So the Tories believe there is more going on than we know about. How do they know then? And if they do know what we don’t know, why have they not given us their evidence?Lowbankclaret wrote:Depends how much cheating you believe is going on.
I believe it’s more widespread than we know. But the main aim has to be fair and honest elections.
Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
How did the other 1.8m people open bank accounts with no photo I.D?Devils_Advocate wrote:Its estimated around 3.5 million citizens do not have access to Photo ID
11m do not have passports
1.7m do not have a bank account
Ok we already know, the estimates have been exaggerated to fuel their agenda.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
That last line is so true about voter fraud.Quickenthetempo wrote:How did the other 1.8m people open bank accounts with no photo I.D?
Ok we already know, the estimates have been exaggerated to fuel their agenda.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lowbankclaret wrote:Is there a link to provide evidence as that’s a good step forward.
https://twitter.com/CitizenCard/status/ ... 71361?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Aside from the fact that this wasn't even supposed to be a wall but a glittering open gate, why don't you at least engage with one specific mechanisms of trade to see what a no brexit does to it? Your school of thought seems to be "Regardless of the consequence I believe in Brexit - we'll sort it" rather than "I believe this is an opportunity for the UK, and here's why" You say remainers are "ingrained with one way of thinking", but I don't see any solutions being offered to the problems remainers are posing. There should be answers right? Where are they?Jakubclaret wrote:As I've said before, businesses will always find a way through a wall whether it's over or under or around it or even through it by bolstering the brickwork, I'm glad you've used that example, the point you fail to see is that various methods can be used to pass the wall it isn't impenetrable, using 1 method is a narrow way of thinking a trait remainers are ingrained with, regarding deregulation I'll answer that later I'm pressed for time with working a late shift.
Let's take one issue. What about the implications of just in time production systems being decimated, for example? There are deeply embedded supply chains that thousands of UK businesses depend on; supply chains that cross several borders across the EU. Free trade is NOT frictionless trade. Extra custom checks and delays, along with the fact that it involves huge infrastructure changes and systems (lots of lovely new paperwork that HAS to be right, and often isn't, resulting in more delays) This has a massive impact on importers and exporters. One examples from Honda UK: The Japanese-owned firm stated that every 15 minutes of customs delay would cost it up to £850,000 a year, and that it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union. Even then, with 2m daily component movements, just minor delays at the Channel Tunnel and Dover would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.
Last edited by willsclarets on Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Maybe, but seeing as nobody has ever fully checked a full polling station, never mind full election we will never know.Lancasterclaret wrote:That last line is so true about voter fraud.
For everyone caught doing something wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar 15 don't get caught doing it.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I'd say it's a pretty standard definition. If you have a clean break from something/someone you don't continue interacting with them.dsr wrote:That's a strange definition of a "clean break". I would take "clean break" to mean that the UK and the EU are fully independent and not subject to each other's laws (except to the extent that they mutually agree). Your version is devoid of all common sense, and I'm sure it's not what quickenthetempo meant.
I think the version that is devoid of all common sense is the concept that we can suddenly disentangle ourselves from our biggest trade partner with minimal repercussions (and that although we've had this "clean break" and have limited alignment we'll still happily be trading away with them).
The concept that a clean break or No Deal or whatever you want to call it will just solve all of the issues we're struggling with in negotiations and they'll just go away and we will happily sign a trade deal with the EU is ludicrous.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Jakubclaret wrote:It really is that simple, I think sometimes well a lot the situation becomes cloudy for you in terms of overthinking & seeing problems that aren't there, if you pause & think logically in a common sense manner obstacles which present themselves can be overcome by adapting & utilising our resources, the trading marketplace will still thrive even more so without suffocating regulatory alignment, it'd be a position of our own choosing the way we conduct business & would encourage innovative enterprise.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Banks nowadays take alternative forms of idea such as Student ID, benefits letter, letter from Social Worker or Docter or Probation Officer for exampleQuickenthetempo wrote:How did the other 1.8m people open bank accounts with no photo I.D?
Ok we already know, the estimates have been exaggerated to fuel their agenda.
