Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:59 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:https://youtu.be/R9T4dGAxtO0

Yes I've watched that before. It doesn't address the false statements you make.

You said, about a deal

Jakubclaret wrote:I don't think it entered anybody's head & why would it when something hasn't been mentioned if it was going to be a issue it should have been mentioned there & then

I provided you with evidence it was talked about, in great detail prior. I don't care if you agreed with the the quotes or If thing have changed since, I'm not calling you too thick to understand them etc, which is the argument of the above video.

You were saying no one was talking about a deal which is demonstrably untrue.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:07 pm

summitclaret wrote:Suberb speech from Raab as he reluctantly will back deal the deal. Clearly the next PM

"My name's Dominic Raab, I'm a Tory. I don't support the Human Rights Act and I don't believe in economic and social rights" - Dominic Raab

What a guy.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Isn't there a gif form?

There was but... erm... Article 13, EU and all that jazz.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:24 pm

I need to read up on that, cos the Memes are still all over twitter.

Isn't there a "parody" exception or something?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:That would be funny if you were talking the ****. As you are clearly serious its laugh out loud hilarious.

He's changed to try to be PM.

No principles at all. File under JRM and Johnston.

They have been trying to get a proper Brexit ( free trade deal) and have the sense to shift in the hope that they still might if a brexiteer is in charge.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:37 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Yes I've watched that before. It doesn't address the false statements you make.

You said, about a deal

I provided you with evidence it was talked about, in great detail prior. I don't care if you agreed with the the quotes or If thing have changed since, I'm not calling you too thick to understand them etc, which is the argument of the above video.

You were saying no one was talking about a deal which is demonstrably untrue.

Of course it was discussed prior, it wasn't mentioned on the ballot papers i meant, whatever was discussed & not mentioned on the ballot paper had only 2 choices, no additional choices extending onto the remain or leave options, & whatever was discussed prior me personally didn't sway any influence into the decision making process, it's a nice afternoon & i won't be continuing the argument any longer.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:43 pm

summitclaret wrote:They have been trying to get a proper Brexit ( free trade deal) and have the sense to shift in the hope that they still might if a brexiteer is in charge.

The question you need to ask yourself is would he have moved if the PM job wasn't available?

No chance, so his principles are a fraud.

Burnley Ace · Post by **Burnley Ace** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:08 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It simply hasn't worked out to be that way due to the EUs inflexibility, the favourite course of action in my view now would be to simply leave & start out with the WTO, before the referendum it was common knowledge that we wouldn't be getting much change out of them. What the politicians stated previously is at odds with the emerging realities we are faced with now.

When you say EUs inflexibility don’t you understand that it could only be like that? These aren’t “emerging realities” this was and always has been the reality. You were lied to, you fell for the lies and now you are trying to pass it off as a “well it hasn’t quite worked out as we expected”

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:10 pm

Dominic Raab as next PM! It’s like a competition to find the most inept MP in modern times to lead a country.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:29 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Of course it was discussed prior, it wasn't mentioned on the ballot papers i meant, whatever was discussed & not mentioned on the ballot paper had only 2 choices

"What I meant to say was not the thing I originally said".

If we had printed everything that was said on the ballot papers it would be far clearer people were promised many different, mutually exclusive and underliverable things.
Or to put it another way.

Jakubclaret wrote:a multiple choice question consisting of 2 answers

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:44 pm

May's deal rejected again by 58 votes. She may have to give up on this one at some point

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:46 pm

Latest withdrawal rejected, EU meeting to prepare for No-Deal Exit.

MP's are going to argue into a No deal Brexit. All Corban wants is a general election... that they will lose and lose badly.
They simply cannot see outside London.
Watch the new Version of UKip mop up again now.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:46 pm

Deal has to change now surely?

I'm giving up on it without some sort of change. Its pointless.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:47 pm

Her hodgepodge of a split fudge deal has been rejected by a majority of 58.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:47 pm

aggi wrote:May's deal rejected again by 58 votes. She may have to give up on this one at some point

I'm willing to bet she'll try to bring it back next week, though Bercow will demand that there are significant changes.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:48 pm

Oops. I'm a bit late with that.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:48 pm

Her deal was dead of its first outing. Take about flogging a dead horse.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:49 pm

Watch the new Version of UKip mop up again now.

Mop up what?

European elections, yes, but national?

Asking a lot, especially as they are now blatant EDL-lite

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:51 pm

elwaclaret wrote: All Corban wants is a general election... that they will lose and lose badly.
They simply cannot see outside London.
Watch the new Version of UKip mop up again now.

Interesting. So if you are correct then why are the Tories doing everything they can to avoid a General Election?
Due to our voting system only one of two parties can "win", or at least be the largest party, so obviously the Tories don't think that Labour will lose badly. They're absolutely dreading an election because they're impossibly divided.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Deal has to change now surely?

I'm giving up on it without some sort of change. Its pointless.

