion. You should try it sometime.

Let the ballot box decide.

You should try respecting the results that it produces sometime......

[martin_p]

Bercow drove a coach and horses through centuries of parliamentary procedural protocol and precedent. Ignoring the advice of his clerks. Refusing to make public that advice.

More recently he said he would "not be bound by precedent"

He's consistently blocked pro Leave amendments and chosen , unilaterally, (something that you incorrectly said he wasn't allowed to do!!!) pro remain amendments instead.

He's hotly tipped to be the first Speaker NOT to receive a peerage due to his biased actions.

He faces an embarrassing vote of no confidence.

Sky's chief political correspondent John Craig said recently, " Bercows role has been pivotal "

Was John Craig , like my good self, right or wrong.

Right



Or


Wrong.?

Answer the question, what’s changed? Where would we be up to with Brexit without Bercow? Come on, it can’t be that hard, his role was apparently ‘pivotal’.

Edit - I can’t let the claim that I said Bercow couldn’t block amendments go unchallenged as it’s exactly the opposite of what I said, I.e. he chooses the amendments to be debated.

[RingoMcCartney]

Answer the question, what’s changed? Where would we be up to with Brexit without Bercow? Come on, it can’t be that hard, his role was apparently ‘pivotal’.

Just desperate Marty.

The world and his dog knows my prediction has been proven right and you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it!!

[martin_p]

Let the ballot box decide.

You should try respecting the results that it produces sometime......

I agree, let’s have a second referendum (I assume that’s what you mean).

[martin_p]

Just desperate Marty.

The world and his dog knows my prediction has been proven right and you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it!!

So you can’t answer the question then. Point proved.

[RingoMcCartney]

So you can’t answer the question then. Point proved.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/u ... 2?mode=amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... rustrated/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://mobile.twitter.com/guidofawkes/ ... 33?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html

6 separate sources showing Bercows role to be "pivotal"!

And this was you previously claiming he couldn't pick and choose which amendments he wanted and which to block!

You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Wrongo"

Then admitting he could do exactly that!

He's done exactly what I said he can do, DECIDE on which amendments to allow. If you can link where I’ve said otherwise then feel free.

Bang to rights Marty!

So, once again my mutton headed friend. Has Bercows role been pivotal?

Yes or No?

[aggi]

It has pretty much the same demographic as my golf club, the Peaks when I go walking, my cycling club, the Rotary club, the local pub, etc. Nothing wrong with any of them.

The sly “Brexit voters are racist” dig (which is what it was, let’s be honest) is something where you can, and usually do, do better. The above post was more like one of Imploding Turtles’. You may have honestly meant to imply the Brexit party simply doesn’t have a broad base, but it didn’t come across like that.

There is a reason why a large chunk of the population are going to vote for the Brexit party from now on. It ain’t anything to do with how people feel about different colours and creeds. It’s because they make an honest political choice and are made to feel about 6 inch tall by the intolerant liberal left. History shows that people tend to double down in those situations.

I'll be honest, the first thing that jumped out at me was age rather than anything else. I've posted before how a lot of the Brexit narrative is harking back to years gone by pre-globalisation and wanting to return to that time (look at Ringo blaming the EU for losses of manufacturing jobs for instance) and the demographics of that picture go with that.

You'll struggle to find me saying "Brexit voters are racist". There's clearly a crossover and things like having Tommy Robinson speak at the Brexit protest and the initial Brexit party leader having to quit due to anti-Islamic views don't do anything to dispel that image. To be honest, I think it's a problem that has to be sorted it out but it's a problem for the Brexit party, they're the ones who will be losing the votes.

[aggi]

Good. Then there'll be no need to mention any of the following in the future will there. You wouldn't want to be accused of racism or bigotry would you -



Glad we cleared that up.

The reply above probably covers this as well.

[AndyClaret]

Still all a bit Gammony though Andy

Yep, really, really Gammony.

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/stat ... 2203843585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheFamilyCat]

Yep, really, really Gammony.

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/stat ... 2203843585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can imagine the celebrations in Brexit Party HQ when they saw this. He party poppers will have been going off as they triumphantly shouted “WE’VE GOT A BLACK! WE’VE GOT A BLACK!”

[Lancasterclaret]

Oh Andy, you poor soul

[HatfieldClaret]

So you can’t answer the question then. Point proved.

Bercow changed the 'process' when it suited him. "If processes don't change then nothing changes......" and refused to change the process when it didn't suit him.