Different banks have different rules
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I imagine many of them have historic accounts from a period where KYC regulations weren't as strict or the ID has expired or been lost or a fair few banks accept HMRC correspondence (which obviously has no picture). I know a fair few people who have lived in the same house for the past twenty years, haven't changed their bank, have a paper driving licence and no passport for instance.Quickenthetempo wrote:How did the other 1.8m people open bank accounts with no photo I.D?
Ok we already know, the estimates have been exaggerated to fuel their agenda.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Chance of an election this year?
NEW: Understand civil service chief Sir Mark Sedwill has advised No10 that it would be virtually impossible to hold an election this year any later than 12th Dec. After that practicalities are horrendous - school halls etc booked up for Christmas so no space for polling booths.
NEW: Understand civil service chief Sir Mark Sedwill has advised No10 that it would be virtually impossible to hold an election this year any later than 12th Dec. After that practicalities are horrendous - school halls etc booked up for Christmas so no space for polling booths.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Really? So in a clean break divorce, for example, not only do the parties unequivocally separate their financial arrangements, they agree never to meet, never to talk, never to have any business with each other at all? Must be tricky if they have relatives in common, eg. grown-up children.aggi wrote:I'd say it's a pretty standard definition. If you have a clean break from something/someone you don't continue interacting with them.
I think the version that is devoid of all common sense is the concept that we can suddenly disentangle ourselves from our biggest trade partner with minimal repercussions (and that although we've had this "clean break" and have limited alignment we'll still happily be trading away with them).
The concept that a clean break or No Deal or whatever you want to call it will just solve all of the issues we're struggling with in negotiations and they'll just go away and we will happily sign a trade deal with the EU is ludicrous.
I think a "clean break" means that the current financial mutual dependency is severed. Not that all communication ceases.
If Mrs. Guinness has a clean break divorce from Mr Guinness, is she banned from drinking any of his product?
Anyway, regardless of all that, are you saying that you genuinely thought that Quickenthetempo was proposing ending all trade with EU countries?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I know plenty of people who are in benefits, they afford Fags, dope and beer.Devils_Advocate wrote:Its estimated around 3.5 million citizens do not have access to Photo ID
11m do not have passports
1.7m do not have a bank account
Allowing the use of non-photographic (and easily-forgeable) ID such as utility bills would mean the change could actually do more harm than good – making it harder to vote for honest voters, while not tackling any of the alleged problems.
Please tell me the size of the problem we are trying to tackle here and why the Tory's are going to this effort if its not just voter suppression. As I said in my first post in person voter fraud is virtually non existence and it will put up far more barriers to genuine voters rather than reducing voter fraud
As for your final point Lowbank £15 is a lot of money to some people and not only that but people whose life are chaotic and immensely tough at the best of times are going to struggle with the effort needed not only to budget for the money but to organise themselves to apply.
You might scoff at these people and their lives but the point is the right to vote should be equal for everyone and should be made as simple and easy as possible whilst doing all we can to minimise voter fraud.
Why dont the Tory's go and spend some real time and effort tackling the foreign country's that subvert our election process - though to be fair the answer to this is obvious
If they don’t want to spend £15 on an ID card that’s up to them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Vote fraudsters convicted in Derby.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-23461729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-d ... e-23461729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RMutt wrote:So the Tories believe there is more going on than we know about. How do they know then? And if they do know what we don’t know, why have they not given us their evidence?
Takes me back to the Crime episode of Brass Eye
“So much for recorded crimes but crimes we know nothing about are going up as well.
What hope do we have of battering these down? The Home Secretary scores repeated own goals.
Over 1,200 convicts were released last month after lying to the Home Office about how long they'd been inside.
And just two days ago, it was revealed that convicts in Dartmoor Prison had been running an international airport for over 14 years”
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
What about postal votes?Lowbankclaret wrote:I know plenty of people who are in benefits, they afford Fags, dope and beer.
If they don’t want to spend £15 on an ID card that’s up to them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
And I know plenty of Polish people who wouldn't dream of robbing fish out a lake so whats your point?Lowbankclaret wrote:I know plenty of people who are in benefits, they afford Fags, dope and beer.
If they don’t want to spend £15 on an ID card that’s up to them.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1571151980" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Customs border down the Irish Sea
No acceptable to Mrs May, but acceptable to Mr Johnson.
Interesting.