How can any change help? It's been rejected by the House of Commons because it leans too much towards the EU, and the EU isn't going to change it in our favour, so it's dead.

Our choice now is stay, go, or beg for an extension so that what's gone on over the last two years can be repeated for another two. Option three is pointless. So it's stay or go - and what did the referendum say?

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:53 pm

She's making herself look more of an idiot as each day goes by. What is it with British PMs. Thatcher and Blair ended up all lost at sea and out of touch with reality - May is too, but at least those two spent years in the top job.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:53 pm

Brilliant.

My favourite ridiculous soap opera continues.

Here comes a loooonnnng extension and finally... Brexit will be binned (as predicted, by me, for YEARS!)

HAPPY BREXIT DAY FOLKS!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:54 pm

Dunno Dsr, but remember we are all agreed that a "No Deal" is bad.

We differ on the time scale, but its "bad".

GE or 2nd ref is last resort, and there is broad support for a customs union.

Still a way to go yet.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Mop up what?

European elections, yes, but national?

Asking a lot, especially as they are now blatant EDL-lite

Lancaster, do you really think that UKip would mop up if we have EU elections?
It's a PR type vote and I very much doubt they'll get 50%, and I'm pretty sure Remainers will turn out in large numbers. (We're usually apathetic about these EU elections, but the temperature will be high, and this will be "The People's Vote" that Remainers from Caithness to Land's End have been arguing for, and for which there is growing support.)
I think Change UK will do really well.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:56 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Latest withdrawal rejected, EU meeting to prepare for No-Deal Exit.

MP's are going to argue into a No deal Brexit. All Corban wants is a general election... that they will lose and lose badly.
They simply cannot see outside London.
Watch the new Version of UKip mop up again now.

All you hear from Corbyn is general election,general election.

Like that will solve anything about this sorry mess.

Over to MP'S on Monday now,let's see if they can get a CU vote through the house,or another referendum (yawn).

It shows how bad TM'S deal is that even the ardent brexiteers ,can't bring themselves to vote for it,despite the threat of a softer brexit or no brexit.

Billy Balfour · Post by **Billy Balfour** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:57 pm

BTW: 58 is way more than the govt envisaged.

Also, the DUP have proved to be great allies, haven't they. She stuffed their mouths with gold in order to form a govt with a working majority and all they do is stick two fingers up at her.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:58 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Interesting. So if you are correct then why are the Tories doing everything they can to avoid a General Election?
Due to our voting system only one of two parties can "win", or at least be the largest party, so obviously the Tories don't think that Labour will lose badly. They're absolutely dreading an election because they're impossibly divided.

Farage will be back, Tories will start jumping ship and many will see it as the only option. The two main parties will both get a good hiding for the last three years.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:59 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Lancaster, do you really think that UKip would mop up if we have EU elections?
It's a PR type vote and I very much doubt they'll get 50%, and I'm pretty sure Remainers will turn out in large numbers. (We're usually apathetic about these EU elections, but the temperature will be high, and this will be "The People's Vote" that Remainers from Caithness to Land's End have been arguing for, and for which there is growing support.)
I think Change UK will do really well.

They always do well in them Nil. How well does depends on just how much support for Brexit is out there. If they do really well, then there is still lots of support.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:59 pm

dsr wrote:How can any change help? It's been rejected by the House of Commons because it leans too much towards the EU, and the EU isn't going to change it in our favour, so it's dead.

Our choice now is stay, go, or beg for an extension so that what's gone on over the last two years can be repeated for another two. Option three is pointless. So it's stay or go - and what did the referendum say?

No, our choice is stay or beg for a long extension, go implies a no-deal brexit which isn't an option.

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:59 pm

I think Article 50 will be withdrawn by the end of next week then a general election will be called. Who knows what after that.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:00 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:BTW: 58 is way more than the govt envisaged.

Also, the DUP have proved to be great allies, haven't they. She stuffed their mouths with gold in order to form a govt with a working majority and all they do is stick two fingers up at her.

I know, brilliant isn't it?

What an abject failure as a Prime Minister.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:01 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Farage will be back, Tories will start jumping ship and many will see it as the only option. The two main parties will both get a good hiding for the last three years.

Sorry, but you are not living in the real world with this one.

Farage is despised by 90% of the population, and loved by the 10%. He's Marmite.

Finding a less marmite Farage is the way forward for the UKIPpers. Good luck with that as almost all politicians are toxic at the moment.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:02 pm

dsr wrote:How can any change help? It's been rejected by the House of Commons because it leans too much towards the EU, and the EU isn't going to change it in our favour, so it's dead.

Do you actually take any notice of the reality of the situation and the Maths?
268 MPs voted for Clarke's proposal on Friday, and that was without 10 Lib Dems, the 35 SNPs or the Cabinet. You only have to bolt the customs union onto the withdrawal agreement, (with cabinet support, which it would get in the main), and the Withdrawal Bill would absolutely sail through.
Only 235 voted against CU option and it's hard to see that number going up very much next week.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:03 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:No, our choice is stay or beg for a long extension, go implies a no-deal brexit which isn't an option.