He also chose which indicative votes (motions) to put to parliament. Denied MPs the option of leaving by a certain date whatever the circumstances and allowed ones he favoured. Also allegedly connived with Dominic Grieve at the early stages of the indicative votes.

I'd agree that he's been pivotal. Difference of opinion will be whether that was good or bad.

[martin_p]

Bercow changed the 'process' when it suited him. "If processes don't change then nothing changes......" and refused to change the process when it didn't suit him.

He also chose which indicative votes (motions) to put to parliament. Denied MPs the option of leaving by a certain date whatever the circumstances and allowed ones he favoured. Also allegedly connived with Dominic Grieve at the early stages of the indicative votes.

I'd agree that he's been pivotal. Difference of opinion will be whether that was good or bad.

So in what way would things have been different today? Do you think if he’d allowed the ‘Leave by a certain date whatever’ it would have got through the commons given it’s already voted against no deal? He can decide what amendments are voted on, but can’t influence the outcome unless his casting vote is needed. The only time is has been needed in a Brexit related vote he voted against holding more indicative votes. Presumably you haven’t mentioned that as it destroys your narrative.

[martin_p]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/u ... 2?mode=amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... rustrated/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://mobile.twitter.com/guidofawkes/ ... 33?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html

6 separate sources showing Bercows role to be "pivotal"!

And this was you previously claiming he couldn't pick and choose which amendments he wanted and which to block!



Then admitting he could do exactly that!



Bang to rights Marty!

So, once again my mutton headed friend. Has Bercows role been pivotal?

Yes or No?

Stop lying about what you’re said (I’ve challenged you numerous time to link the post where I said what you’ve put in that first quote and you can’t do it) and just answer the question.

[dsr]

I can imagine the celebrations in Brexit Party HQ when they saw this. He party poppers will have been going off as they triumphantly shouted “WE’VE GOT A BLACK! WE’VE GOT A BLACK!”

Is this an attempt to prove that you can be anti-Brexit but still be bigoted?

[Imploding Turtle]

Is this an attempt to prove that you can be anti-Brexit but still be bigoted?

Parodying bigots does not make you a bigot. Just like your life-long parody of an idiot doesn't make you an idiot.

[Lancasterclaret]

Usual thing though.

We'll say "clearly some leave voters are racists bigots"

You'll say "How dare you call all leave voters racists bigots"

We say "Not what I said, its almost like you don't read what we post....oh"

You'll say "HA! 1-0 TO US. WE WON. YOU LOST. GET OVER IT"

And the country slides even further into the sewer.

[TheFamilyCat]

Is this an attempt to prove that you can be anti-Brexit but still be bigoted?

Nah, just a little joke.

But judging by andyclaret using the tweet as some sort of display of diversity within the Brexit Party, maybe there was a slither of truth in there.

[AndyClaret]

And more gammon.

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/stat ... 60192?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HatfieldClaret]

So in what way would things have been different today? Do you think if he’d allowed the ‘Leave by a certain date whatever’ it would have got through the commons given it’s already voted against no deal? He can decide what amendments are voted on, but can’t influence the outcome unless his casting vote is needed. The only time is has been needed in a Brexit related vote he voted against holding more indicative votes. Presumably you haven’t mentioned that as it destroys your narrative.

No narrative Martin

I did remember his casting vote but didn't mention it as I couldn't recall off the top of my head which vote it was.

Just explaining how he has been pivotal. I admit I don't like the chap but everyone is free to make up their own mind.

[AndyClaret]

More gammon incoming!

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/stat ... 14368?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheFamilyCat]

Are you pro-immigration now andyclaretandy?

[AndyClaret]

Are you pro-immigration now andyclaretandy?

Pro controlled immigration, always have been.

[bfcjg]

After the forthcoming elections there could be a very different EU to what we have now, more right wing anti federal MEPs might result in it being more favourable to remain if it goes to another ballot .

[Imploding Turtle]

Pro controlled immigration, always have been.

Which the EU didn't and doesn't prevent.
Do you accept that as true?

[AndyClaret]

Which the EU didn't and doesn't prevent.
Do you accept that as true?

Nope.

[Imploding Turtle]

Nope.

I didn't think you would.

https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The British government retains full control over its own border controls."

[nil_desperandum]

Nope.

And therein lies the root cause of why the country is in such a mess.
People choosing to believe unsubstantiated agenda-driven propaganda rather than actually doing a bit of research, and establishing the true facts.

[Lancasterclaret]

Pretty much everyone is in favour of controlled immigration, which makes it even more weird that the UK Government didn't take advantage of the rules already controlling it within the EU.

[Imploding Turtle]

8,000th post