In short, the solution that everyone knew was possible, but that effectively sells out the DUP (which everyone knew would happen)
Customs border down the Irish Sea
No acceptable to Mrs May, but acceptable to Mr Johnson.
Interesting.
In short, the solution that everyone knew was possible, but that effectively sells out the DUP (which everyone knew would happen)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
"Northern Ireland will still legally be within the UK’s customs territory."Lancasterclaret wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1571151980
Customs border down the Irish Sea
No acceptable to Mrs May, but acceptable to Mr Johnson.
Interesting.
In short, the solution that everyone knew was possible, but that effectively sells out the DUP (which everyone knew would happen)
The DUP met Boris last night, he will know their red lines.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
If it looks like a customs border and it's enforced like a customs border......it is a customs border.AndyClaret wrote:"Northern Ireland will still legally be within the UK’s customs territory."
The DUP met Boris last night, he will know their red lines.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It’s Johnson’s very own surrender bill. Cost? Pffft, just 1.8 Million fellow citizens.AndyClaret wrote:"Northern Ireland will still legally be within the UK’s customs territory."
The DUP met Boris last night, he will know their red lines.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Are you telling me there are people who've had a paper driving licence since 1998 and it's still legible?aggi wrote:I imagine many of them have historic accounts from a period where KYC regulations weren't as strict or the ID has expired or been lost or a fair few banks accept HMRC correspondence (which obviously has no picture). I know a fair few people who have lived in the same house for the past twenty years, haven't changed their bank, have a paper driving licence and no passport for instance.
I'm impressed.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The bit that intrigues me is this bit, if anyone can enlighten me I'd appreciate it - "Under the new thinking, a majority of both nationalists and unionists would need to give consent at a point later in time."AndyClaret wrote:"Northern Ireland will still legally be within the UK’s customs territory."
The DUP met Boris last night, he will know their red lines.
What does this mean?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
RMutt wrote:So the Tories believe there is more going on than we know about. How do they know then? And if they do know what we don’t know, why have they not given us their evidence?
I cannot even pick up a parcel at the post office without photo ID.
Who really cares how much of it is going on.
As has been pointed out there is also a free ID card, so all complaints are completely unjustified.
Honest elections are a must have in a free voting society.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Spijed wrote:What about postal votes?
Personally they would only be allowed in exceptional circumstances.
The Tory bill will make it illegal for party members to collect up postal votes, but I would go further.
Any request for a postal vote would have to be signed by a doctor, a police officer or a serving military officer.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
U.K. Business, astride the unicorn of sunlit uplands, and brandishing the pneumatic drill of pluck, and wearing the yellow vest of vim. Charges gallantly at the fifteen foot wall, emitting the battle cry of “Blitz Spirit!”Jakubclaret wrote:As I've said before, businesses will always find a way through a wall whether it's over or under or around it or even through it by bolstering the brickwork, I'm glad you've used that example, the point you fail to see is that various methods can be used to pass the wall it isn't impenetrable, using 1 method is a narrow way of thinking a trait remainers are ingrained with, regarding deregulation I'll answer that later I'm pressed for time with working a late shift.
Most business people are fairly cautious (those who aren’t are either very lucky, or make up the bulk of the thirty percent of businesses that fail within the first year or two of operation). They’ll look to minimise risk, so not expand, perhaps scale back, hunker down and try to ride it out. If they strongly believe a no deal will hit their business hard, they might look to wind it up - take as much cash out of it as they can and allow it to fold, leaving other businesses with unpaid bills. If they can see opportunities, absolutely they’ll go for them, but so far it only seems to be the vulture capitalists who are rubbing their hands together. Business owners do not think; “how could I utilise my business assets for the greater good of my country?” Because most of them think running their business responsibly for themselves is in itself for the greater good of the country.
I know you don’t believe me, and might think I’m being negative or alarmist, so let’s go back to my original argument. You are put in a compound surrounded by a fifteen foot wall. With all the time in the world, you will find a way out of it. But if I tell you a tiger will join you in that compound the next day, most of your mental energy will end up thinking of how to deal with the tiger.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Devils_Advocate wrote:And I know plenty of Polish people who wouldn't dream of robbing fish out a lake so whats your point?
It irreverent now as its been pointed out you can get one for free.