If its not an option, why is France among others saying we deserve no further time. Far from NO deal being not an option.... why is the EU currently in emergency meetings preparing for it then?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:They always do well in them Nil. How well does depends on just how much support for Brexit is out there. If they do really well, then there is still lots of support.

Agreed but (as I implied) surely that's because the anti-EU fanatics always turn out for these elections to register theri "protest" and remainers are usually apathetic. That won't be the case this time.
Anyway it's a moot point as I don't think we'll be required to have these elections at this point.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:05 pm

No one wants a "No Deal" though.

Not going to go into it again, but your average bloke can say it will be fine all they like, the reality is staring governments in the face.

But it would have to be a long extension this time and EU elections.

And of course, the EU might say no, which means either revoke or No Deal.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:06 pm

elwaclaret wrote:If its not an option, why is France among others saying we deserve no further time. Far from NO deal being not an option.... why is the EU currently in emergency meetings preparing for it then?

Because it scared (with good reason) that the UK government is so incompetent it will let it happen ‘by accident’. The EU doesn’t have control over the situation, the UK could leave on 12th with no deal if it didn’t agree to do something different beforehand.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:06 pm

elwaclaret wrote:If its not an option, why is France among others saying we deserve no further time. Far from NO deal being not an option.... why is the EU currently in emergency meetings preparing for it then?

Why do you think?
Do you not understand how politics and negotiations work?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:07 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:No, our choice is stay or beg for a long extension, go implies a no-deal brexit which isn't an option.

The more MPs go against the people, the more they will dig in and go for No deal.

Let's have that 2nd referendum and get No deal passed.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:08 pm

Only 7 Lab MPs rebelled.

They can sense a GE or a custom union Brexit.

May has to change or risk it all on a GE.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:09 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Do you actually take any notice of the reality of the situation and the Maths?
268 MPs voted for Clarke's proposal on Friday, and that was without 10 Lib Dems, the 35 SNPs or the Cabinet. You only have to bolt the customs union onto the withdrawal agreement, (with cabinet support, which it would get in the main), and the Withdrawal Bill would absolutely sail through.
Only 235 voted against CU option and it's hard to see that number going up very much next week.

If any of the cabinet vote for a CU they will have to resign. They might but in doing so they will see the end of the tory party.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Only 7 Lab MPs rebelled.

They can sense a GE or a custom union Brexit.

May has to change or risk it all on a GE.

Which is only four more than last time.

JRM and Johnson must be feeling a bit sick. And if the Brexiteers do get into power I would suggest not making JRM Secretary of State for Northern Ireland!

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:11 pm

summitclaret wrote:If any of the cabinet vote for a CU they will have to resign. They might but in doing so they will see the end of the tory party.

Why? The government will now have to get real and get behind one of the alternative option themselves.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:12 pm

martin_p wrote:Which is only four more than last time.

JRM and Johnson must be feeling a bit sick. And if the Brexiteers do get into power I would suggest not making JRM Secretary of State for Northern Ireland!

They wouldn't be bothered. They only changed to become the PM. Its an absolute shitshow and Mays every move is making it worse.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:14 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Why do you think?
Do you not understand how politics and negotiations work?

No, no idea

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Farage is despised by 90% of the population, and loved by the 10%. He's Marmite.

UKIP won 27% of the vote at the last EU elections. Presumably a lot of people who despise him were willing to vote for him.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:14 pm

martin_p wrote:Because it scared (with good reason) that the UK government is so incompetent it will let it happen ‘by accident’. The EU doesn’t have control over the situation, the UK could leave on 12th with no deal if it didn’t agree to do something different beforehand.

Don't agree with that Martin. Isn't it just the case that they're trying to demonstrate that they're strong and prepared for "No deal", and we aren't. So effectively they're simply reaffirming that they're not going to fold, and saying "you walk away if you want, we'll be ok"

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:16 pm

UKIP won 27% of the vote at the last EU elections. Presumably a lot of people who despise him were willing to vote for him.

General Elections they have never won more than 10%.

And that was when Farage was in his prime. He's certainly not there now.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:17 pm

martin_p wrote:Why? The government will now have to get real and get behind one of the alternative option themselves.

You can hope but why would they? The people hace been betrayed today.

I would gamble now if i was PM on a referundum

Do you back this deal yes or no with no remain option.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:18 pm

dsr wrote:UKIP won 27% of the vote at the last EU elections. Presumably a lot of people who despise him were willing to vote for him.

On a very low turn out. (Without checking about 35%)
It got about 4 million. It will need to get a lot more than that to be ahead of pro-EU votes this time, and apparently a lot of leavers are never going to vote again, so that won't help their cause.