No excuses for not having ID to vote.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lancasterclaret wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1571151980
Customs border down the Irish Sea
No acceptable to Mrs May, but acceptable to Mr Johnson.
Interesting.
In short, the solution that everyone knew was possible, but that effectively sells out the DUP (which everyone knew would happen)
Parliament will still vote it down, just because they can!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
ERG on board....
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status ... 1454074880" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status ... 1454074880" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Sounds like the “threatening the union” reason for May’s resistance is the thing that may have to give. That was always going to be the case. Many of us have long since written on here that it would be either EU Customs Union (May chose that in essence) or a border down the Irish Sea.
So the key is whether the ERG vote for it. The DUP will probably vote against. As will maybe half a dozen pro-Remain Tories (Stewart, Grieve etc). That means that Johnson will need around 20 other MPs voting for it - people like Stephen Kinnock.
I expect him to lose the vote narrowly and mass uncertainty will set in again. If anyone has any foreign currency needing buying before a holiday, now may be the time to do it, Sterling could open much lower on Monday morning.
So the key is whether the ERG vote for it. The DUP will probably vote against. As will maybe half a dozen pro-Remain Tories (Stewart, Grieve etc). That means that Johnson will need around 20 other MPs voting for it - people like Stephen Kinnock.
I expect him to lose the vote narrowly and mass uncertainty will set in again. If anyone has any foreign currency needing buying before a holiday, now may be the time to do it, Sterling could open much lower on Monday morning.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
ERG join Johnson’s appeasement movement and agree to his surrender bill.AndyClaret wrote:ERG on board....
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status ... 1454074880" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
[quote="Lancasterclaret"]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1571151980
We have spoken before on the issue of the Middle East.
I think it’s relevant as this is going to impact us just as much if not more than Brexit.
I spoke about Zeihan’ thighs on the Middle East which looks very dangerously like it’s going to become fact.
America pulling out of the region was going lead to war in the ME. Your thoughts were Trump was going to go to war, mine were he was going to pull away from the area and just let the, get on with it.
It’s not fact but looks like Iran fired missiles at SA oil refineries and SA have fired missiles on an Iranian tanker.
Turkey have invaded Syria ( that’s a fact) to kill the Kurds.
The Kurds have have it would seem done a deal with Assad.
You need to watch none uk news to find out this, but Iraq is on the verge of civil war again as are some of its neighbours.
War is coming, with it very increased petrol prices. I suggest Trump is going walk away and leave em to it. As will NATO and the EU.
We have spoken before on the issue of the Middle East.
I think it’s relevant as this is going to impact us just as much if not more than Brexit.
I spoke about Zeihan’ thighs on the Middle East which looks very dangerously like it’s going to become fact.
America pulling out of the region was going lead to war in the ME. Your thoughts were Trump was going to go to war, mine were he was going to pull away from the area and just let the, get on with it.
It’s not fact but looks like Iran fired missiles at SA oil refineries and SA have fired missiles on an Iranian tanker.
Turkey have invaded Syria ( that’s a fact) to kill the Kurds.
The Kurds have have it would seem done a deal with Assad.
You need to watch none uk news to find out this, but Iraq is on the verge of civil war again as are some of its neighbours.
War is coming, with it very increased petrol prices. I suggest Trump is going walk away and leave em to it. As will NATO and the EU.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It’s a climb down from May’s deal, leaving 1.8 million citizens outside our perfect Brexit future. If this is the price Johnson is willing to pay to keep his impossible promise, then how important to him are the people of Burnley and it’s wider area?CrosspoolClarets wrote:Sounds like the “threatening the union” reason for May’s resistance is the thing that may have to give. That was always going to be the case. Many of us have long since written on here that it would be either EU Customs Union (May chose that in essence) or a border down the Irish Sea.
So the key is whether the ERG vote for it. The DUP will probably vote against. As will maybe half a dozen pro-Remain Tories (Stewart, Grieve etc). That means that Johnson will need around 20 other MPs voting for it - people like Stephen Kinnock.
I expect him to lose the vote narrowly and mass uncertainty will set in again. If anyone has any foreign currency needing buying before a holiday, now may be the time to do it, Sterling could open much lower on Monday morning.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Let’s make it as hard as possible for people to vote.Lowbankclaret wrote:Personally they would only be allowed in exceptional circumstances.
The Tory bill will make it illegal for party members to collect up postal votes, but I would go further.
Any request for a postal vote would have to be signed by a doctor, a police officer or a serving military officer.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
You set yourself a deadline and you end up having to give concessions left, right and centre to achieve it.AndrewJB wrote:ERG join Johnson’s appeasement movement and agree to his surrender bill.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Yep really hard, you walk up to your polling station, show your ID, which is free. And vote. As easy as it is today without ID. a very large percentage cannot be arsed.martin_p wrote:Let’s make it as hard as possible for people to vote.
You need to apply for a postal vote now, if you cannot be arsed to get it signed, then you don’t deserve to be getting a vote.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Why?Lowbankclaret wrote:Yep really hard, you walk up to your polling station, show your ID, which is free. And vote. As easy as it is today without ID. a very large percentage cannot be arsed.
You need to apply for a postal vote now, if you cannot be arsed to get it signed, then you don’t deserve to be getting a vote.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
More people voted in the EU referendum then did in the GE before it and even then about a 3rd of those eligible didn't bother.martin_p wrote:Let’s make it as hard as possible for people to vote.
It isn't about making anything harder, just ensuring those who vote are doing so once and are eligible to do so.
Maybe the bigger concern should be the millions who rarely, if ever, vote in GE's and finding out why they don't.
Out of interest does anyone know how many of the 11 million with no photo ID actually vote?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Me thinks your just being argumentative for the sake of it.martin_p wrote:Why?
As easy as it is now many don’t bother, but it makes it easy for vote rigging.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Everyone deserves the right to vote. The government should make this as easy as possible, whether homeless person or lord. As far as fraud is concerned, we should fight it in every way we can, which should include advertising on social media outside our current election laws.Lowbankclaret wrote:Yep really hard, you walk up to your polling station, show your ID, which is free. And vote. As easy as it is today without ID. a very large percentage cannot be arsed.
You need to apply for a postal vote now, if you cannot be arsed to get it signed, then you don’t deserve to be getting a vote.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I’m not being argumentative. I’m asking why someone should lose their vote if they can’t be arsed to find one of the people you mention to sign their postal vote application?Lowbankclaret wrote:Me thinks your just being argumentative for the sake of it.
As easy as it is now many don’t bother, but it makes it easy for vote rigging.
Given the number of people that don’t vote already why is making it harder a good idea?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Unfortunately homeless people cannot vote.AndrewJB wrote:Everyone deserves the right to vote. The government should make this as easy as possible, whether homeless person or lord. As far as fraud is concerned, we should fight it in every way we can, which should include advertising on social media outside our current election laws.
You need to be on the electoral role at an address to be able to vote.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The Brexit Party showed exactly what they think about protecting the integrity and legitimacy of elections and democracy in the EU Parliament last week.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Is that a good thing? A desirable thing? What we want? Is it democracy?Lowbankclaret wrote:Unfortunately homeless people cannot vote.
You need to be on the electoral role at an address to be able to vote.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
AndrewJB wrote:Is that a good thing? A desirable thing? What we want? Is it democracy?
Just stating the facts as they are today?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Devils_Advocate wrote:The Brexit Party showed exactly what they think about protecting the integrity and legitimacy of elections and democracy in the EU Parliament last week.
What did I miss.
And don’t forget the EU is not democratic.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
What facts?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Three things:AndrewJB wrote:It’s a climb down from May’s deal, leaving 1.8 million citizens outside our perfect Brexit future. If this is the price Johnson is willing to pay to keep his impossible promise, then how important to him are the people of Burnley and it’s wider area?
Firstly, NI voted to Remain. While that doesn’t give them a right to because it was the wider UK vote that matters, it does give the PM a moral reason to leave them in the EU Customs Union. Given that Sinn Fein don’t vote, it is braver for the PM to do this rather than just court the DUP votes.
Secondly, we don’t know if they will be in the CU, or if it is a fudge to allow all sides to save face.
Thirdly, this could be the only possible deal that still leads to a real Brexit for GB at least. If so, he has little choice. Obviously Remain isn’t a choice, that question has already been settled, as has May’s closer deal.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Mark Francois not happy.
Might be good news for the rest of us.
Might be good news for the rest of us.